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Dancer as a Tank - Amazing ResultsFollow

#1 Feb 17 2008 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is a very short introduction to dancer tanking based on a positive party experience I just had. Feel free to share your own! Much like with ninja, if the public accepts it we might actually see dancer as a third standard tank.


Lately on Sylph there has been a major tank shortage that’s prevented a lot of otherwise good parties form get going. Apparently some people are getting a bit desperate because this afternoon I was asked if dancer could tank. I said I would try, he said all right, and so a few minutes later I was in the Quicksand Caves provoking anticans and beetles.

For those who don’t want to read the whole thing, this should encourage you:

• I tanked in a normal exp party on DNC/WAR at level 50 and 51 in the Quicksand Caves. There was no backup tank, just me.
• I didn’t buy a single piece of additional equipment to tank. I tanked fully in my normal dancer setup, minus my second weapon due to lack of dual wield.
• With few exceptions, I held hate very well.
• All mobs were VT or IT.
• At no time did my party contain a WHM or RDM dedicated healer.
• I never died once in about 2 hours of constant fighting.
• Everyone in the party, myself included, was amazed at the fact dancer tanking was actually working.


The Basics

Paladin tanks by having large amounts of defense and the ability to cure themselves. Ninja tanks by evading attacks and holding hate mostly through damage. Dancer tanks by getting the absolute snot kicked out of them but staying alive by healing themselves and others in their party with the most effective frontline healing power in the game. They don’t mitigate nearly as much damage as a paladin through defense, nor evade nearly as many attacks as the ninja, but a dancer with enough TP can be pretty much impossible to take down.

Naturally, it’s totally unfair to expect you as a dancer to fully main heal yourself. Both Paladins and Ninjas require some party support and dancer is no different, especially as far as IT mobs are concerned. Keep in mind then when you’re tanking you’re not really a main healer since you’re using your abilities to keep hate, so it’s not as overkill to invite a WHM to your party as it may sound. Someone to watch out for status ailments and to augment your healing powers with their own makes dancer tanking a lot more stable.

It ain’t exactly pretty, and it feels like you’re riding the thin edge of a very sharp knife, but it gets the job done and it will probably impress your friends. If nothing else it saves you from needing to look for a tank.


Holding Hate and Staying Alive

Dancer tanks hold hate through their waltz moves. Curing and divine waltzes both build huge hate; bad if you’re just a healer in a party, but extremely effective if you’re actually trying to tank. As a dancer you should already have macros for quickly using these in combat; instead of healing the main tank, you’ll be healing yourself.

It can be terrifying throwing yourself in the line of fire as a tank. You’ll quickly learn why most melee jobs don’t tank as you rack up hundreds of points of damage quickly and drop into the orange after only a few hits. Don’t panic! You’re not some dark knight or a thief that needs to pray for someone to provoke off them; you’re one of the best healing jobs in the game! Trust the healing skills you’ve built as a dancer. Remember, waltzes are effectively instant and can’t be interrupted. Once you get comfortable with holding your own life in the balance, dancer tanking is a lot less stressful.

TP manipulation, already a big part of playing dancer, becomes even more critical as a tank; the life you save is definitely your own. When you get critically hit for 220 damage, non-essential moves seem a lot less useful. You’ll more than likely find yourself having to skip sambas and weaponskilling is the fastest way to end on the floor. Save TP for curing yourself or others.

NEVER get lax on TP manipulation. NEVER waste TP on things you don’t need to do. As a tank, you have the duty of being the first line of party defense. Other jobs are counting on you to do your best so they can do theirs. Vigilance! The last few mobs may have been easy, but you never know when a high level IT will rip you apart. You’ll regret using a Cyclone weaponskill when you meet one of those bad boys.

You can use steps to build flourishes for reverse flourish as well. I found 2 steps was the easiest way to do it; you trade 20 TP to gain 48, plus you debuff the mob in the process. Three steps with a violent flourish also works; use 30 TP to gain 60 from reverse +5 from violent for a total of 65 TP. That’s a little more complicated to keep track of, but you get a potential stun as a bonus.

It can be tempting to save flourishes for animated flourish for hate control, but ultimately it will hurt your TP gain at the expensive of a job ability weaker than provoke. Focus more on reverse flourishing and holding hate with waltzes.

Even if you lose hate, it’s no big deal. It’s not like your dancer defense was that amazing anyway. If a melee pulls hate on a weaponskill, don’t panic. Instead of healing yourself, just heal them as they take damage. Eventually you’ll be able to regain hate. If the melee is taking too much damage for comfort or if you don’t have the TP, fire off a provoke.


Recommended level range

40+. Reverse Flourish is the ace in the hole that makes TP gain so much easier and things just get easier from then on up. Below 40 you could probably do it against the right mobs with a strong enough back line, but the emphasis would be less about you and more about your party members.


Gear

Accuracy – if you can’t hit, you can’t get TP. If you don’t have TP, you can’t cure yourself. If you aren’t curing yourself, it won’t take very many hits for the mob to rip through your soft, undefended flesh. Accuracy above all.

Evasion – Dancer evasion is up there with ninja; even on IT mobs you can evade attacks at a decent rate. Adding evasion gear will only make things easier on you.

Attack and STR – your damage output is a lost cause as a DD, but there’s no reason not to hurt the mobs if you can. After all, you have to hit them to get TP anyway.

VIT and Defense – VIT helps your curing moves that target yourself and more DEF will lower damage taken, but your defense is going to be a lost cause regardless. Generally speaking it’s probably better to find other pieces of gear unless something is too tempting to pass up.

Unless your gear setup is very odd, your standard dancer TP gain gear will probably be sufficiently for tanking, though you may want to take a closer look if you plan to try to sell yourself as a tank to parties frequently.


Subjob

Warrior. Note that heading says “subjob”, not “subjobs”. You’re still playing dancer with all the healing, debuffing, and TP manipulation the job requires. Counting shadows will only be distracting. Plus, trying to shadow tank with only utsusemi: ichi is an exercise in spell interruption anyway. Warrior gives you the useful Provoke for spike hate and Defender when your TP is running a bit low, plus some good job traits like defense bonus and double attack.

Because the hate it generates bleeds away, Provoke can be a crutch if you rely too much on it. I generally found myself trying to hold hate through cures and saved provoke for when my party members weaponskilled in order to buy time to build more cure hate.

Defender gets a lot of flak as one of the worst JAs in the game, but it cut the damage I was tanking from 110-130 to 80-90, a trade I was willing to make since my dagger hits were so weak anyway.


Food

Something I haven’t thought too much about, but probably sushi is still the way to go. Accuracy is your lifeline.


Problems

Accuracy – even with your gear and accuracy food, some mobs are naturally highly evasive, and others have TP moves that send their evasion soaring. If you aren’t hitting to generate TP you’re dead meat within moments. Make sure you have a dispeller to get rid of the TP moves as fast as you can, and it might be a good idea to avoid highly evasive mobs entirely as a DNC tank.

Holding Hate: Waltzes build good hate, but at times the party won’t require too much healing. Once again, warrior subjob shines. Provoke can build you some quick hate while you wait for people to get damaged. If you have TP to burn and only need to worry about keeping hate, toss berserk up as well.

Status Ailments: Healing Waltz can remove a status effect from anyone in the party, but it costs 20 TP and has a pretty long delay timer. As such, you generally want to avoid using it as much as you can in order to keep TP for keeping yourself alive. If your backline isn’t watching status effects it’s easy to get bogged down in multiple status effects. Blind in particular is troublesome; it’s not too detrimental to most jobs and so rarely gets removed, but to a dancer where missed hits leads to less TP and lots of pain very quickly, you have to watch out.

Overwhelming Damage: The biggest risk to a dancer tank is taking more damage than you have the TP to waltz away. This is the big fear that stops people from being dancer tanks, but honestly it wasn’t that big of a deal for me. Even when fighting IT mobs, the only time I felt overwhelmed was when the rest of my party wasn’t supporting me very well with curing and debuffing spells of their own. Even so, this happens every now and then. As a tank, you need to be able to get yourself out of tight spots to protect the rest of the party. Having a decent amount of TP built up as a buffer can keep you afloat for a while. If all else fails, there’s your 2-hour Trance to fall back on. Just be sure to pop it before you’re in the red.


Final Thoughts:

This isn’t theory; this is results. Dancers ARE tanking IT mobs in normal exp parties. You don’t need to go with your friends or to some special camp. You don’t need to buy amazingly expensive gear. All you need is a warrior subjob and a healthy amount of courage. Dancers have already proven themselves an extremely powerful healer. It’s time to take the job to the next level as a reliable tank as well. Good luck!

Edited, Feb 17th 2008 6:29pm by Erecia
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#2 Feb 17 2008 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Very nice...Maybe sticky? If we want people to stop complaining about the lack of tanks, we should make the alternatives more obvious.
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#3 Feb 17 2008 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You’re not some dark knight or a thief that needs to pray for someone to provoke off them


I wouldn't add thf there personally, but sounds as if you had fun which is important. Congrats and good job.



Edited, Feb 17th 2008 11:42pm by Dreyalove
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#4 Feb 17 2008 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Works somewhat at lower levels as well- I tanked a jungle party at 23 as /nin, so I didn't even have ichi at first (dinged later so I could have some shadows). It was rough but it worked. The biggest probelm I had was not in tp, it was landing steps to get the moves to use animated flourish. Luckily other members didn't mind the shaky hate to long as we were actually winning and getting exp.
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#5 Feb 17 2008 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Dreyalove of the Seven Seas wrote:
Quote:
You’re not some dark knight or a thief that needs to pray for someone to provoke off them


I wouldn't add thf there personally, but sounds as if you had fun which is important. Congrats and good job.



I wouldn't add drk there personally, bust sounds as if you had fun which is important. Congrats and good job.



;)


OP, thanks for sharing. I've done this a few times now, with good results. Glad to see some more people stepping out of the "DNC is only a support job" roll.
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#6RosannaRue, Posted: Feb 17 2008 at 9:59 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This doesn't make any sense... The point of a tank is damage mitigation, NOT hate holding. DNC do NOT have this. You'd be better off having no tank and sharing hate between party members OR subbing nin (why the **** are you subbing war?? You can keep hate fine with cures + flourish). I don't care if you can stay alive as a tank, so can any other melee in the party, and you'd be better off curing a war/nin than yourself.
#7 Feb 17 2008 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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RosannaRue wrote:
The point of a tank is damage mitigation, NOT hate holding.

3 main components of tanking:
1. Survivability
2. Hate holding
3. Damage mitigation

They must exist in the same time

I wouldn't call hate bouncing is a real tanking.

PLD and NIN easily pass those 3 requirement
When (3) becomes obsolete for PLD/WAR, they will sub NIN
When (2) becomes obsolete for NIN, they will sub DRK

THF can do (1) and (3) at the same time but not (2), hence you can't make THF as a primary tank.

Edited, Feb 17th 2008 10:08pm by VZX
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#8 Feb 17 2008 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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RosannaRue wrote:
This doesn't make any sense... The point of a tank is damage mitigation, NOT hate holding. DNC do NOT have this.

With defender up I was taking less damage per hit than any of the melees on the front line, but I freely admit my poor defense. I maintain that the point of the tank IS hate holding hate. People need to know where the damage is going in order to cure effectively. Not every melee job subs ninja, after all, and essentially all of them are less suited for taking damage than dancer is.

Quote:
(why the **** are you subbing war?? You can keep hate fine with cures + flourish).

No. In addition to animated flourish being weak as heck, it cuts into flourished used for reverse flourish, which ultimately hurts TP generation leading to less TP to heal people.

Quote:
You'd be better off having no tank and sharing hate between party members OR subbing nin I don't care if you can stay alive as a tank, so can any other melee in the party, and you'd be better off curing a war/nin than yourself

Except for the fact that we couldn't find a war/nin and probably wouldn't be able to talk one into tanking in the 50s even if we did. Most melee jobs are firmly cowardly at that level and for good reason - their def is no better than ours. Besides, curing people frequently on DNC builds HUGE amounts of hate, so you'll be tanking sooner or later, intentional or not. Dancers know this; it's why I see nearly every dancer in the 50s and 60s wearing crow gear in an attempt to lower their enmity. I simply chose the opposite path, to embrace the huge hate of the cure spells in order to be a tank.
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#9 Feb 17 2008 at 11:54 PM Rating: Default
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i wish people like you were around when tanking as a sam was porposed. but no and because no said anything rmt's were able to dig there claws further in to our gil as we buy shihi.
(fyi it was rmt who made the majority belive that tanking as a sam was stupid)


very informative.i will me trying this out
thank you

Edited, Feb 18th 2008 3:12am by equlix
#10 Feb 18 2008 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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just got back from tanking as a dnc @ level 40,


i did well, no one died but me once

other than getting hit hard when shadows were down it was ok i guess




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#11 Feb 18 2008 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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used animated flourish and divine waltz to keep hate
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#12 Feb 18 2008 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually did ALOT of this from 20 -> 38 (where I stoped leveling). Unless your have a 2nd DNC/NIN, WAR/NIN, or SAM/WAR don't bother with /NIN tanking. Ichi sucks to use, and recasting it mid fight is stupid. Plus as DNC, you tank through insane hate from healing the damage monsters are doing to you, if your blinking away hits then your not taking (as much) damage so your not building hate. Animated Flourish is weaker then provoke (same hate as Flash/Stun). I used it alot on DNC/WAR tanking though, mostly cause I didn't have Reverse Flourish which would seem to be a better source of hate generation. Provoke -> A.Flourish -> H.Waltz and I was set the the lower levels. After 40 I can definitely see skipping it and just Voke -> H.Waltz and storing tons of TP for cures.

Note on the sambas, I would highly recommend keeping the highest level drain samba on at all times, the amount of HP cured over its lifetime FAR exceeds anything else out there. Or if your have a BLU in your pt, and the monster has MP, then aspir samba and they'll love you LONG time ^.-
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#13 Feb 18 2008 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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I wouldn't trust them to be able to keep hate without a thf, but with onw it might be viable.


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#14 Feb 18 2008 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Nah, keeping hate was ridiculously easy due to all the curing of myself I had to do. Think of a WHM spamming high level cure spells while not wearing any enmity down gear.
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#15 Feb 18 2008 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I love the idea, and among friends it is viable, but i doubt i would do a pickup party as the main tank with no dedicated healer, and unreliable companions. I have been backup tank, first voke, heck i make THFs happy b/c my ability to cure people for so much (gg taru chr and macro'd cheap chr gear) and grab hate in time for him to close a **** skillchain onto the tank (<3 thf), so i see the temptatation, but the party's livelihood lies in your hands when you are solo tanking, and i see too much situational dependence with my dancer doing it.

As the solo tank i would think there would be a major limitation on what kind of mobs you can go after in xp. Crabs or Crawlers or either color would be fine but i could see a spider, lizard, or mamool utterly and completely destroying us without someone to pull hate away or throw us a few bigger cures. I have solo'd quite a bit up to VTs, but with only 666 hitpoints at 49 including 4 hp merits, i still have to be deathly careful what mobs i pick fights with, regardless of who is around.

I love the theory, and again if you have a static or good group of friends it would work, especially if one had a voke just in case things got intense, but you tell an xp party "oh, we can't go there, the mobs are too evasive, hit too hard, etc" and you will probably get booted ; ; ; Maybe my observations are based on my limited skill, or since i am nin main maybe i am spoiled by not having to blood tank, either way I love the idea, think this should be stickied and am rating you up, but if you are on odin and doing a pickup party, please do not invite me to be the solo tank :-p I am pretty and fragile...like a china doll!
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#16 Feb 18 2008 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you, Erecia, for this post. I guess I'll have to take up DNC when my current tanking jobs are done.

It's sad that so many people discount different jobs' abilities to tank. I've now tanked on WAR to 30, PLD to 64 (and still going), BLU to 55, and SAM to 50. In fact, I'm kind of known as the defacto tank in my LS due to my love of tanking. Perhaps the most thrown about quote in my LS right now was one said by me when I was ridiculed for tanking as SAM: "If it can take a hit, it can tank."

That statement is a broad over-generalization, of course. There's a lot more to tanking than that. And, as a PLD, the number one lesson I learned was that it doesn't matter WHO was getting hit so long as I knew where the hateline was and had control over who was above it or not. The higher the hate line, the more fully the DDs can go.

I think VZX hit the nail on the head. If you find a way to cover those three main points, then tanking is certainly viable. And for a DNC, 2 and 3 come from the same ability: using tp to cure. Makes it a lot more viable.
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#17 Feb 18 2008 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Erecia wrote:
Think of a WHM spamming high level cure spells while not wearing any enmity down gear.


Unless someone else called it first...

DNC AF will have SOME Enmity+ on it ^ ^

Im almost 45, (duunno if that's a good place to start subbing WAR...) but DNC tank sounds like fun, and it doesn't require as much gil as NIN with their tools or as much DEF gear and DEF food which gets costly little by little as a PLD.

But seriously... if DNC becomes the next tank... above jobs like a "Stoic Killing Machine" that is a SAM... or a "BIG BRAWLY TOUGH AS NAILS" WAR... then I wont even know what to think anymore...

The job that everyone regarded as a pansy, (especially when they see males, especially Galka) dancing and taking up the role of the "third tank" above other jobs that seemed to fit the bill better than a DNC... becomes a tank...

Glad i didn't toss all my low lvl evasion gear when i lvl'd THF... it's SO becoming more usefull as I lvl up, plus the 75 evasion set I have will soon go to my DNC = pwn
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#18 Feb 18 2008 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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Nah, keeping hate was ridiculously easy due to all the curing of myself I had to do. Think of a WHM spamming high level cure spells while not wearing any enmity down gear.


i thought dances produced relatively little enmity?
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#19 Feb 18 2008 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gosh no. Dances get you tons of enmity. I've ended up tanking or back up tanking several times without intending to -- usually I'm riding somewhere around second or third on the hate list, and that's if I'm not main healer.
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#20 Feb 18 2008 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Dancers can tank until a certain point, I'm unaware of what time this is, as I can no longer do it at 65, but I've seen DNCs tanking at 55 :/

I believe the cut off is when you begin to fight colibris, due to Pecking Flurry, Snatch Morsel, and Feather Tickle
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#21 Feb 18 2008 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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This is actually funny that Dnc tanking is being brought back up now but when Dnc first came out I and maybe a handful of other Dnc's were telling everyone on KI that Dnc was a tank. I actually tanked mine from 15-62. As far as colibri, there are other mobs to exp on during that level range. I tanked and I never had hate problems. And as I got higher in level I wore more +enmity gear. My food of choice was Tav Tacos. The only reason I stopped tanking with Dnc was because my War is only 31 and I didnt want to be gimped in my party. I have been away from the game for about a month now but I personally dont see a point in regular exp parties where Dnc can not tank effectively.
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#22 Feb 19 2008 at 1:01 AM Rating: Good
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It is certain that dnc tank+colibri is impossible. Giving the fact that 9 out of 10 party wants to go there from 55 onward, I see where tanking stop, not because of ability per see, but because of mob selection.
Of course going back to Boyada to kill crab would do the trick, but better to get any job /nin and pawn the weak colibris (at least for most ppl) sharing hate, since they dont have aoe and dont requiere much healing.
#23 Feb 19 2008 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It is certain that dnc tank+colibri is impossible.


We can't tank as well in the traditional capacity on birds, but then again it's difficult for even established tank jobs to handle colibri properly. We can still dual tank them, but we're especially good at backup tanking.

At those levels is viable to have your melee /nin and go crazy on the birds. You dont need a tank job this way, and DNC is more than capable of keeping them all alive with drain samba and waltzes.

That being said, I have tanked Colibri before with little difficulty (did it yesterday), you just need some patience and a good handle on utsusemi timing.(Evasion merits help too) I suspect tanking most things will only become easier as access is gained to more eva skill+ gear(level 65 right now) and joyeuse(so excited).
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#24 Feb 19 2008 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Very good information. No pressure, but you DNC mains now have the chance to show the community and thereby SE what DNC can really do, and SE in turn could support it. There are many huge misconceptions about tanking. RosannaRue, have you actually leveled a job as tank beyond 50?

I may be a "retired" PLD, but I took PLD and tanking to heart as my main and did my best to be the best tank I could possibly be. The best thing DNCs can do right now to push the job towards being a viable tank is learning all about hate from the "established" tanks (i.e. NIN and PLD) and spread the information to the DNC community and the XI community at large such as Erecia has done.

Allow me to quote myself from a thread made by a fellow PLD who was having trouble with hate on what I think it truly means to be a tank:

Caes wrote:
I would say the redefined goal for a PLD in exp should not be either "mitigate damage" or "maintain hate" alone, black and white, end all, be all. Rather, it is to both "maintain an adequate amount of hate and mitigate an adequate amount of damage such that the flow of exp remains efficient and consistent at a satisfactory level given the PLD's and the entire party's resources." If maintaining that exp means dropping either damage mitigation or your own enmity, so be it. Your resources and the entire party's resources means anything from Refresh to carrying more enmity/DD-centric gear to having competent players in your support and DD roles to back you up. Of course, that satisfactory amount of experience is entirely subjective. The good PLD (a good player, even) is the one who constantly strives to find that "best fit" scenario and avoids absolutes, as only a Sith deals in absolutes.


Survivability is quite basic in that you can not tank what can kill you in one hit. Common sense, but it goes beyond that to an acceptable level of damage mitigation. There is no solid, arbitrary number on this as it depends on, again, the tank and the party's resources in achieving an acceptable rate of experience. But that does prove that you DO NOT need to be a brick wall blood tank to tank effectively. Sure, there will be some mobs you should not tank as DNC just as there are some mobs NIN should not tank and, yes, some mobs PLD really should not tank. The only reason this becomes in issue in exp seems to be that people are creatures of habit, and we get deadset on a formulaic process to leveling that includes only going to the same spots each time we level to fight the same type of mobs. This is particularly harmful to exp when a pt tries to overhunt in an effort to get more experience. The end result tends to be more detrimental when you try to force a particular pt setup to exp in a camp that the pt is really not optimized for.

And who feels it the worst? The tank, either in taking too much damage, or having to tank a very strong mob for five minutes and thus making it seem like they can't hack it when really it's the whole pt that is failing to kill the mobs efficiently. It is often a main solo tank who seems to have shoulder this burden when really the whole pt should work to find the best possible exp environment available.

Just as some extra, misc tips:

PLD does not Provoke every 30 seconds and Flash every 45 seconds as a crutch for holding hate. PLD does this to set a bar for hate so high that it allows the heavy DDs to really unload at a more consistent rate. But this is a given in the way PLD tanks. DNC may even want to maintain hate at a lower bar, specifically in a situation where the DNC has competent co-tanks to back them up, if only for a few seconds. So in this case you might lower your own enmity as in my definition.

Curing is not so much generating hate (except in the case of high enmity gear or perhaps any base extra enmity generated by the waltz as Job abilities) as it is mending lost hate from damage taken. At the same time, you are helping to curb damage mitigation and your own health recovery, which in turn leads to less outside sources of healing (so less enmity generated by other healers) and furthermore less downtime in MP recovery. This is why PLD (and perhaps now DNC) are so good at maintaining a set bar of hate.

Anyway, I could go on and on, but I ramble waaay too much for my own good. In short, the basic message is: Tanking can not and should never be reduced to a single statement like "you must mitigate a ton of damage." It's situational.

Keep up the great work! Here's to hoping DNC tank can be legitimized! But keep your main healing capabilities. Trust me, it's better to be flexible in this game. One thing that was a little disappointing about PLD was being forced to tank only and sub WAR for about 70 levels.
#25 Feb 19 2008 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ill share a little of my experience but first I just want to add that I gave up on trying to show people that Dnc can tank because of the sheep mentality and the trolls that flame for no reason. With that said, I was able to hold hate with no problem through out most of the levels until I was the tank for a party in KRT. We were fighting Bats and the Drk and the meritted War were stealing hate from time to time. I was always able to get hate back but it was the first time ever that I had hate leave me. For the Colibri levels, I went to the Mire right outside Nashmua. The marsh mure there were good exp till 60. Another alternative were Puks.

The way I would be able to gauge if I could tank an IT would be if I could get it to hit me for 60-90 after using food and defender. 100+ a hit would be a bit much and it is harder to keep TP up if I was gettin hit that hard.

My gear was mainly Acc and Eva gear. +Enmity gear was macroed in on Waltz. I had a set playing style on how to grab and keep hate on me at all times. I even had a Pld come to one of my parties because the Brd in the party at the time was telling her LS how well I was doing so he came to see if he would keep hate from me. We tried on Two mobs. The Pld was able to keep the first and the second went back and fourth at the start but then he was able to keep hate towards the end but he exhausted all of his MP in doing so. The third mob and every mob after that I was able to keep from him because he could not maintain enough MP to keep up. He later left the party because he wanted to play "golf".

Anyways Dnc tanking was the only way I played Dnc from 15-62. Im 69 now but I have been away from the game for about 2 months now. From my experience Dnc is a tank. Sure we support heal very well also but for me tanking just made more sense because we can generate soo much enmity. For those of you that want to try tanking, go right ahead. For the others that do not like it, go ahead and play it the way you like. Im not saying that anyone SHOULD tank. This is just my experience with the job and I felt like sharing.
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#26 Feb 21 2008 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Anurid wrote:
It is certain that dnc tank+colibri is impossible. Giving the fact that 9 out of 10 party wants to go there from 55 onward, I see where tanking stop, not because of ability per see, but because of mob selection.
Of course going back to Boyada to kill crab would do the trick, but better to get any job /nin and pawn the weak colibris (at least for most ppl) sharing hate, since they dont have aoe and dont requiere much healing.


I disagree, but only because of Reverse Flourish. Colibri are definitely a "use it or lose it" for TP if you're going to try and tank one. Step early, step often, and reserve Reverse for any Feather Tickles to keep yourself running.

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#27 Feb 21 2008 at 3:30 PM Rating: Default
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no offense, but i'd prefer dnc not to be a tank when it comes to af armor and future weapon design. 1-70ish tanking is a small part of the game, and endgame there are no shortage of tanks that can sub dnc to do what we can better. I have tanked although more in a crisis sense, but the job will just become a paladin mark 2 if tanking becomes its focus, and instead it needs to be developed to thrive in the new world pass midgame exp.
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#28 Feb 23 2008 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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ive been a tank all my ffxi life. lvling dnc to 74 so far has been an awesome experience. as you get closer to 75 it seems more and more like a combination of thf, brd and whm. I can DD and do 500-600 dmg dancing edges with building flourish on IT + mobs, i can main heal, and yes...as erecia says...i can tank. High evasion helps here as well as the evasion bonus. The obvious downfall is our defense. i think its merely 230ish at lvl 74. aka u get raped. For this reason id stick to /nin. if ur truly a main tank with no support animated flourish and divine waltz is more than enough to hold hate. I dont know if its only because i have capped enm...but i see some hate transfer from drain samba cast. I dont, however, see the same from haste samba for some reason. Violent flourish helps if u need to recast ichi (prior to 74 ofcourse) and the stun effect procs WAY more often on vt mobs then IT +. So keep that in mind if a pty asks you to be a true main tank. Worse comes to worse u mess up shadows and start cure bombing yourself....not like its a drain on mp or anything. I think the job is a nice support tank (i had ppl TA me tons while lower lvl exp'n), an ok support job (haste samba mainly), and an ok main heal (recast timers only thing not making this job the best main heal option 1-75 in exp ptys). Its the only job that does well at performing all three functions (brd/whm and cor/rdm cant touch our cure capacity due to their lack of mp).

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#30 Mar 07 2008 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
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Just wanted to add my testimony to Dancer tanking.

Today I tanked the 40-cap mammet fight for CoP as DNC/WAR. Our group had 3 tanks and 3 mages, one mage to support each tank. We pulled the mammets far afield to avoid aoes and went to town.

By the end of the fight, the Ninja and the Paladin were both deep into the red and had gone through many hi-pots and refresh drinks, while I was cruising along well above 3/4 hps and keeping hate off my blm backup like a champ. :)

Okay, yes I'm bragging.

Still, I was only using average evasion gear, a tavnazian taco, and an icarus wing during the whole thing. It was ridiculously easy. As long as you can build tp faster than they can hurt you, Dancer is incredibly difficult to kill. With provoke + animated flourish, I had some form of spike hate every 15 seconds, plus cure bombing myself--I don't think my mammet ever glanced at the black mage, who was free to nuke pretty hard without having to worry about curing me.

Felt good to know DNC can contribute to CoP ^^

edited because i can't spell

Edited, Mar 7th 2008 3:18am by Vallija

Edited, Mar 7th 2008 3:20am by Vallija
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#31 Mar 23 2008 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sitting in Whitegate right now looking for a party, and somebody is repeatedly shouting the following:

{Party} 47-50 {Meat} {Shield} {Can I have it?} Paladin Ninja or Dancer {Can I have it?}

It looks like some people are starting to think we make an acceptable tank.
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#32 Mar 24 2008 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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Success!
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#33 Mar 24 2008 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Woot, rock on :D
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#34 Mar 25 2008 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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I started dnc a few days ago, level 20 now. I want to -TANK-. When dnc first came out I'd invite them as tanks and they'd get ****** off, so I figured I'd find out why. They seem perfect for the job to me... constantly healing yourself gathers so much hate. I haven't gotten to do it yet though, but I hope it works out.
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#35 Mar 25 2008 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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DNC/BLU FTW? Cocoon is just rediculous for def.

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#36 Mar 25 2008 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't seen anything interesting from DNC/BLU. Cocoon only lasts a minute and few of the other spells are worthwhile. Plus you'd have a very shallow MP poor and no real MP gear to boost it that wouldn't hinder your performance as a DNC.

BLU/DNC, on the other hand, is good times.
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#37 Mar 25 2008 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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I have -enmity merited quite a bit, yet I still could effectivly tank from lvl 15-40+. DNC/NIN wasnt too hard to tank with. When my shadows were down, I'd stun and start casting again. DNC/NIN is just like ninja pre-ni levels. Just get a nice evasion build and those 3 shadows will last for awhile. I see 75DNC/NIN as a great solo job. You have a good evasion skill, evasion bonus JT, high curing capability, ability to stun harmful TP moves or to recast ichi easier, weight in case you need to kite until timers are ready, and probably a bunch of other things I havnt thought about.

Dancer is a great supstitute for tanking from low to mid level ranges.
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#38 Mar 25 2008 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Just wanted to let yall know that I really Like this thread just because it is a true discussion about one aspect of dancer that quickly died out after their lack of tanking and more along the lines of healing came about!
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#39 Mar 31 2008 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I haven't seen anything interesting from DNC/BLU. Cocoon only lasts a minute and few of the other spells are worthwhile. Plus you'd have a very shallow MP poor and no real MP gear to boost it that wouldn't hinder your performance as a DNC.

BLU/DNC, on the other hand, is good times.


You don't need much MP. The only spell you would be using is Cocoon.

Its 90sec of 50% defense bonus for 10mp lol. One pinapple juice will keep you going for 12 mins without any other refresh. If you can make them, thats like 500gil/hour for a 50% defense boost.

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#40FreeFlier, Posted: Mar 31 2008 at 11:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) in all honesty, the 2 probs with dnc tank that i can see is endgame and crappy equipment/crappy pty setup and cooperation.
#41 Mar 31 2008 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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FreeFlier wrote:
what happens when a sam, drk, mnk, rng, drg, etc pulls hate unexpectedly, drk is main example from souleater and really horrid def, how can the dnc pull hate back? with a pld u can flash/shield bash then get into position for cover...

You let them get hit and take some damage, then fire off a waltz on them and cure them instead of you. It's relatively low risk since the waltz is an instant job ability, so unless they're blinking like mad you can get it off easily.

I'm not sure if I stressed it very well in the OP, but I essentially never lost hate on DNC tank, and it wasn't from the melees not trying. My life was almost constantly in danger, but losing hate was a complete non-issue.

FreeFlier wrote:
i think dnc can tank within reason but there are better tanks around...

Yeah, that's the thing. There aren't better tanks around. Lots of people have leveled PLD and NIN by now, and WAR's are more cowardly than my DNC when it comes to provoke. This was written to encourage dancers to try to tank in an exp situation where there were no normal tanks to be had.

Dancers tanking in endgame, no, perhaps not, but this was just supposed to be a beginning. I didn't have any fancy setup or really put a whole heck of a lot of thought into how it was going to work. If dancer tanking doesn't go anywhere, well, okay, but I can say I've done it.

Edit: and wtf, cover? Are we playing the game? My entire career leveling paladin I think I had one or two melees that would help me out with cover. It's pretty much a dead job ability in 2008's TP burn parties.

Edited, Mar 31st 2008 3:37pm by Erecia
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#42FreeFlier, Posted: Mar 31 2008 at 11:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) do me a favor, get a *** nin/war, pld/nin, or pld/war and plz tell them there is no better tank than a dnc/(ur choice on sub). when they laugh and call u a gaijin (cant remember the actual spelling), maybe u will see a real tank. u will see a huge diff when playing with japanese players...
#43 Mar 31 2008 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Errr... yeah. Thanks for the, um, tips? Please go away now Mr. Ego Paladin. I'm sorry that a job with a silly rose in their hair can sufficiently replace you in an exp party.

PS: it's an unfair generalization perhaps, but all JP parties I've gotten in the past two years or so were still stuck in 2004. I do see a huge difference in partying with JP players; namely, a huge decrease in my overall exp/hour.
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#44FreeFlier, Posted: Mar 31 2008 at 12:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) mr ego pld? im not the one saying how perfect dnc is and how they are the best tank in the game. im pointing out flaws in the dnc tank. there are flaws in all tanks, pld main flaw is mp, but if you cant handle the critique tank 2 tank then you have the issues with ego. i have 1 full account with all 75's (save dnc and sch as i retired it b4 WotG came out) i understand tanking in exp, merit, nm, hnm, dynamis ptys. my main char on my new acct has dnc at 29 right now, and i can tell you already that dnc is not the best tank as you claim.
#45 Mar 31 2008 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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OP never said anything about DNC being a perfect tank. And...


Quote:
i have 1 full account with all 75's (save dnc and sch as i retired it b4 WotG came out)


oh wow. You're not even trying here.
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#46 Mar 31 2008 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Adding in a CoP experience, I tanked Promy-Vazhl as Dnc/nin with another nin/war, We bounced hate between us often and during the boss fight, When the second(or third) would join the brawl, I took control of it while still healing the pt with the blm. Dnc is extremely flexible and capable of doing both (Tanking and healing.) Its just sad that people insist on keeping dncs as support, dnc is getting the same thing rdms got when they were shoved into the backlines to play whm, completely ignoring its other capabilities.
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#47 Apr 01 2008 at 7:50 AM Rating: Default
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More game experience.

Partied with a group of mid-40's last night. Was able to do a decent job as tank until we added a true tank class. Could only generate enough hate to make the mob turn with devine cures after that... and then only for 20 seconds or so. The good news is that the party never chased after the mobs because our back line whm and blms were nuking and curing... the mobs stayed in the sword circle.

There are better tank classes out there, but we'll do as a second choice. Our job is very flexible, that is what's nice about it, but let's face it: a true tank class can do the job better.

If SE wants to give DNC some better weapons, and some better gear they might be able to move DNC from second tier tank to first tier.

Oh, and parties need to agree with DNC on what role they want to play in the party... TP and skill usage is very different using DNC as tank or in a support role.
#48 Apr 03 2008 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Since 15 I have been main tanking on my DNC, holding hate has never been an issue and my tp gain is fast enough to maintain constant cures and still not blow through my tp. Only time I came close to dying was when I ended up tanking 3 IT mobs(horrible linkage)I popped my 2hr and spammed the **** out of my cures only to die when it wore. we managed to kill all of the mobs but I died in thr process being the hero.

I plan on taking DNC to 75 and I was told that DNC does alot of tanking due to emense hate built by the cures so I look foward to more DNC tankage.
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#49 Apr 03 2008 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like to see your build and get a feel for your party makeups.

If I'm in a party with a PLD and a WHM, there is no need to spam cures just to be a tank...

There have been very few parties that I have been asked to tank, and when asked, its because there are no true tanks to be found. I can do it, but it is very easy to get into deficit TP spending in many cases.

Ultimately a class with voke and good damage can do better with tanking. PLD is the ultimate tank.
#50 May 10 2008 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Some things I would like to add to this. I have not attempted to tank traditional parties, but duo/trio is perfect...throw a rdm in for Dispel and I'm fine to cure myself and PT members that MAY pull hate. I'm level 50 btw, and I can throw out a CW3 for 350HP... I'm Galka as well, so at level 50 (with squid/sole sushi) I rack in 990ish HP. Now, for 50 TP, which i can generate in no time, i can cure nearly half my HP in one shot...not too much to worry about.

I could see DNC being a tank more often, but your HP might be something to watch. Taru's might want to wear some RSE for added HP.

My biggest problem wiht the job so far...level 49. Deleveled solo... Well, after the experience of using CW3 and only getting CW2 for that little length of time, I can see that level being a nuisance if you know what your getting in 7k exp.

Get yourself a great backline healer that you trust, and does not pull hate, and you can go nonstop on just about anything in your path...just grab a T if you have to, and towards the end, tell others to back out so you can build the TP and finishing moves. Keep track of every ability of your job...their your lifeline when either in party or solo.

Thanks for reading my ramblings about DNC. It's a great job...lets just hope SE doesn't mess it up for those of us who truly love the job.

Theode - Galka Dancer - Ragnarok

Edited, May 10th 2008 3:31pm by JamesLand
#51 May 13 2008 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I would just like to remind everyone NIN was never intended to be a tank when SE created it. However it is now a staple tank in the game, and my personal favorite job. I do also have PLD leveled, though only 57 right now, so I am not as confident in PLD tanking as I am with NIN tanking.

I am not saying DNC can or can't tank, as I have no experience with tanking as a DNC, justed wanted everyone to remember NIN was created as a DDing debuff job.
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