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New Waltz, New FlourishFollow

#1 Nov 30 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBGheK4syEI

Waltz @ 1:10, Flourish @ 2:15

Time to speculate ... though the Waltz is almost certainly Curing Waltz V.

I'm hoping that the Waltzes are either split into two categories, or are rebalanced so that Waltz V has the current IV timer, and IV is reduced to 12 seconds or so. Or something like that.

I'm not sure what to make of the flourish yet. Something flashy, though.

#2 Nov 30 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Am I incorrect in thinking that looks almost exactly like Trance...?
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#3 Dec 01 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Secretkeeper wrote:
Am I incorrect in thinking that looks almost exactly like Trance...?


Quote:
Striking Flourish (DNC Lv.89 Ability Delay: 2 min. Effect Duration: 1 min.)
Allows you to deliver a twofold attack. Requires at least one finishing move.


and every warrior with capped warrior's charge merits began to weep
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#4 Dec 01 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Secretkeeper wrote:
Am I incorrect in thinking that looks almost exactly like Trance...?


Quote:
Striking Flourish (DNC Lv.89 Ability Delay: 2 min. Effect Duration: 1 min.)
Allows you to deliver a twofold attack. Requires at least one finishing move.


and every warrior with capped warrior's charge merits began to weep


Except spending 2secs for the JA, would have resulted in 1-2 more attacks anyway, unless I'm misunderstanding this. Helps War more since thier weapon delay is much greater. (time for JA vs time for swing)
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#5 Dec 01 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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I'm curiou as to what "twofold attack" means...is it just double damage of a regular hit or can it be applied to WSs too?

And what would be the incentive of using this over CF?

Guess we will find out next week...


Edit: actually, it says at least 1 FM to use meaning with 5 we could possibly get 5 extra hits worth of damage...nice but the same problem comes up as with CF...those FMs are probably better spent by just reversing them and self SCing...

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 11:12am by Kalisa
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#6 Dec 01 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I imagine it is a forced double attack, as Jinte suggested. I suppose it would be fairly nifty for a big number WS (assuming it falls under Flourishes III, you could mess around with Striking and Building), but really you'd just use Reverse. Could also be a way of gaining more TP/damage (depending on how FMs play out) if you need to hold TP, but, again, you'd probably just use the TP and Reverse...

Guess we'll find out soon enough.

Oh! And let's not forget the 23 second delay on Waltz V! :x If our waltzing abilities continue to be hindered under the universal timer, or if other ways are not introduced through which this becomes less of a problem, I don't see us using this very often, if at all.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper
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#7 Dec 01 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Supposedly French and German notes specify that it's a double attack. They also say that it will take 2 Finishing moves.

I don't foresee this being useful in the least. Saber Dance 5/5 already gives us a 27% Double Attack rate, so forcing a Double Attack only gives you +.73 Attacks and costs you a potential 10 TP on your Reverse Flourish. This sounds at least as worthless as Climactic Flourish.

Obviously Curing Waltz V will be worthless unless they split the recast timers Even/Odd. We're limited by JA delay, our TP gain, and people getting one-shotted anyway.
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#8 Dec 01 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Obviously Curing Waltz V will be worthless unless they split the recast timers Even/Odd. We're limited by JA delay, our TP gain, and people getting one-shotted anyway.


Highly doubt they will ever split the timers since that will pretty much make us the best healers in the game. They should at least give us more -waltz timer gear so that we can make CW4 the new 3 and just roll with that.
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#9 Dec 01 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm curious how effective this waltz will be as an enmity tool.
#10 Dec 01 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really think it would. If we got split odd/even, we could C5 every 15 seconds and C6 every 21 seconds. WHM can C5 every ~7 seconds and C6 every ~10 seconds. Assuming infinite TP and MP, they win. Not to mention that they totally win on status removal (Healing Waltz' recast is ridiculous) and their Cures give Stoneskin. In Abyssea, 30MP/tick for WHM would be pretty reasonable. Cures cost about 25% less thanks to WHM AF3+2 pants.

Splitting waltzes would just make DNC a viable healer in Abyssea.
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#11 Dec 01 2010 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I find both our new ja's kinda meh, and who else is a little ticked about cor getting regain. (yes its a roll, but i was hopefull dnc would get something like it since we live off our tp)
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#12 Dec 02 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Calessa wrote:
I'm curious how effective this waltz will be as an enmity tool.

W3 spam is likely better CE gain over time, not to mention it's small enough to work from a curecheat without giving up +enmity/potency if that's really your goal.
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#13 Dec 02 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Default
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Secretkeeper wrote:
I imagine it is a forced double attack, as Jinte suggested.
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper

I wander how that would stack with Saber Dance if it's up.

If Striking Flourish is a "Double Attack"
That just sounds like a add-on to Saber Dance (but a flourish)

Haste Samba
Saber Dance
Striking Flourish (if it's double attack)


Would make nice TP gain :P
#14 Dec 02 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
who else is a little ticked about cor getting regain



Personally, I think abyssea atmas really hurt the power of cor rolls (ie easier to cap ratio/acc and cor roll means squat). Additionally the last rolls they got are mostly worthless (weapon delay is trash) and thier DD ability has been greatly compromised with joytoy still being thier best melee weapon while everyone else has moved on.



Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 9:24am by doctorugh
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#15 Dec 02 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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For buffing DDs, even COR/WHM is better than a second Bard in Abyssea (Fighter's, Rogue's, Samurai, and Chaos). Depending on potency, the Regain roll may not even be worth using in a pure DD-sense. In a situation where I'm not using Stalwart's in Abyssea, Berserk increases my normal hit (26% of swings) damage by 25% and my crits (74% of swings) damage by ~13%. Double Minuets or Chaos Roll are going to do less for me than Berserk. Giving me a 100% Crit rate through Rogue's Roll would devalue attack further (push everything to the +13% range), as would finding someone who keys Temp Item chests. Extra Double Attack from Fighter's (hopefully with a WAR in party) would be the icing on the cake. However...

COR lacks AoE sleep and a productive way to pull. That's why having a second Bard singing Minuets is better. Killspeed is limited by pullspeed. I've had parties where I spend less than half the time engaged because pullspeed is so low.

Edit: Also, COR uses Joyeuse to build TP for Slugshot (or Wildfire), and they have gotten access magian guns.

Edited, Dec 2nd 2010 11:29am by Byrthnoth
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#16 Dec 02 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Darkzeru wrote:
Secretkeeper wrote:
I imagine it is a forced double attack, as Jinte suggested.
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:26pm by Secretkeeper

I wander how that would stack with Saber Dance if it's up.

If Striking Flourish is a "Double Attack"
That just sounds like a add-on to Saber Dance (but a flourish)

Haste Samba
Saber Dance
Striking Flourish (if it's double attack)


Would make nice TP gain :P

Spending those FMs on Reverse Flourish would be even better TP gain. Maybe the ~3 people out there with Terp can make something of this, but from where I'm sitting it'll just be another move that wastes FMs.
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#17 Dec 02 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Splitting waltzes would just make DNC a viable healer in Abyssea.


And splitting BPs would make SMN a viable debuffer. But SE doesn't want jobs to be viable alternatives. They want jobs to be cumbersome and awkward.

I've personally felt that Waltz IV is very difficult to find any use outside of healing unweakened people. III just has such a better recast rate. But I have no delusions that SE would ever attempt to make new content useful, since all they care about is being able to hype updates with words.

But I do agree. It is just ******** that a job using limited points should require timed restrictions. It is about as clever as making a 60 seconds delay on weapon skills, even though they already were limited by TP. (Though haste has more or less removed that restriction these days)

Sometimes I think SE bases their view of balance from monsters. If a monster only can cast every 40 seconds, then why should a spirit or puppet cast much faster? Except they miss the whole point that a BLM or RDM doesn't have 40 seconds delays, and it would make more sense to balance jobs, than balance monsters and players randomly.
#18 Dec 02 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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At the very bottom of the most recent update notes SE did mention that they were going back to some previous job abilities and changing them. They may very well be putting the Waltzes into a tiered system, which I think would be fair adjustment.

Or they could give DNC a job ability or a piece of gear (AF3 body) that eats a finishing move or two that then enables another usage of a Waltz.

By the way, I'm calling that the AF3 hands will lower Waltz timers by 5-10 seconds. You heard it here first.
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#19 Dec 03 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
- The level at which the dancer ability "Curing Waltz III" is acquired will be lowered from 50 to 45.


like the loss of haste samba to /dnc @90 wasn't enough >.>

is it worth playing dnc anymore beside soloing/eva tanking ?
#20 Dec 03 2010 at 6:24 AM Rating: Decent
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5% more haste and swords dance say hi
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#21DarkBiBi, Posted: Dec 03 2010 at 6:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) let's see,
#22 Dec 03 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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DarkBiBi wrote:

+5% haste samba, that is now considered useless for dual-weilder anyway thanks to delay cap

What's the Dual-wield cap at?
I see DNC getting Dual Wield V soon......
#23 Dec 03 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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DNC has been following a weird road ever since its conception. The main problem is that SE has treated curing waltzes like cure spells. It's okay to make higher level cure spells cost more MP because a mage's MP pool is also going up and more refresh becomes available. But DNC has a harder time acumulating mass TP for sustained healing in harder fights. Things like Reverse Flourish and No Foot Rise and Presto help a LOT, but ultimately there's like little spikes that are hard to sustain because of the 300% TP cap and no constant source of regain. And because of the increasing shared timer of cures, the temptation to just say "***** it!" to healing and go all out with damage using the TP generation abilities is there, especially with incrasingly powerful DNC-equippable gear become available.

Curing Waltz V is a necessary evil to increasing HP levels, but doesn't change the inherent problem, and in fact makes it worse since you know V will cost more TP and have a longer delay than IV, which itself was already troublesome. It's a panic button DNC would be evil more hesitant to push since it will shut down healing altogether for like 20 seconds or something crazy.

Maybe DNC will get unshared curing timers at some point. That'd be great. They already did it with Flourishes II and III!
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#24 Dec 03 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Default
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DNC will never get Dual Wield V, if you look at the progression (it would be at level 100, like the Acc Bonus 4 we'll never get). The only Job Trait I foresee us getting this update is (perhaps) Subtle Blow 4. We should have gotten it at 85, but they seem to have forgotten.

Dark times for Dancer:
1) We're not viable healers anymore, barring ridiculous AF3+2 hands/body stats with Recast-20 or something.
2) We're still competitive DDs, but many jobs have gotten 5% Haste closer to us, or 5% Haste and 10% Dual Wield if someone else is subbing DNC.
3) We lack weapon versatility or something else useful to do. Aka, we can't proc !!s except Dagger, 1 H2H, and /NIN spells, all of which Thief can do as well while putting TH on things

I'd predicted that 85 was our peak as a job, but I wish I'd been wrong.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:27am by Byrthnoth
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#25 Dec 03 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:


I'd predicted that 85 was our peak as a job, but I wish I'd been wrong.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:27am by Byrthnoth

There still remains our great capability of solo'n :P
#26 Dec 03 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Darkzeru wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:


I'd predicted that 85 was our peak as a job, but I wish I'd been wrong.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2010 9:27am by Byrthnoth

There still remains our great capability of solo'n :P


I've found DNC to be a great tank for abyssea NMs (sanguine scythe atma). Mostly because you are looking for someone to hold the mobs while everyone is trying to trigger the !! first before trying to drop major damage on it, which gives alot of time to build hate. Curing Waltz 2, animated flourish, stunning -gas, and a high eva so you dont shed much of your hate is working well for me.
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