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Feather Step Testing (Updated)Follow

#1 Sep 23 2010 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not done yet because keeping lvl 3 and lvl 4 steps on mobs is a bit of a pain. Tried to get as close to 1000 attacks per parse as possible, but I think the data is close enough.

Lvl 85 DNC
DEX: 98
Weapons: OA3 Parazonium +1 and Sleight Kukri
4% critical hit merits
Mob: Steelshells

Base

Melee attacks - 1040
Critical attacks - 236
Crit % - 21.92%

Feather Step level 1

Melee attacks - 947
Critical attacks - 202
Crit % - 22.52%

Feather Step level 2

Melee attacks - 1062
Critical attacks - 275
Crit % - 26.88%

Analysis so far: the last parse I ended early with 847 attacks and 25.62% crit rate, then I ran again and overshot to 1062. From that I think its pretty safe to say that each level gives 2% critical hit increase per step. The REALLY good thing about this is that I should have been capped @ 24% with no feather steps (dDEX cap + merits should be 24%) and I've already exceeded that with just 2 steps. So Feather step doesn't just bring you to cap, but lets you exceed it.

Think I'm just gonna skip to lvl 5 and see if it will bring me to 30%. Will post results in a bit.

Edit:

Well just did level 5 and my previous guess of 10% doesn't fit with the data

Melee attacks - 1002
Critical attacks - 246
Crit % - 27.70%

Stopped the parse early again around 730 attacks and it still read around 27%

So from base to lvl 5 I have only increased 5.78% which more than likely indicates a 1% increase per step. I still believe it brings us over the base cap like merits and weapons with crit% on them so using feather step is still pretty useful. If anyone has an idea of what I may have missed based on the data that I posted, please let me know.



Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 10:53am by Kalisa

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 12:35pm by Kalisa
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#2 Sep 23 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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These numbers are a bit odd. Probably a very stupid questin, you weren't wearing pahluwan body or mirke with +crit were you? These numbers almost make it seem like feather step just increases the DEX - AGI crit and its bringing you to the cap of ~20% of DEX - AGI. But that would only bring it up to ~24% with no gear. The sample sizes seem pretty decent but level 1, 2, and 5 crit rates just doesn't make much sense.
#3 Sep 23 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Ugh... if its 1% then we need a sample large enough to bring it below 0.5% deviation... that is a *very* large sample size.

Not exactly sure on the math, but should be something stupid like 10000 hits sample
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#4 Sep 23 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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TheKhory wrote:
Ugh... if its 1% then we need a sample large enough to bring it below 0.5% deviation... that is a *very* large sample size.

Not exactly sure on the math, but should be something stupid like 10000 hits sample


After looking at this some more (I kind of just "eyeballed" the deviation, which was stupid)

Kalisa wrote:
Base

Melee attacks - 1040
Critical attacks - 236
Crit % - 21.92%

Feather Step level 1

Melee attacks - 947
Critical attacks - 202
Crit % - 22.52%

Feather Step level 2

Melee attacks - 1062
Critical attacks - 275
Crit % - 26.88%

Well just did level 5 and my previous guess of 10% doesn't fit with the data

Melee attacks - 1002
Critical attacks - 246
Crit % - 27.70%


Base

Melee attacks - 1040
Critical attacks - 236
Crit % - 21.92%

standard error = (.2192*(1-.2192)/1276)^.5=.0115

crit%= 21.92%, +/- 1.15%

Feather Step level 1

Melee attacks - 947
Critical attacks - 202
Crit % - 22.52%

standard error = (.2252*(1-.2252)/1149)^.5=.0123

crit%= 22.52%, +/- 1.23%

Feather Step level 2

Melee attacks - 1062
Critical attacks - 275
Crit % - 26.88%

standard error = (.2688*(1-.2688)/1337)^.5=.0121

crit%= 26.88%, +/- 1.21%

Well just did level 5 and my previous guess of 10% doesn't fit with the data

Melee attacks - 1002
Critical attacks - 246
Crit % - 27.70%

standard error = (.2770*(1-.2770)/1248)^.5=.0127

crit%= 27.70%, +/- 1.27%


With the deviations in place (I haven't done statistics for a while, whoops) these numbers can make sense if we assume +1% per step. To get a deviation of around .5% we need .005 = (.245(1-.245)/n)^.5, n = 7399. So yeah your right we're going to need a sample size of around 10,000ish to get decent results on these tests...

Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 1:45pm by palomaru
#5 Sep 23 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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If I had to Hazard a guess from this information and how steps usually work, I'd say the first step is most likely 2% crit rate with the following being 1% each. That being the case it would give us 10% crit rate with merits and 5 steps.
#6 Sep 23 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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palomaru wrote:
These numbers are a bit odd. Probably a very stupid questin, you weren't wearing pahluwan body or mirke with +crit were you? These numbers almost make it seem like feather step just increases the DEX - AGI crit and its bringing you to the cap of ~20% of DEX - AGI. But that would only bring it up to ~24% with no gear. The sample sizes seem pretty decent but level 1, 2, and 5 crit rates just doesn't make much sense.


I had no other crit equip. And again I doubt that it would only raise dDEX to max and not exceed it since I parsed 27% with all 5 steps on. I only did 0, 1, 2, and 5 because like I said before keeping on 3 and 4 steps on a mob for 1000 hits would be extremely time consuming (but not impossible I know)

TheKhory wrote:
Ugh... if its 1% then we need a sample large enough to bring it below 0.5% deviation... that is a *very* large sample size.

Not exactly sure on the math, but should be something stupid like 10000 hits sample


Yeah you're probably right, getting a much larger sample size would reduce the % deviation and give us a clearer picture. I originally thought about doing this, but at the same time the "practical" side of my brain kicked in and wanted to get numbers closer to what people would see with actual application of feather step (which in the end is kinda pointless since I needed precise numbers to pin down exactly how the step gets applied)

ShibayamaG wrote:
If I had to Hazard a guess from this information and how steps usually work, I'd say the first step is most likely 2% crit rate with the following being 1% each. That being the case it would give us 10% crit rate with merits and 5 steps.


I wouldn't count that out since our other steps gives a bigger boost on first application, then 4 smaller boosts afterwards.

Thanks for the replies guys. Ill probably run some 10k tests later this weekend and see if that will help us nail down the exact numbers better. Sadly I (or someone else maybe) will have to do this again when one of us completes AF3+1 feet to see how the effect changes lol...
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#7 Sep 24 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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i did a test while working on my fusetto+1 in crawlers nest (s).

i was using a low base damage knife to get more ws's in for trials, so the fights were pretty long. I didnt test the effect of different levels of daze but i would say the average daze would be lvl4-5.

I did 1k attacks without feather step, then 1k attacks spamming it. The 1k with feather step parsed a 2.1% increase in crit rate.



Edited, Sep 24th 2010 8:30am by gands
#8 Sep 24 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Kalisa wrote:
I wouldn't count that out since our other steps gives a bigger boost on first application, then 4 smaller boosts afterwards.


Well he did say exactly that, he said 2% on first and 1% on others to give a total of 10% including merits
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#9 Sep 24 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Delarius wrote:
Kalisa wrote:
I wouldn't count that out since our other steps gives a bigger boost on first application, then 4 smaller boosts afterwards.


Well he did say exactly that, he said 2% on first and 1% on others to give a total of 10% including merits


Your point? 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6% 6 + 4% = 10% I already caught that...
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#10 Sep 25 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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Hmmm seems I misread -_-

read "I wouldn't count on that" instead of "I wouldn'T count that out"

Guess I'm retarded, sorry.....
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#11 Nov 21 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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Ran some more tests this time with AF3+1 feet and got a larger sample size this time (although it wasn't the suggested 10000, I'll get there eventually...)

Targets were steelshells again

Base Crit

Hits: 4120
Crits: 1000
Crit %: 24.27%

I went with 108 dex this time which I believe put me at the dDEX cap (don't think I was at cap last time)

Feather step Level 1 with shoes

Hits: 4024
Crits: 1074
Crit %: 26.69%

I also checked the parse around 1000 hits to compare to the data I had before

Hits: 1090
Crits: 298
Crit%: 27.34%

If we take the average of the two we get 27.02%. Compared to data w/o shoes it seems to be a 3% jump instead of 2%.

Now the data that I don't get...


Feather step Level 5 with shoes

Hits: 4132
Crits: 1188
Crit%: 28.75%

Stopped the parse early again to get some numbers and got

Hits: 1256
Crits: 350
Crit%: 27.87%

Which averages to 28.31%...only 4% increase from base and slightly higher than that w/o shoes.



Current conclusion: Feather step only raises our crit hit cap to 28%. Wiki states that crit% cap can be raised by adding gear/weapons that have +crit hit rate on them so I'm guessing the cap is with feather step itself and not a new hard cap. If this is true...then the purpose of the Af3 feet is to cap feather step crit rate with at least 1 step if not 2.

I know...I really need a bigger sample size before I can come to any real conclusions, but I think I'm on the right track with this. As always, any thoughts or corrections are most welcome.


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#12 Nov 21 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, first off I'll point out that Critical Hit rates are notoriously unreliable. Also, as far as we know they're always whole numbers. Same with Hit rate.

Anyway, minor issues:
1) You take the straight average, rather than the weighted average. (for instance, your second sample should be (4132*.2875+1256*.2787)/(4132+1256) = Crit rate = 28.54% ... Alternatively, because you have the samples there, you could just add the number of crits and divide by the number of hits.
2) How do you make sure to keep level 5 Step up on the monster? Engaging backwards with 30+ TP and your OA2-3, Presto Feather, Feather, Presto Feather, then turn around and keep spamming Feather?
3) There is a history of first-steps being more powerful than later steps. My personal assumption was that Level 1 was +2% Crit rate, level 2 was +3%, level 3 was +4%, level 4 was +5%, level 5 was +6%. The boots may do something unrelated to the potency of the step, like increased duration so it's feasible to maintain 5/5 Box and 5/5 Feather. Not my experience, but I'll admit I haven't been breaking my back trying to keep both up.
4) 1.96*100*SQRT(P*(1-P)/n) = 95% confidence interval width for critical hit rate, so your level 5 sample (assuming all hits were done at level 5) is 28.54% +/- (1.2%), so 27.34 to 29.74. If you meleed them while you applied steps, I could see it being 30% (+6%)

It all basically comes down to number 2, I guess. If you were letting a few hits through when Feather Dance was down, it could mess with your average.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 9:10pm by Byrthnoth
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#13 Nov 21 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So Feather step doesn't just bring you to cap, but lets you exceed it.

There is no cap on crits. 20% is just the max that can come from the dex based portion of calculation
#14 Nov 22 2010 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
2) How do you make sure to keep level 5 Step up on the monster? Engaging backwards with 30+ TP and your OA2-3, Presto Feather, Feather, Presto Feather, then turn around and keep spamming Feather?


Yup

Quote:
3) There is a history of first-steps being more powerful than later steps. My personal assumption was that Level 1 was +2% Crit rate, level 2 was +3%, level 3 was +4%, level 4 was +5%, level 5 was +6%. The boots may do something unrelated to the potency of the step, like increased duration so it's feasible to maintain 5/5 Box and 5/5 Feather. Not my experience, but I'll admit I haven't been breaking my back trying to keep both up.


As for the levels of steps, this was also my assumption. Duration seemed to be the same when I was doing the level 1 steps since I was able to time when it wore off so I could turn and reapply it, but will double check that. If the duration and rate are the same, any ideas what else the enhanced effect could be? (damage maybe?)

Quote:
It all basically comes down to number 2, I guess. If you were letting a few hits through when Feather Dance was down, it could mess with your average.


Never happened with lvl 5 since I just spammed feather and kept it up, possibly with lvl 1 with lag delays and all even though I would always turn a few seconds before it was timed to wear off.
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#15 Nov 22 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure then. They could have made it 1% / .5% / .5% / .5% / .5% for 3% total, and then the boots add +1% Crit rate... but that's kinda lame.

I did some tests in Ron that (iirc) showed Feather Step has no impact on the maximum crit damage. I can go out and try again. I need to test the AF3+2 head's Climactic Flourish Enhancement again anyway.
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#16 Nov 22 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Hey hey guys - it's ok we have pompoms now none of this stuff matters anymore.

I kid. In any case it would seem odd for the enhancement to be only 3% - it would be difficult to justify using it over any of your other steps for less than 5% at least.

As far as the enhancement goes, are there any other effects it possibly has other than crit rate (for example, potentially increasing crit rate and damage under feather step?) It just seems like an odd choice to put a mystery step enhancement that only affects one step on our boots when we already macro in relic boots for step accuracy. Might not need to anymore with chorea earring and better accuracy/dex gear fom the cap increase but still I have the feeling there may be more to it than just a rate increase. Otherwise it would have been better to simply have "enhances steps" to give all our our steps a flat effect percentage increase instead of just feather step.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 1:07pm by ShibayamaG
#17 Nov 22 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Sacrificing Acc on Feather Step really doesn't matter at this point.

I have a suspicion about this enhancement, but I really hope I'm wrong. Kalisa's tests haven't shown a potency difference between Boots and no Boots, which means that it may be something entirely unrelated. I agree from in-game experiences that the duration isn't enhanced. So what could it be...? It's probably not Evasion, Defense, or Magic Evasion because already have steps for those. There's a step for +Crit rate . . . could this enhancement make Feather Step pull double duty and give +Magic Crit rate?

Time to take DNC/BLM out to nuke level 0 mobs tonight, lol <_<;
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#18 Nov 22 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Not to give SE too muh credit, but if it's not higher crit rate and it's not duration, then the wording on the shoes would be "augments" and not "enhances" .....unless they royally screwed up.

It still could possibly be +1% hit rate increse and my sample sizes aren't big enough to reflect that. I'll try to at least complete 10k for lvl 1 and lvl 5 by the end of the week to see if I can get better numbers.
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#19 Nov 22 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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This might be a stupid question with a discussed answer already, but is it possible that the boots enhancement makes Feather Step grant a boost to crit damage as well as crit rate?

As of late, SE seems fond of the crit damage+ mod, and I'm not just talking about Razed Ruins atma; there's a buncha new gear with this mod listed on it as well.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 4:27pm by Fynlar
#20 Nov 22 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Well, to get a 95% confidence interval of +/-1%, you need 7200-7900 (for 25-29%) samples. I think it would be more worthwhile to do the no-shoes condition (with capped dDEX and level 1/5 Feather step) before you keep building sample size though.

Math for sample size calculations, binomial distribution:
1 = 100*1.96*sqrt(p*(1-p)/n)
1/(100*1.96)^2 = p*(1-p)/n
n=p*(1-p)*(100*1.96)^2

So you plug in your current crit rate and it will tell you the sample size you'd need to have a 1% confidence interval.

I'm currently devoting my testing time to Saber Dance (though our DNC DD dreams are pretty much shot with the recently-found delay reduction cap), but I can try and test level 1 for the +2 shoes while I do magians.

Edit: Yeah Fynlar, I tested for that earlier while I was testing the AF3+2 head. It looks like I'm due to spend another night in W.Ron, so I'll check again but I'm pretty sure I determined the step didn't give a damage bonus.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 4:31pm by Byrthnoth
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#21 Nov 22 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm currently devoting my testing time to Saber dance (though our DNC DD dreams are pretty much shot with the recently-found delay reduction cap), but I can try and test level 1 for the +2 shoes while I do magians.


Just curious what you're testing SD for?

And what is this delay cap? Never saw any info on it before

Edit: nvm, found the delay cap threads...so far not believing a word of it >.>

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 7:30pm by Kalisa
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#22 Nov 22 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Someone posted today that delay reduction from all sources caps at 80%. We have 30% Dual Wield from traits, 10% from our personal Samba, 25% from gear, and can get another 36.5% from magic (double march + Haste).

(1-.715)*(1-.3) = .1995, so that's at the 80% Delay reduction already without Charis Necklace and Suppa. So whenever you're getting Haste and Marches, you shouldn't be wearing Suppa or Charis Necklace if you have 25% gear Haste (which Rap Harness makes pretty easy). If Charis and Suppa worked, they would be a ~17% increase in our DPS. They don't, but still lower our TP/hit. That's why we looked so much better on paper than in practice until today. Several people have tested it and reached the same conclusion.

AF3+2 head gives Critical Damage+20% (for a total of 25% with trait) when Climactic Flourish is up.
D53, max damage 207 (predicted max for 5+20% Crit Hit Bonus would have been 208)

Anyway, when I was testing that I also tried to test the bonus from the AF3+2 feet. It's definitely not adding Crit damage bonus to Feather Step. Kept getting the same as no bonus at all.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 8:39pm by Byrthnoth
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#23 Nov 29 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Double posting is uncool, but I'll take the hit. My Saber Dance testing came out like this:

/MNK, 0% DA, 5 minute recast: 15%
/MNK, 0% DA, 3 minute recast: 20%
/MNK, 7% DA, 3 minute recast: 27%
/WAR, 7% DA, 3 minute recast: 28% <--- yaaah, what? N>2000

Mont/Kinetics thinks I'm hitting some kind of cap. A cap would make sense, but it would also interfere with our understanding of Saber Dance's decay mechanism (goes down 5% a minute).

I don't think there is any difference between the /MNK and /WAR DA rates, and I feel parsimony points to Saber Dance overwriting the /WAR DA trait. Further tests of this kind are meaningless until I nail down the mechanism that Saber Dance decays by, and it's going to take a lot to convince me to build a significant sample size turning around every minute and changing the parser manually.

Re: Feather step
Yunalesca on BG mentioned that s/he notices occasional double damage crits when using Feather Step with AF1 feet. It might be worth checking yours parses for, Kalisa. You won't be able to say anything about the rate unless the upper end of the distribution is less than twice the lower end, though.

Re: Rumors
Someone reported that DNC AF3+2 set bonus let their entire alliance get Haste Samba in sea, rather than restricting it to one party. I tested this out last night in Dynamis, no go.
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#24 Nov 29 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Re: Feather step
Yunalesca on BG mentioned that s/he notices occasional double damage crits when using Feather Step with AF1 feet. It might be worth checking yours parses for, Kalisa. You won't be able to say anything about the rate unless the upper end of the distribution is less than twice the lower end, though.


Old parses don't show anything about double crits, but went ahead and ran a small parse to see if any of them would reflect it and again, nothing.

5 levels of feather step with +1 shoes

1053 hits
199 crits
low 98
high 128
average damage of all crits 104

Maybe too small of a test for it to show up, but not one of them were doubled...oh and test mob were elder gobbues (can't use steelshells again due to their +def moves which probably debunks me looking at old parses for it to show)

Also tested a few times with climactic flourish just in case it was something that absurd, both parses were nearly identical though, so no go there either.

Still working on the crit % rate though, since this would make the most sense for its enhanced effect. Just gotta nail down credible numbers before I can draw a solid conclusion.
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#25 Nov 30 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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hi i just wanted to know if using 2x dagger with occasionly attack 2 to 3 time stack dual weildin thx
#26 Nov 30 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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It would work. I don't know if you can make a Parazonium and Parazonium +1 at the same time, but you probably can.
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#27 Dec 01 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Not to further the Sabre Dance tangent too much, but I've noticed that when I'm /WAR and using Sabre Dance I'll get what appear to be occasional triple attacks. It may just be an artefact of fast attack speed, but if it's correct, it may be that Sabre Dance and Double Attack don't stack, but can both process at the same time.
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#28 Dec 01 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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If I'm using Saber Dance with Haste buffs, the only way I can tell when my attack rounds happen is by watching my TP. The animation is pretty much continuous.

When parsing H2H on DNC/WAR, I have yet to see any 5-hit rounds. I'll watch out for it whenever I go back to testing that (taking a break to get Ground Strike on WAR and verify whether there's a +DA cap atm).
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#29 Dec 01 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Wouldn't that be trivially easy to test by removing haste gear and meleeing a fort in Campaign?
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