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Pup sucks in Zergs. This is a fact.Follow

#52 Jul 27 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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Dalans wrote:
As an After thought I realized Jinte read my post and went on to reply with precise helpful info and not once berated me for my ignorance.

I feel proud of Jinte and perhaps a little cheated personally.

Smiley: laugh

Zelduh wrote:
Except I'm not trolling, but nothing I say will convince you people because of such narrow-mindedness so I'm not gonna bother.

Pups, especially long-time pups, are the ******* antithesis of Narrow-minded Smiley: lol

Zelduh wrote:
MNK doesn't have access to any more TA or DA than PUP does, and haste is irrelevant because PUP can easily cap it. The tiny damage difference MNK has over PUP is easily made up with the puppet. The end.

Nothing I say will convince you people that PUP is a good damage dealer, so there's no point in this discussion. It's like discussing religion. It's pointless to try and thus I'm not going to bother


Regardless of which job has access to more DA or TA (since for this point, Zelduh's not necessarily wrong, if you only account for practical DA options, and he is, sadly, correct as far as TA is concerned, since every TA piece either job can wear has both mnk and pup on it), you're vastly overestimating the puppet's performance in a zerg, and vastly underestimating the difference in damage between a mnk and a pup in a zerg. Let's take a look here:

If you generously assume that both the mnk and the pup have equal DA, TA, Haste, Crit Rate. Store TP, and Regain, and that they're both using the same weapon (in this case, let's say STR path oxyuranis; note that this also means both will have the same attack speed) the raw stat difference is going to come out something like this:

Mnk:
Attack: +15~20 (before gear)
Accuracy: +15~20 (before gear)
Base STR: +~6 (Varies by race, this is comparing two humes) (also note that pup and mnk have equal base dex)
Base Damage +2 (51 to pup's 49)
Kick Attacks +27% (with kicks having a weapon D of +45, so 96)
Impetus
Focus
Counter (pulling hate on mnk INCREASES your damage by a good margin, if you have the right gear)

Pup:
Automaton (I'll math this out to demonstrate what it adds and why it's not enough)
TP/hit: +0.2 (before store TP; 5.1 to mnk's 4.9)
Significantly higher evasion

First and foremost, let's cover the first massive advantage mnk has over pup; Impetus. Ignoring the attack gain, impetus, to achieve it's max buff, requires the mnk land 50 consecutive hits (ie: not missing 50 attacks in a row). Note, however, that this is attacks,and not attack rounds. If TA procs twice and KA procs as well, and they all hit, that's 7 attacks for the count. Now, at 50 hits, the bonus caps off at a staggering Crit hit Rate +50% as well as Crit hit Damage +50% (if AF3+2 body is worn). If both players are using the same weapon, at haste cap they will have the same attack speed, and due to martial arts, the pup will even get slightly more TP/hit, however, the 27% kick rate will negate that extra TP fairly quickly, and doesn't even begin to cover how huge the damage output difference will be due to impetus. Even if it's not maintained at max, in this situation, it will average out to still be a large increase to crit rate and crit damage (how it averages depends on what you're fighting, but even being generous towards pup, it'd be ~20% for each, so ~15% once you account for impetus' duration, realistically, in a high acc/haste situation, it'd be more like ~25% with duration accounted for).

Now let's look at kick attacks. 27% means that 1 in four of the mnk's attack rounds will have an extra hit (not accounting for the AF3+2 set bonus adding a second kick, because that ****'s to annoying to math out, and is at most a 1~2% net increase in KA rate), all of which will have +13 D over the pup's hits and +11 over the mnk's non kicks, and all of which get full (4.9 before store TP) TP return. Thus, while the pup has higher TP/hit, kick attacks means that the monk will average a noticeably larger number of attacks, which means it will gain more TP than the pup, and thus, weapon skill more often.

Further, let's look at WS. If you want to be fair, either both will be using shijin spiral, or the pup will be using stringing pummel. For pup Shijin Spiral and Stringing Pummel are approximately equal in strength, with SS favoring high defense and SP favoring low defense, however a Monk's Shijin Spiral will always average more damage than a pup's (and thus, by extension, will average more than stringing pummel), for one very simple reason: Mnk has access to far, far more good dex gear than pup, and will thus be able to more handily take advantage of SS's 100% dex mod.

Additionally, Mnk will always have an easier time capping pDIF, fSTR, and Hit Rate, and will average higher in all three against the tougher NMs that no one will be capped on. The combination of Impetus, Focus, Kick Attacks, WS rate, and WS Damage results in a rather large lead for the mnk, and this is before accounting for the huge hit to damage output a pup takes if they want their puppet to not suck (read: using maneuvers). In my OP how maintaining 1 manuever every 20 seconds costs pup ~1 ws/minute at capped haste. Consider that; using maneuvers in high haste means that the distance between mnk and pup TP rates will get even larger.

If you give each job 3% TA, 45% DA (based on gear average and buffs), the pup will average 88 attacks/minute, while the monk will average 126. that's 448.8 TP to 617 TP, before store TP, or ~2 WS/minute from kick attacks alone). If pup loses another ws/min due to maneuvers, that means that mnk is putting out twice as many WS as the pup, at higher damage per ws.

Thus, Your puppet needs to average at least 3 WS/minute to even be able to keep up with the mnk, let alone the fact that Armor Shatterer won't necessarily out damage, or even compare to, a mnk's shijin spiral on many zerged mobs. However, for the sake of the argument, let's see what Sharpshot's Max TP rate (since that's what I did for pup and mnk, despite the fact that if I accounted for acc, the mnk would be further ahead, and acc would greatly reduce sharpshot's TP rate as well, because it's melee skill is an awesome C rank) would be with Turbo Charger and Drum Magazine at 3 wind maneuvers (If you're using barrage turbine in a zerg, you're going to lose another 1-2 ws/minute trying to keep maneuvers up).

Sharpshot has 400 base delay (10.2 TP/hit), and 20 seconds between ranged attack (which use 360 delay for TP, so 9.3 TP/hit). With 3x maneuvers, turbo charger will be at 25% haste (300 delay), and Drum Magazine will have Sharpshot at 12 seconds between ranged attacks. After you account for the delay caused by the Ranged Attack animation, you'll effectively have Sharpshot swinging twice for every single time it shoots, or for a total of 15 attacks per minute or 148.5 TP/minute BEFORE accounting for sharpshot's terrible melee accuracy. at 1 ws/minute, there's absolutely no way sharpshot can negate the difference between a mnk and a pup. AND THIS IS WITH SHARPSHOT BUFFED.

So, let's try Valoredge? You know string shredder won't be able to keep up with shijin spiral, but VE should have a higher WS rate, right? Well, the short answer is no. Because VE can't wear gear, vs anything you'd zerg, you would need Targert Marker and Stab II to be able to have decent acc, which means no coiler, which means no double attack, which means with 3x wind maneuvers, VE will average 12 attacks/minute, or 111 TP/minute, which is even worse than sharpshot. The only advantage VE has is that it's less likely to get wasted by any stray AoE.

So yea, Pup cannot out damage a Mnk if both are on equal footing, pet or no pet. ***************** D.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#53 Jul 27 2012 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Regardless of which job has access to more DA or TA (since for this point, Zelduh's not necessarily wrong, if you only account for practical DA options, and he is, sadly, correct as far as TA is concerned, since every TA piece either job can wear has both mnk and pup on it), you're vastly overestimating the puppet's performance in a zerg, and vastly underestimating the difference in damage between a mnk and a pup in a zerg. Let's take a look here:


You know, just mathing the Kick Attack percentage vs Automaton in a zerg situation would've probably been easier and faster. ****, you don't really have to because any high haste situation will make any additional attack abilities like Kicks, DA, or TA become more potent so.
#54 Jul 27 2012 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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Nothing but love for Jinte, but easier and faster aren't exactly her forte lol
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#55 Jul 27 2012 at 11:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shouta wrote:
Quote:

Regardless of which job has access to more DA or TA (since for this point, Zelduh's not necessarily wrong, if you only account for practical DA options, and he is, sadly, correct as far as TA is concerned, since every TA piece either job can wear has both mnk and pup on it), you're vastly overestimating the puppet's performance in a zerg, and vastly underestimating the difference in damage between a mnk and a pup in a zerg. Let's take a look here:


You know, just mathing the Kick Attack percentage vs Automaton in a zerg situation would've probably been easier and faster. ****, you don't really have to because any high haste situation will make any additional attack abilities like Kicks, DA, or TA become more potent so.


As much as I'd love to have just done that, I felt that going the extra mile made the point a little more clear. And I forgot I could do that. Smiley: motz

LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Nothing but love for Jinte, but easier and faster aren't exactly her forte lol

Sad, but true. My posts are pretty much either one liners or walls of text Smiley: laugh

Also, you get a ******* Smiley: cookie for getting that **** pronoun right Smiley: inlove

Edited, Jul 28th 2012 12:42am by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#56 Jul 30 2012 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.
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#57 Jul 30 2012 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod
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Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#58 Jul 30 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot

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LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#59 Aug 02 2012 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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All I have to say is - I went on vacation and am in the middle of moving, so I've been kind of out of the Alla loop for a couple weeks. Now I come back to see... I don't even...

This is gonna be some **** fine reading for the next time I have a lull at work. I actually have to thank EVERYONE here, including Zelduh. You can't buy entertainment like this. Thanks everyone!
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#60 Aug 03 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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don't forget to check out my other massive WoT thread, they gave our puppet access to mighty strikes on the test server today, so I can finally, get some ******* concrete numbers on pet (melee) weapon damage ratings.
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LOLGAXE IS MY ETERNAL RIVAL!

Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#62 Dec 30 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Lady Jinte wrote:
Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot




I lol'd, and i regret nothing.
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#63 Jan 02 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaynofTitan wrote:
Lady Jinte wrote:
Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot




I lol'd, and i regret nothing.


Is it odd that i STILL come back to this thread sometimes when i'm feeling blue?
____________________________
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One of my server's brightest minds... wrote:
Not to make too extreme a comparison, but Rog is like Nelson Mandella...


Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#64 Jan 04 2013 at 5:14 AM Rating: Excellent
spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
KaynofTitan wrote:
Lady Jinte wrote:
Friar spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
Xilk wrote:
Take this thread for what it is.
Jinte casts Math Proof on Zelduh
No effect.
Jinte reduces Zelduh's credibility points to 0.


Indeed! Smiley: nod

That's what happens when I use...

THESE MATHEMATICS SKILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED DOWN THE ARMSTRONG FAMILY FOR GENERATIONS!
Screenshot




I lol'd, and i regret nothing.


Is it odd that i STILL come back to this thread sometimes when i'm feeling blue?


nope, **** fine read, i read last math-wall from jinte at least twice a weak, and i every time i come back, I wish magically they would have changed to "pup and monk are pretty equal on a zerg situation" but that never happens :c, I still lol pretty hard.
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#65 Jan 07 2013 at 4:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Love the image. Finished FMA and feel sad.
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#66 Feb 01 2013 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ahhhhh nothing like reading a Jinte *** whoopin, to make my day better.
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#67 Feb 05 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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I wish we could get some numbers in these posts in regards to how much of a difference there is between the two. Right now, words like "a lot", "much more", "a great difference" are thrown around, but those are all subjective.

I feel like the math takes it pretty far, but it always seems to stop just short of describing how much of a difference there is between pup and monk in a zerg. You use math to describe how monk would do more damage, but from the numbers you use its impossible for your average pup (like me) to see exactly HOW much of a difference. I understand from your post that given the similar gear in terms of haste, da, ta, regain, store tp, etc. that monk WS's will come more frequently and hit harder. But its all just arbitrary talk at that point. HOW MUCH more frequently do they occur and HOW MUCH harder do they hit. Just hearing that the monks ws's hit "much" harder does nothing for me. If the difference in a pup's dps versus monk's over 5 minutes is 2%-3% I don't mind bringing pup with me to an event. If we're talking 10-15% then that is significant.

It really just comes down to the difference in a pup's ws damage/frequency offset by how much the puppet can do (without maneuvers, as you proved in your first post in a zerg situation using maneuvers only lowers our total dps). I am not disagreeing with anything that has been posted up to this point, you've convinced everyone that the puppets damage is not enough to bring pup up to a monks level, but it would help a lot to see what kind of difference we are talking about.

Edited, Feb 5th 2013 4:39pm by novaryu
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#69 Feb 06 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
novaryu wrote:
I wish we could get some numbers in these posts in regards to how much of a difference there is between the two. Right now, words like "a lot", "much more", "a great difference" are thrown around, but those are all subjective.

I feel like the math takes it pretty far, but it always seems to stop just short of describing how much of a difference there is between pup and monk in a zerg. You use math to describe how monk would do more damage, but from the numbers you use its impossible for your average pup (like me) to see exactly HOW much of a difference. I understand from your post that given the similar gear in terms of haste, da, ta, regain, store tp, etc. that monk WS's will come more frequently and hit harder. But its all just arbitrary talk at that point. HOW MUCH more frequently do they occur and HOW MUCH harder do they hit. Just hearing that the monks ws's hit "much" harder does nothing for me. If the difference in a pup's dps versus monk's over 5 minutes is 2%-3% I don't mind bringing pup with me to an event. If we're talking 10-15% then that is significant.

It really just comes down to the difference in a pup's ws damage/frequency offset by how much the puppet can do (without maneuvers, as you proved in your first post in a zerg situation using maneuvers only lowers our total dps). I am not disagreeing with anything that has been posted up to this point, you've convinced everyone that the puppets damage is not enough to bring pup up to a monks level, but it would help a lot to see what kind of difference we are talking about.

Edited, Feb 5th 2013 4:39pm by novaryu


I wish I could give you an excact number, but one of the things that hurts us the most is that the Automaton is not getting any buffs like cor rolls and brd songs or haste and that maneuvers have a job ability delay associated with them which is like, 2 seconds, if you understand how much 2 seconds on a high haste situation is you will get it, and no I don't think its 2-3% its way more, crunching numbers is not easy, and god knows if jinte would take the time to do it again.

just learn to deal with it, the very nature of how the job works hinders it from working "optimally" on a zerg situation, its just bad luck that almost all high end game is about SPEEDOMGLOL right now.
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#70 Feb 06 2013 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
Zelduh wrote:
That's the thing. Everyone claims math but they don't have the numbers to back it up.


I know one person that has not given ANY numbers to back up his claims, oh right, that's you! because I've seen jinte's math and its pretty darn convincing.

Edited, Feb 7th 2013 12:33am by KaynofTitan
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#71 Feb 07 2013 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
KaynofTitan wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
That's the thing. Everyone claims math but they don't have the numbers to back it up.


I know one person that has not given ANY numbers to back up his claims, oh right, that's you! because I've seen jinte's math and its pretty darn convincing.

Edited, Feb 7th 2013 12:33am by KaynofTitan


Let's not start anything. The last time we had a really heated Pup argument, Kao had to come in here to quell it.
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#72 Feb 11 2013 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
Professor Shock Vlorsutes wrote:
KaynofTitan wrote:
Zelduh wrote:
That's the thing. Everyone claims math but they don't have the numbers to back it up.


I know one person that has not given ANY numbers to back up his claims, oh right, that's you! because I've seen jinte's math and its pretty darn convincing.

Edited, Feb 7th 2013 12:33am by KaynofTitan


Let's not start anything. The last time we had a really heated Pup argument, Kao had to come in here to quell it.

agreed, not trying to "start" anything.
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#73 Feb 14 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I wish I could give you an excact number, but one of the things that hurts us the most is that the Automaton is not getting any buffs like cor rolls and brd songs or haste and that maneuvers have a job ability delay associated with them which is like, 2 seconds, if you understand how much 2 seconds on a high haste situation is you will get it, and no I don't think its 2-3% its way more, crunching numbers is not easy, and god knows if jinte would take the time to do it again.

just learn to deal with it, the very nature of how the job works hinders it from working "optimally" on a zerg situation, its just bad luck that almost all high end game is about SPEEDOMGLOL right now.


All of those words mean essentially nothing. There is no argument that automatons don't get cor buffs/brd song, everyone realizes that (however the puppetmaster himself benefits just fine from them). No one is arguing that a 2 second delay wouldn't hurt the puppetmaster, however in this case it is again irrelevant because the math has already proven that a puppetmaster will do more damage in a high haste environment by not using any maneuvers. The only thing we have to determine is what the difference in damage is between a similarly geared pup and monk over the course of a 5 minute fight. The monk will obviously outdps the puppetmaster himself, but then we need to subtract the damage the puppet contributed (a puppet with no maneuvers active over the course of the 5 minute fight). Again, no one is arguing that the monk won't come out ahead, the only question that is left is how much ahead he is.

I'm glad that you "don't think its 2-3%", but what you think doesn't help anyone. No one cares about the arbitrary opinions of people on the forums. I am not going to leave an LS pup behind based of the feelings of people from the forums. But I would leave him behind if someone could provide me enough math that convinced me bringing one is a significant enough dps loss to the entire group that it puts us in jeopardy of losing fights we could win. So far, I have not been entirely convinced of it, but I am open to hearing the evidence if anyone could take the math that extra step.

However, I realize that is not something trivial to throw together, so if no one gets to it is understandable. Until then I'll go on trusting that pups aren't as far behind as some people think they are. No maneuver armor piercers hit pretty hard, and seem to go a long way to offset the difference in damage and frequency between pup and monk weaponskills. This is based purely on a few arbitrary group parses that mean nothing in the big picture, but until I have actual math to prove things one way or another, subjective info is about all we have.
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#74 Feb 15 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
novaryu wrote:
Quote:
I wish I could give you an excact number, but one of the things that hurts us the most is that the Automaton is not getting any buffs like cor rolls and brd songs or haste and that maneuvers have a job ability delay associated with them which is like, 2 seconds, if you understand how much 2 seconds on a high haste situation is you will get it, and no I don't think its 2-3% its way more, crunching numbers is not easy, and god knows if jinte would take the time to do it again.

just learn to deal with it, the very nature of how the job works hinders it from working "optimally" on a zerg situation, its just bad luck that almost all high end game is about SPEEDOMGLOL right now.


All of those words mean essentially nothing. There is no argument that automatons don't get cor buffs/brd song, everyone realizes that (however the puppetmaster himself benefits just fine from them). No one is arguing that a 2 second delay wouldn't hurt the puppetmaster, however in this case it is again irrelevant because the math has already proven that a puppetmaster will do more damage in a high haste environment by not using any maneuvers. The only thing we have to determine is what the difference in damage is between a similarly geared pup and monk over the course of a 5 minute fight. The monk will obviously outdps the puppetmaster himself, but then we need to subtract the damage the puppet contributed (a puppet with no maneuvers active over the course of the 5 minute fight). Again, no one is arguing that the monk won't come out ahead, the only question that is left is how much ahead he is.

I'm glad that you "don't think its 2-3%", but what you think doesn't help anyone. No one cares about the arbitrary opinions of people on the forums. I am not going to leave an LS pup behind based of the feelings of people from the forums. But I would leave him behind if someone could provide me enough math that convinced me bringing one is a significant enough dps loss to the entire group that it puts us in jeopardy of losing fights we could win. So far, I have not been entirely convinced of it, but I am open to hearing the evidence if anyone could take the math that extra step.

However, I realize that is not something trivial to throw together, so if no one gets to it is understandable. Until then I'll go on trusting that pups aren't as far behind as some people think they are. No maneuver armor piercers hit pretty hard, and seem to go a long way to offset the difference in damage and frequency between pup and monk weaponskills. This is based purely on a few arbitrary group parses that mean nothing in the big picture, but until I have actual math to prove things one way or another, subjective info is about all we have.


this is a private message I sent to kinematics a while ago, as you see burattinaios was still "broken" so you can figure out from how long this message was.

Quote:
KaynofTitan wrote:
hello kinematics, first i want to state that i highly respect your knowledge in the game mechanics, thats something im not even half as good as you are, thats why i need your help, i was going to start a thread on the puppetmaster forums but then i thougth it migth spawn useless drama, so i came to you on PM first, ok to the issue at hand:

as it stands, im having a lot of trouble believing that monk is MILES away from pup as a damage dealer, im hearing great monks on my server saying that unless a monk has verethragna it can't compare to a burattinaios puppetmaster, wich i find to be quite the case, this weapon is even more broken that what hagun was for samurai back in the day (10tp a tick for your automaton is insane), but then again, when ever i hit forums, and someone speaks about monk and puppetmaster on the same sentence, everyone gets really jumpy and starts saying monk is miles away from pup on the damage dealer side, and i just simply dont think that is nearly as true as everyone seems to believe. so im asking what do you think on the matter, would you consider that pup as it stands now, is a top tier damage dealer? i remember you once crunched some numbers but burattinaios wasn't on the picture then, and i think its a pretty big deal now.

thanks for your time man.

Regards

Kayn
server: Titan


There are a whole host of factors that complicate comparing mnk with pup.

Pup has an innate advantage weaponskill-wise. Stringing Pummel is basically right on par with Victory Smite, so a mnk is restricted to one of two weapons to reach that, while a pup can have that at any time. Smite is really what puts mnk back up in the massively heavy DD category, so the disadvantage for pup is mostly relegated to the TP phase and gear selection.

The damage the puppet puts out is completely uncategorized in terms of modelling. Yes, impressive 5k nukes from the mage bot, etc, etc, but there's no real math to get a good DPS value out of it. I've seen several parses where, as the master really steps up their game, the puppet ends up doing maybe 20% of the master's damage. Of course that was pre-Burattinaios.

Plus, maintaining the bot is a notable disanvantage for the pup, since you have to constantly use JAs (deploy and maneuvers) that eat up 2 seconds of your time. Maintaining the puppet can end up chipping off about 20% of the master's DPS.


So, in a sort of napkin-math comparison:

Pup starts off about even with mnk on weaponskill.

Mnk is about 18% ahead on melee DOT due to MA trait differences.

Mnk gets another ~15% melee DOT from kick attacks (full +2 set).

Mnk has an unknown advantage strictly due to gear and skill, but going to put it arbitrarily at 15%.

Overall advantage pre-puppet, for mnk: ~40%.

Adding in the puppet needs to compensate both for the inherent time lost to maintain it (~20%), but also the 40% edge mnk has, for pup to catch up. To manage that, the puppet needs to be doing about 75% of the master's damage.

I don't know whether the puppet can do that, but if the Burattinaios bring the puppet up to that level, then yes, overall pup should be about on par with mnk in terms of pure damage output. In terms of utility, though, they of course cover vastly different areas (mnk for tanking and better proc coverage, pup in terms of puppet flexibility).
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as you can see, im not new around here, and no, you are not the only one that has felt that way,
we all have, but if you are going to just dismiss experienced people's opinions on numbers they have crunched before (talking about Jinte here) and probably to tired to do it all again just to answer you, I'm sorry man but you are doing it wrong. I hope that what kine wrote at least gives you some insight and you can come up with your own conclusions whether "you'll leave a ls pup behind or not." truth is, a monk is better than a pup on a zerg, period, if you want optimal you'll take a monk, if you don't care about the best performance take which ever, and if you really really completely need to know for how much a mnk beats a pup on a zerg, learn to math yourself mate.
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#75 Feb 15 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
28 posts
Sorry, but if anyone is "doing it wrong", its you. Posting outdated opinions about the state of pup vs mnk from years ago when gear selection between them was vastly different then it is now, with a handful of "napkin math" numbers does nothing to further this thread. I don't care about the history of pup vs mnk, I am only interested in how they compare now. Its great that your opinion hasn't changed since pup was released. Apparently you feel that pup always did less damage then monk in high haste environments and that it always will. That is exactly the kind of opinion I couldn't care less to read about. You may be right, you may not, but all that those of us that are serious about doing high-end content care about are hard numbers. When you can't provide that, and instead can only regurgitate posts from years ago and pass them off as still relevant, well, don't wonder why I choose to hold out for more relevant information.

I'll be the first to admit, I have no idea how I would begin sim'ing pup and monk damage, which is exactly why I am here. Last I checked, I didn't need your permission to post in a pup thread, looking for information on pup. I am not going to "learn math [myself] mate", any more then you will, because this is a tough problem with a lot of variables to consider and I don't mind admitting that is well outside what I could come up with an answer for. However, that is not going to stop me from posting asking for more information. If someone is able to come up with an answer and further the thread, thats amazing and helps pup out a lot one way or another; either by providing evidence that they should be allowed in a group as they are only slightly behind other dd's or by proving that the pup needs to gear up monk or a better DD job because their is such a large difference in damage it is reducing the capability of the whole group. Either conclusion helps pup. Blindly holding on to outdated analysis and trying to pass it off as current does nothing but hurt pup. So whether you think I should post here or not, or whether I need to "learn to math" (really kid?), I couldn't care less. My only response to you is its better to leave this thread to the people with something useful to contribute to it.
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