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#27 Jan 08 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Considering on MY DNC I plan to 5/5 Saber Dance to essentially have 30%+ Double Attack at all times while being DD, Joyuese to me looses its value a bit. Now before Saber Dance **** yeh the added double attack is phenominal. After that though Id probably rather be in a Azoth/Ermines=BK+1-CUK setup. While close to capped haste is great and all the fact that DNC can achieve a high double attack rate might make up some of this slightly. And considering given acc bonus traits if you can hit near 95%acc on birds then atk food might be a greta option. By since I though the testing that Souji did was nice I have been considering DNC/WAR, DNC/DRK, and DNC/SAM one hand builds. For this build Saber Dance would be even more crucial but the main things behind these builds would be for endgame as /NIN on lets say an HNM wouldnt be as useful some of the time and you would need the higher atk(berserk,soul eater, last resort etc) to do a good amount of base damage to actually get TP.
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#28 Jan 08 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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So in the end, it's basically down to preference, with dag/dag, as expected and pointed out, edging out joytoy as the haste stacks.

I don't have room for sword merits. So I probably won't bother with joyeuse if I ever decide to merit again. Haven't been in a merit pt for 1 year ._.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 2:36pm by woooter
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#29 Jan 08 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Same here wooter just been solo/campaign the merits. I am doing 8/8 sword merits because of BLU and I like swords, but this will help my DNC as well until I build up Saber Dance. Thinking of doing 5/5 Saber, 4/5 No foot Rise, 1/5 Fan for oshi
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#30 Jan 08 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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Souji, those are much more respectable numbers. I only made a fuss about it because Colibri are a TERRIBLE way to calculate or parse ANYTHING, because their ungodly evasion skews results in generally unrealistic directions. Most things just aren't that evasive.

I do have to correct you on one thing, though. Joyeuse DOES stack with DA/TA gear and traits, but only on the condition that Joyeuse's native DA did not occur. If the randomization sets out a single attack, THEN traits come into play. Saber Dance, therefore, gives Joyeuse a roughly 75% DA rate (50% for the initial DA check, 50% for the single hit check should that fail) upon Saber Dance's initial activation (77.5% with Brutal), dwindling to, if I'm not mistaken, 55% (57.5% with Brutal) just before it wears off. I'm not entirely sure how that affects Dagger/Dagger vs. Dagger/Joyeuse calculations, but it's definitely something worth mentioning.

In the end, though, as others have said, it does more or less come down to preference.
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#31 Jan 08 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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All really good info from you guys. It has helped me kinda decide to go with dag/dag unless I am messing or farming smaller stuff. I really have appreciated all the help you guys have left. One thing though that has not been answered is what do you personally prefer to use on your DNC. I know the math is important and getting good acc against colibri is nice, but I merit on RDM if I want/need merits or I solo on BLU, so what is your preference of daggers and swords. All opinions on weapon choices welcome!
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#32 Jan 08 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Any thing that doesn't evade much, joyeuse off hand is going to shine. Accuracy is the only issue at hand when comparing it in merit or end game situations, and if that isn't an issue then joyeuse off hand is the best option. TP gain can't be beat using that sword (unless you have ridill or something, duh).

Other then that, I off-hand CUK for the low delay to boost TP gain, at least until I get ermine's tail. Then I might go Tail/Jambiya, Azoth/Tail, or Tail/Joyeuse, depending on situation and my current gil situation >_>...
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#33 Jan 08 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's pretty much a given that you'll be using sushi with Joyeuse


Or daggers and haste gear with meat.
#34 Jan 08 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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Davrost wrote:
Souji, those are much more respectable numbers. I only made a fuss about it because Colibri are a TERRIBLE way to calculate or parse ANYTHING, because their ungodly evasion skews results in generally unrealistic directions. Most things just aren't that evasive.


I really only see a point to calculate for accuracy against stuff you'll merit against. Gods and HNM will generally be evasive, whereas solo and campaign and low man will generally be less evasive. However, as merit mobs go, Colibri aren't that evasive. They're about middle ground. Mamool can range to below or greatly above(Colibri are 339 max, Mamool 434 max, ~318 for lowest mage, and up to 344 for middle ground ones like BST). I don't know the stats for Troll, but I recall people mentioning they can be fairly evasive as well. I think colibri are a great monster to calc on, due to the popularity, and the low def/middleground evade. Parsing gets skewed because their actions lower the damage of the best dds however, so I agree there. The evasive perception probably comes from the fact that people who would normally use sushi do not, because they don't want to use food that will get eaten.

Davrost wrote:
I do have to correct you on one thing, though. Joyeuse DOES stack with DA/TA gear and traits, but only on the condition that Joyeuse's native DA did not occur. If the randomization sets out a single attack, THEN traits come into play. Saber Dance, therefore, gives Joyeuse a roughly 75% DA rate (50% for the initial DA check, 50% for the single hit check should that fail) upon Saber Dance's initial activation (77.5% with Brutal), dwindling to, if I'm not mistaken, 55% (57.5% with Brutal) just before it wears off. I'm not entirely sure how that affects Dagger/Dagger vs. Dagger/Joyeuse calculations, but it's definitely something worth mentioning.


Hmm, this one is alot harder. I'm not sure how to calc it, and while that seems correct, I'm having reservations. Possibly just because of weapons with more than two different types of attacks, like Soboro, where adding more DA decreases two sides, one of which was 3A. Well, to start, if it DOES work that way, then the calcs remain the same, it'll affect Dag/Dag the same it affects Dag/Joy. I guess I'm just seeing it as more complicated than it is.
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#35 Jan 09 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I think it's partly the lack of sushi and partly that colibri really are just naturally more evasive than a lot of merit mobs like puks, wyverns... anything-in-Caedarva-not-that-anyone-merits-there-anymore. You're right that they're a popular choice, though, much to the dismay of several thousand FFXI players, myself included.

We're probably both overthinking the Saber Dance thing XD
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#36 Jan 09 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Davrost wrote:
I think it's partly the lack of sushi and partly that colibri really are just naturally more evasive than a lot of merit mobs like puks, wyverns... anything-in-Caedarva-not-that-anyone-merits-there-anymore. You're right that they're a popular choice, though, much to the dismay of several thousand FFXI players, myself included.

We're probably both overthinking the Saber Dance thing XD

Ah right, I completely forgot about Caedarva. After playing RDM and BRD to 75, I hate that place, with a passion. I mostly merit on DRG, and occasionally on BRD and NIN, so I'm usually either up against Mamool or Birds. Puk's I view as fodder between mamool pulls, so I don't count them much. I wasn't sure on Skoffin evade, I'm usually BRD when I'm at Mamool Ja Staging point. So to me, those are the usual types I'd calc against, and what I consider as what matters. I'd think DNCs would hate mire as much as me though, with the amnesia thing.

Also, still touting crab sushi. I think they're awesome, I was dreading Colibri before as THF and NIN(wasn't even planning to really merit on NIN) then found out about these. Tried em on my NIN, had an awesome time, I got 88.5% acc without brd(we had 2 brds though, so parse had acc at 94%) and it cost me 10k total for 23k exp over the course of ~1:20(little less). I'm the type who has to use food no matter what, so I always spam mithkabobs normally. This sushi costing the same price is very good news for my 1h classes.
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#37 Jan 10 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I just found out about them, too. Great stuff.

As far as wyverns, I'm not terribly sure myself (as it's been ages since I've been to MJSP, last time I was there was the party I hit DNC75 in and I don't think we fought any). Most parties are afraid to fight them. I don't remember them being painfully evasive unless they put up Wind Wall, though.
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Character Name: Davrost
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Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
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#38 Jan 10 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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In addition to this I would mind seeing some One Hand builds for HNM and things with high def. I would like to see what a DNC/WAR or DNC/SAM looks like if you guys have tried it before. Also considering DNC/DRK might have some potential. Im guessing shield is Airy Buckler hands down :P
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#39 Jan 27 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I just tested Koggelmander intimidation rate (albeit only on EP spiders) just now.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=16;mid=1229535166129144976;page=2;howmany=50#m1233082585264409148

If the intimidation rate doesn't change much as the level goes up, it seems that Ermine's Tail is a superb weapon for DNC soloing.
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#40 Jan 27 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Why use a cobra knife over at least a Behemoth NQ. Not knocking those that do, but I don't really get it? Compared to others.
Also I'm dieing for an Azoth and Ermine also drooolll :)
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#42 Jan 27 2009 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmdontdie wrote:
However with Saber Dance all bets are off, just go with big daggers, Joy is nice to have if you have it, but once you get the ~30% kicker from Saber Dance DA It really loses a lot of its luster.


I keep seeing people say that SD somehow nullifies the DA rate of Joyeuse, but unless it somehow works differently than any other DA in the game, Joyeuse should still be swinging way more than anything else under the effect of SD. I can't test personally because DNC merits are low on my list of priorities, but surely SOMEONE can come in here and either say "Yeah, Joyeuse has a 55-75% DA rate during SD" or "No, Joyeuse still just has a 50% DA rate." I have faith that the former will hold true, with Joyeuse holding a 55-75% DA rate under SD while daggers hold 10-50%.
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Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
Server: Gilgamesh
Current Job: BLU
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
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#43 Jan 27 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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It has a higher activation rate, but it is still only with the lower acc and atk of a Sword. And that is only for the first minute or so of SD, then it drops down to barely larger then normal joytoy activation.
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#45 Jan 28 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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You do have decreasing returns, which makes it sad on a lower acc weapon. I just would never set up my gear in order to keep a joytoy in my off hand slot. There are so many better options in the lvl 75 range that are just awesome, while still giving us the max acc/atk we can have on the weapons.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#46 Jan 28 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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This is a reply to rdmdontdie. I've been meaning to reply but I usually only go on the forums at work, and I've been in training keeping me away from PC. Anyway,
first, as to the delay issue, you're doing a few things of.f DW and Haste is a reduction, so when you truncate, you truncate the reduction, not the result. Therefore, the way we do it, you should be doing ceiling instead of floor.

Of course, this only changes the result slightly, so the main thing would be the Haste Samba. I wasn't aware of this, but do you have proof? If it's applied to the weapon first directly, then it should reduce your tp like DW does. This should be incredibly easy to test actually, just get a delay range where you get 5.0 tp a hit, then apply haste samba. If your delay comes down, then it applies first.

I don't believe this is the case however, or SAMs would not want a DNC in their party. SAMs strive for a 6-hit build, and a reduction in TP would kill that, lowering their damage more than (atleast an unmerited) haste samba would probably help. Going from 7-hit to 6-hit is a 16.7% increase in WS frequency, and their WS tend to make up 60% or more of their damage, so it's basically ~10% increase in DoT. Fully merited it may be worth the trade off, but otherwise, I'd be upset as a SAM. I haven't seen any complaints about it, which is where I have my reservations. If I get the testing conditions, I'll try it myself. Alternatively, if you or someone else can do the same test and show it as proof, I'll accept it.

___________________________________________________________________________

Now, to address some other points of yours and others in here... first choice of weapon and food: Weapon was chosen because someone else suggested it. Personally, I'd never use CUK. As a THF, I'm used to choosing daggers for performance overall rather than just tp generation, so I'd go BK+1 2x or with Jamibiya, until I could get Azoth/Ermine.

As for food, I chose crab sushi specifically because it was cheap and easy for everyone to use. As a RDM, you can use bream sushi +1 on birds because you probably don't take as much hate. A DNC probably wouldn't as well. However, people who don't take much hate still avoid using food on Colibri, which, with the addition of crab sushi, I think is unacceptable. I play with NIN, THF, DRG, all classes where I either easily have hate a majority of the time or strive to take hate as much as possible(with THF evade and shadows, no reason not to take hate. I never TAWS, only solo and SAWS, unless TAWS will kill the bird). Hence, on THF and NIN I use crab sushi and on DRG mithkabobs. I'm not going to calc to a higher standard than I use, which isn't too expensive.

Lets hope this doesn't look like too horrid a WoT when I post...


Edited, Jan 28th 2009 1:34pm by Souji
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#48 Jan 28 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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rdmdontdie wrote:
Souji no I made a mistake with my understanding of how the website worded it. It works just like SAM, which in the end it does not make any real difference in fact I think doing them all at once gives you the same rate. I also noticed however you didn't include Haste the spell I don't know if it was an oversight or not, or you just don't see it often. I know I have to ask mages to haste me which is kind of irritating sometimes since I am supporting them. Anyhow I did some looking into it TP is not decreased so it does not work like DW and therefore must be lumped in with the remaining haste.
Ah. Thanks for checking, good to have it clear. About my not adding haste in, I think I just neglected to add it from laziness, not sure. While I do have a harder time getting haste in parties recently, it should be expected. I don't remember the exact reason.
rdmdontdie wrote:
Also in regards to the BS+1 ever since I started on my RDM melee career I have leveled cooking to make it myself (far cheeper that way.) As for hate pulling, just like any job RDM and DNC both take hate when they WS (due to the nature of tankless TP burn style.) Birds ocasionally Nab my food, or take my TP (why I wait a few seconds before RF on DNC just incase), or ram a PF down my throat. Personally the reason I use Bream +1 is solely for the use of the joytoy, for reasons outlined above. Droping WS's (back to back sometimes depending on WS TP return and Subsequent attack round +RF) and having "free" TP from the Joy DA is just to much for me to pass up.
Yeah, I'm sure if you have cooking and fishing(not sure if you do) it would be alot cheaper. I was kinda just going with what I can expect people to use, even if I were able to afford something better(I'm pretty bad at making money so I'd rather use crab, but I could possibly afford to use squid with some extra work).
rdmdontdie wrote:
This also stems from my RDM melee where in certain camps I would /DNC for ACC increase and free erase (hi2u dirty mamools), I found the DA on Joyeuse then allowed me to keep "free" TP to apply Samba, do some Cures etc. If SE knew what was what they would make a Joyeuse equivelent dagger (ie. one with decent DMG unlike Mkris).

This is the part of the discussion where I have less of the experience, from a DD only prospective, Dag/Dag will beat Dag/Joy even with a specialized setup, if only for the ATK. WS will be close to the same, but the increase frequency shouldn't make up for the damage, because classes like THF, DNC, NIN, MNK all have a much higher % of damage from melee than they do WS. My NIN, Melee/WS ratio, is between 80/20 and 70/30; THF is usually around 60/40, and MNKs are usually similar to my NIN stats. I can only assume DNC is probably the same, especially since you'll use tp up for heals and other things along the way which will increase time spent meleeing vs WSing.

However, if you want to be able to have extra tp in short amounts of time, and are not in a group with a large amount of haste making haste more worth it, there may be merit in using a acc heavy joy setup. I personally wouldn't still I think, but at that point alone I could agree it's a choice matter.

edit: Moved a response to a more appropriate location


Edited, Jan 28th 2009 3:23pm by Souji
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#49 Jan 28 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, a few things I'm just gonna throw out since some people don't seem to realize it.

Haste, no matter what the form, is always applied at the end. So Haste Samba would be applied at the end of any delay calculation, and also does -not- affect TP return.

Secondly, SD on top of joyeuse -does- have decreased returns because you can not double attack on a joyeuses double attack; so the only time SD has a chance to proc is when joytoy is hitting only once. So for example, if joytoy has a 50% DA rate, then the chance for saber dance to proc is only present during the other 50%. And if SD procs 50% of the time, that means in total, for the first minute or so in duration, Joytoy has a 75% DA proc, 50% native plus 25% (50% of 50%= 25% of the original value). The joytoy will always swing more often, but it's lower acc and atk is the issue.

And just a fun fact, parsing myself in merit parties on non-flying mobs with double dagger (Jambiya + CUF), my melee/ws damage ratio is about 1:1 lol.

Edited, Jan 28th 2009 3:52pm by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#50 Jan 28 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Salodin wrote:
And just a fun fact, parsing myself in merit parties on non-flying mobs with double dagger (Jambiya + CUF), my melee/ws damage ratio is about 1:1 lol.


Thats pretty surprising from a DW job, but I don't have DNC that level so wouldn't know. Does anyone else see the same thing from their parses? Would be nice to see a few different people show them, so we can see an average.
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