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PUP Magian weapons?Follow

#1 Aug 13 2012 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Hey,

So I started leveling PUP again after coming back and also thought I'd start a magian trial weapon for it. Now I have no idea what weapon is good except I heard something about STR path being good. I have MNK leveled and use Brawny for it, are they okay at all or crap for PUP? I won't be going for Vere, but aside from that I think I could manage most trials.

Also, I was wondering if any of the multi hit weapons are at all useful? I have a feeling they aren't, but yeah... Lastly, I will mostly duo and do old content/abbysea not VW and that sort of stuff if that at all matters.

Thanks in advance for any insights!

Edited, Sep 7th 2012 7:40pm by Kaolian Lock Thread: Thread derailed. Start a new one if you like, but people posting in it need to leave the drama elsewhere...
#2 Aug 13 2012 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
As far as non-Magian h2h weapons go, the Brawny Adargas are the second best in the game right now, right behind the Girru from Legion. If you're not planning on making a Verethragna, the +Str path is a good alternative.

The only real thing that the multi-hit h2h had going for them back in the day was using them with Footwork on Mnk, relying on Tornado Kick for damage. For Pup though they've never been very good, so I'd recommend avoiding those in favor of something like the +Str path.
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#3 Aug 13 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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I guess that was what I expected, but it's too bad... I would have liked multi-hit to be of more use since it is more fun. :)

Anyway thanks for the help Vlor!
#4 Aug 13 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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Agree w/ Vlor on the STR path. Overall it is likely the best ele trial for PUP we get the most use from the str + Att.

I would also recomend the Auto's -PDT earth path as well , comes in handy for VE tank situations.

I have seen several PUP's w/ the wind AGL + Evasion path though I personally don't see the need vs fire path.

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#5 Aug 18 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Okay so I started the STR path and will slowly work towards that when I have time. I am curious though, I haven't done any Abyssea at all except for exping (I just got back to the game after yet another break) and I am not sure what gear to get. I do have some gil so I could probably get a pretty decent setup from the AH if that is at all possible. What items would you guys suggest I get as placeholders until I can get Abyssea going a little. Mainly I am interested in solo gear.

Thanks in advance!
#6 Aug 20 2012 at 4:55 AM Rating: Good
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Hard to beat PUP's Empy Gear Most of the +1 items are soloable , the rest are easily obtained through /shouts or my favorite method head out to the mob pop and ask other groups <Can I have it?>. Try to do the last method on a yellow proc job though.
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#7 Aug 20 2012 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
Hey,

So I started leveling PUP again after coming back and also thought I'd start a magian trial weapon for it. Now I have no idea what weapon is good except I heard something about STR path being good. I have MNK leveled and use Brawny for it, are they okay at all or crap for PUP? I won't be going for Vere, but aside from that I think I could manage most trials.

Also, I was wondering if any of the multi hit weapons are at all useful? I have a feeling they aren't, but yeah... Lastly, I will mostly duo and do old content/abbysea not VW and that sort of stuff if that at all matters.

Thanks in advance for any insights!


The Best h2h Weapons for pup:
1: Kenkonken
2: Verethragna
3: Girru
4: Oxyuranis (STR path)
4.5: Brawny Adargas
5: Oxyuranis (DEX path)
6: Shara's Fists
7: Duzumi (WoE VS weapon, which is really not worth the bother because VS performance without Verethragna isn't any different than stringing pummel or shijin spiral for pup)
That's based purely on my looking up the stats really quick. I might have missed one or two, and everything after kenkonken may have its order shifted depending on the actual math, but this is most of them. That also only speaks in terms of melee.

Obviously, the STR path are the best magian trial for damage, but they also take the most time, and are the most annoying to make. Both the AGI/Eva and Pet: MAB trials are useful for pup, and are incredibly easy to make (You can get all the kill trials done in a single day for either weapon, after that it's just a matter of getting geodes/ites) and have the same dmg/delay as the STR path, so they're a decent option to hold you over while you grind fire weather/geodes.

My list is:
Pet: MAB (Done)
Evasion (almost done, I've been lazy getting my breeze geodes)
Pet: PDT (Working on it, I had planned on it but never got around to it before I went on break)
Pet: MDB (Also working on it, because I was thoroughly impressed by it after playing with it on the test server)
STR (Working on it slowly, because it's such a pain in the *** to do, and I'm incredibly lazy)

Also, in defense of the EVA claws, the +27~8 EVA on them (after AGI) is enough to nearly cap your evasion rate on almost anything but the most annoying NMs, meaning you can use them and your normal TP set and not experience any issue. You don't really need them for regular mobs, skill and Evasion Bonus IV are typically more than enough there, but the extra chunk helps to cap you off against some of the weaker NMs. Honestly, at this point, using an evasion set is pretty much doing it wrong, unless you're not engaged, and are kiting something with ludicrous accuracy, but honestly.... what would that be? Smiley: laugh

I will also point out that the DEX magian claws are a relatively strong competitor purely by the nature of shijin spiral's 100% dex mod, and less because our best ws being multihits. They're not in the top 5 like the STR claws, but they're still very good weapons, and are relatively easier than the STR path, for those who aren't really willing/able to put in the stupid amount of effort/money the STR claws need right now.

Vlorsutes wrote:
As far as non-Magian h2h weapons go, the Brawny Adargas are the second best in the game right now, right behind the Girru from Legion. If you're not planning on making a Verethragna, the +Str path is a good alternative.

The only real thing that the multi-hit h2h had going for them back in the day was using them with Footwork on Mnk, relying on Tornado Kick for damage. For Pup though they've never been very good, so I'd recommend avoiding those in favor of something like the +Str path.


Oxyuranis (STR Path) vs Brawny Adargas is a fairly even wash, favoring the magian weapon a bit, especially for pup, since we're always a little behind in terms of attack. That said, there's some disgustingly twisted irony that a pair of adargas are one of the best h2h weapons in the game right now.

Belcrono wrote:
Okay so I started the STR path and will slowly work towards that when I have time. I am curious though, I haven't done any Abyssea at all except for exping (I just got back to the game after yet another break) and I am not sure what gear to get. I do have some gil so I could probably get a pretty decent setup from the AH if that is at all possible. What items would you guys suggest I get as placeholders until I can get Abyssea going a little. Mainly I am interested in solo gear.

Thanks in advance!


Pup is one of the rare jobs that has a stupidly strong AF3 set. Most other jobs have gotten some/most of the pieces cleanly replaced by now, or never had them in the first place, and some only got pieces that were clearly TP only or WS only. Pup got lucky. Our body, hands, and legs are all strong for TP and WS, and are still strong competitors even with other gear now available. Our head is still a very strong TP piece, and our boots are still one of our best ws pieces (and TP, if you can afford to use boots without haste). As for gear to hold you over, The Aurore set is excellent, regardless of the stigma. The body and legs are very strong pieces that dance all over almost everything we had available at 75, and the boots are very competitive by the nature of "every single one of our ******* TP boots has 2% haste" though that's less so now, because there are a couple not ridiculous to get (0/750ish on those 3% haste kokugetsu sune-ate) options with 3% haste if needed. What gear you use now will depend a bit on what you had at 75. Usukane body and feet are still excellent, and are stronger than aurore. Usukane pants vs aurore pants depends on how much acc you need. Walmart turban is still a handy option, and will hold you over nicely until you get your Cirque Capello +1. Beyond that, I'd need to know what gear you had to work with.

As for the Cirque set itself;
Leg seals are stupidly easy to get, the quest for them is just so ******* easy, and so ******* cheap.
Feet, body, and hand seals are all relatively easy to solo once you've got a couple of the more appropriate atma.
For that, feet come easiest from Gnawtooth Gary, who you can fight in your sleep once you've got minikin monstrocity to keep soulsoother refreshed.
Hands, for me, came from Sharabha, who takes a little practice to get used too, and benefits from having a decent MDT set (but I solo'd my hands entirely before the addition of Shell V) and I did him without the +earth resist atma (Dragua hates me. Killed him twice with red proc and neither time did the atma drop)
Body, I split between koios, and the quest in altepa, because the quest is easy, just a bit time consuming, and koios is a joke, but requires a bit of luck to claim because there's usually competition.
Head, I got from Blazing Eruca, but I never solo'd it because it was a pain in the *** to deal with back then. It's probably fairly easy to solo now, though.

Of course, even if you can do them solo, it's always faster to bring a blm with you to proc yellow and up the drop rate.

As for +2s, I'mstill working on that, because I went on break from the game before I got tothe point of getting them easily, and I've found that none of them drop from easily soloable mobs. I'm nnot trying very hard, though. Smiley: laugh
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#8 Aug 21 2012 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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Okay, I will have to work a bit on AF3 +1 then. I don't think I will be able to solo much so will have to work on it with groups, but I don't mind that.

THe items I have is basically a few MNK pieces (really wish we could use more of the items like Brego gloves, but it does seem a lot better now than it used to be when PUPs were apparently mages heh).

Head: Ocelomeh
Body: Juogi
Hands: Aurore
Legs: Aurore
Feet: Aurore
Weapon: Brawny Adargas

The rest is basically just things I scraped together for leveling and haven't really switched out because I can't decide if I want to sell a few MNK things to get better PUP accessories. Will have to see what I do.

Also, thanks a lot for all the answers and help guys, really appreciate it.

Oh, btw what attachments do you guys use for WHM auto?

EDIT: Btw, Is Windbuffet anything for PUP? After thinking about it a little I am assuming for WS in that case?

Edited, Aug 21st 2012 5:16am by Belcrono

Edited, Aug 23rd 2012 7:08am by Belcrono
#9 Aug 24 2012 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
Okay, I will have to work a bit on AF3 +1 then. I don't think I will be able to solo much so will have to work on it with groups, but I don't mind that.

THe items I have is basically a few MNK pieces (really wish we could use more of the items like Brego gloves, but it does seem a lot better now than it used to be when PUPs were apparently mages heh).

Head: Ocelomeh
Body: Juogi
Hands: Aurore
Legs: Aurore
Feet: Aurore
Weapon: Brawny Adargas

The rest is basically just things I scraped together for leveling and haven't really switched out because I can't decide if I want to sell a few MNK things to get better PUP accessories. Will have to see what I do.

Also, thanks a lot for all the answers and help guys, really appreciate it.

Oh, btw what attachments do you guys use for WHM auto?

EDIT: Btw, Is Windbuffet anything for PUP? After thinking about it a little I am assuming for WS in that case?


I've never really been a fan of juogi, tbh, but that has more basis in when it came out and the stats available to us at that time than it holds any water today. That said, as someone else with mnk and pup, a lot of the gear does translate, though not all of it (my pup and mnk share a bit more in common, gear wise, than my mnk and my war, but it's mostly accessories). That aside...

The Ocelomeh headpiece should hold you over until you get cirque +2. How the 1% haste and 12 Dex compare to the 2% double attack is mostly situational based on how much total double attack you have. The Juogi vs Aurore body is a similar case of total crit/DA deciding the matter, but really, aurore's not going to top juogi. ****, once you're properly up to date with gear, Juogi can compete pretty evenly with farsetto+2; each being stronger in different situations. Pink gloves will hold you over until you get pantin dastanas or cirque guanti +1 (ideally you want both +2, because each is stronger than the other in depending on which puppet you're using and what you're fighting). Likewise, Aurore brais will do you fine until you spend a few hours trading sausages to get your cirque legs +1'd (seriously, the trickiest part of pup legs is getting the bastion credits to get the nq in the first place Smiley: laugh).

I'm also curious as to what accessories you're using. To kind of give you an idea, my current TP set (which is mostly from back when +2s weren't very common, with a few newer pieces interspersed, due to me being relatively infrequent in my play since then) and the planned upgrades I'm very slowly working towards:
Head: Cirque Capello +1 (+2)
Neck: Cirque Necklace (Still debating whether I want to get a rancor collar or not, and if I did, whether I'd use it for pup, since most of what I dowith pup is solo play or lowman; also note that if I know I'll be at high haste, I'll use chiv chain instead.)
Ears: Kemas/Brutal (Until I get around to finishing WotG and get the regain earring)
Body: Cirque Farsetto +1 (+2, and eventually maybe Juogi, depending on pricing and math)
Hands: Pantin Dastanas and Cirque Guanti +1 (both +2'd; again, each is useful, pantin for valoredge/sharpshot, cirque for stormwaker or when the pet is not important)
Rings: Rajas and Blood Ring (I'd be better off replacing blood with keen ring, but I've been saved by the resists on the blood ring a few times when I solo, and the difference is rather minuscule. I also forget to pick one up constantly, and I really just like how blood ring looks. Smiley: lol Don't copy me on that, though, I'm a bad influence there)
Back: Vellaunus' Mantle or Pantin Mantle depending (I use pantin for ws, and occasionally if I'm using valoredge. I'm equally wary of Rancor Mantle as I am of the collar, because that DT +10% is a pretty hefty cost to pay when you're the only melee. I'll probably get both eventually, for min-max sake, but I'm not gonna be happy about it. Also keep in mind that much to our ire, pup was excluded from Atheling Mantle. Smiley: glare)
Belt: Cirque Sash (Only improvement is twilight belt; whether or not moepapa would be an improvement would depend on what SE does with valoredge/sharpshot in the future, and if you can cap haste with the 5%, and not need the 6~7% from cirque/twilight)
Legs: Cirque Pantaloni +2 (These are really tough to beat. They're on par with pretty much every other option we have, save Thaumas Kecks, which kind of dance all over everyone's best haste pants, but those aren't exactly easy to get. Euxine +3 are fairly close to cirque, though, and pull ahead at higher haste)
Feet: Aurore Gaiters (because there's really ******* nothing easily attainable that's better to TP in, even cirque scarpe +1, which I have.

As for Windbuffet? Not really since we need a haste belt to cap gear haste. Honestly, just looking at it, windbuffet doesn't seem like it'd be good for any job, due to how basically every job needs a haste belt to cap gear haste. If you can cap gear haste without a belt, maybe, but otherwise...
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#11 Aug 25 2012 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
Wow, the supposed self-proclaimed God of puppetmastery's gear sucks ***. No wonder you think PUP sucks, your gear is abyssal. Next time gear the job properly before you badmouth it. Your crappy performance =/= the performance of every other PUP in the world. Some people actually gear the job, Jinte.

My gear and the fact that I'm not an elite endgamer does not change the fact that my math is right. I have never once claimed to have amazing gear, and I quite often state that I don't play regularly any more, and that I haven't for several years now. I've never been at the top of the line in terms of gear quality, and I never will be. That does not, in any way, change the fact that my math is unshakably correct.

Until you can explain to me how an opinion suddenly outweighs math, which you won't be able to do, I suggest you kindly shut the **** up, and get back to learning your basic times tables.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#13 Aug 25 2012 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Lady Jinte wrote:

My gear and the fact that I'm not an elite endgamer does not change the fact that my math is right. I have never once claimed to have amazing gear, and I quite often state that I don't play regularly any more, and that I haven't for several years now. I've never been at the top of the line in terms of gear quality, and I never will be. That does not, in any way, change the fact that my math is unshakably correct.

Until you can explain to me how an opinion suddenly outweighs math, which you won't be able to do, I suggest you kindly shut the @#%^ up, and get back to learning your basic times tables.


Jinte!! How could you not have known that FFXI GEAR makes you BETTER than other ppl!?

See me. Pup isn't even my main job, but I have Kenkonken(test server) so I'm better than every other pup.
Check out my sweet pup set

I'm way better pup than you!! You should just quit the game now of embarrassment, and don't go outside because there's a giant sign above you wherever you go which says

"I SUCK AT FFXI SO PLEASE KILL ME!"

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#15 Aug 26 2012 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
"Not an elite endgamer" Got it. You're a casual. AKA typical special snowflake PUP with sh*t gear. Your "math" is irrelevant when it's based on your crappy gear and 0 experience with the job in the real world.

You use an HP ring to melee. Your "math" has lost all credibility. Anyone can tout "math" as an excuse for anything but it doesn't prove anything, and I wouldn't trust "math" coming from someone who thinks meleeing with HP gear on PUP is a good idea.

Edited, Aug 25th 2012 11:57pm by Zelduh

HP ring? what? I'm talking about Blood Ring. Further, you don't honestly think I'm stupid enough to use my own not-end-of-the-line gear when I'm talking about high-end scenarios, do you? How the **** would you know, anyway? YOU DON'T READ MY MATH. You've seen that gear-guide I've had stickied for a few years, right? That **** was fine and dandy and up to date when I posted it, real life just got more important. If you seriously think I have "0 experience with the job" that I've been playing, defending, and doing awesome **** with since it was released, you're functionally retarded. If you think the fact that I don't own an automaton in real life to have experience with influences my opinion, you're delusional, you know, since in the real world, we're sitting in chairs, or on couches, pressing buttons.

Zelduh wrote:
If you're a PUP and your gear sucks and you're not actively working on improving it and still touting yourself as the know-it-all god of puppetmastry, yes, you suck at PUP. Why? Because all the "knowledge" of "math" in the world is not going to give you haste, accuracy, attack, strength, etc. etc.
You will still perform subpar, and therefore all your experience will be of PUP performing subpar. This just in: You need good gear to not suck at ____ job! Doesn't make you a bad PLAYER, but your job performance WILL suck with crappy gear. Jinte really doesn't know anything about the job based on his gear choices. PUPs should be aiming to be the best specifically to counter the stigma, so everyone who chooses to be a special snowflake who thinks they're unique with HP gear and still awesome because they're casual and have imaginary math skills, are hurting the PUP community by showing everyone how subpar their PUP is performing compared to any decent damage damage with proper gear.

If Jinte is going to keep bragging how important he is to the PUP community maybe he should make himself more presentable. Cirque+2 is not hard to get. Epona's ring is not hard to get. Twilight Belt is not hard to get. And he's still using pink. Dear god, kill me.
Jinte isn't new to PUP. He should know better. A new player leveling PUP or someone who is starting PUP from scratch as their next job? That's fine. As long as they're working on it and know how to gear properly. But for someone who claims to be the face of the job, it's wrong.

You don't think I bring my pup to events with this gear, do you? I'm not stupid. I have the gear I have because I'm a ************* transsexual who just started college, and decided that putting my time and money towards my school and medical issues, as well as dealing with a myriad of social issues related to my condition, and unrelated to it, was more ******* valuable than controlling a ******* derpbot and punching **** in a fantasy world. I'm sorry. I do value my real life more than this game. I haven't had much in the way of time to devote to bettering my FFXI character since just before heroes was released. ******* sue me. THAT STILL DOES NOT MAKE MY MATH ******* WRONG. Just because you don't happen to know about one obscure T1 ZNM drop that made woodsman/sniper's rings semi-obsolete when it was released doesn't mean I'm ******* stupid enough to use a ******* HP ring in my TP set. Jesus christ, look up this **** on wiki before you spout off your nonsense and make yourself look like a complete dumbass.

If you want to go on a tirade about my gear, fine. Don't you dare insinuate that it makes my math any less wrong, especially after you have, on multiple occasions, blatantly stated that you have no intention of reading it in the first place. I am, and always will be, one hundred times the puppetmaster you could ever hope to be, regardless of what the parse says. You've done absolutely nothing for the puppetmaster community, you've simply piggy backed off the work of those of us who have. The only special snowflake here is YOU. YOU are the one who can't understand how ******* simple the math is, and why it says what it says. YOU are the one who continues to think your opinion is some how magically more important than cold, hard, mathematical fact. If you claim you have a problem with my math, USE ******* MATH AND PROVE ME WRONG.

AND FOR THE LAST ******* TIME,
I.
AM.
A,
*******.
GIRL.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#17 Aug 26 2012 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
Calm down bro, don't have a heart attack on account of your sick obsession with nonexistant math. You have issues. If you don't use PUP for anything you don't have the right to say anything about it. Your math is theoretical, it's not actual. Try using the job for once with proper gear. Whatever your IRL issues are it isn't an excuse to have such horrible gear and 0 knowledge of proper gear or game mechanics and calling yourself a PUP. You're not a PUP.


so now math is theoretical?

what happened to this forums since i last checked in :c
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#18 Aug 26 2012 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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You know, Zelduh... Jinte can be wordy, can be quite egocentric, and certainly has a very strong personality. Her PUP gear happens to be on the low end, too, but IT MAKES SENSE. I'll never condemn those players who has less time, or not many LSmates that can help, or whatever, if they use the gear available to them that makes sense (but seriously, Jinte, a STR ring would be more useful than that, you know this, and the 5-6 STR ones are dirt cheap).

Yet, despite all of that, the math-supported claims she makes ARE TRUE. You don't need to have the most perfect gear to make those claims, heck, you don't even have to play the **** game. The way the game works is mostly known, and with the wide gaps in performance (in zerg fests) between PUP and the heavy hitters, the small nuances not fully known won't change the result at all.

Now, if you want to argue with equipment, here is mine. Before Neo-Nyzul appeared, my PUP gear was almost perfect, barring the weapon, as I have STR Oxyuranis instead of Empy or Mythic. Well, with all of that, and knowing how to play the job, I happened to be as PUP on several VW fights, against Kaggen, Gaunab and Akvan, specifically. And while I did pretty well, according to an external parse (outdamaging SAMs, NINs, some obviously lazy/bad DRKs, etc.), I had to give my 100%, and I was clearly outparsed by the well-geared heavy hitters. And that's on fights that, even if not turtly, were NOT zerg fights at all, as we lacked many buffs etc. So, no, not even with good gear can PUP destroy other DDs, and much less come close in zerged fights.


Finally, mathematics are, by definition, theoretical. Duh!
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#19 Aug 26 2012 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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TaimMeich wrote:
You know, Zelduh... Jinte can be wordy, can be quite egocentric, and certainly has a very strong personality. Her PUP gear happens to be on the low end, too, but IT MAKES SENSE. I'll never condemn those players who has less time, or not many LSmates that can help, or whatever, if they use the gear available to them that makes sense (but seriously, Jinte, a STR ring would be more useful than that, you know this, and the 5-6 STR ones are dirt cheap).

Yet, despite all of that, the math-supported claims she makes ARE TRUE. You don't need to have the most perfect gear to make those claims, heck, you don't even have to play the **** game. The way the game works is mostly known, and with the wide gaps in performance (in zerg fests) between PUP and the heavy hitters, the small nuances not fully known won't change the result at all.

Now, if you want to argue with equipment, here is mine. Before Neo-Nyzul appeared, my PUP gear was almost perfect, barring the weapon, as I have STR Oxyuranis instead of Empy or Mythic. Well, with all of that, and knowing how to play the job, I happened to be as PUP on several VW fights, against Kaggen, Gaunab and Akvan, specifically. And while I did pretty well, according to an external parse (outdamaging SAMs, NINs, some obviously lazy/bad DRKs, etc.), I had to give my 100%, and I was clearly outparsed by the well-geared heavy hitters. And that's on fights that, even if not turtly, were NOT zerg fights at all, as we lacked many buffs etc. So, no, not even with good gear can PUP destroy other DDs, and much less come close in zerged fights.


Finally, mathematics are, by definition, theoretical. Duh!

I hate to be this guy, however...

In the TP set you have on that page, the bruiser earring is essentially useless. The H2H skill is not taking you up a damage tier, unless the equation for H2H damage has changed recently. You'd probably be much better off with an attack earring.

I also think that Cirque +2 may beat the Oce. Headpiece in that gear set, even considering the set effect. Though I'd take that with a grain of salt as I'm much too lazy to do math.

Edited, Aug 26th 2012 4:08pm by Dragonmasterxxxx

Edited, Aug 26th 2012 4:09pm by Dragonmasterxxxx
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#20 Aug 26 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Dragonmasterxxxx wrote:
I hate to be this guy, however...

In that TP set you have on that page, the bruiser earring is essentially useless. The H2H skill is not taking you up a damage tier, unless the equation for H2H damage has changed recently. You'd probably be much better off with an attack earring.


You are totally right. I don't know when I realized that, but I used that set for a long time before switching back to Kemas. I didn't update the ffxiah set, but I'm pretty sure I was using that for a long time anyway, so the criticism is spot on.

Quote:
I also think that Cirque +2 may beat the Oce. Headpiece in that gear set, even considering the set effect. Though I'd take that with a grain of salt as I'm much too lazy to do math.


Nah, in this case, the Toci's + Ocelomeh +1 outparses and "outmaths" (using Motenten's spreadsheet) Cirque +2. What's more surprising, even NQ Ocelomeh head + Toci's is better, with 24% uncapped haste.

Edited, Aug 27th 2012 12:03am by TaimMeich
____________________________
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SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
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#21 Aug 26 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
Calm down bro, don't have a heart attack on account of your sick obsession with nonexistant math. You have issues. If you don't use PUP for anything you don't have the right to say anything about it. Your math is theoretical, it's not actual. Try using the job for once with proper gear. Whatever your IRL issues are it isn't an excuse to have such horrible gear and 0 knowledge of proper gear or game mechanics and calling yourself a PUP. You're not a PUP.

I'm pretty sure not playing is an acceptable excuse for not having up-to-date gear. Kind of hard to update your gear when you're account isn't even activated. Further, it doesn't matter whether my math is theoretical or actual, because it uses the same exact mathematical equations that the game uses, in the same exact way. The only difference is that mine's posted in a forum, not showing in your chat log. I also love that you didn't even own up to the mistake about the ring.

If you seriously think I know nothing about proper gear or game mechanics, then you're one of the most unintelligent people I've ever had the displeasure of crossing words with. Otherwise, just need to stop trolling, because it was never good quality trolling anyway, and now it's just pathetic and distracting, like a mosquito bite.

KaynofTitan wrote:
so now math is theoretical?

what happened to this forums since i last checked in :c

We got an infusion of ******** from somewhere.

TaimMeich wrote:
You know, Zelduh... Jinte can be wordy, can be quite egocentric, and certainly has a very strong personality. Her PUP gear happens to be on the low end, too, but IT MAKES SENSE. I'll never condemn those players who has less time, or not many LSmates that can help, or whatever, if they use the gear available to them that makes sense (but seriously, Jinte, a STR ring would be more useful than that, you know this, and the 5-6 STR ones are dirt cheap).
Better than an HP ring, sure, but I'm not using lolbloodbeadring. The difference between 5 acc and 5 STR is fairly wash for most of the stuff I use pup for, and the extra resists have come in handy from time to time. Besides, the correct answer is Epona, which I'm working on. Smiley: lol

Dragonmasterxxxx wrote:
I hate to be this guy, however...

In the TP set you have on that page, the bruiser earring is essentially useless. The H2H skill is not taking you up a damage tier, unless the equation for H2H damage has changed recently. You'd probably be much better off with an attack earring.

I also think that Cirque +2 may beat the Oce. Headpiece in that gear set, even considering the set effect. Though I'd take that with a grain of salt as I'm much too lazy to do math.

Oce+1 + Toci's:
STR+13 DEX+26 Haste+7%
Accuracy+10 (+23) Attack+10 (+16~17)
Double Attack+3% Triple Attack+3%

Cirque Head/Body+2:
DEX+10 Haste+9% Hand-to-Hand skill +5
Accuracy+20 (+29) Attack+20 (+25)
Double Attack +3%
Set Proc Rate +2% (total: 3~4%) (I can't remember the exact pattern it follows)

With the rest of the set taken into account, the biggest part is that with cirque head/body, you still can't give up haste boots for something better (like cirque boots) because that would leave you at 24% haste. Any pair of 2% haste boots (of which we have a thousand) would obviously hit hard cap, unlike oce/toci's, which only hits the soft cap. However, that haste rounding and boot tidbit aside, with these four pieces, it basically comes down to this:

STR+13 DEX+16 Triple Attack+3% vs Atk+8~9 Acc+6, and the slightly increased set proc, since at 99 with 8 merits, the 5 skill from the head alone won't push you up a damage tier (However, bruiser's and capello together actually would). Without any question,Oce+1/Toci's wins, compared to double cirque, because the set proc is so low either way that it can't negate the boost of the STR/DEX/TA. Even if the h2h skill boosted you up a tier, the 13 str is effectively 2-3 fSTR, which would drown out the dmg+1. Thus, it basically comes down to the Cirque letting you wear slightly stronger boots, and which boots would be needed to overcome the difference.

So, bringing the boots back in,
Athos are DEX+10 Acc+5 (+10) Haste+3%, and of the options to replace them without losing capped haste, you have:
Mustela boots, Savateur's Gaiters, and Usukane Sune-Ate (none of the others have any chance of topping athos, realistically), so:
Mustela:
STR+6 DEX+6 Haste+2%
Savateur's: Acc+8 Kick Attacks +3% Haste+2%
Usukane: Acc+7 Atk+7 Store TP+7 Haste+2% (TP/hit 5.8 -> 6.1, which does shave 1 hit off of the amount needed to reach 100% TP)

Mustela negates some of the str (13-6 = 7 str lost) and some of the dex (16+10 = 26-6 = 20 dex lost, still increasing the total net loss), , but also costs acc, switching the advantage of acc to Oce/toci (6-10 = -4 +3 = -1, meaining oce/toci now have +1 acc), So mustela won't cut it.

Savateur's increases the difference in acc to 14, and partially negates the loss of the triple attack (KA is only 1/4 as effective as TA, because it is, at most, one extra hit per round, while TA can reach up to 4 extra hits, because it can proc on each punch individually). Combined with the extra set proc it might negate the loss of damage from TA, but the huge difference in STR/DEX would still have oce/toci's pulling ahead.

Thus, we've got usukane. It ups the atk/acc differences to be more competitive at 15~16 and 13 respectively, and also shaves off a hit to 100% TP. In the other two cases, the difference that going from the soft to hard gear haste caps (ie: that extra 1% to account for rounding) isn't enough to sway anything, but here, combined with the store TP, I would wager that it basically puts the two on par with one another, with oce/toci/athos pulling ahead against higher defense stuff where the str/dex are more valuable towards increasing your fSTR and dDEX, while cirque/usukane would pull ahead on lower defense stuff where the str/dex are less valuable due to lower VIT/AGI to deal with. Either way, that's probably a wash.

Honestly, the difference between either set up, regardless of which boots you use, is fairly minuscule. I couldn't give an exact difference in damage without a specified target, though.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#22 Aug 26 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
KaynofTitan wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
Calm down bro, don't have a heart attack on account of your sick obsession with nonexistant math. You have issues. If you don't use PUP for anything you don't have the right to say anything about it. Your math is theoretical, it's not actual. Try using the job for once with proper gear. Whatever your IRL issues are it isn't an excuse to have such horrible gear and 0 knowledge of proper gear or game mechanics and calling yourself a PUP. You're not a PUP.


so now math is theoretical?

what happened to this forums since i last checked in :c


Zelduh has been kind of trashing pup rep by making wild claims without any way of backing it up. Cementing the stereo-type. Jinte made it her personal mission to prove s/he with cold hard facts. You know that pesky theoretical math gets in Zelduh way. So Zelduh lashes out at Jinte any shape way or form s/he gets.

Anywho, a seldom look at option is dance shoes from ANNM. Not much better then aurore but you can get pet bonus stats.*shrug*
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#23 Aug 26 2012 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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TP feet options for PUP are really crappy. I was really lucky to get Athos in my first Lancing Lamorak set, otherwise I could still be wearing pink feet (thay're not that bad, actually, other than the uglyness), or either using or saving for a pair of Savateur.

And Jinte, what kind of content do you do to need the 5 acc for the ring? PUP has auto capped acc on mostly everything except endgame mobs, bur 5 extra STR is 1 more damage and some extra att, and that's useful even against Dynamis EP. Of course Epona is the superior option, but in the mean time a STR ring (even a cheap and multipurpose one like Spiral) should be much better. Well, "much better" in the sense that it will do something, there's nothing you will able to do with it that you couldn't without, of course.
____________________________
Frejan - Ragnarok
SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
Windurst Rank 10, ZM+CoP: The Last Verse, ToAU: Eternal Mercenary, WotG Champion of the Dawn.
#24 Aug 26 2012 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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TaimMeich wrote:
TP feet options for PUP are really crappy. I was really lucky to get Athos in my first Lancing Lamorak set, otherwise I could still be wearing pink feet (thay're not that bad, actually, other than the uglyness), or either using or saving for a pair of Savateur.

And Jinte, what kind of content do you do to need the 5 acc for the ring? PUP has auto capped acc on mostly everything except endgame mobs, bur 5 extra STR is 1 more damage and some extra att, and that's useful even against Dynamis EP. Of course Epona is the superior option, but in the mean time a STR ring (even a cheap and multipurpose one like Spiral) should be much better. Well, "much better" in the sense that it will do something, there's nothing you will able to do with it that you couldn't without, of course.

Mostly soloing NMs and ****. And also, like I said, part of it is just how cool the ring looks despite not being terrible (invoking the law of ugliness here: the better the stats, the worse the item looks). Smiley: laugh

Besides, 5 STR giving 1 fSTR for 1 DMG isn't exactly something you can notice without a long term parse, and even then, isn't very obvious, so I've got other, far more obvious things to prioritize before getting a STR ring. That, and I'm still old fashioned enough that TPing in a STR ring feels ******* dirty, otherwise I'd TP in my spiral ring and hate myself.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#26 Aug 26 2012 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you for all that hard work, Jinte. Though I'll be honest, I started skimming quickly after coming to the realization that I was pretty **** wrong. XP


I'll completely accept that my assumption on that was wrong though, and that is not only because of my miss thinking that the head would push us up a damage tier but also because I did not exactly mean replacing Toci's with the +2 body, only the head.

A very informative post, though. If I somehow find reason to come back I shall keep it in mind. However, at this point I'll admit I've lost interest as most of my goals seem much further away and I can't even find joy in the gearing of my favorite job anymore. The latter of which can be seen quite well if you look at my gear on FFXIAH.

Huh, this posts seems somewhat useless now that I read over it... ^.^; Heh.

Edit: Zelduh, just shut up already. You're causing more trouble for the PUP community than anything else and that's easily apparent just from my small amount of lurking.

Edited, Aug 26th 2012 8:03pm by Dragonmasterxxxx
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#27 Aug 27 2012 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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Dammit, vlor, stop nuking posts before I get a chance to even read them.
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LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#29 Aug 27 2012 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
Lady Jinte wrote:
Dammit, vlor, stop nuking posts before I get a chance to even read them.


It's not worth your time or frustration. It's just straight trolling, not even trying to mask it anymore. anyone who can muster a single IQ can see what s/he's doing. So let's ignore it and maybe it will go away.

So how about them Aurochs?
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#30 Aug 28 2012 at 3:14 AM Rating: Good
I have been alternatively working at building my DRK an EG weapon or laying into idiots all over the net taking up for Bethesda in their epic fail in releasing Dawnguard to the PS3; so i haven't been actively checking various PUP forums lately either. Wanted to weigh in on the bold question below however


KaynofTitan wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
Calm down bro, don't have a heart attack on account of your sick obsession with nonexistant math. You have issues. If you don't use PUP for anything you don't have the right to say anything about it. Your math is theoretical, it's not actual. Try using the job for once with proper gear. Whatever your IRL issues are it isn't an excuse to have such horrible gear and 0 knowledge of proper gear or game mechanics and calling yourself a PUP. You're not a PUP.


so now math is theoretical?

what happened to this forums since i last checked in :c



From what i'm seeing, and not just here from Zelduh, there are lots of ppl lvling PUP atm. Plenty of these new ladies and gents seem to be in that special place that only inhabited by those that are really new to something.

You know the type. Like say a freshman in college that is just discovering beer, or chicks, or that they can stay up all night now 'cause Mama ain't breathing down their neck to hit the sack at 10 o' clock any more. And they lose their ******* minds. Suddenly they are an expert on EVERYTHING and you can't tell them a **** thing. Even though they have only been in it a hot minute, they are suddenly God's gift of supreme awesomeness to the rest of us smoes.

Only thing for it is to buckle in and let them burn themselves out really. Do like Jinte, throw out some knowledge and let those that can recognize it for truth soak it up. And let the rest show us their divine brilliance....until reality hits them squa' in the mug and proceeds to grind special out of them.

At least that's my take on it. Gonna go finish this bottle i shoulda put down hours ago now and get a full nights sleep in 45 min.

Then time to face the day!

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Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#32 Aug 28 2012 at 4:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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PUP is a good damage dealer. But it is not good in the party/alliance situations that demand for the highest DD you can achieve. Those situations involve super-buffing, and, as explained before, the automation contribution is greatly dilluted because it isn't affected by those buffs. In colibri parties, even with a BRD handing marches and a RDM hasting, the automaton contribution was still very relevant, because those were, after all, T-VT mobs, not NMs 20 levels above you. But when yor automaton loses 5 regain, around 40% haste, lots of attack and/or accuracy, total invulnerability, and all the good stuff coming from a SCH/BRD/SMN, the PUP starts lagging behind spectacularly.

Throughout my entire leveling PUP career, in traditional (but level synced) parties, I outparsed everyone 90% of the time, because sharpshot was THAT good, provided a sensible use of attachments (and the master contributing himself, of course). But if you are against an NM that your automaton has a hard time hitting, and not only that, but kills it in 1-2 AoEs, keeping up on the damage as PUP is not possible.

PUP, right now, excels in lowman groups that can't afford many buffs. In those cases, a good PUP can destroy performance-wise the heavy DDs that require a WHM or a SCH babysitting them. Unfortunately, that kind of content is usually easy enough that being the best at it doesn't matter much.
____________________________
Frejan - Ragnarok
SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
Windurst Rank 10, ZM+CoP: The Last Verse, ToAU: Eternal Mercenary, WotG Champion of the Dawn.
#34 Aug 29 2012 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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MNK has Focus (Believe it or not, acc can be an issue on high- end NMs again), and more important, has Impetus. It's easy to underestimate it, but the bonuses it provides to attack, acc and crit makes it just too good. On top of that there's the higher base attack, the better DD equipment options, and kick attacks, but Impetus takes most of the credit.
____________________________
Frejan - Ragnarok
SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
Windurst Rank 10, ZM+CoP: The Last Verse, ToAU: Eternal Mercenary, WotG Champion of the Dawn.
#35 Aug 29 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
A competent PUP can easily outparse a MNK in ANY "zerg" situation where everyone is buffed up the ***. If you consider MNK a passable damage dealer, than so is PUP. Will a fully decked-out DRK or WAR win the parse if they're giving it 100%? Sure. But that doesn't mean the PUP was being useless as all you claim for doing slightly less damage in extremely optimal conditions for the other damage dealers. It's still a good damage dealer EVEN IN HIGH-BUFF SITUATIONS. And with Kenkonken, it could easily win against any job on anything.

And here, sadly, is proof that you simply don't read my posts. Ignoring the fact that high buff situations and extremely optimal conditions are pretty much the only endgame events in the game right now (VW, Legion, NNI), you also simply don't understand the limitations of the puppet, and the incredible advantages mnk has over pup in terms of damage output. The two jobs pup can't keep up with if they put any amount of effort in are mnk and war, and that's due to the fact that the heavy DD jobs like drk, drg, sam, and rng, who focus purely on dealing damage and can do almost nothing else 95% of the time (like mnk and war) can't always keep up with them.

Consider this:
Pup's offensive tools:
Tactical Switch: Which allows you one slightly better ws every few minutes because you can take TP from your puppet and use it for your own ws instead
Valoredge (360 base delay)
Sharpshot (400 Melee Delay, 12-20 seconds between ranged attacks)

Monk's offensive tools:
Boost (though it's not used at high haste, for the same reason maneuvers @#%^ us over)
Counter (If/when they pull hate) (Base 12% +5% from merits)
Focus
Counterstance (If feasible)
Kick Attacks (base 15% +5% from merits and more from TP gear)
lolfootwork (Basically a free high TP return WS every 5 minutes, also not often used)
Perfect Counter
Impetus
2 more tiers of Martial Arts (-40 delay; though this is reduced to 1~1.5 depending on gear, and ignoring kenkonken because everyone freely admits that kenkonken pups are something entirely different)
Higher Base STR, Base VIT, H2H skill (meaning higher atk, acc, and Base Dmg) relative to pup
Much better gear selection

However, even ignoring the significant edge counter grants whenever the mnk pulls hate; and gearing the mnk and pup as similarly as possible, including the same exact buffs, the outcome is easily shown. In fact, I'm not even going to do the math myself, I'll use the spreadsheets. Even you can't deny their accuracy.

Adjusting the gearsets slightly (will be shown in spoilers, and I'll simply be using the ones that give the highest results), let's try vs Pil
Buffs: Embrava (500skill), Haste, XI chaos and tactician rolls (with appropriate boosts), 25% def down on Pil (Relic+2 augmented angon), Red Curry Buns for both, Assuming capped STR/DEX/Crit/H2H/Shijin Merits. Both are /war, hume, and intelligent:
Mnk TP:
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Thew Bomblet 
Head	Tantra +2 
Neck	Rancor Max 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Moonshade AttRg 
Body	Tantra +2 (When impetus is up) 
		Thaumas (When impetus is down) 
Hands	Tenryu +1 Aug 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Atheling 
Waist	Black 
Legs		Tantra +2 
Feet		Tantra +2

Mnk WS (Shijin Spiral):
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Demonry 
Head	Ocelomeh +1 
Neck	Gorget 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Jupiter Pearl 
Body	Khepri Aug 
Hands	Athos 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Atheling 
Waist	Wanion 
Legs		Khepri Aug 
Feet		Thaumas


Pup TP:
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Range	Animator +1 
Head	Tenryu +1 Aug 
Neck	Rancor Max 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Moonshade AccRg (it's rather annoying, AccRegain is better for pup, AtkRegain for mnk, but Atk Regain is better for pup than AccRegain is for mnk) 
Body	Thaumas 
Hands	Tenryu +1 Aug 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Pantin (Atheling Mantle, y u so haet pup? Smiley: cry) 
Waist	Twilight 
Legs		Thaumas 
Feet		Cirque +2

Pup WS (Shijin Spiral):
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Animator +1 
Head	Ocelomeh +1 
Neck	Gorget 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Ghillie +1 
Body	Toci's 
Hands	Athos 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Pantin 
Waist	Ele.Belt 
Legs		Tenryu +1 Aug 
Feet		Cirque +2

Pup WS (Stringing Pummel):
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Animator +1 
Head	Ocelomeh +1 
Neck	Rancor Max 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Kemas 
Body	Toci's 
Hands	Athos 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Pantin 
Waist	Ele.Belt 
Legs		Tenryu +1 Aug 
Feet		Cirque +2 


Mnk Results:
Average:
- 92.25% hit rate
- 21.5% crit rate
- 406.165 dps

Pup Results:
Shijin Spiral:
Average:
- 89% hit rate
- 17% crit rate
- 359.975 dps (No Maneuvers)
- 327.250 dps (1 Maneuver/20 sec)
Stringing Pummel:
- 89% hit rate
- 17% crit rate
- 355.251 dps (No Maneuvers; note that higher def mobs like pil favor shijin over pummel)
- 322.955 dps (1 Maneuver/20 Sec)


Based on this, let's use shijin's results:
Difference between Mnk and Pup:
Hit Rate: 3.25% in favor of Mnk
Crit Rate: 4.5% in favor of Mnk
Average DPS: 46.19 in favor of Mnk (If not using maneuvers)
Average DPS: 83.21 in favor of Mnk (If using maneuvers at 1/20sec)

And remember, this is damage per second. If we spread this average out over 5 Minutes of fighting and you get this:
Mnk: 121849.5 damage
Pup: 107992.5 (No Maneuvers)
Pup: 98175 (1 maneuver/20 sec)

This makes the difference even clearer, with mnk ahead of No Maneuvers Pup by 13857 damage, and Maneuvers Pup by 23674.5 damage, and No Maneuvers Pup ahead of Maneuvers Pup by 9817.5 damage. Using Maneuvers cost you an average of just under 2k damage per minute. Losing 10k damage is pretty harsh, and while the strongest attachment set up might push the puppet's damage up to make up that deficit, the 14-23.5k damage difference between pup and mnk isn't going to happen. Ever. And this doesn't even account for counter, which will further increase monk's DPS every time they pull hate long enough to get swung at.

Edited, Aug 29th 2012 7:14pm by Jinte
____________________________
Theytak, Siren Server
LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#37 Aug 30 2012 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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480 posts
Prove your point. Parses, calculations on spreadsheets or whatever, playing alongside someone who disagree with you and having his/her testimonial... Just prove it in some manner, or be silent forever.
____________________________
Frejan - Ragnarok
SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
Windurst Rank 10, ZM+CoP: The Last Verse, ToAU: Eternal Mercenary, WotG Champion of the Dawn.
#38 Aug 30 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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719 posts
Lady Jinte wrote:
Using Maneuvers cost you an average of just under 2k damage per minute. Losing 10k damage is pretty harsh, and while the strongest attachment set up might push the puppet's damage up to make up that deficit, the 14-23.5k damage difference between pup and mnk isn't going to happen. Ever. And this doesn't even account for counter, which will further increase monk's DPS every time they pull hate long enough to get swung at.



Just curious, but were all those calculations just comparing MNK to the PUP itself, without the puppet?

As a job that's 60-70% master, 30-40% pet, that could (very) roughly put PUP dmg totals at 461.364 - 599.958 dps?

I'm sure that in the ideal situation you described, the master is getting a ton of buffs that aren't applying to the puppet, so the balance is going to be skewed far more towards the master than that. And yes, that is just a semi-meaningless percentage calculation with no real data behind it other than playing with the numbers you provided.

But.

Including some calculations that include the puppet would be a more accurate comparison, and would be less easily refuted. Your "might" is a pretty significant gap that you just kind of gloss over in your otherwise flawless argument.

Perhaps even a calculated comparison like this would be helpful in indicating to SE if some sort of adjustment needs to be made? *cough*A2-hourThatLetsUsShareBuffsWithPuppetInsteadOfWeakCopiesOfOtherJobs*cough*
#39 Aug 30 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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54 posts
The reason we compare PUP to MNK in this situation without including the Automaton is mainly because it's a situation containing near constant AoEs. This means that in most cases, the Automaton is dead nearly 80-90% of the time. In other words, their damage is much smaller than it normally would be. This means that instead of the normal 70/30 (or 60/40) spread we have on damage, it turns more into 90/10 (perhaps even 95/5) simply because we cannot keep the Automaton alive long enough due to the large amount of damage being outputted by the mob and the low amount of survivability the Automaton themselves have.

Now, some might say that this is negated by the fact we can summon the Automaton, via Deus Ex, every minute. However this adds more problems,
1) More ability delay which will cause the master to lose out on damage.
2) The Automaton is summoned at such a low % of HP that it is very likely within a few seconds of the ability being used, it is going to die again.

If this is wrong I'm sure someone with more experience will come out to correct me but this seems the most likely reasoning.
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Character: Spathaian
Server: Shiva
Main: Puppetmaster
#40 Aug 31 2012 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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@Jinte: Why are you still responding to anything Zelduh says about pup!? You proved solidly he has no credibility. Responding to him further implies he has any credibility.

CireXF seems to be playing devil's advocate...

There are no solid calculations players have right now for pet damage mechanics.
Jinte has done a good amount of work on automatons.
I've done a bit on bst pets.
Kegsay did it for Avatars at 75, but that's outdated now.
and I'm not sure, but I don't think anyone has cared enough to test wyvern....

I can say for bst (and pup and bst have similiary ratios of Master:Pet DD) that in unbuffed situations the pet jobs are going to kick the trash out of the non pet jobs. I had great fun outparsing my 99 UKON war friend on DC dynamis mobs on bst a few weeks ago.

The thing is, if you go from unbuffed, to fully buffed, the individual damage is going to go to pretty much go 5x the damage for main only.

The pet just doesn't make up that difference. pet would need to do ~5x the difference between a mnk's damage and pup's damage in unbuffed situations. Which means your pet would be doing more like 80% of the damage in unbuffed situations to make up the difference when you get buffed up.

I'm not using hard numbers, but I hope I kept it a simple comparison for all those who don't want to crunch each number.
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Choh Moui | Rongo-Nango | Lhu Mhakaracca | Lungo-Nango | Nyumomo
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#41 Aug 31 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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719 posts
Yeah, mostly playing DA, but actually curious as to how far behind we actually are. Jinte's player dmg calculations are fantastic, but neither side of the argument has any parses or calculations at the moment to show just how effective or ineffective the puppet would be in these fights. It just seems a total no-brainer that MNK>Master. PUP haters have been making that fallacy of a comparison ever since the job was released.

Dragonmaster's explanation that the puppet just can't survive long enough to deal much damage makes total sense. I've never done VW or Legion, or any other endgame zerg-style events, so I didn't realize the conditions of those fights (and holy cow, with that much dmg, how do zerg players survive, and why in god's name is SE designing fights that require dmg immunity? /endtangent), but I hope I'm making it clear that I'm not claiming to KNOW anything, but rather asking for clarification so that I understand better, and maybe other PUPs might have similar questions and be able to find answers as well.

So, from my admittedly limited perspective, Jinte made it sound as though Puppet dmg would count for something in such a fight, but didn't really provide any examples of why she was discounting its dmg contributions.

Again, not based on any hard data or calculations, but it doesn't seem implausible to me at all that a Sharpshot would be able to deal a WS every minute, right? And Armor Shatterer is generally 2500+ dmg (+def down on the mob. Does that stack with other forms of defense down I'm assuming have already been applied?).

Shooting at every 20 sec, gives you 3 Ranged Attacks (300 dmg each sound reasonable?) which will probably give at least 900-ish dmg.

Maybe 8-ish melee strikes with 400 delay and no haste, so close to 1000 dmg if all melee hits connect?

That's 4400-ish per minute from the puppet, and stretched out over 5 minutes, is 22,000 damage (pretty close to the 23.5k difference that Jinte said the puppet would never be able to make up).

Again, my assumptions could be totally off b/c I really don't have a clue about the def, evasion, resistances of the zerged mobs in question (though I'm still guessing that it would be reduced as much as possible for the zerging melees). I'm just saying that as a super casual, yet still enthusiastic PUP player, I'd like to know if my guess work has any foundation in reality so I can better understand this job I love :)

*edited for math I failed at*

Edited, Aug 31st 2012 5:40pm by CireXF
#43 Sep 01 2012 at 5:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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480 posts
Yo DO realize that nothing in that rambling can be considered a proof, right? No parses, nor calculations of some sort. Just "Use Schurzen!". Well, I'll tell you something: first, Schurzen only works on physical attacks. Second, it only works once, and leaves the automaton at 1 HP. Even if you apply an oil instantly, it's not going to regain full HP, and it's going to die to the next AoE.

Finally, yes, I think Qilin is a pretty good candidate for PUP to use a DD automaton. Well, it can breakga, paralyga IIRC, and a bunch of annoying stuff AoE, but if the master has Fools up you can heal the automaton fast. Stonega IV shouldn't be that dangerous, so, yeah, that's one PUP can try to tackle (and will probably do alright). But even in this case, pretty favorable to PUP, we're dealing with several AoE annoyances. Other cases, which, by the way, are exactly the ones we were talking about, the ones of "zerg or die" are great automaton cementery generators.

Edit: Grammar.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2012 6:58pm by TaimMeich
____________________________
Frejan - Ragnarok
SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
Windurst Rank 10, ZM+CoP: The Last Verse, ToAU: Eternal Mercenary, WotG Champion of the Dawn.
#45 Sep 01 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
is Happy on Friday!
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12,443 posts
Zelduh wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but you're incredibly wrong. You're wildy overestimating the tiny "advantage" MNK has over PUP.

No, you're vastly underestimating it.
CireXF wrote:
Just curious, but were all those calculations just comparing MNK to the PUP itself, without the puppet?

As a job that's 60-70% master, 30-40% pet, that could (very) roughly put PUP dmg totals at 461.364 - 599.958 dps?

I'm sure that in the ideal situation you described, the master is getting a ton of buffs that aren't applying to the puppet, so the balance is going to be skewed far more towards the master than that. And yes, that is just a semi-meaningless percentage calculation with no real data behind it other than playing with the numbers you provided.

But.

Including some calculations that include the puppet would be a more accurate comparison, and would be less easily refuted. Your "might" is a pretty significant gap that you just kind of gloss over in your otherwise flawless argument.


There are several reasons I left out the pet's damage, two of which have already been brought up. The heavy AoE in theses situations makes it hard to keep the puppet alive, yes, but primarily, it's what xilk said; most of the pet damage equations are still unknown. We don't know exactly how pet pDIF, cRatio, fSTR, Weapon Rank, and Level Correction are handled. ****, we don't even know if attack, accuracy, defense, and evasion are calculated the same way. This makes it very difficult to give accurate math. My post was based purely on kinematics' spreadsheets, which can't currently account for pet damage, and I didn't want to include pure speculation. While the values for player stats are known, all we know for certain for the pet values is this:
- Automaton ranged attack pDIF caps at 3.0 like player ranged attack pDIF
- Neither Pet Melee nor Pet Ranged fSTR does not follow the same pattern as either fSTR (melee weapons) or fSTR2 (ranged weapons), but we cannot be certain that they follow the same pattern (ie: fSTR3 applied for all pet damage) or different patterns (fSTR3 for pet melee, fSTR4 for pet ranged)
--- Pet Ranged fSTR caps at a dSTR of 101 (102 str vs a target with 1 vit) which is ludicrously high, and pet melee attacks seem to follow this pattern as well (as evidenced by the avatar fSTR testing)
- Pet Ranged attacks do not work like player ranged attacks at all, and function somewhat like weaponskills or damaging job abilities. This is evidenced by the fact that they cannot crit, and have a very significant dex mod. Whether they're a ws or a JA depends on whether or not the dex mod is subject to an alpha value, which I've yet to determine
- Pets are subject to some sort of level correction adjustment that is very different from what players deal with (evidenced by how strong valoredge was vs kirin at 75 cap), but what that specific difference is we can't say for certain (My theories are either that pet pDIF floors at 1.0 like monster pDIF, or pet fSTR doesn't go into the negatives like player fSTR can (ie: oxyuranis has an fSTR range of -4 to 12, meaning that it can add up to 12 weapon damage but if your target has at least 20 vit more than you have str, it will reduce your weapon damage by 4 instead)
- I'm not even certain whether pet's melee attacks count as 1H or 2H attacks (ie: how they convert str/dex to atk/acc), because the more I play with valoredge to test this stuff, the more my gut is telling me that little clipper is getting counted as a 2h weapon.

Xilk wrote:
@Jinte: Why are you still responding to anything Zelduh says about pup!? You proved solidly he has no credibility. Responding to him further implies he has any credibility.

Mostly because it entertains me, and I love the melodrama Smiley: lol

CireXF wrote:
Yeah, mostly playing DA, but actually curious as to how far behind we actually are. Jinte's player dmg calculations are fantastic, but neither side of the argument has any parses or calculations at the moment to show just how effective or ineffective the puppet would be in these fights. It just seems a total no-brainer that MNK>Master. PUP haters have been making that fallacy of a comparison ever since the job was released.

Dragonmaster's explanation that the puppet just can't survive long enough to deal much damage makes total sense. I've never done VW or Legion, or any other endgame zerg-style events, so I didn't realize the conditions of those fights (and holy cow, with that much dmg, how do zerg players survive, and why in god's name is SE designing fights that require dmg immunity? /endtangent), but I hope I'm making it clear that I'm not claiming to KNOW anything, but rather asking for clarification so that I understand better, and maybe other PUPs might have similar questions and be able to find answers as well.

So, from my admittedly limited perspective, Jinte made it sound as though Puppet dmg would count for something in such a fight, but didn't really provide any examples of why she was discounting its dmg contributions.

Again, not based on any hard data or calculations, but it doesn't seem implausible to me at all that a Sharpshot would be able to deal a WS every minute, right? And Armor Shatterer is generally 2500+ dmg (+def down on the mob. Does that stack with other forms of defense down I'm assuming have already been applied?).

Shooting at every 20 sec, gives you 3 Ranged Attacks (300 dmg each sound reasonable?) which will probably give at least 900-ish dmg.

Maybe 8-ish melee strikes with 400 delay and no haste, so close to 1000 dmg if all melee hits connect?

That's 4400-ish per minute from the puppet, and stretched out over 5 minutes, is 22,000 damage (pretty close to the 23.5k difference that Jinte said the puppet would never be able to make up).

Again, my assumptions could be totally off b/c I really don't have a clue about the def, evasion, resistances of the zerged mobs in question (though I'm still guessing that it would be reduced as much as possible for the zerging melees). I'm just saying that as a super casual, yet still enthusiastic PUP player, I'd like to know if my guess work has any foundation in reality so I can better understand this job I love :)


If you assume no maneuvers (and thus no drum magazine) but with turbo charger, then with 10.2 TP/melee hit and 9.3 per ranged attack, you'll have melee attacks every 6.5 seconds, and ranged attacks every 20 seconds. The puppet can't melee between starting the shooting animation and the attack landing, but as soon as the attack actually lands (even before it shows up in the chat log) it can attack, but I'm fairly sure there's at least a 1 second delay, if not a full 2 second JA delay. This means that you'll get 2 melee swings in for each ranged shot, and a rare third depending on timing (you're not going to get 3 every time without more haste), so that's 3 ranged attacks and 6 melee attacks per minute, or 89.1 TP. Additionally, the puppet almost never weaponskills at 100%, and usually ends up holding it to anywhere from 120% to 150% on average, which means you're likely getting 1 ws every 2 or 3 minutes, rather than 1 every minute. This is kind of why turbo charger and drum magazine are so important for sharpshot's damage. Even if you add in an extra hit for random luck, that's still 99.3 TP/minute, and that's not even accounting for accuracy.

Sharpshot's going to have a base ranged acc of 444 and a base melee acc of 417 (both assuming that acc is calculated like player acc, because acc seems to be fairly universal), both before attachments; with no maneuvers, Scope adds +10 r.acc, and Stab II adds +10 acc, so 454 and 427. The enemy used for the pup/mnk comparison had 485 eva, and was at level 106. This would give a raw hit rate of 45.5% for ranged attacks, and 27% for melee attacks, but since we don't know exactly how target marker works, I can't really account for it. The current theory I know of was ignoring 15% evasion per maneuver, but we know it works without maneuvers, and I haven't seen the testing for those numbers to know how accurate they are. If they are the case, then it would reduce Qilin's evasion to 412 effectively (if 15% with no maneuvers), which would give 82% ranged hit rate and 63.5% melee hit rate, which honestly sounds about right.

Without TM, you're talking 1 in 2 ranged attacks landing and 3 in 10 melee attacks; so over 5 minutes, 6~7 of 15 ranged attacks and 8 of 30 Melee attacks. I shouldn't need to show you the TP return for how abysmal that is to be clear. With the theoretical TM, 12 of 15 ranged attacks, and 19 of 13 melee attacks, or 305.4 TP, and given how the puppet holds TP like crazy, that's 2 WS. Now, This is further exacerbated by the fact that Qilin has 120 vit, and there's no feasible way for sharpshot's 92 STR to even equal that (3x FM with AF gloves bonus and cirque gloves +2 gives a total of +37 str, or 129), let alone pass it, so sharpshot's dSTR is going to be utterly miserable.

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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#47 Sep 01 2012 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
is Happy on Friday!
*****
12,443 posts
Zelduh wrote:
If you use tactical processor


Screenshot
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Theytak, Siren Server
LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#48 Sep 01 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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480 posts
Lady Jinte wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
If you use tactical processor


Screenshot


That's probably the only and best reply anyone could give to that statement.
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Frejan - Ragnarok
SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
Windurst Rank 10, ZM+CoP: The Last Verse, ToAU: Eternal Mercenary, WotG Champion of the Dawn.
#51 Sep 02 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
I will say a few things that come to mind Zelduh. Your point is that Jinte's math is purely hypothetical and not necessarily accurate because your "experiences" in the field as you put it differ from what her math indicates, and you use a world is flat/round analogy to depict this. I have to say that, if anything, I believe your analogy is backwards. Jinte makes several points given information and formulas painstakingly developed, tested, and proven by several other individuals establishing just how significant the difference between Monk and Puppetmaster would be in a standard situation, and your responses to it give no empirical information to back up your point, just your own personal experiences. Jinte better fits of a scientist attempting to prove that the world is round using data gathered, and you're the individual trying to prove that it's flat because you claimed to have reached the edge but aren't giving any proof that you ever did (not using this analogy to say I think you're wrong necessarily, just using it as an example).

Part of the scientific method to support a hypothesis involves tangible testing and being able to produce results that can be analyzed and, in turn, be tested by others. While Jinte is sitting pretty much on the prediction step of the method, you yourself have already jumped to the analysis step without showing any of your own evidence to support your claims. One of the reasons that your arguments are coming under such criticism is that, while you're fervently arguing one point, you're not actually giving any empirical data to support it. If you gave us clear, tangible information that could be analyzed and tested by others, it'd be one thing, since then we'd be able to either see you're right or perhaps see some erroneous piece that might have inadvertently skewed your tests in your favor. As it stands though, your argument is nothing anyone could go out and duplicate because you're not giving us enough to work with. You're giving your opinion, but not giving enough facts to really support it.

SRD, let's leave the insults out, okay?

Edited, Sep 2nd 2012 12:32pm by Vlorsutes
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