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PUP Magian weapons?Follow

#27 Aug 27 2012 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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Dammit, vlor, stop nuking posts before I get a chance to even read them.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#29 Aug 27 2012 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
Lady Jinte wrote:
Dammit, vlor, stop nuking posts before I get a chance to even read them.


It's not worth your time or frustration. It's just straight trolling, not even trying to mask it anymore. anyone who can muster a single IQ can see what s/he's doing. So let's ignore it and maybe it will go away.

So how about them Aurochs?
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#30 Aug 28 2012 at 3:14 AM Rating: Good
I have been alternatively working at building my DRK an EG weapon or laying into idiots all over the net taking up for Bethesda in their epic fail in releasing Dawnguard to the PS3; so i haven't been actively checking various PUP forums lately either. Wanted to weigh in on the bold question below however


KaynofTitan wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
Calm down bro, don't have a heart attack on account of your sick obsession with nonexistant math. You have issues. If you don't use PUP for anything you don't have the right to say anything about it. Your math is theoretical, it's not actual. Try using the job for once with proper gear. Whatever your IRL issues are it isn't an excuse to have such horrible gear and 0 knowledge of proper gear or game mechanics and calling yourself a PUP. You're not a PUP.


so now math is theoretical?

what happened to this forums since i last checked in :c



From what i'm seeing, and not just here from Zelduh, there are lots of ppl lvling PUP atm. Plenty of these new ladies and gents seem to be in that special place that only inhabited by those that are really new to something.

You know the type. Like say a freshman in college that is just discovering beer, or chicks, or that they can stay up all night now 'cause Mama ain't breathing down their neck to hit the sack at 10 o' clock any more. And they lose their ******* minds. Suddenly they are an expert on EVERYTHING and you can't tell them a **** thing. Even though they have only been in it a hot minute, they are suddenly God's gift of supreme awesomeness to the rest of us smoes.

Only thing for it is to buckle in and let them burn themselves out really. Do like Jinte, throw out some knowledge and let those that can recognize it for truth soak it up. And let the rest show us their divine brilliance....until reality hits them squa' in the mug and proceeds to grind special out of them.

At least that's my take on it. Gonna go finish this bottle i shoulda put down hours ago now and get a full nights sleep in 45 min.

Then time to face the day!

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#32 Aug 28 2012 at 4:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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PUP is a good damage dealer. But it is not good in the party/alliance situations that demand for the highest DD you can achieve. Those situations involve super-buffing, and, as explained before, the automation contribution is greatly dilluted because it isn't affected by those buffs. In colibri parties, even with a BRD handing marches and a RDM hasting, the automaton contribution was still very relevant, because those were, after all, T-VT mobs, not NMs 20 levels above you. But when yor automaton loses 5 regain, around 40% haste, lots of attack and/or accuracy, total invulnerability, and all the good stuff coming from a SCH/BRD/SMN, the PUP starts lagging behind spectacularly.

Throughout my entire leveling PUP career, in traditional (but level synced) parties, I outparsed everyone 90% of the time, because sharpshot was THAT good, provided a sensible use of attachments (and the master contributing himself, of course). But if you are against an NM that your automaton has a hard time hitting, and not only that, but kills it in 1-2 AoEs, keeping up on the damage as PUP is not possible.

PUP, right now, excels in lowman groups that can't afford many buffs. In those cases, a good PUP can destroy performance-wise the heavy DDs that require a WHM or a SCH babysitting them. Unfortunately, that kind of content is usually easy enough that being the best at it doesn't matter much.
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#34 Aug 29 2012 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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MNK has Focus (Believe it or not, acc can be an issue on high- end NMs again), and more important, has Impetus. It's easy to underestimate it, but the bonuses it provides to attack, acc and crit makes it just too good. On top of that there's the higher base attack, the better DD equipment options, and kick attacks, but Impetus takes most of the credit.
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#35 Aug 29 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
A competent PUP can easily outparse a MNK in ANY "zerg" situation where everyone is buffed up the ***. If you consider MNK a passable damage dealer, than so is PUP. Will a fully decked-out DRK or WAR win the parse if they're giving it 100%? Sure. But that doesn't mean the PUP was being useless as all you claim for doing slightly less damage in extremely optimal conditions for the other damage dealers. It's still a good damage dealer EVEN IN HIGH-BUFF SITUATIONS. And with Kenkonken, it could easily win against any job on anything.

And here, sadly, is proof that you simply don't read my posts. Ignoring the fact that high buff situations and extremely optimal conditions are pretty much the only endgame events in the game right now (VW, Legion, NNI), you also simply don't understand the limitations of the puppet, and the incredible advantages mnk has over pup in terms of damage output. The two jobs pup can't keep up with if they put any amount of effort in are mnk and war, and that's due to the fact that the heavy DD jobs like drk, drg, sam, and rng, who focus purely on dealing damage and can do almost nothing else 95% of the time (like mnk and war) can't always keep up with them.

Consider this:
Pup's offensive tools:
Tactical Switch: Which allows you one slightly better ws every few minutes because you can take TP from your puppet and use it for your own ws instead
Valoredge (360 base delay)
Sharpshot (400 Melee Delay, 12-20 seconds between ranged attacks)

Monk's offensive tools:
Boost (though it's not used at high haste, for the same reason maneuvers @#%^ us over)
Counter (If/when they pull hate) (Base 12% +5% from merits)
Focus
Counterstance (If feasible)
Kick Attacks (base 15% +5% from merits and more from TP gear)
lolfootwork (Basically a free high TP return WS every 5 minutes, also not often used)
Perfect Counter
Impetus
2 more tiers of Martial Arts (-40 delay; though this is reduced to 1~1.5 depending on gear, and ignoring kenkonken because everyone freely admits that kenkonken pups are something entirely different)
Higher Base STR, Base VIT, H2H skill (meaning higher atk, acc, and Base Dmg) relative to pup
Much better gear selection

However, even ignoring the significant edge counter grants whenever the mnk pulls hate; and gearing the mnk and pup as similarly as possible, including the same exact buffs, the outcome is easily shown. In fact, I'm not even going to do the math myself, I'll use the spreadsheets. Even you can't deny their accuracy.

Adjusting the gearsets slightly (will be shown in spoilers, and I'll simply be using the ones that give the highest results), let's try vs Pil
Buffs: Embrava (500skill), Haste, XI chaos and tactician rolls (with appropriate boosts), 25% def down on Pil (Relic+2 augmented angon), Red Curry Buns for both, Assuming capped STR/DEX/Crit/H2H/Shijin Merits. Both are /war, hume, and intelligent:
Mnk TP:
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Thew Bomblet 
Head	Tantra +2 
Neck	Rancor Max 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Moonshade AttRg 
Body	Tantra +2 (When impetus is up) 
		Thaumas (When impetus is down) 
Hands	Tenryu +1 Aug 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Atheling 
Waist	Black 
Legs		Tantra +2 
Feet		Tantra +2

Mnk WS (Shijin Spiral):
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Demonry 
Head	Ocelomeh +1 
Neck	Gorget 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Jupiter Pearl 
Body	Khepri Aug 
Hands	Athos 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Atheling 
Waist	Wanion 
Legs		Khepri Aug 
Feet		Thaumas


Pup TP:
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Range	Animator +1 
Head	Tenryu +1 Aug 
Neck	Rancor Max 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Moonshade AccRg (it's rather annoying, AccRegain is better for pup, AtkRegain for mnk, but Atk Regain is better for pup than AccRegain is for mnk) 
Body	Thaumas 
Hands	Tenryu +1 Aug 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Pantin (Atheling Mantle, y u so haet pup? Smiley: cry) 
Waist	Twilight 
Legs		Thaumas 
Feet		Cirque +2

Pup WS (Shijin Spiral):
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Animator +1 
Head	Ocelomeh +1 
Neck	Gorget 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Ghillie +1 
Body	Toci's 
Hands	Athos 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Pantin 
Waist	Ele.Belt 
Legs		Tenryu +1 Aug 
Feet		Cirque +2

Pup WS (Stringing Pummel):
 
Weapon	Oxyuranis (fire) 
Ammo	Animator +1 
Head	Ocelomeh +1 
Neck	Rancor Max 
Earring	Brutal 
Earring	Kemas 
Body	Toci's 
Hands	Athos 
Ring		Rajas 
Ring		Epona 
Back		Pantin 
Waist	Ele.Belt 
Legs		Tenryu +1 Aug 
Feet		Cirque +2 


Mnk Results:
Average:
- 92.25% hit rate
- 21.5% crit rate
- 406.165 dps

Pup Results:
Shijin Spiral:
Average:
- 89% hit rate
- 17% crit rate
- 359.975 dps (No Maneuvers)
- 327.250 dps (1 Maneuver/20 sec)
Stringing Pummel:
- 89% hit rate
- 17% crit rate
- 355.251 dps (No Maneuvers; note that higher def mobs like pil favor shijin over pummel)
- 322.955 dps (1 Maneuver/20 Sec)


Based on this, let's use shijin's results:
Difference between Mnk and Pup:
Hit Rate: 3.25% in favor of Mnk
Crit Rate: 4.5% in favor of Mnk
Average DPS: 46.19 in favor of Mnk (If not using maneuvers)
Average DPS: 83.21 in favor of Mnk (If using maneuvers at 1/20sec)

And remember, this is damage per second. If we spread this average out over 5 Minutes of fighting and you get this:
Mnk: 121849.5 damage
Pup: 107992.5 (No Maneuvers)
Pup: 98175 (1 maneuver/20 sec)

This makes the difference even clearer, with mnk ahead of No Maneuvers Pup by 13857 damage, and Maneuvers Pup by 23674.5 damage, and No Maneuvers Pup ahead of Maneuvers Pup by 9817.5 damage. Using Maneuvers cost you an average of just under 2k damage per minute. Losing 10k damage is pretty harsh, and while the strongest attachment set up might push the puppet's damage up to make up that deficit, the 14-23.5k damage difference between pup and mnk isn't going to happen. Ever. And this doesn't even account for counter, which will further increase monk's DPS every time they pull hate long enough to get swung at.

Edited, Aug 29th 2012 7:14pm by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#37 Aug 30 2012 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Prove your point. Parses, calculations on spreadsheets or whatever, playing alongside someone who disagree with you and having his/her testimonial... Just prove it in some manner, or be silent forever.
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#38 Aug 30 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Using Maneuvers cost you an average of just under 2k damage per minute. Losing 10k damage is pretty harsh, and while the strongest attachment set up might push the puppet's damage up to make up that deficit, the 14-23.5k damage difference between pup and mnk isn't going to happen. Ever. And this doesn't even account for counter, which will further increase monk's DPS every time they pull hate long enough to get swung at.



Just curious, but were all those calculations just comparing MNK to the PUP itself, without the puppet?

As a job that's 60-70% master, 30-40% pet, that could (very) roughly put PUP dmg totals at 461.364 - 599.958 dps?

I'm sure that in the ideal situation you described, the master is getting a ton of buffs that aren't applying to the puppet, so the balance is going to be skewed far more towards the master than that. And yes, that is just a semi-meaningless percentage calculation with no real data behind it other than playing with the numbers you provided.

But.

Including some calculations that include the puppet would be a more accurate comparison, and would be less easily refuted. Your "might" is a pretty significant gap that you just kind of gloss over in your otherwise flawless argument.

Perhaps even a calculated comparison like this would be helpful in indicating to SE if some sort of adjustment needs to be made? *cough*A2-hourThatLetsUsShareBuffsWithPuppetInsteadOfWeakCopiesOfOtherJobs*cough*
#39 Aug 30 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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The reason we compare PUP to MNK in this situation without including the Automaton is mainly because it's a situation containing near constant AoEs. This means that in most cases, the Automaton is dead nearly 80-90% of the time. In other words, their damage is much smaller than it normally would be. This means that instead of the normal 70/30 (or 60/40) spread we have on damage, it turns more into 90/10 (perhaps even 95/5) simply because we cannot keep the Automaton alive long enough due to the large amount of damage being outputted by the mob and the low amount of survivability the Automaton themselves have.

Now, some might say that this is negated by the fact we can summon the Automaton, via Deus Ex, every minute. However this adds more problems,
1) More ability delay which will cause the master to lose out on damage.
2) The Automaton is summoned at such a low % of HP that it is very likely within a few seconds of the ability being used, it is going to die again.

If this is wrong I'm sure someone with more experience will come out to correct me but this seems the most likely reasoning.
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#40 Aug 31 2012 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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@Jinte: Why are you still responding to anything Zelduh says about pup!? You proved solidly he has no credibility. Responding to him further implies he has any credibility.

CireXF seems to be playing devil's advocate...

There are no solid calculations players have right now for pet damage mechanics.
Jinte has done a good amount of work on automatons.
I've done a bit on bst pets.
Kegsay did it for Avatars at 75, but that's outdated now.
and I'm not sure, but I don't think anyone has cared enough to test wyvern....

I can say for bst (and pup and bst have similiary ratios of Master:Pet DD) that in unbuffed situations the pet jobs are going to kick the trash out of the non pet jobs. I had great fun outparsing my 99 UKON war friend on DC dynamis mobs on bst a few weeks ago.

The thing is, if you go from unbuffed, to fully buffed, the individual damage is going to go to pretty much go 5x the damage for main only.

The pet just doesn't make up that difference. pet would need to do ~5x the difference between a mnk's damage and pup's damage in unbuffed situations. Which means your pet would be doing more like 80% of the damage in unbuffed situations to make up the difference when you get buffed up.

I'm not using hard numbers, but I hope I kept it a simple comparison for all those who don't want to crunch each number.
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#41 Aug 31 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, mostly playing DA, but actually curious as to how far behind we actually are. Jinte's player dmg calculations are fantastic, but neither side of the argument has any parses or calculations at the moment to show just how effective or ineffective the puppet would be in these fights. It just seems a total no-brainer that MNK>Master. PUP haters have been making that fallacy of a comparison ever since the job was released.

Dragonmaster's explanation that the puppet just can't survive long enough to deal much damage makes total sense. I've never done VW or Legion, or any other endgame zerg-style events, so I didn't realize the conditions of those fights (and holy cow, with that much dmg, how do zerg players survive, and why in god's name is SE designing fights that require dmg immunity? /endtangent), but I hope I'm making it clear that I'm not claiming to KNOW anything, but rather asking for clarification so that I understand better, and maybe other PUPs might have similar questions and be able to find answers as well.

So, from my admittedly limited perspective, Jinte made it sound as though Puppet dmg would count for something in such a fight, but didn't really provide any examples of why she was discounting its dmg contributions.

Again, not based on any hard data or calculations, but it doesn't seem implausible to me at all that a Sharpshot would be able to deal a WS every minute, right? And Armor Shatterer is generally 2500+ dmg (+def down on the mob. Does that stack with other forms of defense down I'm assuming have already been applied?).

Shooting at every 20 sec, gives you 3 Ranged Attacks (300 dmg each sound reasonable?) which will probably give at least 900-ish dmg.

Maybe 8-ish melee strikes with 400 delay and no haste, so close to 1000 dmg if all melee hits connect?

That's 4400-ish per minute from the puppet, and stretched out over 5 minutes, is 22,000 damage (pretty close to the 23.5k difference that Jinte said the puppet would never be able to make up).

Again, my assumptions could be totally off b/c I really don't have a clue about the def, evasion, resistances of the zerged mobs in question (though I'm still guessing that it would be reduced as much as possible for the zerging melees). I'm just saying that as a super casual, yet still enthusiastic PUP player, I'd like to know if my guess work has any foundation in reality so I can better understand this job I love :)

*edited for math I failed at*

Edited, Aug 31st 2012 5:40pm by CireXF
#43 Sep 01 2012 at 5:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yo DO realize that nothing in that rambling can be considered a proof, right? No parses, nor calculations of some sort. Just "Use Schurzen!". Well, I'll tell you something: first, Schurzen only works on physical attacks. Second, it only works once, and leaves the automaton at 1 HP. Even if you apply an oil instantly, it's not going to regain full HP, and it's going to die to the next AoE.

Finally, yes, I think Qilin is a pretty good candidate for PUP to use a DD automaton. Well, it can breakga, paralyga IIRC, and a bunch of annoying stuff AoE, but if the master has Fools up you can heal the automaton fast. Stonega IV shouldn't be that dangerous, so, yeah, that's one PUP can try to tackle (and will probably do alright). But even in this case, pretty favorable to PUP, we're dealing with several AoE annoyances. Other cases, which, by the way, are exactly the ones we were talking about, the ones of "zerg or die" are great automaton cementery generators.

Edit: Grammar.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2012 6:58pm by TaimMeich
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#45 Sep 01 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
Sorry to break it to you but you're incredibly wrong. You're wildy overestimating the tiny "advantage" MNK has over PUP.

No, you're vastly underestimating it.
CireXF wrote:
Just curious, but were all those calculations just comparing MNK to the PUP itself, without the puppet?

As a job that's 60-70% master, 30-40% pet, that could (very) roughly put PUP dmg totals at 461.364 - 599.958 dps?

I'm sure that in the ideal situation you described, the master is getting a ton of buffs that aren't applying to the puppet, so the balance is going to be skewed far more towards the master than that. And yes, that is just a semi-meaningless percentage calculation with no real data behind it other than playing with the numbers you provided.

But.

Including some calculations that include the puppet would be a more accurate comparison, and would be less easily refuted. Your "might" is a pretty significant gap that you just kind of gloss over in your otherwise flawless argument.


There are several reasons I left out the pet's damage, two of which have already been brought up. The heavy AoE in theses situations makes it hard to keep the puppet alive, yes, but primarily, it's what xilk said; most of the pet damage equations are still unknown. We don't know exactly how pet pDIF, cRatio, fSTR, Weapon Rank, and Level Correction are handled. ****, we don't even know if attack, accuracy, defense, and evasion are calculated the same way. This makes it very difficult to give accurate math. My post was based purely on kinematics' spreadsheets, which can't currently account for pet damage, and I didn't want to include pure speculation. While the values for player stats are known, all we know for certain for the pet values is this:
- Automaton ranged attack pDIF caps at 3.0 like player ranged attack pDIF
- Neither Pet Melee nor Pet Ranged fSTR does not follow the same pattern as either fSTR (melee weapons) or fSTR2 (ranged weapons), but we cannot be certain that they follow the same pattern (ie: fSTR3 applied for all pet damage) or different patterns (fSTR3 for pet melee, fSTR4 for pet ranged)
--- Pet Ranged fSTR caps at a dSTR of 101 (102 str vs a target with 1 vit) which is ludicrously high, and pet melee attacks seem to follow this pattern as well (as evidenced by the avatar fSTR testing)
- Pet Ranged attacks do not work like player ranged attacks at all, and function somewhat like weaponskills or damaging job abilities. This is evidenced by the fact that they cannot crit, and have a very significant dex mod. Whether they're a ws or a JA depends on whether or not the dex mod is subject to an alpha value, which I've yet to determine
- Pets are subject to some sort of level correction adjustment that is very different from what players deal with (evidenced by how strong valoredge was vs kirin at 75 cap), but what that specific difference is we can't say for certain (My theories are either that pet pDIF floors at 1.0 like monster pDIF, or pet fSTR doesn't go into the negatives like player fSTR can (ie: oxyuranis has an fSTR range of -4 to 12, meaning that it can add up to 12 weapon damage but if your target has at least 20 vit more than you have str, it will reduce your weapon damage by 4 instead)
- I'm not even certain whether pet's melee attacks count as 1H or 2H attacks (ie: how they convert str/dex to atk/acc), because the more I play with valoredge to test this stuff, the more my gut is telling me that little clipper is getting counted as a 2h weapon.

Xilk wrote:
@Jinte: Why are you still responding to anything Zelduh says about pup!? You proved solidly he has no credibility. Responding to him further implies he has any credibility.

Mostly because it entertains me, and I love the melodrama Smiley: lol

CireXF wrote:
Yeah, mostly playing DA, but actually curious as to how far behind we actually are. Jinte's player dmg calculations are fantastic, but neither side of the argument has any parses or calculations at the moment to show just how effective or ineffective the puppet would be in these fights. It just seems a total no-brainer that MNK>Master. PUP haters have been making that fallacy of a comparison ever since the job was released.

Dragonmaster's explanation that the puppet just can't survive long enough to deal much damage makes total sense. I've never done VW or Legion, or any other endgame zerg-style events, so I didn't realize the conditions of those fights (and holy cow, with that much dmg, how do zerg players survive, and why in god's name is SE designing fights that require dmg immunity? /endtangent), but I hope I'm making it clear that I'm not claiming to KNOW anything, but rather asking for clarification so that I understand better, and maybe other PUPs might have similar questions and be able to find answers as well.

So, from my admittedly limited perspective, Jinte made it sound as though Puppet dmg would count for something in such a fight, but didn't really provide any examples of why she was discounting its dmg contributions.

Again, not based on any hard data or calculations, but it doesn't seem implausible to me at all that a Sharpshot would be able to deal a WS every minute, right? And Armor Shatterer is generally 2500+ dmg (+def down on the mob. Does that stack with other forms of defense down I'm assuming have already been applied?).

Shooting at every 20 sec, gives you 3 Ranged Attacks (300 dmg each sound reasonable?) which will probably give at least 900-ish dmg.

Maybe 8-ish melee strikes with 400 delay and no haste, so close to 1000 dmg if all melee hits connect?

That's 4400-ish per minute from the puppet, and stretched out over 5 minutes, is 22,000 damage (pretty close to the 23.5k difference that Jinte said the puppet would never be able to make up).

Again, my assumptions could be totally off b/c I really don't have a clue about the def, evasion, resistances of the zerged mobs in question (though I'm still guessing that it would be reduced as much as possible for the zerging melees). I'm just saying that as a super casual, yet still enthusiastic PUP player, I'd like to know if my guess work has any foundation in reality so I can better understand this job I love :)


If you assume no maneuvers (and thus no drum magazine) but with turbo charger, then with 10.2 TP/melee hit and 9.3 per ranged attack, you'll have melee attacks every 6.5 seconds, and ranged attacks every 20 seconds. The puppet can't melee between starting the shooting animation and the attack landing, but as soon as the attack actually lands (even before it shows up in the chat log) it can attack, but I'm fairly sure there's at least a 1 second delay, if not a full 2 second JA delay. This means that you'll get 2 melee swings in for each ranged shot, and a rare third depending on timing (you're not going to get 3 every time without more haste), so that's 3 ranged attacks and 6 melee attacks per minute, or 89.1 TP. Additionally, the puppet almost never weaponskills at 100%, and usually ends up holding it to anywhere from 120% to 150% on average, which means you're likely getting 1 ws every 2 or 3 minutes, rather than 1 every minute. This is kind of why turbo charger and drum magazine are so important for sharpshot's damage. Even if you add in an extra hit for random luck, that's still 99.3 TP/minute, and that's not even accounting for accuracy.

Sharpshot's going to have a base ranged acc of 444 and a base melee acc of 417 (both assuming that acc is calculated like player acc, because acc seems to be fairly universal), both before attachments; with no maneuvers, Scope adds +10 r.acc, and Stab II adds +10 acc, so 454 and 427. The enemy used for the pup/mnk comparison had 485 eva, and was at level 106. This would give a raw hit rate of 45.5% for ranged attacks, and 27% for melee attacks, but since we don't know exactly how target marker works, I can't really account for it. The current theory I know of was ignoring 15% evasion per maneuver, but we know it works without maneuvers, and I haven't seen the testing for those numbers to know how accurate they are. If they are the case, then it would reduce Qilin's evasion to 412 effectively (if 15% with no maneuvers), which would give 82% ranged hit rate and 63.5% melee hit rate, which honestly sounds about right.

Without TM, you're talking 1 in 2 ranged attacks landing and 3 in 10 melee attacks; so over 5 minutes, 6~7 of 15 ranged attacks and 8 of 30 Melee attacks. I shouldn't need to show you the TP return for how abysmal that is to be clear. With the theoretical TM, 12 of 15 ranged attacks, and 19 of 13 melee attacks, or 305.4 TP, and given how the puppet holds TP like crazy, that's 2 WS. Now, This is further exacerbated by the fact that Qilin has 120 vit, and there's no feasible way for sharpshot's 92 STR to even equal that (3x FM with AF gloves bonus and cirque gloves +2 gives a total of +37 str, or 129), let alone pass it, so sharpshot's dSTR is going to be utterly miserable.

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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#47 Sep 01 2012 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
If you use tactical processor


Screenshot
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LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#48 Sep 01 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
If you use tactical processor


Screenshot


That's probably the only and best reply anyone could give to that statement.
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#51 Sep 02 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
I will say a few things that come to mind Zelduh. Your point is that Jinte's math is purely hypothetical and not necessarily accurate because your "experiences" in the field as you put it differ from what her math indicates, and you use a world is flat/round analogy to depict this. I have to say that, if anything, I believe your analogy is backwards. Jinte makes several points given information and formulas painstakingly developed, tested, and proven by several other individuals establishing just how significant the difference between Monk and Puppetmaster would be in a standard situation, and your responses to it give no empirical information to back up your point, just your own personal experiences. Jinte better fits of a scientist attempting to prove that the world is round using data gathered, and you're the individual trying to prove that it's flat because you claimed to have reached the edge but aren't giving any proof that you ever did (not using this analogy to say I think you're wrong necessarily, just using it as an example).

Part of the scientific method to support a hypothesis involves tangible testing and being able to produce results that can be analyzed and, in turn, be tested by others. While Jinte is sitting pretty much on the prediction step of the method, you yourself have already jumped to the analysis step without showing any of your own evidence to support your claims. One of the reasons that your arguments are coming under such criticism is that, while you're fervently arguing one point, you're not actually giving any empirical data to support it. If you gave us clear, tangible information that could be analyzed and tested by others, it'd be one thing, since then we'd be able to either see you're right or perhaps see some erroneous piece that might have inadvertently skewed your tests in your favor. As it stands though, your argument is nothing anyone could go out and duplicate because you're not giving us enough to work with. You're giving your opinion, but not giving enough facts to really support it.

SRD, let's leave the insults out, okay?

Edited, Sep 2nd 2012 12:32pm by Vlorsutes
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