Sorry to break it to you but you're incredibly wrong. You're wildy overestimating the tiny "advantage" MNK has over PUP.
No, you're vastly underestimating it.
Just curious, but were all those calculations just comparing MNK to the PUP itself, without the puppet?
As a job that's 60-70% master, 30-40% pet, that could (very) roughly put PUP dmg totals at 461.364 - 599.958 dps?
I'm sure that in the ideal situation you described, the master is getting a ton of buffs that aren't applying to the puppet, so the balance is going to be skewed far more towards the master than that. And yes, that is just a semi-meaningless percentage calculation with no real data behind it other than playing with the numbers you provided.
Including some calculations that include the puppet would be a more accurate comparison, and would be less easily refuted. Your "might" is a pretty significant gap that you just kind of gloss over in your otherwise flawless argument.
There are several reasons I left out the pet's damage, two of which have already been brought up. The heavy AoE in theses situations makes it hard to keep the puppet alive, yes, but primarily, it's what xilk said; most of the pet damage equations are still unknown. We don't know exactly how pet pDIF, cRatio, fSTR, Weapon Rank, and Level Correction are handled. ****, we don't even know if attack, accuracy, defense, and evasion are calculated the same way. This makes it very difficult to give accurate math. My post was based purely on kinematics' spreadsheets, which can't currently account for pet damage, and I didn't want to include pure speculation. While the values for player stats are known, all we know for certain for the pet values is this:
- Automaton ranged attack pDIF caps at 3.0 like player ranged attack pDIF
- Neither Pet Melee nor Pet Ranged fSTR does not follow the same pattern as either fSTR (melee weapons) or fSTR2 (ranged weapons), but we cannot be certain that they follow the same pattern (ie: fSTR3 applied for all pet damage) or different patterns (fSTR3 for pet melee, fSTR4 for pet ranged)
--- Pet Ranged fSTR caps at a dSTR of 101 (102 str vs a target with 1 vit) which is ludicrously high, and pet melee attacks seem to follow this pattern as well (as evidenced by the avatar fSTR testing)
- Pet Ranged attacks do not work like player ranged attacks at all, and function somewhat like weaponskills or damaging job abilities. This is evidenced by the fact that they cannot crit, and have a very significant dex mod. Whether they're a ws or a JA depends on whether or not the dex mod is subject to an alpha value, which I've yet to determine
- Pets are subject to some sort of level correction adjustment that is very different from what players deal with (evidenced by how strong valoredge was vs kirin at 75 cap), but what that specific difference is we can't say for certain (My theories are either that pet pDIF floors at 1.0 like monster pDIF, or pet fSTR doesn't go into the negatives like player fSTR can (ie: oxyuranis has an fSTR range of -4 to 12, meaning that it can add up to 12 weapon damage but if your target has at least 20 vit more than you have str, it will reduce your weapon damage by 4 instead)
- I'm not even certain whether pet's melee attacks count as 1H or 2H attacks (ie: how they convert str/dex to atk/acc), because the more I play with valoredge to test this stuff, the more my gut is telling me that little clipper is getting counted as a 2h weapon.
@Jinte: Why are you still responding to anything Zelduh says about pup!? You proved solidly he has no credibility. Responding to him further implies he has any credibility.
Mostly because it entertains me, and I love the melodrama
Yeah, mostly playing DA, but actually curious as to how far behind we actually are. Jinte's player dmg calculations are fantastic, but neither side of the argument has any parses or calculations at the moment to show just how effective or ineffective the puppet would be in these fights. It just seems a total no-brainer that MNK>Master. PUP haters have been making that fallacy of a comparison ever since the job was released.
Dragonmaster's explanation that the puppet just can't survive long enough to deal much damage makes total sense. I've never done VW or Legion, or any other endgame zerg-style events, so I didn't realize the conditions of those fights (and holy cow, with that much dmg, how do zerg players survive, and why in god's name is SE designing fights that require dmg immunity? /endtangent), but I hope I'm making it clear that I'm not claiming to KNOW anything, but rather asking for clarification so that I understand better, and maybe other PUPs might have similar questions and be able to find answers as well.
So, from my admittedly limited perspective, Jinte made it sound as though Puppet dmg would count for something in such a fight, but didn't really provide any examples of why she was discounting its dmg contributions.
Again, not based on any hard data or calculations, but it doesn't seem implausible to me at all that a Sharpshot would be able to deal a WS every minute, right? And Armor Shatterer is generally 2500+ dmg (+def down on the mob. Does that stack with other forms of defense down I'm assuming have already been applied?).
Shooting at every 20 sec, gives you 3 Ranged Attacks (300 dmg each sound reasonable?) which will probably give at least 900-ish dmg.
Maybe 8-ish melee strikes with 400 delay and no haste, so close to 1000 dmg if all melee hits connect?
That's 4400-ish per minute from the puppet, and stretched out over 5 minutes, is 22,000 damage (pretty close to the 23.5k difference that Jinte said the puppet would never be able to make up).
Again, my assumptions could be totally off b/c I really don't have a clue about the def, evasion, resistances of the zerged mobs in question (though I'm still guessing that it would be reduced as much as possible for the zerging melees). I'm just saying that as a super casual, yet still enthusiastic PUP player, I'd like to know if my guess work has any foundation in reality so I can better understand this job I love :)
If you assume no maneuvers (and thus no drum magazine) but with turbo charger, then with 10.2 TP/melee hit and 9.3 per ranged attack, you'll have melee attacks every 6.5 seconds, and ranged attacks every 20 seconds. The puppet can't melee between starting the shooting animation and the attack landing, but as soon as the attack actually lands (even before it shows up in the chat log) it can attack, but I'm fairly sure there's at least
a 1 second delay, if not a full 2 second JA delay. This means that you'll get 2 melee swings in for each ranged shot, and a rare third depending on timing (you're not going to get 3 every time without more haste), so that's 3 ranged attacks and 6 melee attacks per minute, or 89.1 TP. Additionally, the puppet almost never weaponskills at 100%, and usually ends up holding it to anywhere from 120% to 150% on average, which means you're likely getting 1 ws every 2 or 3 minutes, rather than 1 every minute. This is kind of why turbo charger and drum magazine are so important for sharpshot's damage. Even if you add in an extra hit for random luck, that's still 99.3 TP/minute, and that's not even accounting for accuracy.
Sharpshot's going to have a base ranged acc of 444 and a base melee acc of 417 (both assuming that acc is calculated like player acc, because acc seems
to be fairly universal), both before attachments; with no maneuvers, Scope adds +10 r.acc, and Stab II adds +10 acc, so 454 and 427. The enemy used for the pup/mnk comparison had 485 eva, and was at level 106. This would give a raw hit rate of 45.5% for ranged attacks, and 27% for melee attacks, but since we don't know exactly how target marker works, I can't really account for it. The current theory I know of was ignoring 15% evasion per maneuver, but we know it works without maneuvers, and I haven't seen the testing for those numbers to know how accurate they are. If they are the case, then it would reduce Qilin's evasion to 412 effectively (if 15% with no maneuvers), which would give 82% ranged hit rate and 63.5% melee hit rate, which honestly sounds about right.
Without TM, you're talking 1 in 2 ranged attacks landing and 3 in 10 melee attacks; so over 5 minutes, 6~7 of 15 ranged attacks and 8 of 30 Melee attacks. I shouldn't need to show you the TP return for how abysmal that is to be clear. With the theoretical TM, 12 of 15 ranged attacks, and 19 of 13 melee attacks, or 305.4 TP, and given how the puppet holds TP like crazy, that's 2 WS. Now, This is further exacerbated by the fact that Qilin has 120 vit, and there's no feasible way for sharpshot's 92 STR to even equal that (3x FM with AF gloves bonus and cirque gloves +2 gives a total of +37 str, or 129), let alone pass it, so sharpshot's dSTR is going to be utterly miserable.