Dual Wield Weapon set at 75Follow

Azoth/BK+1 for DD. I offhand Stun Kukri +1 when I solo hard stuff. When you can get your hands on ermine's tail, I'd opt for that over the BK+1.

How often does stun proc against hard mobs?

If you have gil then get Azoth. If you have time and some friends + 16 hours of ur life staring at a screen, get a joyeuse. If u have a suppanomimi then use you joyeuse some more with your 8/8 sword. If you have Adder Jambiya that doesnt exist >.>; use Azoth and that. If you can do Moblin Maze Mongers and get 1000 marbles get an Ermine's tail.


Azoth/Ermine > Azoth/Adder > Azoth/Joyeuse > Azoth/Cobra > Azoth/behemoth > Jambiya/behemoth > whatever else you need gilz and your blind...

lol.. good luck with it^^

If accuracy is an issue, I never off hand the joyeuse. Anything less then 85% acc and I go double dagger. For main hand I use Jambiya, and off hand I use Cobra Knife. Especially now with saber dance, I find dual daggers to be very nice.

In situations where I don't want to be using saber dance, and accuracy isn't too big an issue, I off hand joyeuse then.

Link or proof please?

You'll need to sacrifice gear for sword skill/attack/accuracy to get use out of a joyeuse if you're also trying to get a lot of Haste..so in reality, the azoth/CUK would be better than an azoth/joyeuse if you're trying to get as much haste as possible.

Sorry, I don't understand why people try so hard to fit a joyeuse in there when obviously dual daggers is more beneficial in so many other situations. Especially now with saber dance, dual daggers with haste gear rocks.

u guys use sushi at birds? can i borrow some gil?

crab sushi is relativlly cheap.


edit: oh and Ermine's tail.

Edited, Jan 6th 2009 10:29am by bwood

Well, lets see if we can compare for pure tp gain, which is better, Joy or CUK, in a full haste build.

First, lets set the equip(cheaper), amount of acc, and the acc you need to cap:
Going to go with a relatively easy to get build.
Colibri need 407 acc to cap accuracy at 75(339 Evasion, add 40 acc to cap, then 4 acc per level difference).
Base Acc for DNC dagger with full merits: 264 Acc
Base Acc for DNC sword was mentioned earlier at 227
Add in Dex(going by IA's 70(+5 rajas)) and acc bonus for both and you'll have:
Dagger: 323
Sword: 286
Gear: 20 Acc and 21% haste
Main: BK +1
Sub: Piece in question
Ammo: Tiphia Sting
Head: Walhara Turban
Neck PCC
Ear: Suppa
Ear: Brutal
Body: Rap(Etoile probably ends up better, but going for max haste)
hands: Dusk
Ring: Rajas
Ring: Sniper/Woods/Blood
Back: Amemet +1
Waist: Swift
Legs: Etoile
Feet: Dusk

With crab sushi(cheap and can use against birds) acc for both is:
Dagger: 387 Acc
Sword: 345 Acc

Now to the delays, BK+1/CUK is 298 delay before haste, 236 after(118 per weapon). BK+1/Joy is 340 before haste, 269 after(~134.5 per weapon).

For a theoretical 1 hour worth of pure swings on Colibri, the amount of hits for BK+1/CUK is:
236 Delay= 3.93 secs per round, 916 rounds in one hour, 1832(1923 with brutal) separate swings.

Bk+1/Joy(going to calc these separate, to include the 45% da on joy, and to separate their acc values)
269 Delay= 4.483 secs per round, 802 rounds in one hour, 1604 separate swings before DA. 802 hits of those rounds have a 45% DA rate so: 1162 hits from Joy, 842 (5% da) from BK+1, 2004 swings.

Lets add acc vs colbri, without a brd:
387 double dagger acc means 85% hit rate, so of the 1923 swings, 1634 will hit, resulting in 8170 TP.

BK+1/Joy has 85% hit rate on 842 attacks, and a horrid 64% hit rate on 1162 attacks, so a total of 1458 attacks will hit resulting in 7727 tp.


This is without factoring in Saber Dance, which I didn't factor in because I don't know how it works with a DA weapon. However, if we use the other rules, DA weapons generally do not benefit from other outside sources of DA(for instance, it's better to switch Brutal out when using Soboro except on WS). Hence, you'd probably have a much larger benefit on Dag/Dag than Dag/Joy. Without it, Joy hits less, generates less TP, and does less damage.

Short Conclusion: This pretty much sums it up:

In full haste it hits 10.7% less and generates 5.4% less TP. If we were to use it in the full acc build for BK+1/Joy instead, it would be 1446 landed attacks, 7663 tp, which is still 11.6% less hits and 6.2% less tp.

Joy is pretty useless in merits for DNC. Same reason THFs don't use Ridill.

Edit: I was truncating tp at the wrong spot, making it .1 less than each combo should get
Edit 2: Forgot sTP on this one too, fixed

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:19pm by Souji

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:28pm by Souji

Actually, I wouldn't use CUK myself(the THF inside me objects). The DPS is low, so although the delay is less, I'd prefer to go with a weapon like BK+1, Ermine's tail, or Jambiya offhand to Azoth. Probably Ermine's tail. What CUK would still win over those in is pure TP gain. I'm not sure if that makes it worth it for a DNC that is healing, but I personally wouldn't do it. Lets see, using the same examples from above, same haste and 1 hour worth of hits on colibri:

Azoth/Ermine:
210+194= 404 = 324 delay before haste(5.1 tp a hit) and 256 delay after.
4.267 secs a round means 843 rounds, 1686 swings, 1770 after brutal DA. 87% acc puts us at 1539 hits and 7848 TP.

Azoth/CUK
210+177= 387 = 310 delay before haste(5.0 tp a hit) and 245 delay after.
4.083 secs a round means 881 rounds, 1762 swings, 1850 after brutal DA. 87% acc puts us at 1609 hits and 8045 TP.

The ~769 hits with Ermine vs ~804 hits with CUK are what matter here. The difference is 26.5% difference in base damage, while having 4.6% difference in hits and 2.4% difference in TP. Unless I'm doing my math wrong, that's a hugely obvious choice to go with a better DPS weapon(although I did use the best DPS dagger DNC can use, unless the stats we have on Terpsichore are incorrect).


Edit: I think my tp calcs are wrong. I'll double check and fix when I get home

Edit 2: Gah, I forgot STP also >< Fixed.

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 6:44pm by Souji

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:23pm by Souji

Well, this will be completely out of our comparison but since you asked: My DRG caps acc at colibri without food or outside acc. I hate acc songs/rolls as DRG, and since the advent of crab sushi, I think it's worth less for other classes as well. Both my NIN and my THF in the future should be able to hit in upper 80% using crab sushi without Mad.

However, we aren't talking about the best acc 2h job, we're talking about DNC. The main reason I left it out was because not everyone uses a BRD there, and it isn't as reliable as the sushi, which you can completely control yourself.

I don't mind factoring in a BRD though. Blade Mad gives 34 Acc without merits and at most +39 with merits(I don't think I'd merit mad though, probably lullaby and Minuet). Lets give them the best possible bonus excluding relic, and say 39 ACC from Mad.

Dagger will be capped acc, and joy will go from 64% hit rate to 83.5. Comparison in hits and Tp(using the BK+1 senario):

Dag/Dag will get 1826 landed hits, 9130 tp.

Dag/Joy will get 1769 landed hits, 9375 tp.

At this point, joy finally produces more tp, but still has less hits. We still haven't taken Saber Dance into consideration, and with the way DA normally works(joy DA does not stack with other DA), I'm pretty sure it will only help the dagger portion. In addition, the damage on Joy will be less, and you'll be surprised how little the 2 extra WS you earned actually helps with that(fast hitting classes like these rely on alot of damage done rather than big damage in ws).

Lets throw something else into the equation: There used to be a THF who frequented the alla forums for a while names Kwontoss. He held a then not very accepted view that it was better to spam sushi on birds and have double march than to have Mad sung and use meat. At the time, his view was more expensive and while he often proved his point(he did sick damage, had a very good haste build, so double march helped alot), most people couldn't pull it off. Nowadays however, crab sushi makes this type of situation available to us. Lets see what happens if we use March/Mad vs March/March, for both sets. I'll leave out RDM haste as it should help whoever wins even more. 4 Comparisons:

First, Mad/March(11% haste), haste samba 10%, 21% haste in gear as mentioned in the above posts. Still giving joy a better boost by maxing Mad, and not using Saber Dance. (42% haste total)

Dag/Dag will have a delay of 173 after haste, 2.883 secs per round, 1248 rounds in one hour. 2620 swings, 2489 landed due to capped acc, and 12445 TP.

Dag/Joy will have a delay of 198 after haste, 3.3 secs per round 1090 rounds in one hour. 1144 swings from dagger, 1580 swings from joy. Dag capped acc, Joy 83.5 acc: 1086 + 1319 = 2405 total landed hits, 12746 tp.

Now lets see how they both do with March/March(51% haste) instead:

Dag/Dag will have a delay of 147 after haste, 2.45 secs a round, 1469 rounds per hour. 3084 swings @ 85% acc would equal 2621 landed hits and 13105 TP.

Dag/Joy will have a delay of 167 after haste, 2.783 secs a round, 1293 rounds per hour. 1357 swings from dag, 1874 swings from joy. With Acc, that's 1153 + 1199, 2352 hits and 12465 tp.

As you can see, Mad/March works better for Dag/Joy, but March/March with 2 daggers works even better than both setups. I'd like to point out, again, that this doesn't include saber dance. For those interested, Azoth/Ermine with crab sushi and March/March looks like this:

Azoth/Ermine will have 159 delay, 2.65 secs per round 1358 rounds, 2851 swings, 2480 landed hits @ 87% hit rate for 12648 TP.


In conclusion: With Mad AND Crab sushi, Joy hits at at a respectable rate for TP. However, it doesn't not do enough extra tp to really warrant the drop in number of attacks, and the actual damage per hit of Joy(which makes up a majority of the hits in that setup). Furthermore, unless Saber Dance breaks the traditional DA rules, adding saber dance will favor Dag/Dag to a large extent, making Joy obsolete. To drive the nails in the coffin more, unless you're in a dual BRD party, you should probably be getting dual march instead of Mad on birds anyway.

Edit: Yay, Post 1000.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 12:47pm by Souji

So in the end, it's basically down to preference, with dag/dag, as expected and pointed out, edging out joytoy as the haste stacks.

I don't have room for sword merits. So I probably won't bother with joyeuse if I ever decide to merit again. Haven't been in a merit pt for 1 year ._.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 2:36pm by woooter

Souji, those are much more respectable numbers. I only made a fuss about it because Colibri are a TERRIBLE way to calculate or parse ANYTHING, because their ungodly evasion skews results in generally unrealistic directions. Most things just aren't that evasive.

I do have to correct you on one thing, though. Joyeuse DOES stack with DA/TA gear and traits, but only on the condition that Joyeuse's native DA did not occur. If the randomization sets out a single attack, THEN traits come into play. Saber Dance, therefore, gives Joyeuse a roughly 75% DA rate (50% for the initial DA check, 50% for the single hit check should that fail) upon Saber Dance's initial activation (77.5% with Brutal), dwindling to, if I'm not mistaken, 55% (57.5% with Brutal) just before it wears off. I'm not entirely sure how that affects Dagger/Dagger vs. Dagger/Joyeuse calculations, but it's definitely something worth mentioning.

In the end, though, as others have said, it does more or less come down to preference.

Any thing that doesn't evade much, joyeuse off hand is going to shine. Accuracy is the only issue at hand when comparing it in merit or end game situations, and if that isn't an issue then joyeuse off hand is the best option. TP gain can't be beat using that sword (unless you have ridill or something, duh).

Other then that, I off-hand CUK for the low delay to boost TP gain, at least until I get ermine's tail. Then I might go Tail/Jambiya, Azoth/Tail, or Tail/Joyeuse, depending on situation and my current gil situation >_>...

I really only see a point to calculate for accuracy against stuff you'll merit against. Gods and HNM will generally be evasive, whereas solo and campaign and low man will generally be less evasive. However, as merit mobs go, Colibri aren't that evasive. They're about middle ground. Mamool can range to below or greatly above(Colibri are 339 max, Mamool 434 max, ~318 for lowest mage, and up to 344 for middle ground ones like BST). I don't know the stats for Troll, but I recall people mentioning they can be fairly evasive as well. I think colibri are a great monster to calc on, due to the popularity, and the low def/middleground evade. Parsing gets skewed because their actions lower the damage of the best dds however, so I agree there. The evasive perception probably comes from the fact that people who would normally use sushi do not, because they don't want to use food that will get eaten.



Hmm, this one is alot harder. I'm not sure how to calc it, and while that seems correct, I'm having reservations. Possibly just because of weapons with more than two different types of attacks, like Soboro, where adding more DA decreases two sides, one of which was 3A. Well, to start, if it DOES work that way, then the calcs remain the same, it'll affect Dag/Dag the same it affects Dag/Joy. I guess I'm just seeing it as more complicated than it is.

Ah right, I completely forgot about Caedarva. After playing RDM and BRD to 75, I hate that place, with a passion. I mostly merit on DRG, and occasionally on BRD and NIN, so I'm usually either up against Mamool or Birds. Puk's I view as fodder between mamool pulls, so I don't count them much. I wasn't sure on Skoffin evade, I'm usually BRD when I'm at Mamool Ja Staging point. So to me, those are the usual types I'd calc against, and what I consider as what matters. I'd think DNCs would hate mire as much as me though, with the amnesia thing.

Also, still touting crab sushi. I think they're awesome, I was dreading Colibri before as THF and NIN(wasn't even planning to really merit on NIN) then found out about these. Tried em on my NIN, had an awesome time, I got 88.5% acc without brd(we had 2 brds though, so parse had acc at 94%) and it cost me 10k total for 23k exp over the course of ~1:20(little less). I'm the type who has to use food no matter what, so I always spam mithkabobs normally. This sushi costing the same price is very good news for my 1h classes.

In addition to this I would mind seeing some One Hand builds for HNM and things with high def. I would like to see what a DNC/WAR or DNC/SAM looks like if you guys have tried it before. Also considering DNC/DRK might have some potential. Im guessing shield is Airy Buckler hands down :P

Why use a cobra knife over at least a Behemoth NQ. Not knocking those that do, but I don't really get it? Compared to others.
Also I'm dieing for an Azoth and Ermine also drooolll :)

It has a higher activation rate, but it is still only with the lower acc and atk of a Sword. And that is only for the first minute or so of SD, then it drops down to barely larger then normal joytoy activation.

This is a reply to rdmdontdie. I've been meaning to reply but I usually only go on the forums at work, and I've been in training keeping me away from PC. Anyway,
first, as to the delay issue, you're doing a few things of.f DW and Haste is a reduction, so when you truncate, you truncate the reduction, not the result. Therefore, the way we do it, you should be doing ceiling instead of floor.

Of course, this only changes the result slightly, so the main thing would be the Haste Samba. I wasn't aware of this, but do you have proof? If it's applied to the weapon first directly, then it should reduce your tp like DW does. This should be incredibly easy to test actually, just get a delay range where you get 5.0 tp a hit, then apply haste samba. If your delay comes down, then it applies first.

I don't believe this is the case however, or SAMs would not want a DNC in their party. SAMs strive for a 6-hit build, and a reduction in TP would kill that, lowering their damage more than (atleast an unmerited) haste samba would probably help. Going from 7-hit to 6-hit is a 16.7% increase in WS frequency, and their WS tend to make up 60% or more of their damage, so it's basically ~10% increase in DoT. Fully merited it may be worth the trade off, but otherwise, I'd be upset as a SAM. I haven't seen any complaints about it, which is where I have my reservations. If I get the testing conditions, I'll try it myself. Alternatively, if you or someone else can do the same test and show it as proof, I'll accept it.

___________________________________________________________________________

Now, to address some other points of yours and others in here... first choice of weapon and food: Weapon was chosen because someone else suggested it. Personally, I'd never use CUK. As a THF, I'm used to choosing daggers for performance overall rather than just tp generation, so I'd go BK+1 2x or with Jamibiya, until I could get Azoth/Ermine.

As for food, I chose crab sushi specifically because it was cheap and easy for everyone to use. As a RDM, you can use bream sushi +1 on birds because you probably don't take as much hate. A DNC probably wouldn't as well. However, people who don't take much hate still avoid using food on Colibri, which, with the addition of crab sushi, I think is unacceptable. I play with NIN, THF, DRG, all classes where I either easily have hate a majority of the time or strive to take hate as much as possible(with THF evade and shadows, no reason not to take hate. I never TAWS, only solo and SAWS, unless TAWS will kill the bird). Hence, on THF and NIN I use crab sushi and on DRG mithkabobs. I'm not going to calc to a higher standard than I use, which isn't too expensive.

Lets hope this doesn't look like too horrid a WoT when I post...


Edited, Jan 28th 2009 1:34pm by Souji

Ok, a few things I'm just gonna throw out since some people don't seem to realize it.

Haste, no matter what the form, is always applied at the end. So Haste Samba would be applied at the end of any delay calculation, and also does -not- affect TP return.

Secondly, SD on top of joyeuse -does- have decreased returns because you can not double attack on a joyeuses double attack; so the only time SD has a chance to proc is when joytoy is hitting only once. So for example, if joytoy has a 50% DA rate, then the chance for saber dance to proc is only present during the other 50%. And if SD procs 50% of the time, that means in total, for the first minute or so in duration, Joytoy has a 75% DA proc, 50% native plus 25% (50% of 50%= 25% of the original value). The joytoy will always swing more often, but it's lower acc and atk is the issue.

And just a fun fact, parsing myself in merit parties on non-flying mobs with double dagger (Jambiya + CUF), my melee/ws damage ratio is about 1:1 lol.

Edited, Jan 28th 2009 3:52pm by Salodin