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Dual Wield Weapon set at 75Follow

#52 Jan 28 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Let me clarify, it was mamool ja merit camp, fighting Puks and Mamool. WS damage was higher then normal on puks, and on mamool it was around normal, since I was eatting Marinara Pizza and the Brd was giving 1 atk song.

I'd probably have more in the WS department, but there where times when I had to main cure cause the Whm couldn't keep up.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#54 Jan 28 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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You won't be getting 80% acc. I barely hit 80% without sacrificing a sh*t load of haste gear, at which point defeats the purpose of using the joyeuse. And your math only holds true if the mob stays alive long enough, which in the vast majority of cases, it does not. In merit parties, and the majority of end game scenarios, the fight is going to end before the joy toy pulls ahead with that math, in which case the numbers have to start over again at the beginning of the next fight.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#56 Jan 28 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because if it takes 10 attack rounds to out do dual dagger (for arguments sake), you can't count 7 hits from the first fight, then 3 from the next. The fight starts over and both weapon setups start again at exactly the same time.

You can't hit 7.6 times in a fight (again, just a number for arguments sake), it's either you attack, or you don't. So in a case where you're saying after this many attack rounds this weapon is better, you have to assume that the fight is endless, which in most cases it isn't.

Next, I still don't know why there are people trying to advocate switching any double attack or haste gear in favor of using a joyeuse. Haste affects our dot and tp gain exponentially, especially with the amounts we can get between dusk, af2, enkidu, jse, and just regular equipment. Why are we even going over this? Joyeuse will not outdo a Dnc in full haste gear using 2 daggers. I'm sorry, but it had to be said.

Oh, and wait, is that math including max merits into swords? Just to make 1 weapon on Dnc come close to 80% acc on something? lol...and good luck using that same setup on something of substantial worth in end game, usual dual daggers and only turban and swift belt as my haste gear, I'm still barely over the 85% acc area.

And if you're happy with 80% acc on anything, then I'm done here. Lol. Not only is 80% acc still low as hell, you're dagger is going to be approaching acc cap on that same exact mob, totally killing your potential when you could be lossing 3-4% acc with daggers, yet gaining so much more haste.

Edited, Jan 28th 2009 9:48pm by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#58 Jan 29 2009 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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My simple question evidently got skipped over. NO biggy. But really, why use a Cobra Unit Knife? Is it for the low delay on off-hand?
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#59 Jan 29 2009 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My simple question evidently got skipped over. NO biggy. But really, why use a Cobra Unit Knife? Is it for the low delay on off-hand?


CUF off hand for low delay, if you main hand something like Jambiya. You could probably get more DoT using a BK+1 off hand, but I decided to save the gil and put it towards an Azoth, something I'm getting closer to. Once I get an Azoth, I'll try working toward off handing Ermine's Tail, or something of substantial value.

Oh, and apparently Colibri rule the world. Again, try using that setup that gives 80% acc on colibri anywhere else in end game and enjoy. Hell, try using that setup at a merit camp while not receiving acc buffs from a Brd or Cor, in the chance that they decide to focus on double attack (Brd), atk + haste (Brd), atk + tp (Cor). Both setups are something I come across often, since most melee I've come across hate wasting a buff on acc when they can get it so easily from other places. I've learned not to rely on other jobs for acc, which makes off handing the joyeuse less then ideal for that situation. Don't War have this same discussion, when talking about off handing a Joyeuse? It's lower then normal acc doesn't make up for its DA in the vast majority of situations, that's why they off hand a second axe when /nin. And that's with a B skill in it lol. If they have a Ridill this changes, because they're throwing out 3 hits as well, more then making up for the lower acc.

Also, what gear are you using? 21% haste, yet you arent sacrificing a lot of acc gear? I believe it, I just want to know what gear we're talking about here. With Turban, JSE, Dusk hands, swift belt, af2 legs, and dusk feet, thats 22% haste. Yet you are losing acc in the feet, legs, waist, hands, body, and head lol. It's always a trade off, and I just want to see how you can keep the same high haste% while maintaining this sufficient acc you keep coming up with.

I hate having to go through the math, because it sucks in situations like this and applies to 1 mob only. I'll come back in a day or two with a picture of a parse showing what you claim, cause I'm ready to just go full haste gear with off hand joy just to show you the results I have seen since the day my dnc was high enough to use joyeuse.

I have 13% haste from Head, body, and belt. I'm missing another 9% haste, yet those slots are filled with acc gear. I have friends with dusk hands, so I'll try to borrow that for this test. I'll probably parse either 100 or 200 mobs, 50 (100) mobs with off hand joy and 50 (100) with off hand dagger. I'll make sure to set it to compare any relevant things such as acc and DoT. I'm predicting 85~% Acc with dagger/sword setup, but that doesn't factor in how dagger acc is way above sword, therefor making joyeuse acc way lower then 80%. If I do that, then after I do the parse on average dagger acc, we can compare to see about where sword lies with my current setup (far from max haste potential, yet it has acc to supposedly make up for joyeuses lack of).

I'll be back sometime soon (and by soon I mean as soon as I find a party willing to let me try out different melee setups as a support job @_@).

Edited, Jan 29th 2009 11:44am by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#60 Jan 29 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Skreechy wrote:
My simple question evidently got skipped over. NO biggy. But really, why use a Cobra Unit Knife? Is it for the low delay on off-hand?


I answered it. I said I used CUK in calcs because others suggested it. I wouldn't personally use one. Despite the low delay, it does not have the DPS other low delay weapons other classes use. Perdu Blade for NIN has 10.10. Blau Dolch has 11.12. Sirocco Kukri has 10.4. In contrast, CUK has 8.77 DPS. In my eyes it's another heart snatcher: It has something on it that gives the appearance that it's good, but it's still pretty much crap :P

It is slightly better than HS, in the sense that it causes more tp gain and DNC isn't only focused on damage. However, I'd still go with other daggers.

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Now to address the ATK comment... by rdmdontdie
First, you came up to the right number for fSTR, but your calc seems off. Max fSTR for both weapons will be 11, while the fSTR gained is 3. You applied 3, so it's fine.
We no longer know for sure if the pDIF works in the same way as listed on the wiki, but even if it does, some of your calcs seem a bit off. For instance, I'm not sure how you go 1.5 as the max. The max is going to be ~1.0 for dagger and min will be ~.2. We usually just use the cRatio, with the ATK you stated, vs level 82 greater colibri with dia II it would be .839
Math:
327*.10= 32, 327-32= 295 Def.
351/295= 1.189 - .35= .839.
Joy:
298/295= 1.010 - .35= .660

Lets do Bk+1/BK+1 since I think it's smarter. The new Cratio is .873 vs .660. Going to use the gear I had in the mad/march scenario, so delay would be 139(with haste, haste samba, and march, 57% haste). 5.1 tp a hit.

In 1 hour, there will be 1553 rounds, with 3097 landed hits @95% acc and 5% DA.
fSTR is 3, so the average damage over time should be about:
35 * 3097 *.873 = 94,628 damage.

For the Joy in that situation, we'll use 47.75% DA to add in the brutal. Delay should be 147. 1469 rounds, 1469 swings at 95% acc and 5% da, so 1464 swings landed with dagger. Damage:
35 * 1464 * .839 = 42,990.

Now the Joy part, you mentioned Closed Position. this is 15 extra acc IF you can keep the monster facing you always. I know that's impossible, unless you get a very cooperative group that all clump up on one side of the enemy. That's also nearly impossible. Especially if other members have similar style merits, like THF and ambush needing to be behind, SAM needing front, etc. Most people circle the enemy. I'll leave it out for now, because if I do include it, then I'd want to leave out mad(which is already helping joy more than dagger).

Joy has 1469 rounds @ 47.75% DA and 83.5% acc(not going to use hollow like you because brutal will be around the same, and help more on WS, plus helps main more). 1811 hits from Joy landed.
38 * 1811 * .660 = 45,419

Total damage for BK+1/Joy = 88,409

This is a difference in melee damage of 7%.

Hmm, what's left is to calculate WS, but I'd need some insight on what kind of WS gear a DNC would use, and their stats at the time. I'll just state what is necessary for BK+1/Joy to catch up: 1200 tp between the two setups mean around 13 ws more for BK+Joy in a perfect world(it's 13 not 12 because the total amount of tp, 16702.5 vs 15485). However, this is nearly impossible since you can't always WS at 100 tp, and with joy you have a high chance of going over 100 due to DA. Worst case would be something similar to having 96.9 or so tp, then procing DA on either offhand only or on all hands, wasting 10.2 to 15.3 tp, and will probably happen often with a 45% DA weapon. See this thread for an example.

So, while still giving Bk+1/Joy the huge benefit of the doubt, we'll lower it to 11 more WS, probably more likely to 10 WS or less. At 11 WS, you ws average needs to be 747 to catch up, at 10 it needs to be 822. This is also assuming the WS for all the other times you went before the joy pulled ahead, which it will not be. The BK+1/Bk+1 setup will have higher damage WS(due to 10 extra atk) so the gap will be even further.

Final breakdown: BK+1/BK+1 will have 7% increase to your melee side, which, based on your 70/30 breakdown is a 4.9% increase to total DoT. Furthermore, it gives a 4% increase to it's WS side, while BK+1/Joy will produce ~7-7.5% more WS, resulting in a ~3.5% increase from BK+1/Joy in WS damage total. This is all giving Joy favorable conditions. Break those numbers down into the 70/30 split and we get a 1.05% increase to total damage.

The difference between the two is 3.85% in favor of BK+1/Bk+1 over Bk+1/Joy, even favoring Joy by using acc songs instead of dual haste or atk/haste, and other calc increases favoring joy mentioned above.

The ATK isn't negligible like you stated, nor is joy that big of a winner. Now as you stated, it does net more tp allowing more moves to be done. However, this is only accomplished by crippling the party requiring Madrigal, or by using extremely expensive sushi, and only works on colibri. Granted, having different gear for different camps is to be expected of DDs, my THF and DRG have complete different sets when needing to switch from haste to atk to Acc, and my NIN and THF has other varied sets or simply just slots. I use different food per camp as well.

That said however, Colibri is one of the locations I personally believe madrigal no longer has a place. With cheap sushi being available, any DD class should be able to maintain respectable acc independently, even without a large amount of acc gear. This allows for more powerful songs Minuet and March to be used instead, increasing the overall potential. When I party with people who can't keep up because they need madrigal, I'm upset. I spent the time an effort to increase myself enough to help the party without detriment, and then others who are lazier or refuse to change from a weaker setup that requires it force me to take a song that doesn't help me in the slightest(like on my DRG, before I started haste build).

/rant off.

Edited, Jan 29th 2009 4:27pm by Souji
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#62 Jan 29 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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In specific situations I won't argue that it's the best tp weapon you can get. However, your argument may work for you using Bream Sushi +1 at that particular camp, but we're having a discussion thread about what is best for the majority of players. Most of them will, at best, be using Crab sushi. Actually, most people still don't bother with any food at Colibri. Closed position, like I pointed out, cannot be relied on 100% of the time. Best you can probably get it to is 50-75% of the time, effectively cutting down it's bonus. I know how hard staying at a specific position of a monster is by playing THF. Few other things:

About knocking Colibri: I agree with you, I calc off colibri. People don't like that, but personally it's the merit camp I get the most invite to on the DDs I play. Again though, I still have equip setups to switch to for other camps.

Acc on Colibri: The cap is actually 407. 339 acc would be 75% hit rate on them, then you add 40 to get 95%. Finally, multiply the level difference by 4 to get the final acc required to for 95%.

Quickstep: The average life time of colibri on any of my parties that went above chain 40 is 30-40 secs(my 20k party was 32, 14k party was 39). That means you'd only be able to get it off once maybe twice. Once would be 8 evade down, so additional 4% hit rate. It's worth it to try and land the first one every fight, but a second one may be wasted.

Merits/Joy: I was simply giving calculations as advice to the majority of players on this board. Personally, I don't have DNC 75, neither do I have joy yet(people keep showing up halfway through window and outclaiming me Smiley: cry That, or I don't have enough help on). I do not and will not ever have 8/8 sword merits, I have 8/8 dagger and 8/8 Polearm, and the last 4 will either stay in evade or move to Katana or Marks. If DNC is your exclusive job, 8/8 dagger should be priority, then 8/8 sword makes sense. If it isn't, and BLU, RDM, WAR, and/or PLD are part of your main jobs, 8/8 sword makes sense. Others however, may have 8/8 gkt, 8/8 H2h, etc. Advising the majority of people here to use Joy because it's about even in damage and a little better in tp when you use expensive sushi and have 8/8 merits isn't very good advice.
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#64 Jan 29 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, when it comes to how Dnc is played, if the party already has a dedicated healer (like most merit parties), I will focus on damage. No point in having 2 healers, yet having a pseudo DD who can change to healing if need be is nice. That's the only reason I try so hard to be a better melee DD.

And I wasn't able to find a party today ;_;. I'll try tomorrow.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#65 Jan 30 2009 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry so much to read, did'nt realize it was answered. And I get ya. I'm up to 1.3 mill now towards Azoth and it seems to get higher and higher...
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#66 Jan 30 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I should thank you souji, I crunched the numbers on BK+1, and found out that the difference in delay is like 1/6th of a second lol. However, the damage is way different, so now I'm convinced I should invest in a BK+1, for the time being at least.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#67 Jan 30 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Salodin wrote:
Secondly, SD on top of joyeuse -does- have decreased returns because you can not double attack on a joyeuses double attack; so the only time SD has a chance to proc is when joytoy is hitting only once. So for example, if joytoy has a 50% DA rate, then the chance for saber dance to proc is only present during the other 50%. And if SD procs 50% of the time, that means in total, for the first minute or so in duration, Joytoy has a 75% DA proc, 50% native plus 25% (50% of 50%= 25% of the original value). The joytoy will always swing more often, but it's lower acc and atk is the issue.


Here's where you're making the mistake in your wording. The DOUBLE ATTACK has decreased returns, not the Joyeuse. The Joyeuse has increased returns. Whether or not those offset the naturally lower accuracy is for the slew of variables present in any given party/camp/mob combination to decide.

And on the note of Joyeuse ACC, capped skill, merits, a Suppa, and accuracy bonus traits alone push the equivalent of 255 (floored) skill. That's five points more than the B skill that WAR, at least in the past, used to make frequent use of in their Joyeuse builds. If they can swing it with that much skill and a good amount of haste gear (and they can, I've done it), we can, too. The only real difference, other than our "five point advantage," is that Aggressor is up 3/5 of the time (up to 4/5 with merits) for +25 accuracy while Lethargic Daze is up pretty much constantly (you should be opening with it) for -8-12 evasion and Closed Position can make up for up to 15 accuracy constantly (assuming correct positioning). This means that in the end, assuming you're playing the best that you can and not slacking, there's really no difference between the two jobs in terms of sword accuracy. A portion of the DNC community has basically created a random double standard on Joyeuse.

Someone earlier said that a full-Haste build Dagger/Dagger DNC can consistently outperform a Joyeuse DNC every time. That may or may not be true, at least by the numbers, but I'd like to see it in practice at several camps, just to see how they compare in execution. I can't bring myself to believe that the difference is so huge that it would happen all the time, every time, at every single possible merit camp in existence.
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#68 Jan 30 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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I have a slightly different version of the "which weapons to dual wield" question... What would be the ideal set-up to use when Azoth is not an option?

I've had 75 DNC since last spring, but I've only had a handful of opportunities to play it since dinging 75. That being said, I want it to be decently geared when I do get to play it. (Because maybe if I do well at playing it, more chances to play it in meripo will open up!) My LS doesn't fight Ixion, and I'm not spending 1.3M on a job I currently rarely play. Ermine's Tail is an option in the near future as I actively do MMM. I just got my Koggelmander, so I'm changing my rune set-up to farm for Ermine's.

Other pertinent info on my set-up. I'm 8/8 dagger and 8/8 sword. The only DNC specific merit I have is 1 upgrade in Haste Samba. (Meriting DNC is low priority, but I could at least unlock Sabre Dance if that would give me a big bang for my buck.) I own a Suppa, a Joytoy, and 23% in haste gear. In my grand total of 1 meripo I have played in, I used BK+1/Joy and crab sushi on Colibri and was disappointed. I was going to try dual daggers whenever the next meripo chance arises.
#69 Jan 30 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I have a slightly different version of the "which weapons to dual wield" question... What would be the ideal set-up to use when Azoth is not an option?


As I've just learned, BK+1 is very good. If you don't have access to azoth just yet, then Jambiya or a second BK+1 is good as well. This all changes if you get an Ermine's Tail though, since that is a very solid dagger.

Quote:
And on the note of Joyeuse ACC, capped skill, merits, a Suppa, and accuracy bonus traits alone push the equivalent of 255 (floored) skill. That's five points more than the B skill that WAR, at least in the past, used to make frequent use of in their Joyeuse builds. If they can swing it with that much skill and a good amount of haste gear (and they can, I've done it), we can, too. The only real difference, other than our "five point advantage," is that Aggressor is up 3/5 of the time (up to 4/5 with merits) for +25 accuracy while Lethargic Daze is up pretty much constantly (you should be opening with it) for -8-12 evasion and Closed Position can make up for up to 15 accuracy constantly (assuming correct positioning). This means that in the end, assuming you're playing the best that you can and not slacking, there's really no difference between the two jobs in terms of sword accuracy. A portion of the DNC community has basically created a random double standard on Joyeuse.


Even in ideal conditions, you can't rely on Closed Position to be there to increase your accuracy all the time. The only reason a job like Sam can do it is because in a lot of merit camps, they are the ones with hate most of the time. That just isn't the case with Dnc.

This is also assuming you're using Lethargic Daze, which I don't think you should always be using. I am not a very big fan of enfeebling a mob to suit only 1 person in the party that is trying to hard to use weapon it has a D skill in. In most merit parties, I will focus on using Box Step instead for the defense down. Just 1 box step is equivalent to almost a Dia II, and any subsequent box steps only lower it further. For all the earlier talk about TP gain to support the party, I think focusing on Box Step for defense down helps the party far more then a few points of evasion down to the mob.

The biggest thing with a Joyeuse build I've heard from Wars is that it is only better then a normal hit 45% of the time when it double attacks, and even then that is only if the extra hit connects. That, plus the damage from the sword is sub par compared to that of a good axe, making the use of a joyeuse that less impressive. This is different from a Ridill since the Ridill has a chance to triple attack which more then makes up for the lack of acc and attack in comparison to an axe.

Quote:

Here's where you're making the mistake in your wording. The DOUBLE ATTACK has decreased returns, not the Joyeuse. The Joyeuse has increased returns. Whether or not those offset the naturally lower accuracy is for the slew of variables present in any given party/camp/mob combination to decide.


Yes...and that's what I said o_O SD (Saber Dance) has decreased returns because it can not proc as often. I didn't say Joyeuse has decreased returns, I said the double attack, which is part of the lure of a Joyeuse, has decreased returns. I hope you understand what I'm saying lol.

Edited, Jan 30th 2009 1:20pm by Salodin

Edited, Jan 30th 2009 1:25pm by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#70 Jan 30 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The biggest thing with a Joyeuse build I've heard from Wars is that it is only better then a normal hit 45% of the time when it double attacks, and even then that is only if the extra hit connects. That, plus the damage from the sword is sub par compared to that of a good axe, making the use of a joyeuse that less impressive.

It's also different from WARs because they trade off not just the acc/atk from lower skill, but also lower weapon damage from not using an axe. D35 Joy vs a D31-34 dagger is pretty close there, but D35 Joy vs a D46-50 axe is a much bigger difference in base damage alone.
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#72 Jan 30 2009 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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rdmdontdie wrote:
Anyhow, I wasn't directing anything at you Souji except for the missing haste calculation (15% from the mage). These numbers were meant fo everyones benefit, and unfortunately were side tracked by someone else. Anyhow good luck with your trip to 75 and getting a Joyeuse.
Don't worry, I wasn't taking much offense, just figured I'd answer anyway. Thanks, I hope to get it this weekend, going to try to camp it again.
Salodin wrote:
I should thank you souji, I crunched the numbers on BK+1, and found out that the difference in delay is like 1/6th of a second lol. However, the damage is way different, so now I'm convinced I should invest in a BK+1, for the time being at least.
np, I'm here to help ^^

Davrost wrote:
Someone earlier said that a full-Haste build Dagger/Dagger DNC can consistently outperform a Joyeuse DNC every time. That may or may not be true, at least by the numbers, but I'd like to see it in practice at several camps, just to see how they compare in execution. I can't bring myself to believe that the difference is so huge that it would happen all the time, every time, at every single possible merit camp in existence.
I agree it isn't all encompassing, but I believe Colibri is the best or second best place that Joyeuse performs(despite my opinion of it being not enough). The only other place that comes to mind is Mire, but I hate that place with a passion so don't care much :P Mamool and trolls will have higher defense and evade, so you will see an amplification of the problems lower skill presents.
Lady Karlina wrote:
Quote:
The biggest thing with a Joyeuse build I've heard from Wars is that it is only better then a normal hit 45% of the time when it double attacks, and even then that is only if the extra hit connects. That, plus the damage from the sword is sub par compared to that of a good axe, making the use of a joyeuse that less impressive.

It's also different from WARs because they trade off not just the acc/atk from lower skill, but also lower weapon damage from not using an axe. D35 Joy vs a D31-34 dagger is pretty close there, but D35 Joy vs a D46-50 axe is a much bigger difference in base damage alone.

Further on this, I remember misquoting lolgaxe once in saying that Axe/Ridill outperformed Bravura, but he corrected me and stated that his choice of merits is what made that true for him in particular. This applies also to WAR using Joy, for it to be worth it they have to rely heavily on Bergressor merits. However, if you look at this thread about merits, you'll see they did some number crunching and found 5DA/5Berserk to pretty much be the best set for merits on almost any equip set, Axe/Joy included. This means the ATK gotten from Berserk is what helps that build more than probably the acc gained from Aggressor(which they will still have 3/5). They didn't compare 5DA/5Ag, but Berserk is an extremely powerful tool, and as I showed earlier, ATK definitely has an impact. The ATK is something DNC's abilities and traits cannot make up for. They also start at a higher ATK rating.

Lastly, a WAR will have alot better equip for making up that difference, B.Haidate gives 7 acc while giving the large haste, Haub on body is close to DNC's body, but especially on a multihit weapon, the 5STR isn't made up for. fSTR will apply to each hit, enhancing it's affect. There's also argument that Axe/Joy isn't really worth it while Axe/Ridill is(I won't give an opinion there, not a war and never calced it). All in all, WAR is much better suited to use multiatk swords than DNC or THF.

Edited, Jan 30th 2009 6:01pm by Souji

Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 1:36am by Souji
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#73 Jan 31 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Salodin wrote:
This is also assuming you're using Lethargic Daze, which I don't think you should always be using. I am not a very big fan of enfeebling a mob to suit only 1 person in the party that is trying to hard to use weapon it has a D skill in.


Personally, as a WAR raised on Shield Break, I'm convinced that if you're not lowing enemy evasion, ure not doin it rite. Especially on some of the higher evasion merit mobs like colibri and Mamool, where the differences in missing an entire hit or hitting only slightly harder are much more noticeable in the time it takes for something to die. Even in earlier levels where I was dual wielding daggers with dagger merits, I still focused on Quickstep and (before Reverse Flourish) Desperate Flourish as a means of improving overall party DPS and killspeed.

Anyway, on the note of Joyeuse attack, I was fairly convinced we gave up on DNC DoT and the only reason we used it was to benefit our TP gain for either waltzes or WSs. We're a melee class with a B+ rank in our highest weapon skill, which happens to be the lowest damage weapon in the game. Since when did DoT become something we were convinced mattered to us? I mean, I'll give you that other jobs can make a similar setup work better by having higher attack and fSTR checks, but I was under the impression that it really didn't matter for DNC because it wasn't a straight DD class, but a multi-talented hybrid class with more than one use for its abundance of TP. Isn't that why we have a split in the community about whether building for Store TP or Haste is better, given that they'll both improve TP gain but one also improves DoT, yet we still can't reach a decision?

Oh, and Salodin, you're right. I misread. Apparently, 11:30 AM was still too early for me to be posting.
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#74 Jan 31 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Davrost wrote:
Personally, as a WAR raised on Shield Break, I'm convinced that if you're not lowing enemy evasion, ure not doin it rite. Especially on some of the higher evasion merit mobs like colibri and Mamool, where the differences in missing an entire hit or hitting only slightly harder are much more noticeable in the time it takes for something to die.

Not sure where everyone keeps saying Colibri is a higher evasion mob. Only things lower than them(that you'd be judging your gear on) are really Puks and Mire. You may fight Puks when fighting mamool, but your acc should be geared for mamool, not the Puks. While some Mamool have lower evade, atleast half of them have higher evade. I always gear myself for the hardest enemy I'll fight in the camp, or atleast have gear available to swap on different on different targets. You can't do this with weapon, so for the sake of this discussion, Mamool shouldn't matter, as Joy is going to be that much worse on them.
Davrost wrote:
Anyway, on the note of Joyeuse attack, I was fairly convinced we gave up on DNC DoT and the only reason we used it was to benefit our TP gain for either waltzes or WSs. We're a melee class with a B+ rank in our highest weapon skill, which happens to be the lowest damage weapon in the game. Since when did DoT become something we were convinced mattered to us? I mean, I'll give you that other jobs can make a similar setup work better by having higher attack and fSTR checks, but I was under the impression that it really didn't matter for DNC because it wasn't a straight DD class, but a multi-talented hybrid class with more than one use for its abundance of TP. Isn't that why we have a split in the community about whether building for Store TP or Haste is better, given that they'll both improve TP gain but one also improves DoT, yet we still can't reach a decision?
Depends on party makeup, and the need for heals. However, I don't see the point of giving up DoT for extra TP unless the party is hurting for heals and the DNC is hurting for TP. If the DNC has enough tp to WS, he doesn't need joy. Joy only catches up to DNC when spamming ws every 100 and not saving. The more you save tp, the more the damage done from the melee DoT which is superior for dag/dag outclasses Joy. Extra TP is a waste if it isn't being used. If you're waiting a bit to see if it's safe or to throw out an extra cure before WS, you can do the same with dag/dag, and provide more to the group because you're contributing damage.

You shouldn't underestimate the desire to have support classes adding to damage as much as they can either. A COR that isn't shooting or using Slugshot in meits is a crappy COR. He'll increase kill rate by having appropriate gear and increasing killspeed. A PLD should be using a DD setup in merits as well, swordchucking it up and using Haub, acc rings, etc. A NIN using evade tanking gear in merits would be laughable. Why should DNC be any different? You're a Healer/DD or DD/Healer. You should do the best to increase the DD side, you can perform the other functions just as easily with Dag/Dag, and contribute more to the party that way as well.
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#75 Feb 01 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Even if you don't think they're that evasive, you have to admit that colibri are on the high end of the merit mob evasion scale. The bulk of merit mobs aren't as evasive as they are. Admittedly, that does partially stem from an unwillingness of a lot of jobs to use more effective accuracy foods due to having them eaten frequently mid-fight, but that's a function of the mob and it should factor into a party's ability to deal with them regularly. Even if you're popping cheap crab sushi, it can still get eaten mid-fight, potentially leaving you shorter on accuracy than some of your other party members until you can get some back up (which can be difficult between damage mitigation attempts, especially in TP burns where Pecking Flurry can ruin your day).

As for support jobs dealing extra damage, that's what Joyeuse is for. If you're finding yourself storing up more TP than you're using on Sambas, Steps, and Waltzes, then start spending the extra on DEs. Just because you're giving up DoT for TP gain doesn't mean you have to give up on damage entirely. It's probably personal preference on my part, but I've always felt that gearing for TP gain (Joyeuse, Accuracy, Store TP) benefited both the party and me as an individual better than gearing for DoT/DPS (offhand dagger, STR, Attack) because I'd rather be building excess TP with lower DoT than having improved DoT but risk coming up short on TP when I or the party needed it. The loss of DoT could always be poured back into mobs via extra DEs if I had enough to spare, so I never felt like I was giving up that much. You know, it's probably my OCD speaking, anyway. I like to be more focused on what COULD happen than what IS happening, leaning toward stocking up on TP more than contributing a bit of extra damage over a fight.

The more I think about it, the trickier the problem becomes and the more I want to say "It's just a matter of preference." The fact of the matter is that this isn't a dilemma that any other melee job has to deal with. They have one use and one use only for their TP. (Well, BLU has a sort of secondary use with Chain Affinity, but in the end, it's still just a way to increase damage over the course of a party.) I think it boils down to how you want to play: Do you want to play as a DNC, building TP for your JAs and using the spare for damage, or do you want to play as a melee, focusing on DoT and letting the TP come to you at a standard rate? I guess neither side is going to concede to the other on this one. There's a legitimate, logical use for Joyeuse within the proper setting, and there's no shame in wanting to push offhand accuracy and DoT. This will probably be the discussion for our job that'll never die over the course of several years. Every job has one XD
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#76 Feb 01 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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Davrost wrote:
Even if you don't think they're that evasive, you have to admit that colibri are on the high end of the merit mob evasion scale. The bulk of merit mobs aren't as evasive as they are. Admittedly, that does partially stem from an unwillingness of a lot of jobs to use more effective accuracy foods due to having them eaten frequently mid-fight, but that's a function of the mob and it should factor into a party's ability to deal with them regularly. Even if you're popping cheap crab sushi, it can still get eaten mid-fight, potentially leaving you shorter on accuracy than some of your other party members until you can get some back up (which can be difficult between damage mitigation attempts, especially in TP burns where Pecking Flurry can ruin your day).

Personally, since crab sushi came out, I've only merited on NIN and THF at colibri. Both have horrible acc without the crab sushi. I have several parses after using it for both, and they go something like so:
NIN: 24 Crab sushi used in ~1 hour, 89% average acc(this is where I calc it)
THF: 29 crab sushi used in 1h24m, 88.07% average acc
THF: 21 crab sushi used in 1h50m, 87.88% average acc

In the NIN party I was voking, so had majority hate, in the first THF party I was going all out and had majority hate, and the second one I had the second most hate, explaining why so much food lost. However, I calc crab sushi to give me a benefit of around 88% for both classes, and as you can see, although I got it stolen often, It had almost no effect. We had BRD in all 3 parties I believe, but we never had madrigal, Minuet and March, and the first THF had COR as well, SAM roll and Chaos Roll. If you're quick on your response, it doesn't take long to repop food.

Davrost wrote:
This will probably be the discussion for our job that'll never die over the course of several years. Every job has one XD

Probably so. The DNC will either have to gear for tp sacrificing haste(our calcs didn't include that) or a BRD or external source will have to waste a song giving unneeded acc(if you have a good party). I've partied with 2h and such that needed acc help too, but to me, that just shows people who don't know how to gear their classes. At this point though, the math and reasoning has been shown, so anyone who doesn't agree, it's their own choice and opinions. I'll leave it at that.
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#77 Feb 03 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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OK! I just got out of a merit party on Colibri, and tried a few different things. First off, I'd just like to say that while my point of view on the subject is obvious, I'm still trying hard to be as unbiased as possible and give as fair a result to any and all tests I do on the matter.

That being said, I did 2 melee setups. Neither included Joyeuse, since I forgot it in MH. The knifes I were using was Jambiya/BK+1. The first SS is with my in my "Haste/Accuracy" TP build. This includes:

Head: Walahra Turban
Ammo: Tiphia Sting
Body: Pahluwan Khthingymajig
Neck: Chiv Chain
Ear1/2: Suppanomimi/Minuet Earring
Hands: Cobra glove thingy
Ring1/2: Woodsman/Woodsman
Back: Amemet Mantle
Waist: Swift Belt
Legs: Enkidu Subligar
Feet: Dancer's toe shoes

My acc was utterly HORRIBLE for the first 15min of the party. I was parsing 76% during that portion. Why? Because I had the bright idea of eatting a meat mithkabob, trying to increase damage. Wrong idea salo. First 5min I was at 70% acc using my full haste build (see below). I said oh crap, then switched to Haste/Accuracy. 10min pass after restarting the parser and I'm only at 76%, I say @#%^ing A, so I take hate to lose my food (which was a 5min ordeal cause I couldn't hit often enough to WS at the right time to pull hate), then switch to crab sushi. Here are the results with Crab Sushi + Haste/Accuracy build:

First run

During the first part of this test, I parsed at 92.5%, using crab sushi + Haste/Accuracy build + dual daggers. The bard in the party was using double haste, which worked out in my favor so that I could better show how acc is on these mobs through application, rather then math on a forum lol.

Second part of this. The War and Drg had to leave, so we repped them with a Drg and Sam. Everything stayed the same, except now I went full haste + crab sushi. At times the Brd switched it to atk + haste songs, but never used any acc songs, so none of these results are skewed. My haste setup is this:

Head: Walahra Turban
Ammo: Tiphia Sting
Body: Rapparee harness
Neck: Chiv Chain
Ear1/2: Suppanomimi/Minuet Earring
Hands: Cobra glove thingy
Ring1/2: Woodsman/Woodsman
Back: Amemet Mantle
Waist: Swift Belt
Legs: Enkidu Subligar
Feet: Dancer's toe shoes

Second parse

My acc went down almost exactly 10% with the full haste gear. In hind sight I should have probably kept with haste/accuracy setup, but for the sake of parsing I kept it like this. Nothing else much to say about that parse.

So, in short, with just 3 pieces of haste gear, my acc with crab sushi is at a paltry 82%. I don't recall what was said earlier about acc gear on the off-hand joyeuse build, but if daggers are barely hitting that high with just 13% haste, what the hell will a sword on dnc be hitting? The air more then likely...

Once again, I'll say, if you try to use a joyeuse, you will have to sacrifice so much haste gear to make the acc viable, that it defeats the purpose entirely in the majority of situations. My acc gear isn't the best, but it's far from worse, and having that low of an acc% with only 3 pieces of haste gear equipped, I don't see how any one can choose joyeuse in the vast majority of situations.

EDIT: Ok, I found the post earlier about having 21% haste and using joyeuse with bream sushi +1. With your dex Rdmdontdie (65), any one without any sword merits would have acc ranging from 68.4%-72.9%. With max merits, it's 76.8%-81.3%.

Take away bream sushi+1 (seriously, why are we bream sushi+1?), and the acc WITH 8/8 sword merits ranges from 48.3%-52.8%. Ugh, just...ugh...

Thank you to Aquafis for loading up his FFXI Calculator and doing all that math for me.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 4:01pm by Salodin

Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 4:05pm by Salodin
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#78 Feb 03 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Salodin; it's interesting to notice how getting march+march and Pahluwan body, you had 92% accuracy, while march+minuet and Rap body you had 82%.

Losing 7 accuracy (Pahluwan body without minuet >> Rap body + minuet) should have lowered your accuracy to 88.5%.

Something else changed, perhaps something uncontrollable, like the mob's levels, or you changed something else that you didn't list.
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#79 Feb 03 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Like I said, he didn't use atk+haste much, so the acc boost from the earring didn't take into effect much. The only time he used the atk song was during 1 Wivre pull, and 3 Mamool pulls. I only listed that fact since it only affected the parse ever so slightly, yet it affects it and I felt it's only fair to tell you as much as I can. I wish I could have stopped the parse during those fights, but with things moving so fast I couldn't.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 4:10pm by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#80 Feb 03 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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You still should have ended up with 87% accuracy without minuet earring's bonus; you're taking a 5% accuracy or "10 accuracy" deficit there from "Something".

Removing SH or Pahluwan body in favor of Rap = -5% to your hit rate, not -10%. It's the only piece you seem to have changed.
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#81 Feb 03 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm having this conversation on AIM with a friend using an FFXI Calculator, and I pointed that very thing out and he said "Yeah, 10acc does that much to you, with your dex and dagger skill".

Also, to note, one of those mamool was a lurker, and we took a good deal of time to take him out at the end. I remember nothing but miss miss miss miss from everyone, yet it was only 1 mob out of quite a few dozen, so it'd lower my acc slightly, and with the Brd dying while pulling it, we had no way to gain more acc.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 4:13pm by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#82 Feb 03 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Salodin's Friend wrote:
"Yeah, 10acc does that much to you, with your dex and dagger skill".

To be nitpicky about this, 10 accuracy doesn't do that much to anyone, your dex and skill doesn't matter. You could have 0 Dex or 0 skill, removing 10 accuracy will do one thing: reduce your hit rate by 5%. Each 2 point of accuracy on gear will simply improve your hit rate by 1%, unless your accuracy is so low you're "Capped" at 20% hit rate (minimum).

Which means, the only time trading your SH for a Rap harness will not lower your accuracy by 5% is if you're hovering between 20 and 24% hit rate to begin with, or if you're already at 95% hit rate without SH (unlikely on anything that matters).

Your accuracy can easily drop of 5% from a parse to another depending on the level mobs chose to spawn at and the % of lurkers that were puller. In your 2nd parse (where you were wearing rap), one of your damage dealer was truly exceptional; it gives me the impression your kill speed improved during that time, which would in turn end with the bard pulling more lurkers (avoided in the first parse), which would in turn lower your overall accuracy.

You may also have changed between box and quick step between both parses. Lethargic Daze (Level 1) is 4% hit rate by itself.
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#83 Feb 03 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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The second set of dds were definitely better overall. As far as kill rate, it was slightly better on second set, which led to desperation in pulling a Wivre and some mamools. I tried to stick with box step as much as I could, sans the Mamools, especially Lurker.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#84 Feb 04 2009 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Kasumuni wrote:
If you have time and some friends + 16 hours of ur life staring at a screen, get a joyeuse.

It's really not as bad as you make it if you have ToD.
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#85 Feb 05 2009 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

It's really not as bad as you make it if you have ToD.


I got ToD the other week. The next morning i had to work thereby losing the ToD. That evening my friends who told me they would help had endgame sh*t to do thereby making all my efforts useless.

SE needs to make every singe NM (that isn't like 1-2 hour pop) in the game force pop and only control its rarity by the rate at which the pop item drops. There is no way someone employed at a normal job can keep track of the ToD without other people watching it at the other half of the clock.

And before you say do it on the weekend, when do you think those same friends are most busy with endgame AND the room most packed with people...

Edited, Feb 5th 2009 10:17am by RattyBatty
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#86 Feb 05 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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RattyBatty wrote:
SE needs to make every singe NM (that isn't like 1-2 hour pop) in the game force pop and only control its rarity by the rate at which the pop item drops. There is no way someone employed at a normal job can keep track of the ToD without other people watching it at the other half of the clock.


argusplz

Also, it's easy to get the ToD. Just AFK in the hallway before the room and check your chat log when you get back. Make a note of what time you went AFK ("/clock on" helps) and count the number of conquest updates (hourly on the dot) since you went afk before the NM's death shows up in the log. It's not 100% accurate, but with a huge window like that, it's accurate enough. If you do want pure accuracy, though, Windower's time stamp plugin will do that for you, if you're not opposed to it.
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#87 Feb 05 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Good advice and I might try it when im ready to solo him (i hate relying on people they just let you down as in my example).

But still just because we can sidestep our way around a bad design, doesn't mean it shouldnt be changed amirite ;)
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#88 Mar 05 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
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My response compleatly lacks any scientific backing but uses a fairly decent amount of logic.

If you already have The Joy and have room or pre-existing sword merits + Suppa Go dagger/joy. If you don't feel like gearing up specifically to support your offhand weapon or have no room left for merits in combat skill Go dagger/dagger.

Or be a STUD, and do both!

I chose the dagger/dagger path myself, having DRG taking up merit space and sharing a Love Torque gives me Dagger Skill 279.
#89 Mar 06 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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i think people are just WAAAY over-analyzing this.

If you have a joyeuse, and accuracy is not an issue, then use it. If accuracy is an issue, use dagger. End of story.

I have a joyeuse and am currently lvl 71 with 8/8 sword. I offhand it because I have zero problems with accuracy. I imagine at 75 and Saber Dance I'll offhand a dagger fore merit stuff, but I'll still go /joyeuse for any solo stuff.
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#90 Mar 06 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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jschaub wrote:
I have a joyeuse and am currently lvl 71 with 8/8 sword. I offhand it because I have zero problems with accuracy.

This is completely dependent on how you define "problems with accuracy". If you're eyeballing, eh, not trustworthy. If you're parsing and you have a range of accuracy you view as acceptable, then that's your choice, but your statement is misleading and should be corrected. If you parse at something like 90%+ total acc, then great(but sorta unbelievable, I used sushi on THF while leveling will full dagger merits and was almost never at the cap).

Lastly, if you're saying you always have enough tp to heal and ws fairly often, then that's a combination of eyeballing and what you yourself consider acceptable. The suggestions I and several others made in this thread were to help people max out their performance, and telling them which is better to use. If there are preferences due to it being acceptable and you just prefer to use it that way, or solo play etc, we aren't trying to stop you(well, maybe, if you really really suck in a merit party :P). As long as you aren't dragging the party back, then it isn't too big of a deal.

Also, I stand by all my statements above :P
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#91 Mar 22 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Default
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139 posts
I found best combo for me for solo Azoth/Ermine's Tail and for Merit Azoth/Matron's Knife and I may sell the Azoth to fund a Roundel Earring and go Ermine's Tail/Matron's Knife full time. Though that Azoth would be hard for me to part with.
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