Zafire wrote: wrote:
? You didn't even read what I said. Here, let me break it down:
If a RDM/NIN was meleeing, and doing Dia III/haste duties (Something no other job could do effectively, back then, btw), there would be FAR more damage output than if the RDM sat in the backlines and main healed and let the DNC go all-out DD and simply use haste samba/steps
If the DNC is main healing that means he is losing out on Saber Dance (40% DA) and Dancing Edge, but he is still able to swings his daggers effectively. Hell, the DNC probably COULD throw in DE's every now and then because of how ridiculously nice Reverse Flourish is when it's merited.
Do you really think 40% DA and Dancing Edge is going to out damage a melee RDM? If you do you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, at all. People around here are saying RDM can do 70-80% of a DD's damage, and have parses to prove that and back it up. If you think Saber Dance and Dancing Edge can out DD a Melee RDM that means you're saying DNC was the best DD in the game back then, which was far from the truth.
This is an example of how informed and hostile the RDM forums can get. Step carefully, it's retarded in there nowadays.
First off, let's dispense with the idea that a DNC will support Saber Dance 100% of the time while in DD mode. It just doesn't happen realistically. Getting them to do that is a pain in the ass, even if they have solid healing. They want to have their waltes available if sh*t hits the fan. Kind of like how people seem to insist on supporting themselves if they've the ability. (Read: Self Refresh and Sublimation.)
The second issue is Haste Samba and RDM Enspells. They clash. If a RDM is not using EN II then he has to sacrifice one of them. Typically, in high level builds, Haste Samba wins due to the increasing returns on haste. Honestly, Dancer cooperation I believe is the primary reason EN II's only proc on the initial strike. This would be ok if the damn thing would calculate damage on cast and not on strike. But as it stands, it's the best compromise we've got.
Fact: If a RDM is doing less than 40% of a Dancer's output then he's not wearing Melee gear at all, let alone using food. In 75 Parse parties splitting healing duties I was parsing neck and neck with my favorite Dancer. (Incidentally, we were the only two people in the parse at capped Acc.) I probably still have the parse, but it's on my corrupted hard drive. (Just spent $600 upgrading and replacing parts in my computer form what seems to be surge damage, even though its on a surge protector.) I'd have to go digging for it.
DE on Dancer Fails, even at 75. DEx2 < Evis + Pheric Kleios + Darkness(+ Skillchain bonus.) As a RDM/DNC at 80 you can open Darkness for them Twice in a row. (And burst both if you're feeling lucky.) DNC sacrifices TP this way, but considering how fast they build steps (And TP in general.) it's a moot point, you just cover healing till their TP returns to usable levels.
However, due to our slow step building, this situation happens a wide intervals. Between those, you can open for a two-step skill-chain. (Dagger: Evisceration > Dancing Edge > Pheric Kleos. Sword: Death Blossom > Pheric Kleos > Evisceration.) Or open for one Darkness and let them rip out a Dancing Edge on their own. (Haven't decided which one outputs more.)
There's also an issue concerning the matter of Steps. They stack, and there are 4 Kinds now. Depending on the situation, I typically encourage my DNC to focus on Quick Step first (Remember, other party members do not always have cap Acc.) or now, Feather Step (Provided the average party hit rate is high enough.) While I focus on Box Step + DiaII combo. This really helps the party (And now Alliance.) Output as we can focus on stacking the best combination for the other's output. Without me in the front lines the entire group is deprived either 4% hit rate, 5% Defense down, or Critical Hit rate up.
There's no way in HELL a Dancer can out-damage herself and a RDM assisting her. Wasn't possible at 75, for HELL isn't possible now unless the RDM is meleeing in Errant. The only issue with this combo in bird camps is running out of birds, and that just doesn't happen now in Abyssea.
I thought the part in bold to be particularly enlightening to the topic matter. The main thread can be found at http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=2&mid=1284274354199992703&page=3&howmany=50#msg128488242272853399 page 3. I'd advise to skip the first 2 pages as it doesn't apply to this post. It's obvious Hyrist claims to have some experience, but somehow his recollected facts don't add up with me. Again any assistance will me most appreciated.
Edited, Sep 19th 2010 3:07am by ShadowedgeFFXI