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Dancer as a Tank - Amazing ResultsFollow

#52 Jan 02 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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So..... While reading this post, i was trying to find out what weapon is better for tanking. In other words is h2h better for /war than a single dagger?
Thanks for reply

(sorry if this is what people call a "Necro bump")
#53 Jan 03 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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i was trying to find out what weapon is better for tanking. In other words is h2h better for /war than a single dagger?

If you are above level 20, dagger. If your tanking something at 75 that has terrible evasion, joytoy could also work offhand for tp.
#54 Jan 05 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Oh man this thread was so awesome. Good times.
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#55 Jan 09 2010 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been working on a Dancer tank setup specifically built for end game for a little while now. From the very beginning I thought of the job as being a viable tank and never aimed to follow a typical or damage dealing Dancer route. I started down this path before I even unlocked the Dancer job, when I first read about Fan Dance and was intrigued by the prospect of a Dancer tank. It was then that I began stepping and jigging my way to 75.

I'm still in the process of testing my build out and things could still change. However, I have already been getting some positive feedback from those who have seen it in action. Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to test it out on HNMs, but in the future I hope to have a shot at it.



[ Merits ]
< Combat Merits >
• Dagger <8>
• Evasion <4>
• Parry <4> (Capped Parry Skill!)

< Other >
• Critical Hit Rate <4>
• Enmity Up <4> (Planned if Dancer tank is viable in end game situations; not Implemented yet)

< Dancer >
• Steps Accuracy <5>
- Reasoning : One of my main goals as a tank in general is to not blink in and out of gear while tanking. Doing so in a tanking situation can hinder my support from targeting me with spells and effects in a timely manner. As such, I chose not to swap in the Dancer hands(AF1) or feet(AF2) to help me land my Steps. So I need all the accuracy I can from any other source I can to help me land my Steps on HNM tier mobs.

• Reverse Flourish <5>
- Reasoning : I feel that I need to grab at any 'free' TP generation that I can. Since I will have Fan Dance up at all times, putting merits into Haste Samba will be of no use in this setup. Building Flourish is also not desirable.

• Fan Dance <1>
- Reasoning : This ability is the corner stone in this setup and without it, much of what I am attempting to do would not work very well or at all.

• No Foot Rise <5>
- Reasoning : The same as Reverse Flourish. I want the most amount of TP back from 'free' maneuvers as possible. I have read that many Dancers only put three upgrades into this ability, but I really felt that I would need grasp at every single TP I could for this setup to work well.

• Closed Position <4>
- Reasoning : Originally I had dismissed this trait entirely, as I didn't feel that the added Evasion would be of much use in an HNM situation. However, I soon realized that the added Accuracy would be essential to helping me to land Steps without swapping in other gear.



[ Gear - Standing Set ]
- Explanation : Since Dancer lacks a lot of hate tools, I decided to custom sculpt a tank setup that when paired with Fan Dance would magnify the hate tools it does have available. This is what I have come up with so far.

- Totals : HP[1,329] Enmity[+41 (with Fan Dance) ] Attack[337] Defense[313]
- Image : http://www.moofah.com/temp/media/images/jpeg/ffxi/dnc-tank.jpg

< Main Hand >
• Azoth

< Sub Hand >
• Dakini (DEX+4 Accuracy+8)

< Ammunition >
• Aumoniere

< Head >
• Anwig Salade [AGI+2 Haste+2 Enmity+4 Magic Dam. Taken -2]

< Neck >
• Ritter Gorget

< Left Ear >
• Cassie Earring

< Right Ear >
• Eris' Earring +1 [Augmented: HP+6 MP-6 STR+1]

< Body >
• Avalon Breastplate

< Hands >
• Dusk Gloves

< Left Ring >
• Bloodbead Ring
• Bomb Queen Ring (Swapped in to Bloodbead Ring slot on occasion)

< Right Ring >
• Mermaid's Ring

< Back >
• Cerberus Mantle

< Waist >
• Warwolf Belt [Augmented: HP+14 MP-14] (Planned to replace once I get a Warwolf Belt augmented with Haste)

< Legs >
• Desultor Tassets [Haste+3 Enmity+4 HP+25]

< Feet >
• Dusk Ledelsens


[ Gear - Utsusemi Swap ]
< Left Ear >
• Loquacious Earring

< Waist >
• Swift Belt


[ Gear - Step Swap ]
< Right Ear >
• Choreia Earring


[ Gear - Cure Cheat Code ]
- Explanation : Very simply, you are removing HP from yourself and then adding it back on again before curing yourself. You gain back the HP that you lost and the enmity that goes along with healing that amount of HP. This method of gaining hate is a critical component to Dancer tanking.

< Curing Waltz II >
< Left Ring >
• Serket Ring [Primary Swap]
• Bloodbead Ring [Secondary Swap]

< Neck >
• Ritter Gorget [Remove then Re-equip]

< Left Ear >
• Cassie Earring [Remove then Re-equip]


< Curing Waltz III >
< Left Ring >
• Serket Ring [Primary Swap]
• Bomb Queen Ring [Secondary Swap]

< Right Ring >
• Ether Ring [Primary Swap]
• Mermaid's Ring [Secondary Swap]

< Neck >
• Morgana's Choker [Primary Swap]
• Ritter Gorget [Secondary Swap]

< Left Ear >
• Astral Earring [Primary Swap]
• Cassie Earring [Secondary Swap]

< Waist >
• Scouter's Rope [Primary Swap]
• Warwolf Belt [Secondary Swap]

< Back >
• Lynx Mantle [Primary Swap]
• Cerberus Mantle [Secondary Swap]


[ Job Abilities and Spells ]
• Spectral Jig
- Reasoning : It generates the same amount of hate as using a Ninjutsu debuff. It's free and it's every 30 seconds. Spam it, love it. Chocobo Jig has the same amount of hate tied to it, but its recast is one minute and therefore not as desirable.

• Animated Flourish
- Reasoning : Simple and straight forward enmity generation. Unfortunately, using this eats up Steps and slows your overall TP generation down. I find that I only use this in the beginning of fights or when I need an immediate spike of enmity.

• Curing Waltz II, III and Divine Waltz
- Reasoning : This is a Dancer tanks' bread and butter. The bulk of your enmity generation will come from how much you cure yourself or others. A Dancer tank pretty much must take advantage of 'cure cheat codes' in order to be successful. If you can use Divine Waltz when many other party members are missing HP, you can pull in a huge amount of hate; use whenever possible.

• Ninjutsu Debuffs (Hojo, Kurayami, Jubaku)
- Reasoning : Dancer has very few hate tools of its own to use, so you will have to dip into your Ninja subjob for a few. They are slow to use but they are a critical component for a Dancer tank as they add enmity that does not decay easily over time. Use when you lose hate to another tank or when the mob is casting a long spell, or just whenever you can fit them in and other abilities are down. The Dancer tank mantra is "always be doing something".

• Ninjutsu Buffs (Monomi)
- Reasoning : Believe it or not, this spell offers as much enmity as a Ninjutsu Debuff spell. Spam it, love it. No, Tonko does not work as a hate tool, do not use it.



[ Food ]
These are a few that I have been using. The list will probably lengthen once I try more foods out.

• Marinara Pizza (HP, Accuracy and Attack)
• Dorado Sushi (Enmity+ is grand, Accuracy is nice)
• Tavnazian Taco / Salad (If you have Bard support for Accuracy and Attack, this food is great)



[ Place in the Alliance ]
Originally I had planned to be where all the other tanks would be ... in the 'tank party'. However, a Dancer tank has little need for some of the buffs that a Paladin needs to be effective. Therefore, I have recently been experimenting with the idea that the Dancer tank would be better off mingling in with the 'melee party', if there is one. In this way, the Dancer would be receiving spells, rolls and/or songs that would help out greatly with what he/she is trying to accomplish. Hit, deal a little bit of damage, get TP in a swift fashion and ultimately hold hate.

At the moment, this is just a thought and I have yet to actually try it out. But seeing as how a single Divine Waltz that covers four melee (including the Dancer) would garner a lot of hate, I think this idea would be definitely worth using.



[ Tanking Attempts ]
< Hakutaku >
- This fight was done in a pick-up alliance which was headed up by a few people that I knew. Although not particularly 'endgame', this NM is can be very troublesome to tank. Make sure that you time your abilities so that they activate directly after a TP move as long as you are not Paralyzed. If Hakutaku paralyzes your Fan Dance this NM becomes extremely dangerous because of how hard and fast he can hit you. He is also evasive but if you have Closed Position and/or Dagger merits along with sushi your hit rate should be just fine.

Because this NM does not have a huge amount of defense, a melee will be able to pull off big numbers on their weapon skills. So if you have one or more strong melee that are not using the Thief subjob to plant their hate, you cannot let down your guard at all. During the nine fights that I tanked, one Samurai continued to go all out and eventually pulled hate because of it, sometimes dying. I could regain hate after he took a little damage by continuing my spamming of my enmity building abilities.

For the bulk of these fights I did not receive Haste and there was no Bard or Corsair for songs or rolls. At times the rate at which I was Paralyna'd was slow or sometimes not at all. I viewed these battles as a stress test for Dancer tank, so I did not make any comments to my party on the quality of support.



< Draketrader Zlodgodd >
- This opportunity was thrust on me when the main tank and only planned tank for this battle was killed mid-way. I had not planned on tanking or even operating as a secondary tank, but I was able to gain and maintain hate through melee and mage attacks after slipping into my tank gear set and spamming through my Waltz, buff and debuff line. This NM uses the Dragoon Jump ability a lot which hits extremely hard. Keeping utsusemi up is a must, but should they go down be ready to cure yourself to maintain your hate.




< Faust >
- I was extremely nervous about this NM as I wasn't sure if I could maintain a constant Waltz spam to keep up with the HP that I was losing. I went into the fight with near 300% TP and a full 5 Steps with my No Foot Rise timer about halfway. I was surprised to find that I didn't have that much of a problem maintaining hate. I continued to hold hate until about 10% where the mages had gone nuke happy at around 50% and pulled hate. However, I was able to pull it back to me after an Animated Flourish, Spectral Jig and a Waltz III.
- Overall I was expecting everything to go badly because of Faust's WS spam, but it went quite well and was the highlight of my day in Sky.


< Brigandish Blade >
- This NM has fairly quick attack speed along with En-Terror and can hit like a truck. If you have a second tank, it is very preferable to bounce hate back and forth between the two of you. I made the mistake of pinning hate on myself and was hammered heavily by both his weapon skills and normal hits. I also focused too much on trying to successfully cast Utsusemi when I should have healed myself in between casting attempts to maintain my hate. Otherwise, the fight went along very well.

- On my second attempt at this NM I fared much better. I was able to keep utsusemi up for most of the fight, being supported by my own stuns via Violent Flourish or by Stuns from other mages. Keeping the hate was never an issue and the fight went along smoothly.


< Zipacna >
- Zipacna died very quickly, so my experience on Dancer tank is limited, however he is not really much harder to tank than a normal crystal golem. The only point for worry is that he spams the Crystal Rain move.

- My second attempt at this NM was only slightly longer than the first. I had a little bit of a problem maintaining hate because of the quickness in which the NM was pulled.


< Steam Cleaner >
- Because this NM has En-TP Drain, it can be extremely annoying and deadly to a Dancer tank. However, keeping utsusemi up did not prove too difficult. For this attempt I was in the melee party and used Divine Waltz whenever I could, which gave me a huge amount of hate to work with. The melee and mages were able to go all out and I was still able to maintain hate because of the utilization of Divine Waltz.

- Second go at this NM was about the same as the first. No issues and no problems holding hate against melee and mages.


< Mother Globe >
- The initial pull was somewhat sloppy, so the beginning of the fight was chaotic. However, I was able to maintain hate fairly well even during the chaos. This fight did present a challenge to me as Mother Globe has a very potent shock spikes. I could not melee and keep my shadows up at the same time, as I would generally be stunned from the Shock Spikes. Therefore, I simply turned around and used my Steps and Reverse Flourish to gain my needed TP. There were a few times where I only had 9 or less TP, so I would turn for a moment to gain enough for another one or two Steps before turning back around again.


< Ullikummi >
- This NM was done in a low-man attempt (RDM BLM DNC DNC). I was able to keep Ullikummi off of the RDM and BLM around 75% of the time and tank the NM straight up during that time. However, a lot of my time was spent managing utsusemi from its Heavy Strike and Diaga spam and as such did not have much time to melee to gain TP. When I did lose hate, the NM was simply kited around the teleport pad until I was able to regain hate.


< Genbu >
- Although generally viewed as the easiest of the Sky gods to defeat, I viewed this fight as an opportunity to show that Dancer tank could keep hate and was viable. This fight actually took place before I had finished my merits and tanking gear set, so this fight as an uphill battle.

However, I had already built my cure cheat code gear set and was using ninjutsu debuffs, so I had a way to maintain hate. Because of his high defense, I was able to keep hate fairly well from the melee and did alright keeping it from the Black Mages. I began the fight straight-tanking and then moved to kiting him whenever all of my utsusemi timers were down. He was surprisingly more difficult to straight-tank than I had originally thought.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 4:07am by Kuuhalee
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#56 Jan 12 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Good job on tanking on dnc, it can be done but mostly the biggest hurdle is, of course, ppl letting you tank. I had tanked as dnc in dynamis when we lost all of our tanks as /nin, granted, thanks to shadows the ppl that were left i did have a hard time trying to keep hate because of the loss of damage and the ppl were in the other pt so i couldn't heal them to keep hate. Like you said, once the shadows were gone and i continuously healed myself hate never left, but it is a necessity that shadows were kept up as 2~3 hits would floor me and we were fighting those lovely scorpions in bastok that loved to AoE stone. Fan Dance and a smart thf is such a godsend to keep hate and keep ppl alive if i was a /war with defender and another voke that would be helpful but i dunno if i would have survived. Worth thinking though.

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 11:28am by ThePetTaruMotovia
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#57 Jan 12 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the post. Dancer tanking definitely works as I have seen it work. Myself, I got dancer to 75 before I thought of it as a possible tank job. However, I was not a support role either - basically I walked the blm path and killed beastman pets. Soloing is tanking for a party of one. :p

What I would like to hear though are more accounts of dancer tanking in endgame situations. Note: "endgame" does not necessarily equal HNMs as I know convincing an HNM LS to allow you to try is not happening. I mean other events that level 75s tend to do. Again, this is soloing more than tanking, but on JoL my old LS had me hold one of its spawned sharks. I did this easily.

What I would love to hear is if anyone has ever tried tanking a Salvage chariot. My salvage group enjoys having me come dancer and not too long ago we were fighting LBC. It had just done homing missle, reset hate, and the whm spat out a Cure V which meant his death. After the whm went down, he asked that people kite him around while he unweakened (we had plenty of time). What wound up happening was that the tanks kept getting smacked around and other healers stole hate and died too. I asked to be moved to the main party so I could help cure and I did steal hate and kited it around but it was too late. Too many people were weakened and time caught up to us so the run ended without a win. After reading this post, I cannot help but wonder what would have happened if I had been transferred to the main party earlier and if I had tried TANKING it while the rest of the party regrouped.
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#58 Jan 12 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I updated my previous post with some of my more serious tanking attempts on Dancer tank. The list is small for now, as my linkshell has many tanks to choose from and my other jobs are well geared and generally preferable over my Dancer. I will update the list as I get more opportunities, though.

I was recently called up to Sky explicitly as Dancer tank! I feel have showed my linkshell that I am serious about Dancer being a tank and I believe that some or all in the leadership are at least curious about how well the job can perform in that duty.

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 3:14pm by Kuuhalee
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#59 Jan 12 2010 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Kuuhalee wrote:
I updated my previous post with some of my more serious tanking attempts on Dancer tank. The list is small for now, as my linkshell has many tanks to choose from and my other jobs are well geared and generally preferable over my Dancer. I will update the list as I get more opportunities, though.

I was recently called up to Sky explicitly as Dancer tank! I feel have showed my linkshell that I am serious about Dancer being a tank and I believe that some or all in the leadership are at least curious about how well the job can perform in that duty.

Edited, Jan 12th 2010 3:14pm by Kuuhalee


I would love to know if you can tank Byakko. :D
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#60 Jan 15 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Yenecol wrote:
I would love to know if you can tank Byakko. :D


Single tanking Byakko is horrendous even for typical tank jobs. Co-tank? Sure, I'm certain I could weasel my way into doing Byakko sometime.



Today I did more Sky tanking! The last time I went up, there was a Paladin who was there to make sure things didn't explode into terrible awfulness. Today it was different, as I was the single and only tank for the alliance as we went through and did the NMs. For this jaunt through Sky, I switched over to my Cinquedea and Joyeuse for faster TP generation, as I don't really miss the lesser NMs very much with Dorado Sushi on.

I chalked up my first Faust win, which was very exciting for me as I really wasn't sure how well my setup would perform on him. I was also able to do another Zipacna, Brigandish Blade and Steam Cleaner, all of which went much smoother than my last encounters with them.

A lot of people in my linkshell have been surprised how effective the Dancer tank setup has been so far. I can easily hold hate off of several chained IV spells from Black Mages and when I do lose hate, I can generally regain it in a quick fashion. I think that the general awareness for the Dancer tank has been raised and I hope to continue on to larger NMs and possibly certain HNMs. I will continue to post here as I make advances.

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 11:30pm by Kuuhalee
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#61 Jan 15 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I switched over to my Cinquedea and Joyeuse for faster TP generation,


/sigh...will my work never be done?
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#62 Jan 15 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Kalisa wrote:
/sigh...will my work never be done?


Is there a problem, officer?



Ok, after reading some of your input on the dagger thread, I'm going to assume that you're not agreeing with the usage of the Joyeuse for accuracy reasons?

I felt that my accuracy against the normal mobs was fine, so I continued to use it against the NMs. It worked fine for what I wanted. I wouldn't be so silly as to use the setup against Gods or HNMs, but for the lesser NMs of Sky the setup seemed to work just fine for me. It's just something I wanted to try out this particular time as we had a plethora of Black Mages and a few strong melee that I had to contend with.

Edited, Jan 15th 2010 2:37am by Kuuhalee
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#63 Jan 16 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Single tanking Byakko is horrendous even for typical tank jobs. Co-tank? Sure, I'm certain I could weasel my way into doing Byakko sometime.

Byakko is very easy to solo tank with utsusemi in an evasion setup. I'm not familiar with a DNC's evasion options, but if a NIN can stay alive without evasion traits, then presumably a DNC could. The trick would be holding hate. I would think that a DNC using a PLD-esque cure-cheat macro (swap in +hp gear, cure, swap back, turning any cure into a simple +enmity ability) would be in pretty good shape for hate gain, as long as it's possible to keep accuracy high enough in an evasion build to keep tp flowing after the initial 300 is gone.
#64 Jan 18 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Dancer as a tank does work fairly well after 40. Once you get to 55 it will always fall short to pld, nin and war. Feather tickle is a very destructive move and holding finishing moves isn't very productive.
At 75 meripo dnc can tank very well.
Dnc can get hate and dnc can deal with the hate but the real problem I've faced with dnc tanking is holding hate. If you sub nin waltzes can be too far and few between to hold hate and if you sub anything else the hits can drain your tp too fast.
I have a full enmity set pushing almost +40 (with fan dance) and for the most part dnc tanking just isn't reliable.
I have tanked quite a few big mobs for a short time with no problem.
#65 Jan 18 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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What is your enmity setup and what monsters have you fought? I'm just curious as to what other people who have utilized Dancer as a tank have done and such not.
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#66 Jan 19 2010 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Resentment Cape
Avalon Breastplate
Heroic Boots
Mermaid's Ring
Etoile Bangles
Baron's Chapeau
Harmonia's Torque
Trance Belt
Still haven't shelled out the 4 mil for the earrings yet
I fight mostly hnms.
Dnc best tanks against mobs with psychical aoe moves.
Divine waltz is dncs biggest hate tool.
#67 Jan 19 2010 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I mean, which HNMs exactly have you fought with DNC and tanked on? :O I haven't had much of a chance to tackle many higher end monsters on Dancer tank as of yet. So I was wondering which ones you have done and what your experience with them has been like.

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 2:47am by Kuuhalee
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#68 Jan 19 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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My own experience with DNC tanking is probably a little different from the "usual" style people have articulated in this thread. The hardest things I've done is Oupire and Scylla; certainly not your typical HNMs but definitely challenging, and I've been very successful at it. I have tanked alongside PLDs for these fights and, while tanking isn't exactly a competition for who can keep the mob on you for the longest amount of time, I have definitely given PLDs a run for their money.

I've kind of ranted on my blog about tanking on DNC, which I still stand by. Reading back on it, I didn't quite emphasise enough the power of DD-tanking, which is the backbone of my approach. Relying on waltzes as a primary source of hate I found can be problematic: DNC can do such a good job at escaping damage that, outside of waltz-cheating, there can be long periods of time where there simply is no damage to heal. This needs to be filled in with a potent DD set-up. I've always stood by the idea that if you are hitting a mob, you might as well do as much damage as you can. This, of course, fits wonderfully with gaining TP to use and manipulate.

When I tanked Scylla -- I'm sure anyone who has fought her realises she is a pain, and even that is an understatement -- my group anticipated that I would support our PLD tank seeing as she has a really horrible habit of completely decimating anyone rather quickly. It turned out that I had to do the tanking because our PLD simply could not keep up with the onslaught. Fan Dance, high evasion, potent waltzes and good DD meant I kept hate for the entire duration of the fight, even against the cure spams from our healers -- and I really mean cure spams; Scylla's back-to-back TP moves are... amazing.

I'm quite keen to try out DNC tanking further, but I thought it would be quite interesting for others to see a slightly different focus around the tanking side of DNC. ^^
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#69 Jan 19 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I've manage to pull hate on tiamat and tank it both in the air and on ground for all of 2 minutes each time.
I've tried my hand at di but just can't keep hate unless I purposely take damage.
Suzaku but eventually go down to firega
I've had some luck tanking on faf.
Scylla knocked my weapons off and ate me the first chance he got.
Various mobs of that nature. My problem is that I'm really fighting against the plds and I get no support. I'm basically soloing whenever I tank.
I'm still learning the tricks myself but I think Secretkeeper is right "DNC can do such a good job at escaping damage" but I've never tried dd tanking. Since I get no support I really need the tp for heals. I do find it a lot easier to tank working with another tank.
#70 Jan 19 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I can certainly agree with trying to add more damage when tanking, but only on certain monsters. When melee or mages are able to deal large and/or consistent amounts of damage to the monster in question, then going with a more DD oriented Dancer tank would certainly make sense. You will definitely need the enmity from the extra damage in conjunction with the enmity from Waltz in that case to keep up.

However, I think on monsters where melee and mages are not damaging the monster as much (such as Fafnir, Cerberus, etc) then the 'cure cheat' Dancer tank is the better option. It is more likely that you will outpace the melee and mages with the enmity from Waltzes rather than your damage. The Waltz is our most potent hate tool and basically needs to be heavily exploited in order for a Dancer tank to work properly, at least in my opinion.

I am currently aiming to get +50 Enmity from gear, merits and Fan Dance. From my experience, I have been able to rip hate back from heavily nuking Black Mages on Ullikummi and Faust after the mob started trundling over towards them with an extra Waltz and Spectral Jig, and that's just with +41 to +44. With +50 I am fairly certain that I won't really need to focus on dealing damage to keep up. At least, that is my theory which I hope to try out in the future. :)

I piqued the interest of several tanks in my linkshell early on with my theories and hard line attitude that Dancer tank was viable and that I would make it happen. While I had been leveling Dancer and even once I got to level 75, I had been getting feedback from them on gear and merit selection. They told me what gear and methods they used to tank and I incorporated a lot of those into the gear and style that I now use.

I really think that by heavily magnifying a Dancer's innate and subjob tools to as far as they can be pushed while maintaining a solid all-around gear set is the answer.

I have also almost capped my parry skill and wow ... what a difference it has been making when I tank things!

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 7:07pm by Kuuhalee
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#71 Jan 21 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think on monsters where melee and mages are not damaging the monster as much (such as Fafnir, Cerberus, etc) then the 'cure cheat' Dancer tank is the better option.

"Cure-cheat" tanking is always the better option, simply because there's no reason not to do it. You can tank as offensively as you like an still throw out hate bombs any time you feel like it. If people are hurt, cure them, but it's silly to sit on easy hate just because no one is currently hurt.
Quote:
I have also almost capped my parry skill and wow ... what a difference it has been making when I tank things!

It's been long-noted by NINs and THFs that Parrying is quite effective against HNM-level mobs. The general theory seems to be that Parrying checks against a mob's level rather than its accuracy, and most HNMs aren't actually very high level (but rather simply have huge stats), so Parrying isn't as diminished against high-end targets as most stats are. It'll never come close to replacing a proper defensive ability, but as an occasional free bonus it's really quite nice.

If you want to cap Parry with the least grief, I recommend tanking Byakko and Charybdis.
#72 Jan 27 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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84 posts
A few months after DNC came out, my friend had told me that DNC could tank, as it was apparent at low levels.

A bit later, merits were out and a DNC could increase evasion even more. Not sure if I can remember right, but DNC have second highest evasion next to Ninja?

Needless to say, he was kind of bummed because everybody seemed to laugh at the idea of DNC being tank. Now look what is happening. ^.^
#73 Jan 29 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Default
13 posts
Pretty sure THF has the highest evasion.. :o
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#74 Jan 31 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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7,104 posts
Quote:
Pretty sure THF has the highest evasion.. :o

Yes, by far. But, DNC with its B+ skill and Evasion Bonus trait is only a few points behind second-place NIN with its A- skill. If a NIN can evasion tank (and, it can), then a DNC can as well.

Evasion-tanking isn't a standard tanking model, though -- it's far more useful solo and in low-man situations (like a Byakko or Charybdis with very few people). But, even as a more traditional tank, a DNC/NIN has both damage mitigation (shadows) and hate tools (curing). Those are the two things that make an effective tank.

*edit* it's vs its, meh

Edited, Jan 31st 2010 9:52pm by Caesura
#75 Jan 31 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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96 posts
Without gear doesn't nin cap out at 277 where dnc hit's 313 and thf 332?
#76 Feb 01 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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84 posts
Yea, that is what I was told by my linkshell members. I do stand corrected. I can imagine with interrupt-free healing based on TP, that a DNC could probably become very good at tanking.

The only reason I am not leveling my own dancer is because I hate pulling. And saying that is an understatement. And that right there is an understatement in itself. xD
#77 Feb 01 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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96 posts
Quote:
The only reason I am not leveling my own dancer is because I hate pulling. And saying that is an understatement. And that right there is an understatement in itself. xD


lol. dnc isn't a puller! Get a real party with a bard.
#78NotASock, Posted: Feb 01 2010 at 12:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There's so much wrong with the OP.
#79 Feb 01 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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3,636 posts
OP is just gunna go with "NO U!" as a reply to that.
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#80 Feb 02 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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OP is just gunna go with "NO U!" as a reply to that.

lol.

I wonder if NotASock has anything to say about any of your other ancient posts? Maybe he dislikes your CoP guide?

Thank you for the CoP guide, btw.
#81 Feb 02 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Default
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2,114 posts
Ceasura wrote:
I wonder if NotASock has anything to say about any of your other ancient posts? Maybe he dislikes your CoP guide?


Yes, because a rating button and a CoP guide mean the facts I listed are false, nevermind them being unrelated to CoP. Great logic, there.


Let's go, allaDNCs! Fingers in ears, let's sing "lalala" and make 2005 parties that we can "tank"!
#82 Feb 02 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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7,104 posts
Quote:
Yes, because a rating button and a CoP guide mean the facts I listed are false, nevermind them being unrelated to CoP. Great logic, there.

Actually, the point was more that it's hilarious to watch you criticise a post from two years ago. Really, at this point, who do you think is itching to read your commentary on an ancient post?

And, to spell it out for you, I mentioned the CoP guide because it's even older than the post you commented on, and you seem to like analysing really old stuff.

At the bottom of each forum there are links to pages going back to the start of the game. You could probably find some really great stuff to disagree with from 2003.
#83 Feb 02 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Default
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96 posts
The post is still active so the op is still relevant. It's not like sock dug up an old post. Many people will read the original post and skim through the rest so I really don't see why there is an issue with him commenting on it. Sock did bring up a few valid points even though I don't fully agree with most of them.
#84 Feb 02 2010 at 8:07 PM Rating: Default
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2,114 posts
Caesura wrote:

Actually, the point was more that it's hilarious to watch you criticise a post from two years ago. Really, at this point, who do you think is itching to read your commentary on an ancient post?


In no particular order:

1) Nice backpedalling.
2) 2 years ago, all the facts I listed were already true.
3) I didn't necropost this, someone else did. The thread has been quite active since, too, it's not like the zombie got shotgunned while crawling from the ground.
4) Just because it's old doesn't make it less disinformative.
5) Since the necropost, the reception has been the same, even from yourself.
#85 Feb 03 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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7,104 posts
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1) Nice backpedalling.

From... what?

Dude, if you're going to criticise a post in an active thread (and this is an active thread, even though it started years ago), then criticise a recent post. You had two years to say something about the Op, and you didn't. Your criticisms of a post from 2003 would still be valid as well, but you'd have missed the bus on them too.

The thread moved on. Mooooooooove with it. If you have something to add to the thread, then add it. Trying to pwn a two-year-old post is just silly, and isn't getting you the internet high-score that you seem to be reaching for.
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There's so much wrong with the OP.
PLD tanks by spamming Atonement

Perhaps you'd also like to remind WHM's in 2003 that they should be subbing /SCH?

#86 Feb 03 2010 at 7:08 AM Rating: Default
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2,114 posts
Quote:
From... what?


From "Erecia wrote a CoP guide, therefore he is right in everything" to "but but but... the date! Ah yes, let's try to SAFE FACE on a pointless technicallity!"

Caesura wrote:

Perhaps you'd also like to remind WHM's in 2003 that they should be subbing /SCH?


You are quite a learned one. First, you went to the "Fynlar school of not actually reading what you're replying to", then to the "Arucaurd school of accusing others of what you're doing" and finished it up with the "Mellowy school of terrible analogies". Impressive.


Once again (why do idiots have to be told things twice?):
1) The OP's "unique snowflake" fantasy was as wrong in 2008 as it is now. SC/MB parties on ITs with a dedicated tank were already long dead when WoTG (and thus DNC) was released.
So, no, it's not at all like telling 2003 WHMs to sub a yet unreleased job.

This thread is like "the PLD thread to MBing in EXP!" If that thread existed and dozens of PLDs were still trying to make their PLD/BLM awesomenuker work in old IT SC/MB parties, I wouldn't care if the OP was from 2008 either; the thread would be just as stupid.


2) I'm not the necroposter, here. Is 2 years a special threshold where no information can be considered incorrect and everyone commenting on it has to agree with it?
Because I sure see a mass of idiots agreeing with it, before the "evil dissenting list of facts".


3) It's really rich of you to accuse anyone of "trying to reach an internet score" or whatever was your wording, when:
- You're the one posting to partake in this site's stupid popularity contest.
- You're the one that tried to use Erecia's e-credentials as proof of correctness.
- You're the one nitpicking on an irrelevant detail. You've not once even tried to prove the above facts wrong (being that they're facts and not opinion, you couldn't), you're just nagging on an irrelevant issue, that of timing. All that for cool points with this subforum's "wisemen".

Me, I'm just trying to stop bad info from making it into the game. That does not make me popular, I can assure you.
If I was shooting for popularity, I, too, would be sucking Erecia's **** But quite frankly, I don't care about popularity. My rating should be quite the telltale sign of that.
#87 Feb 03 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Default
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96 posts
Alright let's be productive or take it to pms pls.
I believe the original point of the op was that sometimes it's hard to find a tank or healer and how easily dnc can fill that role. The op was very uneducated on it though.
#88 Feb 04 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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3,636 posts
Man, I don't even play anymore. I quit like, what, 6 months ago or so. I just check the forums every now and then cuz I know some people that do and this is where I get my FFXI news so I know vaguely what they're talking about. Saw my old thread being discussed and came in at what was apparently the right time.

Though, for the record, I stick by what I said in the OP, especially when I wrote it. It was about dancers tanking in exp parties due to a lack of healers and tanks in certain exp ranges. I have no idea if you guys tank HNMs and stuff now at 75? Do you? It's pretty sweet if you do, but it was LOLOLOLOLOLLMAO-levels of impossible when I wrote the OP. The point was to start to take a serious look at what was possible in a community that had considered it a joke. Maybe I was wrong about certain facts, but since I based the whole thing on like a 2 hour exp party I had once, well, what the heck were you expecting? I'd sure hope people would have developed it beyond just theory at this point!

Quote:
"Erecia wrote a CoP guide, therefore he is right in everything"

Really, you should just stick with this. Saves everyone a lot of time. Plus it's flattering and awesome to have threads dedicated to me. Cheers, dancers!
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