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#1 Aug 18 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Source JP thread

Google English version

Cooldown lvl 95
Reduces burden? No info on duration (probably instant?) or recast time.

More info on the English official threads this evening.
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#2 Aug 18 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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SelkaSeraph wrote:
Source JP thread

Google English version

Cooldown lvl 95
Reduces burden? No info on duration (probably instant?) or recast time.

More info on the English official threads this evening.
Could be anything really. Could be something as stupid as "Your next manuever will grant no burden (10 min recast)." At this point, we don't even know if it's a job ability or a trait.

Though that "Moksha" bit at the end looks promising, looking at the loltranslation, it looks like it might be something that affects attachments. Maybe something that affects elemental capacity, or something that boosts certain attachments based on frame (wishful thinking, I know.)

I guess we'll know at ~7PM, or when someone that can read it shows up...


GoogleTranslate wrote:
Cooldown Lv95
are taking to reduce the load on the automaton.
The characteristics of the automaton, "Moksha" Add

Moksha is being added as a property about the future, we also believe that the attachment to add more. Also since the last answer, please let it be follow the impression that little misunderstanding. Puppetmaster as an adjustment, adjustment of the attachment are considered high priority and importance. ("Please review the attachment of" all the feedback and **** do just that.) , but this does not mean that everything just to cover the additional attachments and is not adjusted. Placed on the spindle as a part of the current adjustment only, and is caught would appreciate any time we can do about the rest of the study. So thank you to continue.
More pointless speculation, because I'm bored:

Judging by the tone of the post, it seems to be about adjusting the way attachments work, thus "reduce the load on the automaton" could refer to attachments' elemental requirement being lowered. Maybe a job trait that basically makes all attachments "-1 elemental slot required."

Something that lets us use more attachments at a time, in some sense, is going to be my guess.

EDIT: More random speculation

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 3:04pm by KodoReturns
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#3 Aug 18 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmm, something to look forward to.
Overload is hardly an issue these days so itll be pretty dissapointing if we end up with an ability to help prevent something most of us rarely see.
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#4 Aug 18 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
I'm personally very interested in this "Moksha" JA/trait.

The term tickled something in my memory so i went and looked it up.


Moksha
Wiki wrote:
In Hindu religion, moksha (Sanskrit: मोक्ष mokṣa) or mukti (Sanskrit: मुक्ति), literally "release" (both from a root muc "to let loose, let go"), is the liberation from samsara and the concomitant suffering involved in being subject to the cycle of repeated death and reincarnation.



As i have no idea whats SE's plans are, just throwing this out, but i'm getting a hunch it may have something that will buff/enhance Deus Ex Automata. How? Again no clue, i'm not SE.

SE loves to draw from the different mythologies/belief systems of the real world. I am really a bit amped to see if 1) this makes it into the game and 2) if so, how SE's take on the concept of Moksha will translate ingame.
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#5 Aug 18 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Default
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It looks like cooldown is an ability that reduces the overload/burden on your automaton,

aka you Activate, cooldown, ice ice (baby) ice, no risk of overload or need to wait 2 minutes for activate burden to wear off.


Moksha looks like a job trait added to the pets, its hindu for release, and is in regards to 'release from the circle of life/death' which is pretty appropriate. I read the statement after it is more along the lines of using attachments to add more moksha? Maybe something like, you can release at 95% hp and it acts like 100% hp. Then with attachments you can reduce it even futher to 90/80/75%?

The rest is them talking about not just focusing on attachments to fix the job, but attachment balance and new attachments are considered priority/important.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 5:54pm by dustinfoley
#6 Aug 18 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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wow total let down

moksha is = subtle blow
#7 Aug 18 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Salaadin wrote:
Hmmm, something to look forward to.
Overload is hardly an issue these days so itll be pretty dissapointing if we end up with an ability to help prevent something most of us rarely see.


Exactly. What's the point? We have enough tools already to control overload. Heck, activate, Icex3 is totally safe with AF3+2, AF1 hands, collar. Having Kenkonken would make this totally ridiculous. I'm not complaining, mind you, as it was discussed many times here, this is how maneuvers should have worked from the very beginning. Overload has always been an unnecessary characteristic of maneuvers.
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#8 Aug 18 2011 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
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to put kenkonken in perspective...if you have the level 90 version its believed to be 20 less delay total then a lvl 90 monk with no - to MA.

Add in the immunity to overload and its even more redonkulous.

Lets just say, its on my mog bonanza list cause at 99 im betting it gives you identical delay as a 99 monk just to make them all die a little inside.
#9 Aug 18 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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Official Translation(even though its mostly covered already) + Interesting tidbit.
Camate wrote:

Based on everyone’s feedback, we will be making the below adjustments during the upcoming version update.


Cool down* Lv95
Reduces the overload on automatons.

Adding Subtle **** trait to automatons.

While we are adding Subtle blow in the form of a job trait, in the future we will also be adding attachments that add this as well.

Also, I got the feeling there were some misunderstandings in regards to the feedback given previously, so I’d like to follow up on that.

We feel that it is of extremely high importance to adjust automaton attachments. We received a lot of feedback saying “Revamp all attachments.” This is pretty much going to take place.

However, just adjusting/adding attachments doesn’t mean that it will cover everything. We’d appreciate it if you took this as us putting all of our focus on first adjusting the current attachments and then we will be looking into other aspects as well.

(*Please note that names and descriptions are under development and are subject to change)

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11567-ATTN-Community-Reps-Dev-Team-PUPs-of-Vanadiel-DEMAND-a-response-on-Automaton-A.I.!?p=172896&viewfull=1#post172896
#10 Aug 18 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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SE dev climbing out of bed in the morning saying to themself, "How can I **** off pups today? How about I pretend to read what they feel like they need changed, and instead of doing all that, we just give them things they don't need at all." /chuckles to self "haha lulpup"
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#11 Aug 18 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Default
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so um yeah understand the need for subtle blow but really? Unless the attachment adds 10% haste/snapshot I dont see me ever replacing a current attachment with it.


Although the fact they are reviewing all attachments finally is somewhat hopeful.

/punt tactical processor & scanner
#12 Aug 18 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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They're adding Subtle Blow to automatons as a a trait and they're considering also adding an attachment that further increases it. Cooldown looks like it reduces the burden on an Automaton after it overloads or so.

Posts goes on to talk about how they're last post created a bit of misconceptions and they wanted to clear it up. They consider adjusting attachments to be of the highest priority (they received a lot of views that all attachments should be looked at, and that's what they're doing). However, at the current time, they're considering a certain portion of the attachments as part of the main readjustments. The other ones will be considered at a later time and as the situation calls.

That should be what it says.
#13 Aug 18 2011 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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Shouta look above.
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#14 Aug 19 2011 at 12:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Wow that is a big-ish send up for not alot. They coulda just saved this til the day of the update.

Cooldown looks decent....if you were lvling up to cap the old-fashioned way. At 90 with AF3 +2 body, i honestly can't remember the last time i overloaded. And as no one is likely to be lvling the old way anytime soon, kinda seems a bit late in the job's life to be adding this. So unless SE is planning a change to the difficulty of creating an overload(which i could see them doing. I mean hey, why address current issues you don't want to touch when you can just invent new issues and roll out a fix at the same time?), don't see myself using Cooldown much when its added.

And Moksha...sorry but after hearing they planned to slap native subtle blow on PUP(which shoulda been done day 1 back in '06) and give it a snazzy new name....my underwhelment lvl rose to lvl 3-AKA "Might as well told me nothing at all" lvl.
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#15 Aug 19 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
And Moksha...sorry but after hearing they planned to slap native subtle blow on PUP(which shoulda been done day 1 back in '06) and give it a snazzy new name....my underwhelment lvl rose to lvl 3-AKA "Might as well told me nothing at all" lvl.


Uhh, pretty sure that one's more your fault for reading too much into press releases in a language you don't understand? I'm lead to believe that's just what subtle blow is called in the jp version. There's no mention of any 'Moksha' in the english language release.

Quote:
So unless SE is planning a change to the difficulty of creating an overload(which i could see them doing. I mean hey, why address current issues you don't want to touch when you can just invent new issues and roll out a fix at the same time?)


They LOVE doing that to drk. 'Yay, releasing aspir 2. What? They say they already have enough mp on anything that's aspirable and just need a way to recover mp vs mobs that don't have mp? $%^# them, let's nerf aspir.'
Not to mention 'Okay, let's give them af3 hands that enhance, uhh, absorb tp, sure. What? That's already potent enough and only dependant on the mob having tp, so they aren't excited? NERF.'
#16 Aug 19 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Cooldown is, as mentioned, pretty underwhelming, but at least I welcome the Subtle Blow effect. Some times, on certain NMS, and specially solo, the extra TP fed by the automaton is pretty noticeable. A bit less TP moves spammage is nice.
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#17 Aug 19 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Cooldown.. LAME

Subtleblow.. Yawn

This is just stuff that doesnt do anything for me. Cooldown may of been a better idea at level 20 then level 95 or whatever it is. I rarely overloaded at 75...and at 90 I havent overloaded. So much reduce overload gear and yea... Bunch of crap... yawn..

Subtleblow.. um... i rather see something more exciting.. unless they are going to give me more new stuff to kill, this is lame too...

I am highly dissapointed by what they announced.
#18 Aug 19 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Cooldown (Lv. 95)
Reduces the strain on your automaton.

Can we stop assuming that we understand for sure what Cooldown does already? The text really isn't that clear. It's certainly possible that it simply reduces overload burden, which would indeed be underwhelming, but I'd hardly trust JA description text alone as a definitive statement. We should all know that VERY well by now with PUP (e.g. look at Animators). "Strain" and "burden" as we tend to use them are also community-coined terms, not anything official from S-E. Who knows what S-E sees this as meaning.

Maybe it wipes out an overload altogether once you've already overloaded (kinda like a COR's Fold), which would be of some use when spamming maneuvers or off a fresh Activate. Maybe "reduces the strain" means it has some other effect on the puppet instead of/in addition to reducing overload. Maybe it has some effect on attachments (e.g. allows faster recast of the attachment-related automaton abilities on hidden timers).

I'd like to understand it a little better before I come in saying definitively whether it's good/bad/irrelevant.

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:55pm by Anza
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#19 Aug 19 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:


I'd like to understand it a little better before I come in saying definitively whether it's good/bad/irrelevant.



It's like any other update. Sometimes people are right, sometimes they are wrong.

RDM whining about how awful Composure will be.

SMN whining that Elemental Siphon is probably going to be trash.

BRD whining about Critical Defense Bonus (the best thing they ever received!)

It may suck. It may be good. It may be meh. You can speculate on what it's going to do.

However, I agree completely with Anza on this one. There isn't much of a point whining about or praising something until you actually see what it does and try it yourself.
#20 Aug 19 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the bigger let down anza, is when you see bst getting new pets (which is expected) and an ability that makes their pets stronger.

And we get subtle blow? Its like saying "pup is already so godly this is the only thing we could do without having to give paladins a sword made from shark scales that absorbs chakra and shoots laser beams from its eyes".


You have to admit though, as currently listed, cool down is a worthless ability. Now if it does something completly different then whats listed (not uncommon), then awesome, but until then I will do the same thing i did during the burt nerf. Assume the worst and not be zomg freaked out like everyone else when it really is as bad as I had figured it would be.


Also, can ninja's learn Kancho (1000 years of pain) at 99, k thanks...
#21 Aug 19 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
VonCrown wrote:
Quote:
And Moksha...sorry but after hearing they planned to slap native subtle blow on PUP(which shoulda been done day 1 back in '06) and give it a snazzy new name....my underwhelment lvl rose to lvl 3-AKA "Might as well told me nothing at all" lvl.


1-Uhh, pretty sure that one's more your fault for reading too much into press releases in a language you don't understand? I'm lead to believe that's just what subtle blow is called in the jp version. There's no mention of any 'Moksha' in the english language release.

Quote:
So unless SE is planning a change to the difficulty of creating an overload(which i could see them doing. I mean hey, why address current issues you don't want to touch when you can just invent new issues and roll out a fix at the same time?)


2-They LOVE doing that to drk. 'Yay, releasing aspir 2. What? They say they already have enough mp on anything that's aspirable and just need a way to recover mp vs mobs that don't have mp? $%^# them, let's nerf aspir.'
Not to mention 'Okay, let's give them af3 hands that enhance, uhh, absorb tp, sure. What? That's already potent enough and only dependant on the mob having tp, so they aren't excited? NERF.'



@1 Watch your tone, first off. When i saw the word moksha i had a good idea it wasn't japanese, which led me to believe that the JA/trait may have some new effect and the name might be a clue as to what that effect might be. That SE is again trying to pass off an old ability under a new, cooler name is the only thing at fault here. They had a chance to shine and in classic SE form, looks like they are gonna blow it.

Now, not saying that moksha is not a japanese word. I don't know japanese, as such i can't truly say. If it is however, someone please enlighten me as to its exact meaning-i'd love to know.


@2 I happen to be a DRK too and love that job, but you wanna whine about it-please do it over in the DRK forum. I made the last statement because SE has used that old business strat before, on jobs across the board, and are implementing it again now with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Was more dissappointed in SE this time around than shocked or surprised they would do such a thing.
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#22 Aug 20 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I could be wrong, but my point is I -think- subtle blow is already called Moksha in the japanese version of the game. Overall, I'm just saying don't get hyped up just because google translate doesn't know what a word is, that doesn't guarantee it to be a whole new thing, it may well be an existing term in the context of the game. Game terms aren't universal across different languages, 'subtle blow' may not be called 'subtle blow' (and by this I mean those words translated in the most literal way possible) in the japanese version.

As to the second point, that was me providing supporting evidence to what you said. I'm pretty sure that even though this is the pup forum, we are still allowed to ever mention any other jobs at all. Since of the jobs I personally play, drk is the job that that has specifically happened to, that was the evidence I could provide. If they at other times did similar things (which I don't doubt), I would have added those as well, were I a member of those jobs active in the community at the time it was released.
#23 Aug 20 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
I think the bigger let down anza, is when you see bst getting new pets (which is expected) and an ability that makes their pets stronger.


Well, PUP already got a boost in the July mini-update with the 4 new attachments, and most jobs got nothing in that minor update. We'll get some other things too - Thunder V comes to mind, maybe more new attachments, we may start seeing attachment adjustments or pet defense buffs that S-E has been hinting at... I'm not getting overly excited (either positive or negative) until I actually see how this stuff works though and find out what we actually end up getting.

You also don't know if the new BST pets are even any good, so why be jealous of them already? Maybe the new slug sucks and people will still stick to Nazuna and Dipper Yuly. Wouldn't be the first time an addition was underwhelming.

And while Subtle Blow isn't OMGamazing!, one thing a lot of people are discounting is that if VE actually does continue to get buffed up as a tank, it's a VERY nice trait to have for soloing stuff with the automaton tanking. I'd rather have it than not, even if it's relatively minor.

Quote:
You have to admit though, as currently listed, cool down is a worthless ability.


As listed, I don't truly know what the **** it does. I'm quite sure you of all people understand that S-E's JA/item description text doesn't always tell the whole story - like the Animator debates I've seen you involved in on the official forum.

It honestly wouldn't shock me if "reduces the strain on your automaton" could be a way of saying your pet is buffed in some other way. Say, a 5min JA granting 2min JA haste or att/acc to the automaton. By reducing the "strain" on your pet it performs better.

Or maybe it's some sort of "mini-Overdrive"? After using the JA, the automaton will be immune from overloading on the element of the next maneuver used for 1min AND get enhanced effects from that maneuver (increasing potency of attachments or adding a greater amount of the stat associated with the element).

It also wouldn't shock me if it's simply something related to overloading - reducing "burden" accumulation, wiping out all accumulated burden, removing an already triggered overload, etc. But I really don't know at this point, and I'm not going to get too worked up about it until we actually get to play around with this new ability.

Edited, Aug 20th 2011 2:32pm by Anza
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#24 Aug 20 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, we've reached a new era in the PUP forum. Rated down for not assuming the worst about update notes.

This always used to be the place where PUPs were WAAAAAY too overenthusiastic about how awesome even the most minor change was going to make the job, and I (among others) would try to encourage people to be more realistic. Now when I'm taking a wait and see approach and I'm not up in arms about a somewhat vaguely described new JA and Subtle Blow... people don't like that?

Maybe we've gotten a bit too spoiled in the past 1.5 years or so... different vibe than when the job truly had issues and people were clinging to hope that there would be real improvement (and seeing it even where it didn't exist). Now PUP is extremely effective and it's like the forum is drunk with power and wanting MORE MORE MORE.
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#25 Aug 20 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Anza wrote:
Wow, we've reached a new era in the PUP forum. Rated down for not assuming the worst about update notes.

This always used to be the place where PUPs were WAAAAAY too overenthusiastic about how awesome even the most minor change was going to make the job, and I (among others) would try to encourage people to be more realistic. Now when I'm taking a wait and see approach and I'm not up in arms about a somewhat vaguely described new JA and Subtle Blow... people don't like that?

Maybe we've gotten a bit too spoiled in the past 1.5 years or so... different vibe than when the job truly had issues and people were clinging to hope that there would be real improvement (and seeing it even where it didn't exist). Now PUP is extremely effective and it's like the forum is drunk with power and wanting MORE MORE MORE.


Not just the PUP forum Anza.
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#26 Aug 20 2011 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:
Wow, we've reached a new era in the PUP forum. Rated down for not assuming the worst about update notes.
Well, do keep in mind that Camate did post the literal translation of the JP wording in the PUP forum, and it specifically mentions "overload."

Surely you can see how it may be hard to remain optimistic about the job ability.

There is still a chance that it might be something good, and just a bad choice of wording, but it's a bit unlikely.
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#27 Aug 20 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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ITU: Pup gets another job ability at a ridiculously high level that should really be added at half of the level it's been made available, if not even lower; due mostly to people whining about maneuvers being inconvenient.
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#28 Aug 20 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
Anza wrote:
dustinfoley wrote:
I think the bigger let down anza, is when you see bst getting new pets (which is expected) and an ability that makes their pets stronger.


Well, PUP already got a boost in the July mini-update with the 4 new attachments, and most jobs got nothing in that minor update. We'll get some other things too - Thunder V comes to mind, maybe more new attachments, we may start seeing attachment adjustments or pet defense buffs that S-E has been hinting at... I'm not getting overly excited (either positive or negative) until I actually see how this stuff works though and find out what we actually end up getting.

You also don't know if the new BST pets are even any good, so why be jealous of them already? Maybe the new slug sucks and people will still stick to Nazuna and Dipper Yuly. Wouldn't be the first time an addition was underwhelming.

And while Subtle Blow isn't OMGamazing!, one thing a lot of people are discounting is that if VE actually does continue to get buffed up as a tank, it's a VERY nice trait to have for soloing stuff with the automaton tanking. I'd rather have it than not, even if it's relatively minor.

Quote:
You have to admit though, as currently listed, cool down is a worthless ability.


As listed, I don't truly know what the **** it does. I'm quite sure you of all people understand that S-E's JA/item description text doesn't always tell the whole story - like the Animator debates I've seen you involved in on the official forum.

It honestly wouldn't shock me if "reduces the strain on your automaton" could be a way of saying your pet is buffed in some other way. Say, a 5min JA granting 2min JA haste or att/acc to the automaton. By reducing the "strain" on your pet it performs better.

Or maybe it's some sort of "mini-Overdrive"? After using the JA, the automaton will be immune from overloading on the element of the next maneuver used for 1min AND get enhanced effects from that maneuver (increasing potency of attachments or adding a greater amount of the stat associated with the element).

It also wouldn't shock me if it's simply something related to overloading - reducing "burden" accumulation, wiping out all accumulated burden, removing an already triggered overload, etc. But I really don't know at this point, and I'm not going to get too worked up about it until we actually get to play around with this new ability.

Edited, Aug 20th 2011 2:32pm by Anza


To quote one of my favorite lines from couplings:

"Well I am angry, making sense just gets in the way."
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#29 Aug 20 2011 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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Anza, I feel your pain. I got rated down because I made a joke about how SE really doesn't care about pup.
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#30 Aug 21 2011 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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KodoReturns wrote:
Well, do keep in mind that Camate did post the literal translation of the JP wording in the PUP forum, and it specifically mentions "overload."

Surely you can see how it may be hard to remain optimistic about the job ability


I do see that it's certainly a reasonable possibility that this JA is lame. Maybe even the most likely possibility. I'm just saying not assume that it's a certainty. I don't care what the translation of the JA description is in ANY region - I have learned not to trust S-E item/ability descriptions until we see how they're actually used.

Annalise gave the good examples of RDMs whining about Composure and SMNs complaining about Elemental Siphon when those were initially announced, I seem to remember NIN's complaining about Yurin being lame, and all of those turned out well. A lot of CORs complained about the new Phantom Roll XI bonus not realizing at all that it can completely revolutionize the style of play (you can get guaranteed XIs on every roll now if you allocate more time to buffing than to adding mediocre DD). Maybe spiritreaverdiabolos is right... it's not just PUP, everyone has this entitled attitude now. PUP used to be a little different though, for good and bad. /sniff maybe we're not gonna be the unique little snowflakes any more XD

Just keep in mind that we've yet to actually USE this ability and maybe, just maybe, it's not as bad as everyone seems to be assuming as a certainty. Perhaps it removes overloading for 20 minutes, allowing you to go ice maneuver crazy when nuking and forget about the Condenser (yes, you can still overload doing that). Maybe it prevents overload and also buffs the pet in some other way. Maybe it does something to maneuver duration like so many people have been grumbling about.

Or Cooldown could be awful and just lower maneuver burden accumulation. Can we at least wait to use it before we **** too much though?
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