Controversial topic on DNC vs RDM melee, helpFollow

? You didn't even read what I said. Here, let me break it down:

If a RDM/NIN was meleeing, and doing Dia III/haste duties (Something no other job could do effectively, back then, btw), there would be FAR more damage output than if the RDM sat in the backlines and main healed and let the DNC go all-out DD and simply use haste samba/steps

If the DNC is main healing that means he is losing out on Saber Dance (40% DA) and Dancing Edge, but he is still able to swings his daggers effectively. Hell, the DNC probably COULD throw in DE's every now and then because of how ridiculously nice Reverse Flourish is when it's merited.

Do you really think 40% DA and Dancing Edge is going to out damage a melee RDM? If you do you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, at all. People around here are saying RDM can do 70-80% of a DD's damage, and have parses to prove that and back it up. If you think Saber Dance and Dancing Edge can out DD a Melee RDM that means you're saying DNC was the best DD in the game back then, which was far from the truth.

First off, let's dispense with the idea that a DNC will support Saber Dance 100% of the time while in DD mode. It just doesn't happen realistically. Getting them to do that is a pain in the ass, even if they have solid healing. They want to have their waltes available if sh*t hits the fan. Kind of like how people seem to insist on supporting themselves if they've the ability. (Read: Self Refresh and Sublimation.)

The second issue is Haste Samba and RDM Enspells. They clash. If a RDM is not using EN II then he has to sacrifice one of them. Typically, in high level builds, Haste Samba wins due to the increasing returns on haste. Honestly, Dancer cooperation I believe is the primary reason EN II's only proc on the initial strike. This would be ok if the damn thing would calculate damage on cast and not on strike. But as it stands, it's the best compromise we've got.


Fact: If a RDM is doing less than 40% of a Dancer's output then he's not wearing Melee gear at all, let alone using food. In 75 Parse parties splitting healing duties I was parsing neck and neck with my favorite Dancer. (Incidentally, we were the only two people in the parse at capped Acc.) I probably still have the parse, but it's on my corrupted hard drive. (Just spent $600 upgrading and replacing parts in my computer form what seems to be surge damage, even though its on a surge protector.) I'd have to go digging for it.

DE on Dancer Fails, even at 75. DEx2 < Evis + Pheric Kleios + Darkness(+ Skillchain bonus.) As a RDM/DNC at 80 you can open Darkness for them Twice in a row. (And burst both if you're feeling lucky.) DNC sacrifices TP this way, but considering how fast they build steps (And TP in general.) it's a moot point, you just cover healing till their TP returns to usable levels.

However, due to our slow step building, this situation happens a wide intervals. Between those, you can open for a two-step skill-chain. (Dagger: Evisceration > Dancing Edge > Pheric Kleos. Sword: Death Blossom > Pheric Kleos > Evisceration.) Or open for one Darkness and let them rip out a Dancing Edge on their own. (Haven't decided which one outputs more.)

There's also an issue concerning the matter of Steps. They stack, and there are 4 Kinds now. Depending on the situation, I typically encourage my DNC to focus on Quick Step first (Remember, other party members do not always have cap Acc.) or now, Feather Step (Provided the average party hit rate is high enough.) While I focus on Box Step + DiaII combo. This really helps the party (And now Alliance.) Output as we can focus on stacking the best combination for the other's output. Without me in the front lines the entire group is deprived either 4% hit rate, 5% Defense down, or Critical Hit rate up.

There's no way in HELL a Dancer can out-damage herself and a RDM assisting her. Wasn't possible at 75, for HELL isn't possible now unless the RDM is meleeing in Errant. The only issue with this combo in bird camps is running out of birds, and that just doesn't happen now in Abyssea.

DNC + RDM > DNC + nobody.

But I'm not sure why the RDM gets to get all swordchucky while the DNC is expected to spend TP on healing waltz.

Basically, the conclusion you're supposed to come to - which should be obvious - is that as long as the reduction in the DNC's damage is less than the amount of damage the RDM's doing, you get more total damage.

Some people actually don't get that.

Last question on this and I'll leave it be. Do you guys feel that a pimped out DNC at Lv75 would easily defeat a pimped RDM at the 75 cap? I'm conflicted on this myself so I'm asking you guys. The off-hit Joyeuse for you guys at 75 wasn't the best. I agree at Lv85 DNC totally demolishes RDM and is a huge contender to all DD's.

This is stupid. It's incredibly obvious that full-on DD DNC + backline RDM is going to do less damage than full-on DNC + RDM basically backlining, but has a Joyeuse in their idle set and is standing next to the mob. It's free damage (as long as there aren't bad AoEs to worry about).

It's also obvious that a pimped 85 DNC/SAM is going to pump out the damage if they're trying for it, while RDM/whatever isn't going to have such an easy time (gogo Magic Burst Bonus?), and the DNC's TP would be better spent DDing than curing as long as the RDM's MP is keeping up.

On the other hand, it's also obvious that there are some really terribly-geared DNCs out there, where you really would get more damage if the DNC cured and the RDM did everything else they normally do while focusing a little more on melee.

The question (and it will vary with the skill + equipment of your DNC and RDM) is, where is the maximization point?

Wait, a situational decision? In my FFXI? It's more likely than you think.

But I wonder why this argument has to be DNC support + RDM melee. I mean, who cares about RDM? Certainly not us; this is the dancer forum! Why aren't we also discussing the possibility of a WHM/NIN equipping that wacky Shen body armor and busting out some sick Hexa Strikes? Or maybe if the PLD goes all-out DD and the DNC waltzspams him, the damage output will be higher than the DNC alone? Heck, let's invite Mellowy and have a melee SMN and her avatar up there. The possibilities are endless!

Actually in the SE video that RDM was /NIN and likely tanking AV. Being engaged just gives a RDM a small chance to parry. The staff is an earth staff so if shadows go down you get the -% damage taken. It is apparent because the log shows the RDM cycling blind/bind/dispel/sleep/sleepII, Now confused as to why SE would show us a video with a RDM/NIN tanking AV and then nerf RDM tanking. My brain is all fuzzy like now.

Why aren't we also discussing the possibility of a WHM/NIN equipping that wacky Shen body armor and busting out some sick Hexa Strikes?