http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBGheK4syEI
Waltz @ 1:10, Flourish @ 2:15
Time to speculate ... though the Waltz is almost certainly Curing Waltz V.
I'm hoping that the Waltzes are either split into two categories, or are rebalanced so that Waltz V has the current IV timer, and IV is reduced to 12 seconds or so. Or something like that.
I'm not sure what to make of the flourish yet. Something flashy, though.
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New Waltz, New FlourishFollow
Am I incorrect in thinking that looks almost exactly like Trance...?
RDM BLM DNC DRK WHM
Like attracts like.
Like attracts like.
Secretkeeper wrote:
Am I incorrect in thinking that looks almost exactly like Trance...?
Quote:
Striking Flourish (DNC Lv.89 Ability Delay: 2 min. Effect Duration: 1 min.)
Allows you to deliver a twofold attack. Requires at least one finishing move.
Allows you to deliver a twofold attack. Requires at least one finishing move.
and every warrior with capped warrior's charge merits began to weep
Theytak, Siren Server
LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!
Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!
Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O
Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
Lady Jinte wrote:
Secretkeeper wrote:
Am I incorrect in thinking that looks almost exactly like Trance...?
Quote:
Striking Flourish (DNC Lv.89 Ability Delay: 2 min. Effect Duration: 1 min.)
Allows you to deliver a twofold attack. Requires at least one finishing move.
Allows you to deliver a twofold attack. Requires at least one finishing move.
and every warrior with capped warrior's charge merits began to weep
Except spending 2secs for the JA, would have resulted in 1-2 more attacks anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding this. Helps War more since thier weapon delay is much greater. (time for JA vs time for swing)
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.
There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
I'm curiou as to what "twofold attack" means...is it just double damage of a regular hit or can it be applied to WSs too?
And what would be the incentive of using this over CF?
Guess we will find out next week...
Edit: actually, it says at least 1 FM to use meaning with 5 we could possibly get 5 extra hits worth of damage...nice but the same problem comes up as with CF...those FMs are probably better spent by just reversing them and self SCing...
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 11:12am by Kalisa
And what would be the incentive of using this over CF?
Guess we will find out next week...
Edit: actually, it says at least 1 FM to use meaning with 5 we could possibly get 5 extra hits worth of damage...nice but the same problem comes up as with CF...those FMs are probably better spent by just reversing them and self SCing...
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 11:12am by Kalisa
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75
lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
I imagine it is a forced double attack, as Jinte suggested. I suppose it would be fairly nifty for a big number WS (assuming it falls under Flourishes III, you could mess around with Striking and Building), but really you'd just use Reverse. Could also be a way of gaining more TP/damage (depending on how FMs play out) if you need to hold TP, but, again, you'd probably just use the TP and Reverse...
Guess we'll find out soon enough.
Oh! And let's not forget the 23 second delay on Waltz V! :x If our waltzing abilities continue to be hindered under the universal timer, or if other ways are not introduced through which this becomes less of a problem, I don't see us using this very often, if at all.
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper
Guess we'll find out soon enough.
Oh! And let's not forget the 23 second delay on Waltz V! :x If our waltzing abilities continue to be hindered under the universal timer, or if other ways are not introduced through which this becomes less of a problem, I don't see us using this very often, if at all.
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper
RDM BLM DNC DRK WHM
Like attracts like.
Like attracts like.
Supposedly French and German notes specify that it's a double attack. They also say that it will take 2 Finishing moves.
I don't foresee this being useful in the least. Saber Dance 5/5 already gives us a 27% Double Attack rate, so forcing a Double Attack only gives you +.73 Attacks and costs you a potential 10 TP on your Reverse Flourish. This sounds at least as worthless as Climactic Flourish.
Obviously Curing Waltz V will be worthless unless they split the recast timers Even/Odd. We're limited by JA delay, our TP gain, and people getting one-shotted anyway.
I don't foresee this being useful in the least. Saber Dance 5/5 already gives us a 27% Double Attack rate, so forcing a Double Attack only gives you +.73 Attacks and costs you a potential 10 TP on your Reverse Flourish. This sounds at least as worthless as Climactic Flourish.
Obviously Curing Waltz V will be worthless unless they split the recast timers Even/Odd. We're limited by JA delay, our TP gain, and people getting one-shotted anyway.
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Quote:
Obviously Curing Waltz V will be worthless unless they split the recast timers Even/Odd. We're limited by JA delay, our TP gain, and people getting one-shotted anyway.
Highly doubt they will ever split the timers since that will pretty much make us the best healers in the game. They should at least give us more -waltz timer gear so that we can make CW4 the new 3 and just roll with that.
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75
lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
I'm curious how effective this waltz will be as an enmity tool.
I don't really think it would. If we got split odd/even, we could C5 every 15 seconds and C6 every 21 seconds. WHM can C5 every ~7 seconds and C6 every ~10 seconds. Assuming infinite TP and MP, they win. Not to mention that they totally win on status removal (Healing Waltz' recast is ridiculous) and their Cures give Stoneskin. In Abyssea, 30MP/tick for WHM would be pretty reasonable. Cures cost about 25% less thanks to WHM AF3+2 pants.
Splitting waltzes would just make DNC a viable healer in Abyssea.
Splitting waltzes would just make DNC a viable healer in Abyssea.
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Scholar
31 posts
I find both our new ja's kinda meh, and who else is a little ticked about cor getting regain. (yes its a roll, but i was hopefull dnc would get something like it since we live off our tp)
Quote:
CoalHeart wrote: IMHO WHM/BST is sex wrapped in bacon and drenched with chocolate. Your mileage may vary.
Quote:
Pawkeshup wrote: Typical SE.
Dev 1: The player base are gaining EXP, and progressing at a somewhat adequate pace
Dev 2: This is an OUTRAGE! NERF IT! NERF IT TO HELL!!
Dev 1: The player base are gaining EXP, and progressing at a somewhat adequate pace
Dev 2: This is an OUTRAGE! NERF IT! NERF IT TO HELL!!
84 Dnc, 75 Whm: If it bleeds, I can cure it!!
Calessa wrote:
I'm curious how effective this waltz will be as an enmity tool.
W3 spam is likely better CE gain over time, not to mention it's small enough to work from a curecheat without giving up +enmity/potency if that's really your goal.
Secretkeeper wrote:
I imagine it is a forced double attack, as Jinte suggested.
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper
I wander how that would stack with Saber Dance if it's up.
If Striking Flourish is a "Double Attack"
That just sounds like a add-on to Saber Dance (but a flourish)
Haste Samba
Saber Dance
Striking Flourish (if it's double attack)
Would make nice TP gain :P
Quote:
who else is a little ticked about cor getting regain
Personally, I think abyssea atmas really hurt the power of cor rolls (ie easier to cap ratio/acc and cor roll means squat). Additionally the last rolls they got are mostly worthless (weapon delay is trash) and thier DD ability has been greatly compromised with joytoy still being thier best melee weapon while everyone else has moved on.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 9:24am by doctorugh
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.
There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
For buffing DDs, even COR/WHM is better than a second Bard in Abyssea (Fighter's, Rogue's, Samurai, and Chaos). Depending on potency, the Regain roll may not even be worth using in a pure DD-sense. In a situation where I'm not using Stalwart's in Abyssea, Berserk increases my normal hit (26% of swings) damage by 25% and my crits (74% of swings) damage by ~13%. Double Minuets or Chaos Roll are going to do less for me than Berserk. Giving me a 100% Crit rate through Rogue's Roll would devalue attack further (push everything to the +13% range), as would finding someone who keys Temp Item chests. Extra Double Attack from Fighter's (hopefully with a WAR in party) would be the icing on the cake. However...
COR lacks AoE sleep and a productive way to pull. That's why having a second Bard singing Minuets is better. Killspeed is limited by pullspeed. I've had parties where I spend less than half the time engaged because pullspeed is so low.
Edit: Also, COR uses Joyeuse to build TP for Slugshot (or Wildfire), and they have gotten access magian guns.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 11:29am by Byrthnoth
COR lacks AoE sleep and a productive way to pull. That's why having a second Bard singing Minuets is better. Killspeed is limited by pullspeed. I've had parties where I spend less than half the time engaged because pullspeed is so low.
Edit: Also, COR uses Joyeuse to build TP for Slugshot (or Wildfire), and they have gotten access magian guns.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 11:29am by Byrthnoth
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Darkzeru wrote:
Secretkeeper wrote:
I imagine it is a forced double attack, as Jinte suggested.
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper
I wander how that would stack with Saber Dance if it's up.
If Striking Flourish is a "Double Attack"
That just sounds like a add-on to Saber Dance (but a flourish)
Haste Samba
Saber Dance
Striking Flourish (if it's double attack)
Would make nice TP gain :P
Spending those FMs on Reverse Flourish would be even better TP gain. Maybe the ~3 people out there with Terp can make something of this, but from where I'm sitting it'll just be another move that wastes FMs.
Quote:
Splitting waltzes would just make DNC a viable healer in Abyssea.
And splitting BPs would make SMN a viable debuffer. But SE doesn't want jobs to be viable alternatives. They want jobs to be cumbersome and awkward.
I've personally felt that Waltz IV is very difficult to find any use outside of healing unweakened people. III just has such a better recast rate. But I have no delusions that SE would ever attempt to make new content useful, since all they care about is being able to hype updates with words.
But I do agree. It is just bullsh*t that a job using limited points should require timed restrictions. It is about as clever as making a 60 seconds delay on weapon skills, even though they already were limited by TP. (Though haste has more or less removed that restriction these days)
Sometimes I think SE bases their view of balance from monsters. If a monster only can cast every 40 seconds, then why should a spirit or puppet cast much faster? Except they miss the whole point that a BLM or RDM doesn't have 40 seconds delays, and it would make more sense to balance jobs, than balance monsters and players randomly.
At the very bottom of the most recent update notes SE did mention that they were going back to some previous job abilities and changing them. They may very well be putting the Waltzes into a tiered system, which I think would be fair adjustment.
Or they could give DNC a job ability or a piece of gear (AF3 body) that eats a finishing move or two that then enables another usage of a Waltz.
By the way, I'm calling that the AF3 hands will lower Waltz timers by 5-10 seconds. You heard it here first.
Or they could give DNC a job ability or a piece of gear (AF3 body) that eats a finishing move or two that then enables another usage of a Waltz.
By the way, I'm calling that the AF3 hands will lower Waltz timers by 5-10 seconds. You heard it here first.
WHM90 - DNC90
Quote:
- The level at which the dancer ability "Curing Waltz III" is acquired will be lowered from 50 to 45.
like the loss of haste samba to /dnc @90 wasn't enough >.>
is it worth playing dnc anymore beside soloing/eva tanking ?
5% more haste and swords dance say hi
February 11, 1926 – November 28, 2010
Leslie Nielsen. Shirley, he will be missed.
DarkBiBi wrote:
+5% haste samba, that is now considered useless for dual-weilder anyway thanks to delay cap
What's the Dual-wield cap at?
I see DNC getting Dual Wield V soon......
DNC has been following a weird road ever since its conception. The main problem is that SE has treated curing waltzes like cure spells. It's okay to make higher level cure spells cost more MP because a mage's MP pool is also going up and more refresh becomes available. But DNC has a harder time acumulating mass TP for sustained healing in harder fights. Things like Reverse Flourish and No Foot Rise and Presto help a LOT, but ultimately there's like little spikes that are hard to sustain because of the 300% TP cap and no constant source of regain. And because of the increasing shared timer of cures, the temptation to just say "screw it!" to healing and go all out with damage using the TP generation abilities is there, especially with incrasingly powerful DNC-equippable gear become available.
Curing Waltz V is a necessary evil to increasing HP levels, but doesn't change the inherent problem, and in fact makes it worse since you know V will cost more TP and have a longer delay than IV, which itself was already troublesome. It's a panic button DNC would be evil more hesitant to push since it will shut down healing altogether for like 20 seconds or something crazy.
Maybe DNC will get unshared curing timers at some point. That'd be great. They already did it with Flourishes II and III!
Curing Waltz V is a necessary evil to increasing HP levels, but doesn't change the inherent problem, and in fact makes it worse since you know V will cost more TP and have a longer delay than IV, which itself was already troublesome. It's a panic button DNC would be evil more hesitant to push since it will shut down healing altogether for like 20 seconds or something crazy.
Maybe DNC will get unshared curing timers at some point. That'd be great. They already did it with Flourishes II and III!
http://ereblog.livejournal.com/
Erecia and Ereblog are BACK, baby!
Erecia and Ereblog are BACK, baby!
DNC will never get Dual Wield V, if you look at the progression (it would be at level 100, like the Acc Bonus 4 we'll never get). The only Job Trait I foresee us getting this update is (perhaps) Subtle Blow 4. We should have gotten it at 85, but they seem to have forgotten.
Dark times for Dancer:
1) We're not viable healers anymore, barring ridiculous AF3+2 hands/body stats with Recast-20 or something.
2) We're still competitive DDs, but many jobs have gotten 5% Haste closer to us, or 5% Haste and 10% Dual Wield if someone else is subbing DNC.
3) We lack weapon versatility or something else useful to do. Aka, we can't proc !!s except Dagger, 1 H2H, and /NIN spells, all of which Thief can do as well while putting TH on things
I'd predicted that 85 was our peak as a job, but I wish I'd been wrong.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:27am by Byrthnoth
Dark times for Dancer:
1) We're not viable healers anymore, barring ridiculous AF3+2 hands/body stats with Recast-20 or something.
2) We're still competitive DDs, but many jobs have gotten 5% Haste closer to us, or 5% Haste and 10% Dual Wield if someone else is subbing DNC.
3) We lack weapon versatility or something else useful to do. Aka, we can't proc !!s except Dagger, 1 H2H, and /NIN spells, all of which Thief can do as well while putting TH on things
I'd predicted that 85 was our peak as a job, but I wish I'd been wrong.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:27am by Byrthnoth
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Byrthnoth wrote:
I'd predicted that 85 was our peak as a job, but I wish I'd been wrong.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:27am by Byrthnoth
There still remains our great capability of solo'n :P
Darkzeru wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
I'd predicted that 85 was our peak as a job, but I wish I'd been wrong.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:27am by Byrthnoth
There still remains our great capability of solo'n :P
I've found DNC to be a great tank for abyssea NMs (sanguine scythe atma). Mostly because you are looking for someone to hold the mobs while everyone is trying to trigger the !! first before trying to drop major damage on it, which gives alot of time to build hate. Curing Waltz 2, animated flourish, stunning -gas, and a high eva so you dont shed much of your hate is working well for me.
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.
There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
doctorugh wrote:
]
I've found DNC to be a great tank for abyssea NMs
I've found DNC to be a great tank for abyssea NMs
Yea 9/10 if im in abyssea im doing that with
Cloak and Dagger= ~+30 Acc and Eva
Gnarled Horn= +50 AGI (+25 Eva)
I've solo'd khalamari on numerous occasions with both of those. Even with just Cloak and Dagger he's easy to solo/tank. I still keep Fan Dance up just in case because sometimes he'll catch me w/o shadows and do Mantle Pierce which can one-shot or close enough.
I solo plenty on DNC. There are four things that makes it hard:
1) Spikes of any kind. Ice and Shock are worse than Flame, but anything greater than about 50 damage/hit is intolerably annoying. These can be worked around if you're patient, but you lose a lot of killspeed.
2) -ga magic spam.
3) Monsters with high Acc (Tier 2 NMs, and maybe Adze/Warbler)
4) Things that do heavy magic damage through or wiping shadows (Maelstorm, etc)
Last night I soloed the Tier 2 pot in Vunkerl, that Rabbit a few times (just give me a goddamned SMN seal already, gosh!) and Iktomi just for the heck of it. I'm not saying DNC won't still have a purpose. Fan Dance and Curing Waltz V gives us an edge over just about every other Evasion-based solo job. We're much more durable, when we want to be. I do a lot of my solos with Saber Dance and Haste Samba up though. On the T2 pot last night, for instance, I didn't Waltz once during the fight. Just a Lucid Potion 1 and Dusty Elixir for the three hits I took. (key with him is to turn around for 30 seconds after ice spikes)
Point is, you don't need a job that can't proc !!s in Abyssea. Any job can hold Tier 1 NMs while people try to proc !!s.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 10:36am by Byrthnoth
1) Spikes of any kind. Ice and Shock are worse than Flame, but anything greater than about 50 damage/hit is intolerably annoying. These can be worked around if you're patient, but you lose a lot of killspeed.
2) -ga magic spam.
3) Monsters with high Acc (Tier 2 NMs, and maybe Adze/Warbler)
4) Things that do heavy magic damage through or wiping shadows (Maelstorm, etc)
Last night I soloed the Tier 2 pot in Vunkerl, that Rabbit a few times (just give me a goddamned SMN seal already, gosh!) and Iktomi just for the heck of it. I'm not saying DNC won't still have a purpose. Fan Dance and Curing Waltz V gives us an edge over just about every other Evasion-based solo job. We're much more durable, when we want to be. I do a lot of my solos with Saber Dance and Haste Samba up though. On the T2 pot last night, for instance, I didn't Waltz once during the fight. Just a Lucid Potion 1 and Dusty Elixir for the three hits I took. (key with him is to turn around for 30 seconds after ice spikes)
Point is, you don't need a job that can't proc !!s in Abyssea. Any job can hold Tier 1 NMs while people try to proc !!s.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 10:36am by Byrthnoth
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
I've hit Blue and Red !! way more on DNC then i have my drk :O Whether accident or intentional.
<.< Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah....
Go level WAR or NIN.
Go level WAR or NIN.
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Lol I know War and Nin can hit more !! then dnc :P
Byrthnoth wrote:
<.< Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah....
Go level WAR or NIN.
Go level WAR or NIN.
Final Fantasy XI now consists of WAR MNK NIN WHM BRD THF RDM, plus whoever you need to proc weakness. Woohoo!
So much for balance.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 11:33am by Beleren
Byrthnoth wrote:
2) We're still competitive DDs, but many jobs have gotten 5% Haste closer to us, or 5% Haste and 10% Dual Wield if someone else is subbing DNC.
5% haste is huge
Khory
TybudX wrote:
The hardest part of this game is finding 5-17 other people who aren't retarded.
Beleren wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
<.< Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah....
Go level WAR or NIN.
Go level WAR or NIN.
Final Fantasy XI now consists of WAR MNK NIN WHM BRD THF RDM, plus whoever you need to proc weakness. Woohoo!
So much for balance.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 11:33am by Beleren
Thats all you need to proc weakness
Also, welcome back to 2007 Ninja Fantasy XI
Khory
TybudX wrote:
The hardest part of this game is finding 5-17 other people who aren't retarded.
Game balance wise, this update doesn't actually change much. Now instead of dualboxing Thieves for TH and maining WAR for !!s, people will dualbox WAR for !! and main THF for TH. I already didn't do party-things in Abyssea on DNC.
NIN now gets Evasion Bonus II, Curing Waltz III, Haste Samba, and Violent Flourish from /DNC though. Include their other advantages (Enfeebling, more Dual Wield, more Subtle Blow) and they will probably be better Abyssea soloers than DNC. Fan Dance is our one advantage, and I rarely use it.
NIN now gets Evasion Bonus II, Curing Waltz III, Haste Samba, and Violent Flourish from /DNC though. Include their other advantages (Enfeebling, more Dual Wield, more Subtle Blow) and they will probably be better Abyssea soloers than DNC. Fan Dance is our one advantage, and I rarely use it.
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
TheKhory wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
2) We're still competitive DDs, but many jobs have gotten 5% Haste closer to us, or 5% Haste and 10% Dual Wield if someone else is subbing DNC.
5% haste is huge
Not quite as huge when you can cap delay reduction without it. Also, bear in mind any advantages gained by having that slot filled by something other than a DNC main (DPS, weakness procs in particular).
Byrthnoth wrote:
Game balance wise, this update doesn't actually change much. Now instead of dualboxing Thieves for TH and maining WAR for !!s, people will dualbox WAR for !! and main THF for TH. I already didn't do party-things in Abyssea on DNC.
NIN now gets Evasion Bonus II, Curing Waltz III, Haste Samba, and Violent Flourish from /DNC though. Include their other advantages (Enfeebling, more Dual Wield, more Subtle Blow) and they will probably be better Abyssea soloers than DNC. Fan Dance is our one advantage, and I rarely use it.
NIN now gets Evasion Bonus II, Curing Waltz III, Haste Samba, and Violent Flourish from /DNC though. Include their other advantages (Enfeebling, more Dual Wield, more Subtle Blow) and they will probably be better Abyssea soloers than DNC. Fan Dance is our one advantage, and I rarely use it.
Limited curing potential aside, I like DNC/MNK/NIN BRD DNC as a lowman setup if you're just going in to make something dead and/or only want blue proc. Doesn't hurt that the person I'd set up such a trio with is a DNC main, mind you, and of course I love the job myself. Splitting waltz timers would have broadened the applications of that setup for future use, whereas now it would be MNK BRD WHM or NIN/DNC BRD WHM all the way unless we're just screwing around or feel that 2x DNC is ideal for the situation.
Just me trying to get my money's worth without feeling like I should be on a different job~
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 12:10pm by Beleren
Quote:
They already did it with Flourishes II and III!
You learn something new every day! I assumed all flourishes were shared. Then again I almost only use Reverse.
From Kinematics in the job adjustment post:
This is the best math for DW/haste i've seen recently. This has been known for years, however. I don't know why suddenly people think dw+haste= delay reduction, it doesn't.
So, as dnc with currently capped DW, you still need 63.5% haste to cap delay reduction. Unless you have capped gear haste, haste spell, and multiple other haste buffs, that 5% makes a large difference in attack speed.
In addition, 2handers require 80% haste to cap it. Even with hasso that can be tough to reach. So in situations where you don't have 2houring brds for example, dnc's meritted haste samba is still highly effective. (Also dnc can outdmg plenty of DDs nowadays and that other person who would dd/dnc is losing damage potential)
Quote:
You're mathing that out wrong. DW and MA are multiplicative with haste, not additive.
So, for example, for nin: 35% DW trait does not mean that their haste caps at 45%. 35% DW means that they are inherently attacking at 65% of their nominal (on-weapon) delay. Haste is a multiplier against that such that (1-haste%) * 65% can't be lower than 20%.
If you plug 45% into that you'll see that (1-45%) * 65% = 55% * 65% = 35.75%, which is still well above the cap. Actual limit on haste itself would be such that (1-haste%) * 65% = 20%, or (1-haste%) = 20% / 65%, so (1-haste%) = 30.77% and haste% = 69.23%. That's the actual amount of haste needed to reach the minimum delay for a nin using only native DW trait.
Here's the breakdown for Dual Wield:
10% DW (innate thf, blu)
Max usable haste: 78%
15% DW (any /nin)
Max usable haste: 76.5%
20% DW (/nin + suppa)
Max usable haste: 75%
30% DW (dnc)
Max usable haste: 71.5%
35% DW (nin, dnc+suppa)
Max usable haste: 69.5%
40% DW (nin+suppa, dnc+suppa+auric)
Max usable haste: 66.5%
45% DW (nin+suppa+AF body, dnc+suppa+auric+charis neck)
Max usable haste: 63.5%
50% DW (nin+suppa+AF body+Iga head)
Max usable haste: 60%
55% DW (nin+suppa+AF body+Iga head+Koga pants)
Max usable haste: 55.5%
Mnk's MA is a bit trickier. The minimum delay is 20% of (480 + weapon delay), 480 being the base delay for H2H without any MA traits. Because of that, the actual amount of haste needed to reach the minimum varies with the weapon delay.
So, for example, for nin: 35% DW trait does not mean that their haste caps at 45%. 35% DW means that they are inherently attacking at 65% of their nominal (on-weapon) delay. Haste is a multiplier against that such that (1-haste%) * 65% can't be lower than 20%.
If you plug 45% into that you'll see that (1-45%) * 65% = 55% * 65% = 35.75%, which is still well above the cap. Actual limit on haste itself would be such that (1-haste%) * 65% = 20%, or (1-haste%) = 20% / 65%, so (1-haste%) = 30.77% and haste% = 69.23%. That's the actual amount of haste needed to reach the minimum delay for a nin using only native DW trait.
Here's the breakdown for Dual Wield:
10% DW (innate thf, blu)
Max usable haste: 78%
15% DW (any /nin)
Max usable haste: 76.5%
20% DW (/nin + suppa)
Max usable haste: 75%
30% DW (dnc)
Max usable haste: 71.5%
35% DW (nin, dnc+suppa)
Max usable haste: 69.5%
40% DW (nin+suppa, dnc+suppa+auric)
Max usable haste: 66.5%
45% DW (nin+suppa+AF body, dnc+suppa+auric+charis neck)
Max usable haste: 63.5%
50% DW (nin+suppa+AF body+Iga head)
Max usable haste: 60%
55% DW (nin+suppa+AF body+Iga head+Koga pants)
Max usable haste: 55.5%
Mnk's MA is a bit trickier. The minimum delay is 20% of (480 + weapon delay), 480 being the base delay for H2H without any MA traits. Because of that, the actual amount of haste needed to reach the minimum varies with the weapon delay.
This is the best math for DW/haste i've seen recently. This has been known for years, however. I don't know why suddenly people think dw+haste= delay reduction, it doesn't.
So, as dnc with currently capped DW, you still need 63.5% haste to cap delay reduction. Unless you have capped gear haste, haste spell, and multiple other haste buffs, that 5% makes a large difference in attack speed.
In addition, 2handers require 80% haste to cap it. Even with hasso that can be tough to reach. So in situations where you don't have 2houring brds for example, dnc's meritted haste samba is still highly effective. (Also dnc can outdmg plenty of DDs nowadays and that other person who would dd/dnc is losing damage potential)
Dragonlord
elvaan male
Drg 95,Pld 95, Dnc 95, rdm lv95, pup 95, blm lv90, thf 90
Leviathan
55 fishing,58 cooking, 23 Woodworking
"Show me....by what principlesss art thou driven?"
elvaan male
Drg 95,Pld 95, Dnc 95, rdm lv95, pup 95, blm lv90, thf 90
Leviathan
55 fishing,58 cooking, 23 Woodworking
"Show me....by what principlesss art thou driven?"
Any job/NIN with Suppa has -30% Delay reduction at 90.
10+25+36.5% for 2H DD/SAMs - 71.5%, with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba = 76.5% delay reduction
25+36.5 = 61.5 for 1H DD/NINs - 66.5 with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba, = 76.55% delay reduction
So DNC gives the last 3.5% (really almost 20% DPS)... unless there's a March+3 instrument, etc etc etc. Not to mention that no one melees the same monster in good Abyssea parties.
10+25+36.5% for 2H DD/SAMs - 71.5%, with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba = 76.5% delay reduction
25+36.5 = 61.5 for 1H DD/NINs - 66.5 with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba, = 76.55% delay reduction
So DNC gives the last 3.5% (really almost 20% DPS)... unless there's a March+3 instrument, etc etc etc. Not to mention that no one melees the same monster in good Abyssea parties.
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Byrthnoth wrote:
Any job/NIN with Suppa has -30% Delay reduction at 90.
10+25+36.5% for 2H DD/SAMs - 71.5%, with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba = 76.5% delay reduction
25+36.5 = 61.5 for 1H DD/NINs - 66.5 with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba, = 76.55% delay reduction
So DNC gives the last 3.5% (really almost 20% DPS)... unless there's a March+3 instrument, etc etc etc. Not to mention that no one melees the same monster in good Abyssea parties.
10+25+36.5% for 2H DD/SAMs - 71.5%, with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba = 76.5% delay reduction
25+36.5 = 61.5 for 1H DD/NINs - 66.5 with 5% from /DNC Haste Samba, = 76.55% delay reduction
So DNC gives the last 3.5% (really almost 20% DPS)... unless there's a March+3 instrument, etc etc etc. Not to mention that no one melees the same monster in good Abyssea parties.
Really all this means is your bard needs to be smarter with his songs. If you have a DNC in the party, he should prob be singing march + minuet.
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.
There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
/sigh where to start...
Not that big of a deal because A. not many people will sub dnc in a serious fight just to gain haste samba or a subpar CW3 and B. its a subpar CW3...no other job has access to +CW% gear (other than roundel but gl with that) and if that job is a DD then dumping 50% TP to cure less than 300HP on someone is just stupid...unless its a matter of winning the fight and losing it...and if it is, urdoinitwrong. And before its mentioned, having other jobs have VF isn't that much of a loss either since it's incredibly hard to proc it on anything w/o relic body (unless you have a ridiculously amount of macc)
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but having too little TP is never an issue for curing...if anything I have too much TP and all my timers are down to do anything with it...
/bow to you sir...finally someone using their damn head instead of the "dnc is now useless" crap I've been seeing since they found out the new delay reduction stuff.
Quote:
Quote:
- The level at which the dancer ability "Curing Waltz III" is acquired will be lowered from 50 to 45.
like the loss of haste samba to /dnc @90 wasn't enough >.>
is it worth playing dnc anymore beside soloing/eva tanking ?
- The level at which the dancer ability "Curing Waltz III" is acquired will be lowered from 50 to 45.
like the loss of haste samba to /dnc @90 wasn't enough >.>
is it worth playing dnc anymore beside soloing/eva tanking ?
Not that big of a deal because A. not many people will sub dnc in a serious fight just to gain haste samba or a subpar CW3 and B. its a subpar CW3...no other job has access to +CW% gear (other than roundel but gl with that) and if that job is a DD then dumping 50% TP to cure less than 300HP on someone is just stupid...unless its a matter of winning the fight and losing it...and if it is, urdoinitwrong. And before its mentioned, having other jobs have VF isn't that much of a loss either since it's incredibly hard to proc it on anything w/o relic body (unless you have a ridiculously amount of macc)
Quote:
But DNC has a harder time acumulating mass TP for sustained healing in harder fights. Things like Reverse Flourish and No Foot Rise and Presto help a LOT, but ultimately there's like little spikes that are hard to sustain because of the 300% TP cap and no constant source of regain.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but having too little TP is never an issue for curing...if anything I have too much TP and all my timers are down to do anything with it...
Quote:
Really all this means is your bard needs to be smarter with his songs. If you have a DNC in the party, he should prob be singing march + minuet.
/bow to you sir...finally someone using their damn head instead of the "dnc is now useless" crap I've been seeing since they found out the new delay reduction stuff.
DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75
lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
lolblog: http://mithrasmemoirs.blogspot.com/
Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
another thing to note about this update(and on the almost bright side), is that SE gave sch a "max stratagem+1".
could hope for "max fm+" at some point, eventually... then again probably not till next uncap at least (june 2011 ?)
edit :
sonia thatlum ! 1% waltz all jobs :p
and probably some atma walz+ with heroes.
just make the th-whore /dnc on big fights for haste
as for cw3, for gimp abyssea DD, but it's more of a solo tool for all melee i guess.
as for /dnc vf, it's probably not less potent than dnc's(because not every dnc have that f*cking body that never drop), and lot of blu for exemple often carry 2x+14 m.acc swords.
doesn't mean the playerbase won't follow the idea. i guess the guy who did the test was considering a 3 brd rotations where you already have 2 minuets/madrigal, because everything is fought like that XD
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:24pm by DarkBiBi
could hope for "max fm+" at some point, eventually... then again probably not till next uncap at least (june 2011 ?)
edit :
Quote:
Not that big of a deal because A. not many people will sub dnc in a serious fight just to gain haste samba or a subpar CW3 and B. its a subpar CW3...no other job has access to +CW% gear (other than roundel but gl with that)
sonia thatlum ! 1% waltz all jobs :p
and probably some atma walz+ with heroes.
Quote:
and if that job is a DD then dumping 50% TP to cure less than 300HP on someone is just stupid...unless its a matter of winning the fight and losing it...and if it is, urdoinitwrong.
just make the th-whore /dnc on big fights for haste
as for cw3, for gimp abyssea DD, but it's more of a solo tool for all melee i guess.
Quote:
And before its mentioned, having other jobs have VF isn't that much of a loss either since it's incredibly hard to proc it on anything w/o relic body (unless you have a ridiculously amount of macc)
as for /dnc vf, it's probably not less potent than dnc's(because not every dnc have that f*cking body that never drop), and lot of blu for exemple often carry 2x+14 m.acc swords.
Quote:
/bow to you sir...finally someone using their damn head instead of the "dnc is now useless" crap I've been seeing since they found out the new delay reduction stuff.
doesn't mean the playerbase won't follow the idea. i guess the guy who did the test was considering a 3 brd rotations where you already have 2 minuets/madrigal, because everything is fought like that XD
Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:24pm by DarkBiBi
I don't know, seems a little suspicious claiming DNC is worth inclusion in the party for the last 3% Haste, but Bard shouldn't sing March for the last 2.5% Haste.
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Byrthnoth wrote:
I don't know, seems a little suspicious claiming DNC is worth inclusion in the party for the last 3% Haste, but Bard shouldn't sing March for the last 2.5% Haste.
Who's doing that? I may have missed it.
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.
There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
If you trade Advancing March (9%) for Minuet when you have Haste Samba (10%), you gain 1% Haste and attack, but you could be capping delay reduction if you kept singing the March. In my above post, I think I was including Haste Samba from DNC (we give 3.5% Haste more than /DNC to a 2H DD) and I did some mental math wrong.
9+12.5+15+25+10+10 = 81.5% Haste for a Samba/March/March/Haste/Hasso 2H user, caps at 80% really. If you knock out March, you're at 72.5%.
0.275/0.2 = 37.5% gain in DPS from using the last March. I can absolutely promise you that one Minuet won't do anywhere near that much.
9+12.5+15+25+10 = 71.5% Haste for a Samba/March/March/Haste 1H user, and then 30% DW with /NIN and Suppa at 90 caps you at 80% delay reduction. If you don't use the march, you're at 62.5% Haste, or 73.75% delay reduction.
.2625/.2 = 31.25% gain in DPS from using the last March. Again, I can absolutely promise you that one Minuet won't touch that.
Now, if you have Haste Samba from /DNC:
9+12.5+15+25+10+5 = 76.5% Haste. Knocking out the march puts you at 67.5% Haste
.325/.235 = 38% increase in DPS from the last March
.235/.2 = 17.5% increase in DPS from using a real Dancer over THF/DNC
9+12.5+15+25+5 = 66.5% Haste for 1H with 30% DW. Knocking out the march puts you at 57.5% Haste
.2975/.2345 = 27% increase in DPS from the last March
.2345/.2 = 17.25% increase in DPS from using a real Dancer over THF/DNC
9+12.5+15+25+10+10 = 81.5% Haste for a Samba/March/March/Haste/Hasso 2H user, caps at 80% really. If you knock out March, you're at 72.5%.
0.275/0.2 = 37.5% gain in DPS from using the last March. I can absolutely promise you that one Minuet won't do anywhere near that much.
9+12.5+15+25+10 = 71.5% Haste for a Samba/March/March/Haste 1H user, and then 30% DW with /NIN and Suppa at 90 caps you at 80% delay reduction. If you don't use the march, you're at 62.5% Haste, or 73.75% delay reduction.
.2625/.2 = 31.25% gain in DPS from using the last March. Again, I can absolutely promise you that one Minuet won't touch that.
Now, if you have Haste Samba from /DNC:
9+12.5+15+25+10+5 = 76.5% Haste. Knocking out the march puts you at 67.5% Haste
.325/.235 = 38% increase in DPS from the last March
.235/.2 = 17.5% increase in DPS from using a real Dancer over THF/DNC
9+12.5+15+25+5 = 66.5% Haste for 1H with 30% DW. Knocking out the march puts you at 57.5% Haste
.2975/.2345 = 27% increase in DPS from the last March
.2345/.2 = 17.25% increase in DPS from using a real Dancer over THF/DNC
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
Quote:
9+12.5+15+25+10 = 71.5% Haste for a Samba/March/March/Haste 1H user, and then 30% DW with /NIN and Suppa at 90 caps you at 80% delay reduction. If you don't use the march, you're at 62.5% Haste, or 73.75% delay reduction.
I guess it depends which jobs are in your party. I was looking at it from a DNC perspective with 45% DW (suppo,charis,dagger).
0.55 x [1 - (0.15+0.25+.1+.125) = .20 Making it worthless for a DNC and NIN. March might benefit THF,MNK,BLU but its fairly close. All 2-handers get better benefit from march. So the bard just needs to assess his group to determine what will be best.
Edited, Dec 5th 2010 9:09am by doctorugh
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.
There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
We crunched the numbers and decided to shift the blame to bards. Job well done, chaps!
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