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Evisceration: Not really worth it... (?)Follow

#1 Sep 22 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Been mulling this over for a while now and I wanted to open a discussion on the evisceration WS. Yes I know its been around for a while, but with new toys (climactic flourish, feather step, critical attack bonus, moar DEX gear) I figured I do a lil bit of testing/math and try to get opinions on if its worth using over DE.

So lets break it down from the top:

Evisceration: Delivers a fivefold attack. Chance of critical hit varies with TP
-Basically the more TP you have, the better chance you can crit on each hit, but would be stupid to store 300% TP each time so kinda irrelevant

Modifier: DEX 30%
-We have quite a bit of DEX gear available to us to help this

Stuff to help us out:

Climactic flourish
-This will only guarantee a crit on the first hit

Critical attack bonus
-5% damage added to critical attacks (unknown if we got a boost to this from 80-85 so will just leave it at that)

Feather step: lowers enemy's critical evasion
-currently unknown as to how much each step adds (I'm currently testing this as well, but need HUGE sample sizes before I can come to anything conclusive)

Building flourish: enhances WS with +acc (unknown) +attack (unknown) and +Critical hit rate (unknown) with 3 FMs
-basically another way to get higher critical hit rates

So, an optimal evisceration will have the following: at least 50DEX over mobs AGI (cap @ 20% crit hit rate) full critical hit merits (+4% for a total of 24% crit hit rate) 3 FMs (unknown if this will help exceed the cap or bring you closer to it), 1 Climactic flourish hit, 5 levels of feather step (another unknown on cap), and any gear/traits that increases critical hit% damage.

OK, with all that said, I ran a parse against EP mobs in Ro'mave (was working on OA3 parazonium trial). Stats are the following.

WS Gear: (not my normal WS gear...missing 8 DEX from not using other kila+1 if you're wondering lol)
STR: 112
DEX: 130
attack: 500
Crit hit damage +7% (5 from trait, 2 on anwig)
All WS were done with 3FM for evisceration and at least 2 for DE. Also all eviscerations had at least 2 levels of Feather step. CF application varied.

Parse Data:

Evisceration: (avg) 1079 (high) 1511 (total WSs) 77
Dancing Edge: (avg) 1035 (high) 1361 (total WSs) 15

Conclusion: So with everything that can possibly buff Evis, it BARELY has an average WS damage over DE when done 5 Xs as much Obviously if the number of DEs matched the number of Eviscerations I would have topped average damage with DE. If these were higher level mobs, dDEX would be that much lower which would also favor DE over Evis. Of course there are variables that skewed my parse (WS acc, low WS parses from almost dead mobs, type of mobs, variable critical hits, etc). In a vacuum with perfect math variables maybe Evis would come out on top, but the fact that you have to spend at least 4 FMs to do that (1 CF, 3 BF) and only 2FM for DE gives DE the final advantage.

tl:dr DE > Evis

Disclaimer 1: yes I know that Evis has its advantages when it comes to SCing, not the purpose of this post though...
Disclaimer 2: yes I know my parse is a small sample size and doesn't have perfect variables, but I think its enough to come to a decent conclusion.
Disclaimer 3: yes I know I've been posting a lot lately...still got another week on vacation before I go back to work...so suck it =P

Edit: forgot to mention that all WS were max 6 hits for fairness (no double attacks from brutal earring or saber dance)



Did second parse to finish up my trial, number of WS are much closer to give a better look at the two WS
All above conditions were kept the same

Evisceration: (high)1538 (avg)1085 (number)72
Dancing edge: (high)1514 (avg)1272 (number)81

Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 10:54am by Kalisa

Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 5:00pm by Kalisa
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#2 Sep 22 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Im sure you have perused teh thf boards over the years, as DE/EV has been talked about rather extensively xD

Just like using SATA to force a crit on the 1st hit, forcing a crit actually helps DE more than it helps evis. DE has higher mods, and a 1.1875 FTP (1.2875 if using gorget) for an ~18-28% damage boost on the 1st hit combined with the 40% chr mod means that 1st crit is significantly more powerful than Evis 1st hit force crit. Short version, 1st hit of DE has higher base damage+ftp, so forcing a crit on it will 'help' DE more than Evis. Also evis can naturally crit while DE cant so if anything forcing a crit actually stacks the deck more in favor of DE than evis.

That said, Evis will be getting continually stronger as we level. DE strngth was the chr mod (and a lesser degree FTP). The mod is a rather static boost to base damage unnaffected by weapon damage. As we level, we are getting new daggers with FAR better base damage. I have gone from a blau/sirocco D33+26 to Kila/kila D41/41. thats over 30% increase in base damage on main and ~40% for sub. My chr has not gone up 30%. My dex gear HAS improved a good deal. Increasing Weapon damage/str/dex just push evis up and get boosted further by the ability to crit with this superior base damage. DE is still banking on chr mod vs evis crits.

As our base damage/str/dex goes up, more and more of DE damage will come from base damage/str/dex (all synergizing with crits) and a smaller % of its overall damage will come from chr mod (with no crit synergy). Combine that with thigns like crit damage boost (both thf and dnc have) and evis will be outpacing DE. Weather or not it already HAS or not is pretty variable by player/gear(im mithra so my chr already sucks and dex is obseen, an elf will be a lot more buffs before DE would get passed it up than a mithra for example). But as we continue to level Evis will just creep up and up faster than DE will unless they start making more skadi body type gear with MASSSIVE dex+chr in 1 item to bring up DE again via the mod.

I would definitely keep tabs on Evis. Its only going to get better as we get more dex gear, higher base damage weapons, crit damage traits/gear, all making that chr mod a smaller and smaller part of DE overall damage and Evis just keeps getting buffed up subtly. One day we will wake up and Evis will always be stronger than DE. Maybe not today, but given time.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 11:46am by Banalaty
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#3 Sep 22 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Default
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hmmm.

i can't really remember, but doesn't crit ws usualy score more on highter lv. target ?
#4 Sep 22 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
Im sure you have perused teh thf boards over the years, as DE/EV has been talked about rather extensively xD

Just like using SATA to force a crit on the 1st hit, forcing a crit actually helps DE more than it helps evis.


Of course I have, on alla's THF board and others

...only this is not the THF boards ;)

In saying that, DNC doesn't have the option to force crit on DE (unless you sub THF for SA but thats another topic entirely). Both CF and BF (lvl 3) don't work for DE crits.

Now yes, I do agree that Evis very may one day overcome DE with all the toys available to us...but even with the ones we have now that all favor Evis...DE STILL comes out on top on average.
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#5 Sep 22 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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In saying that, DNC doesn't have the option to force crit on DE (unless you sub THF for SA but thats another topic entirely). Both CF and BF (lvl 3) don't work for DE crits.


I didnt realize that it wasnt a true "forced" crit like SA, assassin fueled TA, mighty strikes etc. Mah bad xD I stand corrected. (/hides in shame in the shadow of dnc ignorance)

In that case I have a hard time imagining DE really holding up with the forced crit. I realize you guys have more base chr than thf, but is it really THAT significant? Or the combination that you also lack the dex/str gear Thf does for massive WSC thf can pull off to boost Evis through the roof? I suppose its the combination and will just take a bit longer to reach that threshold for evis to handily beat DE for dnc via more levels/daggers/gear upgrades on the road to 99 than it does on thf. At this point on thf, I am basically full timing Evis unstacked and using DE when stacked as that ~20% boost to 1st hit+chr mod on force crit still tilts SA/TADE over SA/TAEvis.

And to the above poster, yes evis will perform better on higher def mobs than DE because crits 'pierce' through def in a way with a static Pdif boost while DE just gets shat on by higher def. Alternatively, low def mobs DE base damage comes out ahead with the atk to back it up. Ironically, on easier mobs it is easier to get capped crit rate also buffin Evis back up a bit.
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#6 Sep 22 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
And to the above poster, yes evis will perform better on higher def mobs than DE because crits 'pierce' through def in a way with a static Pdif boost while DE just gets shat on by higher def.


Not that your statement is wrong or that I disagree, but isn't it safe to assume that higher level mob = higher AGI => lowers dDEX = lower chance to crit each hit? Somewhat unrelated, but thats one of the reasons why THF prefers SB and MStab over DE/EV on higher level mobs (that and less hits on high eva mobs = more damage than whiffing on a 6 hit WS)
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#7 Sep 22 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Absolutely right. I was going with the 'technical' answer to the question, but as you stated, the practical answer is that man stab and SB do better for thf in those situations. But as a Dnc, SB is lame without SATA and mandalic stab doesnt exist.

DE and Evis have this wierd catch 22 thing goin on. On easy mobs the high atk boosts DE up making the crits less pronounced on Evis. But those mobs also have lower agi so you can more easily cap crit rate helping evis again. On the otherhand, higher level/def mobs DE is hurt by lower atk but evis crits are more valuable. But they are also harder to cap crit rate on due to higher agi.......

Its kinda wierd. Basically both work all the time :P

You can get more specific and say "on higher level mobs AND having large atk buffs DE wins because your crit rate on evis is low and you still can manage high atk on DE" or "On lower level, high def mobs (crabs etc) evis can do better because of high crit rate AND low atk". Those are kinda the extremes, but usually you land somewhere in the middle.

Just more reasons thie Evis vs DE is almost never very clear.
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#8 Sep 22 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Not that your statement is wrong or that I disagree, but isn't it safe to assume that higher level mob = higher AGI => lowers dDEX = lower chance to crit each hit? Somewhat unrelated, but thats one of the reasons why THF prefers SB and MStab over DE/EV on higher level mobs (that and less hits on high eva mobs = more damage than whiffing on a 6 hit WS)


Yes and no. I would actually look at it in a similar way to Raging Rush vs King's Justice on WAR. It's a similar thing, only KJ has damage varies with TP not accuracy.

When you have a high level mob, your ATT is also typically behind the curve, but like he said, a crit gives you a real boost. In a way, you look at WS hits like regular hits first - if you're whacking away on a high DEF mob, non-crit hits are probably pretty weak. That's why, if you're going to use a multi-hitter, use one that crits. The low end will be crappy, but at least you run the chance of getting some decent hits in.

On the flip side, if you have high enough ATT to let the higher mods on a non-crit WS shine, then they'll likely be more consistent. Like you pointed out, if you luck out, then a crit WS will peak higher - but that's not all the time.

Again, as he said, if you're dealing with things where the crit rate is particularly high - low level mobs, low AGI mobs, etc, then a crit WS will perform better more consistently, and will likely be the better choice.

It's more of a situational thing than x or y being flat out better 100% of the time.


Single hitters, sure, more certain that you'll get the "full" damage of the WS, but also in part due to much higher mods on them. Some also give effective ATT boosts (MStab does).


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#9 Sep 22 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w218/Kayalan/Capture.png

Although I do love Evisceration, sometimes Dancing Edge goes and surprises me. This was on Crapaudy in Abyssea, which are pretty mushy, but you never get to see DNC DD'ing enough.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 2:19pm by Kayalan
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#10 Sep 22 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't necessarily include Climactic Flourish in the discussion given Reverse Flourish. Yes it's in a different category, but it's still consuming FMs. Might be worth considering if your NFR timer is sitting idle though. I would however add Charis Feather... Curious what the crit damage bonus on it is.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 4:31pm by Beleren
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#11 Sep 22 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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They are very close regardless, personally I'd recommend using DE over Evi depending on your gear and race, don't forget that CHR is a mod for DE, and if what you have allows for large CHR/DEX combo stacking, seeing as 40% of the modified influence stems from CHR, you could see dramatically different results. For thf, I'd almost positively use Evi over DE in most situations where I had to choose between the two, but for DNC, native CHR is higher, and as a result I'd lean towards DE.

Now, as for 'is it worth it'... it is if you want the WS dagger from magian trials, as its required for parts of it. As for weather the WS dagger is worth it is an entirely different line of questioning ^^.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 5:07pm by FUJILIVES
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#12 Sep 23 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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FUJILIVES wrote:
For thf, I'd almost positively use Evi over DE in most situations where I had to choose between the two


As far as abyssea is concerned, DE is gonna be stronger outside of something like gearing an atma specifically for Evisceration. Like this one:

Atma of the Razed Ruin: DEX: Superior Critical, Hit Rate: Major, Critical Hit Damage: Major

That is @#%^ING SEXY

But outside of atmas like that, status enhancements that also buff CHR, Attack Food, Stalwart Tonic, Berserk etc are going make capping attack a lot easier and push DE ahead in most situations I would think.[/i]

Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 3:40pm by ThiefKiller
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#13 Sep 23 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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#14 Sep 23 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
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The basic problem problem with PK is its a 4 hit ws as apposed to a 5 hit. Even if the first hit has a decent fTP of 1.5, it would take quite a bit of WSC to let it catch up to DE (or evis under high crit settings). People see the str mod on the WS and and think that could make it better. If you stack str/dex with a primary focus on str since it increases the WSC and the fSTR, you'll find that you'll probably cap your fSTR before the damage catches up to DE (the chr and dex mods just seem to tailor dnc better right now). Right now even with the 85 magian trials our weapon rank just isn't high enough making our fSTR cap before PK = DE(this is under most conditions btw, I'm sure with a high enough enemy VIT and high enough +STR on the dnc PK can exceed DE)
#15 Sep 23 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Default
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The basic problem problem with PK is its a 4 hit ws as apposed to a 5 hit. Even if the first hit has a decent fTP of 1.5, it would take quite a bit of WSC to let it catch up to DE (or evis under high crit settings). People see the str mod on the WS and and think that could make it better. If you stack str/dex with a primary focus on str since it increases the WSC and the fSTR, you'll find that you'll probably cap your fSTR before the damage catches up to DE (the chr and dex mods just seem to tailor dnc better right now). Right now even with the 85 magian trials our weapon rank just isn't high enough making our fSTR cap before PK = DE(this is under most conditions btw, I'm sure with a high enough enemy VIT and high enough +STR on the dnc PK can exceed DE)


Uhh, I don't know what the hell you just said there (terms like WSC and fSTR and pDIF are all Greek to me), but my point was that Kleos makes a Darkness skillchain with Evis, and therefore that can make Evis worth using. Yet I didn't see Kleos mentioned anywhere in the thread, not even in any of the responses.
#16 Sep 23 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Uhh, I don't know what the hell you just said there (terms like WSC and fSTR and pDIF are all Greek to me), but my point was that Kleos makes a Darkness skillchain with Evis, and therefore that can make Evis worth using. Yet I didn't see Kleos mentioned anywhere in the thread, not even in any of the responses.

This thread is mostly all about the general use of WSs (I assume most people here are talking about choosing a WS and spamming just that one). Now, of course if you want to create darkness PK -> Evis or Evis -> PK can certainly be used and arguably should be used every time you want to do a solo skillchain (like with sekkanoki or NFR+RF). However, this isn't really about skillchains.
#17 Sep 23 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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palomaru wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
Uhh, I don't know what the hell you just said there (terms like WSC and fSTR and pDIF are all Greek to me), but my point was that Kleos makes a Darkness skillchain with Evis, and therefore that can make Evis worth using. Yet I didn't see Kleos mentioned anywhere in the thread, not even in any of the responses.

This thread is mostly all about the general use of WSs (I assume most people here are talking about choosing a WS and spamming just that one). Now, of course if you want to create darkness PK -> Evis or Evis -> PK can certainly be used and arguably should be used every time you want to do a solo skillchain (like with sekkanoki or NFR+RF). However, this isn't really about skillchains.


Correct. As I stated in the OP the purpose wasn't to talk about anything but Evisceration buffed with BF/CF/FS/crit attack bonus vs DE only buffed with BF. I wanted to show that even with everything in Eviceration's favor, overall it still isn't really worth using over DE that is simply buffed with 2 FMs.
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#18 Sep 23 2010 at 10:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

WS Gear: (not my normal WS gear...missing 8 DEX from not using other kila+1 if you're wondering lol)
STR: 112
DEX: 130
attack: 500
Crit hit damage +7% (5 from trait, 2 on anwig)



Theoretical target (my base analysis target for most stuff at this time):
Lvl 92
400 def, 360 w/Dia II, 332 w/Dia II + Presto&Box Step
390 evasion
82 vit
77 agi


cRatio: 1.0389 w/Dia II, 1.1560 w/Box Step
Accuracy: assumed 95%


DE:
~75 chr?
WSC = 58
fStr = 8
Base D = 41 + 8 + 58 = 107

5+1 hits:
1 @ 107 * 1.1875 = 127.0625
5 @ 107 = 535
@ 95% acc == 629
@ 1.0389 pDif = 653
@ 1.1560 pDif = 727


Evis:
WSC = 33
fStr = 8
Base D = 41 + 8 + 33 = 82

5+1 hits:
@ 1.0389 pDif = 85.2/hit, 175.6/crit
@ 1.1560 pDif = 94.8/hit, 185.6/crit
@95% hit rate, 5.7 hits average
Avg without crits:
@ 1.0389 pDif = 486
@ 1.1560 pDif = 540


Expected average with 10% base crit rate, capped dex/agi crit rate, and 4% merits: 661 - 716 (better than DE without Box Step, worse than DE with Box Step).


Two threshholds:

[The 82% threshhold is where PK>Evis>Darkness beats DE>DE>Detonation.]

82% of DE = 535 / 596
Need 49-56 more damage from crits.
Achievable with 9.5% - 10.8% crit rates.
If it's assumed that Evis has a base 10% crit rate, that's always achievable.
If it has a base 0% crit rate, then base + merits should make it effectively always achievable.


100% of DE = 653 / 727
Need 167-187 more damage.
Achievable with 32% - 36% crit rate.
If WS has 10% base crit rate, achievable with capped dex/agi crit rate, and possibly Feather Step.



Out of curiosity, setting cRatio to 0.8 to see how they compare against high def mobs:

DE: 503
Evis: 374 with no crits, would match DE at 25% crit rate. If WS has 10% base crit rate, would need 6% from dex, which requires a dDex of 41 (somewhat unlikely against very high def mobs). dDex of 30 would be +4% crit rate. Definitely worth skillchaining with, but will be a tiny bit behind DE for standalone damage.



Building Flourish +crit rate certainly helps Evis close the gap (assuming it can go over the cap), but at the same time the higher attack it gives favors DE more. It's unlikely, however, than the extra attack is sufficient to shift the crit rate that's needed to overcome that balance by more than 1%-2% (a 7% reduction in defense only changed the crit% needed by 1%). A 5% boost to crit rate from BF should easily outdo that difference.

Quote:
Obviously if the number of DEs matched the number of Eviscerations I would have topped average damage with DE.


This is not necessarily a valid conclusion. A lower number of DEs leaves room for higher averages being reported as easily as lower averages.
#19 Sep 25 2010 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Looks pretty tight and cant fault someone for using one or the other. I'm sticking with DE, as the build is easier for me.

Edited, Sep 25th 2010 7:54am by doctorugh
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#20 Sep 25 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Just a question but doesn't Multi Hit WS drop in ACC to 70%? (ie. you have aprox 25% chance to miss at least 1 hit not 5%) Or am I on drugs? I was in the understnding that 5%*5 = 25% so 1/4 times you will miss at least once. Or did SE fix the WS to chec ACC for each hit and not lumped like it did back in the day (have been out of game for a long time and remember the ACC of multi hits dropped a lot compared to single or 2-3 hits.)
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#21 Sep 25 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Just a question but doesn't Multi Hit WS drop in ACC to 70%? (ie. you have aprox 25% chance to miss at least 1 hit not 5%) Or am I on drugs? I was in the understnding that 5%*5 = 25% so 1/4 times you will miss at least once. Or did SE fix the WS to chec ACC for each hit and not lumped like it did back in the day (have been out of game for a long time and remember the ACC of multi hits dropped a lot compared to single or 2-3 hits.)

If you have capped accuracy, your chance to hit is 95%. A blanket statement can be made that approximately 95% of all your hits will not miss. Same goes to DE, if you do 100 DE's, no DW, DA, etc... 25 of the 500 hits in those DEs will miss on average. What you're talking about is the chance for all 5 hits to connect (which really doesn't have a whole lot of significance unless your interested in spike damage). The chance for all 5 of those hits to connect is .95^5 = ~ .7737. So theres actually a 77.37% chance to have all 5 of the hits connect. Meaning theres a 22.63% chance that 1, 2, 3, 4, or all 5 of the hits will miss. If you decide to do all the calculations you'll find that on average 95% accuracy will cause your DEs to do ~95% of the damage of full damage DEs, so basically multihit WSs are affected by hit rates just as much as other WSs are(except the WSs that SE buffed to hell during the 2 hander update that basically made them guaranteed that they wont miss even with virtually 0 accuracy gear on). Now if your not anywhere neared capped accuracy (which is probably a whole other problem) then +accuracy gear and hit rate does tend to help multihit WSs quite a bit more, but I don't think thats really anything of what you were talking about.

Also, I'm not sure what your talking about for "back in the day" and "lumped" I've had a 75 drk before cop was released and I was spamming multihit WS, guillotine, for a long time and I don't remember them clumping the calculation together. Do you have a link on that? I'm some what curious about that.

Edited, Sep 25th 2010 12:53pm by palomaru

Edited, Sep 25th 2010 12:58pm by palomaru
#22 Sep 25 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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No what you described is what i meant, how it gets all calculated on the hit which I had always assumed was the case except for an old thing on ffxiclopedia that stated otherwise. (back in the day is 3-4 years ago). Since it is no longer in the WS list I can only assume it was disproven and removed.
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#23 Sep 27 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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If THF, a class with more base DEX, less base CHR, and many, many more +DEX gear options still can't decide which of the two is better, I'm sticking with DE.
#24 Sep 28 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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Lets also not forget the Cruor Buffs when you are in Abyssea. Thats free +10 DEX and +10 CHA right there. +20 on the new areas.

Unless you are a idiot and dont use them.
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#25 Oct 03 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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i got atma of the razed ruins the other day and makes evis a clear winner in abyssea.
the atma give +50dex and a boost in crit damage and rate. i parsed a 55% crit rate, and my avg crits were doing 4x my regular melee hits (no food exping on colibris). my evis's were doubling DE easily :D fun stuff.
#26 Oct 04 2010 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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That sounds like it would be fun. I might have to give that one a shot.
#27 Nov 03 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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gands wrote:
i got atma of the razed ruins the other day and makes evis a clear winner in abyssea.
the atma give +50dex and a boost in crit damage and rate. i parsed a 55% crit rate, and my avg crits were doing 4x my regular melee hits (no food exping on colibris). my evis's were doubling DE easily :D fun stuff.


This. VV/RR Atmas in abyssea make Evis a beast. I was averaging 2.2k Evis on Orapodiums with a high of 2.8k when we were playing with RR after we got it. I was pretty skeptical when people were saying that Evis was way better than DE in abyssea when I was pulling 1.9-2.1k food/temps/SD fueled DEs on puks, but I have seen the light.
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#28 Nov 04 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Uhh, I don't know what the hell you just said there (terms like WSC and fSTR and pDIF are all Greek to me)


w/ 26k posts, many if not all of which being on the ffxi site and at least some posted ostensibly to be either helpful or at least to somehow contribute to discussions of gear/WS/damage or whatever, you should be pretty ashamed of yourself if the above quote is true. none of the concepts are difficult, and they've been explained in detail in hundreds if not thousands of posts (not to mention they're explained fully on wiki).
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#29 Nov 11 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Gnarled Horn/Razed Ruins are actually the best for Dancer in Abyssea, in my opinion. But yes, Evisceration is undoubtedly better once you get good Atmas in Abyssea. My Evisceration average on normal (non-piercing weak) monsters is over 2500.

Edit:
Atma of the Razed Ruins is from Ironclad Pulverizer, who is spawned with Abyssic Cluster and Ironclad Observer's key items. He is somewhat difficult to proc Red !!s on, because his normal attack rounds count as TP moves.
Atma of the Gnarled Horn is from Sobek. He is much easier to proc Red !! on, and plenty of people want to fight him. This Atma shouldn't be very difficult to obtain.

To use them, you will need two Lunar Abyssites. You can get one by killing one zone boss in any zone (Abyssea - Misareaux's boss is the easiest in my opinion) and another by buying one for 100k Cruor from an NPC in a Scars zone.

Together the two Atma will give you a ~75% critical hit rate and somewhere between +35 and +50% damage from critical hits depending on your gear. That is why Evisceration damage shoots up so high.

Edited, Nov 11th 2010 3:00pm by Byrthnoth
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#30 Nov 11 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Gnarled Horn/Razed Ruins are actually the best for Dancer in Abyssea, in my opinion. But yes, Evisceration is undoubtedly better once you get good Atmas in Abyssea. My Evisceration average on normal (non-piercing weak) monsters is over 2500.

Edit:
Atma of the Razed Ruins is from Ironclad Pulverizer, who is spawned with Abyssic Cluster and Ironclad Observer's key items. He is somewhat difficult to proc Red !!s on, because his normal attack rounds count as TP moves.
Atma of the Gnarled Horn is from Sobek. He is much easier to proc Red !! on, and plenty of people want to fight him. This Atma shouldn't be very difficult to obtain.

To use them, you will need two Lunar Abyssites. You can get one by killing one zone boss in any zone (Abyssea - Misareaux's boss is the easiest in my opinion) and another by buying one for 100k Cruor from an NPC in a Scars zone.

Together the two Atma will give you a ~75% critical hit rate and somewhere between +35 and +50% damage from critical hits depending on your gear. That is why Evisceration damage shoots up so high.


Gnarled Horn is a decent option since a 20% increase in crit rate is fairly significant, but only realistically gives one increase to DoT. With RR, it gives a +50% crit chance (not 75%) and +30% crit damage (not +50%, only from RR). Gear and natural crit rate is inconsequential, since those are control factors when considering the individual strength of atmas, as RR/VV will get the same natural/gear bonus as RR/GH, and iirc neither crit rate nor crit damage have increasing returns like haste (i.e. values grant a higher increase the greater the value gets).

While it isn't necessarily a bad choice, it is far from the best for DNC, or any job, crit based WS or not. Voracious Violet increases WS rate, which while it may not potentially give the higher chance to crit on WS and better melee crit rate, it will give a static 2/tick regain and 10% double attack, which both greatly lead to faster TP gain and WS frequency. Also, while it may not be quite as pronounced as a 20% bonus to crit rate, the +50 STR and +10% DA also lead to stronger WS numbers, both in consistency and ceiling numbers.

Basically, with GH as opposed to VV, you're gaining a marginal boost in WS and per-swing damage, but losing handily in DoT and WS frequency. This, also, is considering a straight DD setup where you would be foregoing the healing/support aspect of the job, where the faster TP gain from VV will blow GH out of the water for utility purposes.

TLDR; RR/GH is okay, but still loses to RR/VV, DNC or otherwise.

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#31 Nov 11 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikourei wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
Gnarled Horn/Razed Ruins are actually the best for Dancer in Abyssea, in my opinion. But yes, Evisceration is undoubtedly better once you get good Atmas in Abyssea. My Evisceration average on normal (non-piercing weak) monsters is over 2500.

Edit:
Atma of the Razed Ruins is from Ironclad Pulverizer, who is spawned with Abyssic Cluster and Ironclad Observer's key items. He is somewhat difficult to proc Red !!s on, because his normal attack rounds count as TP moves.
Atma of the Gnarled Horn is from Sobek. He is much easier to proc Red !! on, and plenty of people want to fight him. This Atma shouldn't be very difficult to obtain.

To use them, you will need two Lunar Abyssites. You can get one by killing one zone boss in any zone (Abyssea - Misareaux's boss is the easiest in my opinion) and another by buying one for 100k Cruor from an NPC in a Scars zone.

Together the two Atma will give you a ~75% critical hit rate and somewhere between +35 and +50% damage from critical hits depending on your gear. That is why Evisceration damage shoots up so high.


Gnarled Horn is a decent option since a 20% increase in crit rate is fairly significant, but only realistically gives one increase to DoT. With RR, it gives a +50% crit chance (not 75%) and +30% crit damage (not +50%, only from RR). Gear and natural crit rate is inconsequential, since those are control factors when considering the individual strength of atmas, as RR/VV will get the same natural/gear bonus as RR/GH, and iirc neither crit rate nor crit damage have increasing returns like haste (i.e. values grant a higher increase the greater the value gets).

While it isn't necessarily a bad choice, it is far from the best for DNC, or any job, crit based WS or not. Voracious Violet increases WS rate, which while it may not potentially give the higher chance to crit on WS and better melee crit rate, it will give a static 2/tick regain and 10% double attack, which both greatly lead to faster TP gain and WS frequency. Also, while it may not be quite as pronounced as a 20% bonus to crit rate, the +50 STR and +10% DA also lead to stronger WS numbers, both in consistency and ceiling numbers.

Basically, with GH as opposed to VV, you're gaining a marginal boost in WS and per-swing damage, but losing handily in DoT and WS frequency. This, also, is considering a straight DD setup where you would be foregoing the healing/support aspect of the job, where the faster TP gain from VV will blow GH out of the water for utility purposes.

TLDR; RR/GH is okay, but still loses to RR/VV, DNC or otherwise.



Err... well, I disagree. Here's why:
VV - 5% DA, 50 STR (25 Attack), and 2TP/tick regain
GH - 50 AGI, 20% Crit rate (parsed it tonight), and Counter (kinda unknown, 5-10%)

50 STR does nothing for my fSTR or WS mods (Evis is DEX), so it doesn't increase my TP or WS except by virtue of also being 25 Attack. That reduces VV to 25 Attack, 2 TP/tick, and 5% DA.
GH boosts my crit rate from 54% to 74%. (Razed Ruins completes my dDEX and gives 30% crit rate, putting me at 54%.) It also has some -damage really, because the counter and the ~25 Evasion from AGI are worth something. I have a ~50% Eva rate on average Abyssea mobs in TP gear with it.

Maf:
[Average Crit pDIF]*[Crit damage modifier]*[Crit rate] + [Average Norm pDIF]*(1-[Crit rate]) = [dmgish]
[2.4]*[1.4]*[Crit rate] + [1.75]*(1-[Crit rate]) = [dmgish] <--- numbers from my most recent parse
[2.4]*[1.4]*[.54] + [1.75]*(1-.54) = [dmgish] = 2.6194 <--- ~VV and control
[2.4]*[1.4]*[.74] + [1.75]*(1-[.74]) = [dmgish] = 2.9414 <--- GH

+20% Crit gives you a 12% damage boost and evasion/counter. VV gives you 5% DA (<4% damage) and 2TP/tick, with 25 Attack (<5% damage on normal hits -well over 500 attack with minuets-, and probably nothing for my crits). GH is just a better option, and will only get better if I get Loki's Kaftan.

The benefit of VV for 2H jobs is that it caps your fSTR and often pulls double duty as a WS mod, which doesn't apply to dagger jobs because we're already fSTR capped with just cruor buffs, meat, and TP gear.

Edit: Evisceration average last night was ~2800, would have been higher if I hadn't been killshotting mobs with it and if we'd had a second puller so our DDs (and consequently singing bards) didn't get spread out and leave me without minuets half the time. Spike was over 3500, but the damage was very regular due to it being a multi-hit with a 74% crit rate.
Double Minuets (124 Attack iirc) increased my average crit damage 6% and my average normal hit damage 8%, so if we expect VV to do 1/5 of that (which would be the max that it does), then the bonus from 25 Attack would be approximately 1-2%. +1-2% damage from Attack, +~3-4% damage from Double Attack, and 2TP/tick regain vs. a straight 12% boost in DPS and WS damage. Unless VV is affecting your x-hit or fSTR, Gnarled Horn is better.

Edited, Nov 12th 2010 10:59am by Byrthnoth
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#32 Nov 12 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Some slightly off numbers for some atmas. Razed Ruin is 30% crit rate, 30% crit damage, +50 dex. If you have this atma, Evis beats the pants off DE. Evis will literally double DE damage EASY.

Also, (theres a bit of discussion on atmas on thf boards) I would suggest Stout Arm (40 str, 50 atk, 40 Ratk) as an alternative to VV. VV is great, but we have no str mod WS unless you have a mandau. So all we can get is Fstr capped which should not be very difficult with cruor buffs to stats and +40 off Stout arm. +50 is likely overkill, and stout arm gives a total whopping +70 atk which does WAAAAAAY more than 10 str ever would for the atk starved thf and dnc.

Also, the 10% DA gets washed out by Thfs triple attack/brutal etc and I imagine it would for dnc as well between saber dance and the favored OA2-3x dagger.

Stout arms 40str, 70 total attack will easily win out over 20% crit rate even when coupled with teh enhanced crit damage of RR. 70atk is a decent meat food. That is huge alone, not to mention finishing off our Fstr with speedy daggers.
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#33 Nov 12 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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Not sure about this, but is there a cap on Double Attack? I was going to say something about it on my last post, but all I could find around the internet was a ~32% max most jobs could get with natural JA/gear, but that obviously was before SD and atma bonuses. If there is, the 10% DA from VV would be diminished if you're fulltiming a 5/5 SD + brutal, but if there isn't, that's a 65/55/45% increase constant, so it wouldn't really be a wash. Again, I'm basing that on something I'm not 100% sure on, so I can't say that for fact. The only mitigating factor in that sense *would* be oa2-3 dagger, but DA would still factor in mainhand and non 2-3 proc offhand swings, raising the per-round attacks, which increases TP gain speed and WS frequency.

I will have to pick up GH and play with it, but I'm not sure the increase in per hit/WS damage would outweigh the increased WS frequency of VV. This concept goes way back when people started realizing that in most situations, setting up a full SC+MB is actually decreasing DoT since it slows WS frequency WAY down and wastes TP over 100% even though the damage done by the entire SC+MB does far more than any single WS or spell alone. Again, I'll have to pick it up and parse, but I'm *very* skeptical about it.

Also, in your group where you were averaging 2.8k with spikes to 3.5k, were you getting 2x minuet 2x march, min/march, or just 2x minuet?
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#34 Nov 12 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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There is no known cap on Double Attack but, unfortunately, VV's Double Attack is 5% and not the 10% that Wiki has listed. I use it on my GA WAR (where kparser actually catches additional attacks) and I’ve never seen it be more than a 5% increase. Also, Saber Dance isn’t nearly that potent. I wish it was true, but it looks like someone updated wiki without testing it properly and then no one corrected it for over a year. Personally, I expect it’s a per-round diminishing affect to some static baseline like Fan Dance. K-parser is miserable at picking up dagger attack rounds on dancer (can hardly blame it with double marches, Samba, Dual Wield, etc), so I don’t know for sure. I always quote it at 20% average, which I feel is much closer to what it actually is. Because I use Saber Dance, /WAR, Brutal, etc, when I go to DD, I offhand an STP Fusetto +1 over my 2-3 Parazonium

I was DNC/WAR with Berserk up about 55% of the time, Minuets up about 45% of the time, double Marches a little more often than Minuets, and Marbled Steak for food, Razed Ruins, and Gnarled Horn fighting Flies in La Theine (piercing weak) for my 2.8k average last night. I kept Saber Dance and Haste Samba up full time, though I could have been a little more aggressive with Saber Dance I think. I’ll note that I’m incredibly lucky to know people who invite me to play DNC in Abyssea with enough healing that I can lolDD.

My WS gear definitely has some slots that could use improvement, but my basic strategy is to whore mods and Crit Damage+ and let buffs (and crits) take care of my attack for me in Abyssea:
DEX-Acc Kila+1/Fusetto +1/____/Charis
Charis+2/Love/Aesir/Brutal
Mirkegon/Ample/Jupiter’s/Rajas
Nifty/Warwolf/Tumbler/Charis+2

I’d love Yaanei’s bonnet, Turul’s Kaftan, and a Cuchu belt along with a better main-hand... buuut I make it work! Once in a while you say something that makes me think you don’t believe critical hit rate+20 does anything for you during WS. It increases Evisceration average damage and (more importantly in my opinion) reliability. Fewer “Oops, I critted and rubied” moments when you’re expecting it.

Re: Regain,
I get about 3 ticks (6 TP) per WS in Abyssea if I’m just blowing through my TP with VV up ignoring Ruby light/etc. It saves me 1 hit, which may or may not matter depending on my DAing luck that time. Definitely increases WS frequency in that case, but not more than one swing worth. Considering how much I have to sit on TP when I’m trying to avoid pearl and how rarely I end up WSing as soon as I hit 100TP, I don’t consider it that much of a loss really.

VV - 1-2% increase in damage per hit from Attack, <4% increase in damage per round from Double Attack, <<7% (84/78) increase in WS frequency
GH is a ~12% increase in damage, a 12% increase in evasion, and a ~5-`0% counter rate (hard to say, I parsed 7% but only 14 counters).
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#35 Nov 13 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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You guys all get to DD on DNC it sounds like......lucky bastards....



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#36 Nov 13 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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doctorugh wrote:
You guys all get to DD on DNC it sounds like......lucky bastards....


Gear toward DD once and go to town when you get a chance. I guarantee once they see what you can do on DNC they'll want you there for DD and find a WHM for cures.

I have a hard time *not* getting hate on DNC, and most of the people I play with are very good. Only our BB MNK is able to keep hate from me with any consistency, and we bounce off each other more often than not.

EDIT: And even when you're mainly in a healing role, don't forget that even though you're a "healer" you're still a melee DD. DoT is one of our strong points, so gear a TP set to the teeth and you'll have more than enough TP to be able to toss WS in.

Edited, Nov 13th 2010 2:48pm by Mikourei
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#37 Nov 13 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
You guys all get to DD on DNC it sounds like......lucky bastards....

Inside Abyssea, infinite MP and no appreciable change in DNC's curing abilities shifted the balance of power among healers. WHM is now clearly the best healer, with DNC and RDM trailing behind. DNC's healing role is more of a spot curing deal within my group these days, with buffs/debuffs and DDing being my main priorities. Outside Abyssea, things are pretty much as they've always been; Refresh II and Ballad III helped some but DNC still has the edge.

Also, Razed Ruins and Gnarled Horn or VV is ridiculously sexy. Even before Abyssea, a well geared DNC had more TP than they could reasonably spend even with a Waltz timer Anwig... Atmas leave no excuse not to make use of that blindingly fast TP gain for damage as well as support.
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#38 Nov 13 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Gear toward DD once and go to town when you get a chance


Dont get me wrong, I still DOT very well and have good gear for it. It just seems like if I am WS, I have hate full time and then the mages are asleep or dont cure or whatever. Then if you die, its like WTF, why didnt you cure yourself, you are a DNC...(er used TP on ws <<)
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#39 Nov 14 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Atmas are everything in Abyssea. Someone wearing Weapons, Haste gear (Turban/Harness/Dusk/Swift/Aurore/Ballerines) and using the right Atma could demolish a perfectly geared player without good Atma. Anyway, most people don't have atmas, so pickup party DDs don't really compete. Forgive me for sounding conceited, but if I'm in a pickup party, the odds that I'm the strongest DD there are very good. In those situations, if I have one WHM to Haste me and cast Cure 5/6 at regular intervals, I pretty much solo their monsters for them. In general, everyone realizes that this is the most efficient way to go rather than forcing me to Waltz DDs that WS for 1k. Sometimes they don't, or I get one of those parties that literally has 0 healers awake enough to Haste and Cure. I just leave at that point and go solo crap.

In Abyssea groups with friends, generally I go WAR or BLM because we're building time and Fell Cleave and -agas blow other options away. Sometimes I forgo the benefits of building time and go DNC (depending how serious we are about building time quickly), and then warp, change to WAR, and burn stones for the rest of the night. If I was using a single-target WS, the damage discrepancy between WAR and DNC wouldn't be very large at all, but Aeolian edge doesn't stand up to Fell Cleave.
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#40 Nov 15 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
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w/ 26k posts, many if not all of which being on the ffxi site and at least some posted ostensibly to be either helpful or at least to somehow contribute to discussions of gear/WS/damage or whatever, you should be pretty ashamed of yourself if the above quote is true. none of the concepts are difficult, and they've been explained in detail in hundreds if not thousands of posts (not to mention they're explained fully on wiki).


That kind of math just doesn't agree with my brain, unfortunately. It has little to nothing to do with my post count, so I'm not sure why you bring it up as if it matters somehow.
#41 Nov 16 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
w/ 26k posts, many if not all of which being on the ffxi site and at least some posted ostensibly to be either helpful or at least to somehow contribute to discussions of gear/WS/damage or whatever, you should be pretty ashamed of yourself if the above quote is true. none of the concepts are difficult, and they've been explained in detail in hundreds if not thousands of posts (not to mention they're explained fully on wiki).


That kind of math just doesn't agree with my brain, unfortunately. It has little to nothing to do with my post count, so I'm not sure why you bring it up as if it matters somehow.


But its just addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.....oh well, nvm.
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#42 Nov 16 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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But its just addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.....oh well, nvm.


Pointing that out was about as useless as saying "it's just numbers man, we learned those in kindergarten!"

For instance, take this page. Just about everything on it kills my brain when trying to comprehend it at all. Having an understanding of +-*/ is not really enough to be able to understand what's on that page, I'm afraid.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 5:28pm by Fynlar
#43 Nov 16 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
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But its just addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.....oh well, nvm.


Pointing that out was about as useless as saying "it's just numbers man, we learned those in kindergarten!"

For instance, take this page. Just about everything on it kills my brain when trying to comprehend it at all. Having an understanding of +-*/ is not really enough to be able to understand what's on that page, I'm afraid.

Edited, Nov 16th 2010 5:28pm by Fynlar


It might seem overwhelming if you are trying to understand all parts of the equation at once. Break it down to its constituent parts and it is more manageable.

Start with Ratio, your attack/enemy defense. 600att/300def, ratio is 2. Simple enough.

Then move to cRatio (level corrected ratio), each level takes off 0.05 (for melee). So if this mob is 5 levels higher: 2 - 5(0.05) = 1.75 is your cRatio

Just proceed through each step. You can do it.


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