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What does PUP do the best at?Follow

#1 Jun 23 2011 at 7:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was asked this question the other day, and I scrambled to think of an answer. There are many thing a pup can do well even amazing. I just wanted a brainstorm session so next time, I don't give a half assed answer.
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#2 Jun 24 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Default
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Disappoint
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#3 Jun 24 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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#4 Jun 24 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Make people who don't have it unlocked want to level it!
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#5 Jun 24 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Ruby lights.
#6 Jun 24 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Annalise wrote:
Ruby lights.


this.
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#7 Jun 24 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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Ruby lights it is. Thanks guys! :).
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#8 Jun 24 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cam, I answered this question in the LS before, you should listen more >:|

"What does PUP do best" is a flawed question that people used to insult PUP, it's not specific enough to be answered well by most jobs. "Best" meaning skill-wise? or a specific party role? or situational? These all have different answers.

The "unique hook" designed for PUP is the customizable pet, with it's own AI, so we don't have to use Blood Pacts or use a specific subjob to trigger breaths. PUP is designed to be able to fill the master's role as DD, and at the same time have a WHM pet that can pick up some healing slack, or a durable pet that can voke and take pressure off of the tank. In all fairness though, that unique hook was half-assed by SE, and doesn't work anywhere near how they planned for it to, which is why PUP has needed so many fixes from day one.

Outside of specific situations like "soloing 8-3" or "easily ditching most aggro" There isn't a quick answer to what PUPs do best, but the same can be said of most jobs. Nearly every class has competition at their job, and there a players of every job that will swear on a stack of bibles that they do it best.
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#9 Jun 25 2011 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
KodoReturns wrote:
Cam, I answered this question in the LS before, you should listen more >:|

"What does PUP do best" is a flawed question that people used to insult PUP, it's not specific enough to be answered well by most jobs. "Best" meaning skill-wise? or a specific party role? or situational? These all have different answers.

The "unique hook" designed for PUP is the customizable pet, with it's own AI, so we don't have to use Blood Pacts or use a specific subjob to trigger breaths. PUP is designed to be able to fill the master's role as DD, and at the same time have a WHM pet that can pick up some healing slack, or a durable pet that can voke and take pressure off of the tank. In all fairness though, that unique hook was half-assed by SE, and doesn't work anywhere near how they planned for it to, which is why PUP has needed so many fixes from day one.

Outside of specific situations like "soloing 8-3" or "easily ditching most aggro" There isn't a quick answer to what PUPs do best, but the same can be said of most jobs. Nearly every class has competition at their job, and there a players of every job that will swear on a stack of bibles that they do it best.


in all seriousness, i can with all confidence, answer that question. based on the state at wich the job is at right now.

Deal damage. its what we do best period.

if you are asking "compared to other jobs?" then you might need to be a tad more specific :P
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#10 Jun 25 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kodi I was listening when you had said that, I was just curious on everyone's idea.

Kayn I'll take it!
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#11 Jun 25 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd have to say we surprise and wow people best. Whether it's with our hateless cures, massive nukes, awesome outfits, or ability to tank mobs that otherwise tear an alliance to shreds PUP is awesome at surprising people.
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#12 Jun 26 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Outside of specific situations like "soloing 8-3" or "easily ditching most aggro" There isn't a quick answer to what PUPs do best, but the same can be said of most jobs. Nearly every class has competition at their job, and there a players of every job that will swear on a stack of bibles that they do it best.


I don't think you can really apply "easily ditching most aggro" anymore with recent changes...

Quote:
in all seriousness, i can with all confidence, answer that question. based on the state at wich the job is at right now.

Deal damage. its what we do best period.

if you are asking "compared to other jobs?" then you might need to be a tad more specific :P


Though I jokingly replied with 'ruby lights', I have to agree that 'deal damage' is where my thoughts lie too.
#13 Jun 26 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Annalise wrote:
I don't think you can really apply "easily ditching most aggro" anymore with recent changes...


Apparently you're unaware that we can still ditch aggro the same way we always could, we just can't do it with puppet abilities anymore, has to be a spell so we can use Retrieve before the spell goes off.

I escaped Iratham's clutches the other day with Deploy > Retrieve > (puppet casts Silence) > Deactivate. Still works perfectly.

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#14 Jun 26 2011 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
KodoReturns wrote:
Annalise wrote:
I don't think you can really apply "easily ditching most aggro" anymore with recent changes...


Apparently you're unaware that we can still ditch aggro the same way we always could, we just can't do it with puppet abilities anymore, has to be a spell so we can use Retrieve before the spell goes off.

I escaped Iratham's clutches the other day with Deploy > Retrieve > (puppet casts Silence) > Deactivate. Still works perfectly.



Just wanted to speak on this. Just now was in Sea-the garden to be specific-was taking another PUP along with me to get that map.

Every time we were close to an elevator, i would just aggro w/e the last mob between us and the elevator was and when i had drug it far enough away from its area, Vent > Deactivate = bye-bye mob. This maybe separate from the whole hateless nukes deal(might not, who knows?) but it was definitely like i have been doing for quite a while.

So yeah, i agree with the post i quoted. In particular the bolded bit.
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#15 Jun 28 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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KaynofTitan wrote:
in all seriousness, i can with all confidence, answer that question. based on the state at wich the job is at right now.

Deal damage. its what we do best period.

if you are asking "compared to other jobs?" then you might need to be a tad more specific :P


Kayn is absolutely correct. PUP is at its best as a DD, and it will beat most other DDs with similar quality gear/skill. People STILL can't seem to grasp that PUP's total DD contribution is the sum of the master's damage AND the puppet's damage though.

Master DD on its own is nothing to scoff at, even if it's not on par with a MNK's higher base DMG, extra DD abilities, and some extra gear:
- PUP has strong WS (Stringing Pummel makes non-Empyrean MNKs jealous)
- Fast 2-fisted attack rate means lots of crits in Abyssea
- We no longer have the Acc deficiency that plagued the job in the pre-2010 era (thanks to a mix of better gear, H2H skill increase in 2010, and Acc being less of a concern in general in 90cap era with Atma/Cruor Buffs in Abyssea, and level correction outside)
- We no longer have gear issues to the extent we used to. Empyrean set is really good stuff, we're generally on the same other gear as jobs like MNK and NIN. MNK used to have Destroyers while PUP was stuck with Wagh/Hades. Now both have the same options like Verethragna, Taipan Fangs +2, etc.

Where you end up beating other DD jobs is once you add in the big time addition of automaton DD. Our "versatility" is through the fact that we can focus on strong physical OR magical DD to supplement the master. Choose strong Tier V nukes with Spiritreaver, or beastly WS along with Barrage and some melee/ranged DoT with Sharpshot. THAT is how PUP is versatile, not in the sense that some people want to say PUP is decent at several things but not great in any one - simply wrong, we ARE great in one area. Damage through combined efforts of master+puppet.

PUP does have downsides - not a good tank, not a good puller, has to rely on Dagger for Amber light and Red procs in Abyssea, automaton is not as versatile magic-wise as a true BLM (can't Sleep and Stun, for instance) even if we do have strong magic from the damage perspective.

The upside is raw damage. Just have to remind the idiots that the puppet is there too.
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#16 Jun 28 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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1. ADAPTING

Adjustable
There are very, very few situations a well-attached, well-equipped, and skill-capped puppetmaster cannot thrive in. With the advent of {Deus Ex + Sharpshot Body + Valoredge Head} there is almost no situation where a puppetmaster cannot be a major force as this has finally slayed our great dragon: AoE damage situations.


Hate management
Puppetmaster has always had, in my opinion, the best hate management in the game. With Deus Ex we have gone from powerhouse to flat overpowered. It really is what we are overpowered at. What used to be contolled with split damage (and therefore hate) generation, shadows and vent can now be controlled with split damage, shadows, vent, and Deus Ex. As in, dump the hate on the puppet and yank it back to life.


Weak party proof
If you're a DD with a lousy tank or healer, you die. If you're a tank with a lousy healer or a healer with a lousy tank, you die. If you're a pup with a lousy healer or tank, you bring out the whm puppet. And if they argue about it hurting your dps, just say "dead = zero dps".


Multiple boss fight tactics
How many jobs can physical DD up close, physical DD kite, magical DD from a stationary position with ZERO hate, magical DD hateless nuke kite (deploy, retrieve, run behind mob, deactivate, activate), and cast Cure VI infinitely with absolutely no hate? One.


2. CONCEPT

The Look, The Concept
What's scary? A ranger, a warrior, a samurai? Or, maybe, a psychotic court jester with a penchant for murder... followed my a magical, adjustable puppet with razor sharp blades, needle-pointed bolts, and evil spells... and even if you somehow manage to hit the elusive puppetmaster the puppet will just heal them and they'll never stop coming and hunting and chasing and punching and laughing always laughing....

Edited, Jun 28th 2011 3:37pm by Thydonon
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#17 Jun 29 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thydonon wrote:
The Look, The Concept
What's scary? A ranger, a warrior, a samurai? Or, maybe, a psychotic court jester with a penchant for murder... followed my a magical, adjustable puppet with razor sharp blades, needle-pointed bolts, and evil spells... and even if you somehow manage to hit the elusive puppetmaster the puppet will just heal them and they'll never stop coming and hunting and chasing and punching and laughing always laughing....


Love your post, but this in particular is quote worthy Smiley: nod

I'd use it as a signature, but don't want to give PUP preference over my other jobs (well, mainly SCH).
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#18 Jun 29 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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High damage with low agro.

Since our damage is split between us and a pet, we are less likely to peel off a tank.

Sure a monk can churn out 5-6k VS, but we can follow our pets 3-4k ws with our own 4.5-5.5k WS and add a light/dark on for almost 3x the damage as the monk.
#19 Jul 12 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Default
dustinfoley wrote:
High damage with low agro.

Since our damage is split between us and a pet, we are less likely to peel off a tank.

Sure a monk can churn out 5-6k VS, but we can follow our pets 3-4k ws with our own 4.5-5.5k WS and add a light/dark on for almost 3x the damage as the monk.


What is this "tank" you speak of? I think I read a book about that once, or maybe it was just Playboy on an airplane.





I also find the word "split" to be misleading, they are two separate DDing entities with their own hate. What is this "high damage with low agro" sh*t too? What does that even mean? If we preform a 3k weapon skill we do not have any less chance of pulling hate (discounting enmity gear or merits) than someone else who does the same.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 3:30pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#20 Jul 12 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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What he means is that we can do a 3k (pet) and a 5k(us) weapon skill and still have less hate than the mnk who just did a 6k. Therefore is lower enmity, not to mention ventriloquy. No need for an attitude.
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#21 Jul 12 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Default
Camwin wrote:
What he means is that we can do a 3k (pet) and a 5k(us) weapon skill and still have less hate than the mnk who just did a 6k. Therefore is lower enmity, not to mention ventriloquy. No need for an attitude.


Attitude?! :O

EDIT: There are a few things wrong with that hate idea too.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 4:57pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#22 Jul 12 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Obvious troll is obvious... and obviouslly not a real pup.

#23 Jul 12 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Default
dustinfoley wrote:
Obvious troll is obvious... and obviouslly not a real pup.



Really disappointing how overused that is.

Attitude? Troll.

Disagrees? Troll.

I think people have forgotten what actual trolling is or at least how to tell the difference.
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#24 Jul 12 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I believe dustin is referring to the tank as any job that retains hate in majority of the fights. I don't think he's referring to nin or pld.

The part he mentioned split hate, he means it in this sense. Lets look at MNK WAR and PUP.

PUP Potential
Puppetmaster 60
Automaton 40

MNK Potential
Monk 100

WAR Potential
Warrior 100

Please don't quote percentages, this is merely for demonstration purposes. Assuming each job is performing at its optimum, equally geared, and each person's intent is to deal as much damage as they possibly can. Other than spike damage, you'll most likely lose hate along the way to the Monk or War, this usually only happens on mobs that last longer than today's EXP mobs, any longer fight. Compounded by the use of maneuvers that will slowly eat away at your full potential.

In practice if I'm playing with someone who is equally geared and a great dd, I generally won't hold hate for too long after a WS, same goes for my automaton. People are gonna come out of the woodwork claiming they're holding hate against DD's doing 6-9k Empy ws's i bet -.- . Anyway, this is a good thing, where potential DD is split into 2 units instead of having 1 unless you're regularly tanking.
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#25 Jul 12 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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You can disagree without being an *** hat, but disagreeing while being an *** hat makes you a troll.

If you dont understand what spliting the damage means, you obviouslly arent a real pup. Our damage comes from our pet AND us combined, but the very act of having 2 seperate DD entities means that if my pet does a 4k ws, and i follow with a 5k ws... i have the hate from my 5k ws, not the combined 9k of damage from both ws.

Using the term split isnt missleading at all. The damage our pet does, comes from having the PUP in the party. No pup? No pet damage. Yes we are seperate entities with our own agro (which is a huge advantage), but only looking at the masters DD means you omit a good chunk of what we bring to the table.


**nicely put takawaka



Edited, Jul 12th 2011 5:08pm by dustinfoley
#26 Jul 12 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
takawaka wrote:
I believe dustin is referring to the tank as any job that retains hate in majority of the fights. I don't think he's referring to nin or pld.

The part he mentioned split hate, he means it in this sense. Lets look at MNK WAR and PUP.

PUP Potential
Puppetmaster 60
Automaton 40

MNK Potential
Monk 100

WAR Potential
Warrior 100

Please don't quote percentages, this is merely for demonstration purposes. Assuming each job is performing at its optimum, equally geared, and each person's intent is to deal as much damage as they possibly can. Other than spike damage, you'll most likely lose hate along the way to the Monk or War, this usually only happens on mobs that last longer than today's EXP mobs, any longer fight. Compounded by the use of maneuvers that will slowly eat away at your full potential.

In practice if I'm playing with someone who is equally geared and a great dd, I generally won't hold hate for too long after a WS, same goes for my automaton. People are gonna come out of the woodwork claiming they're holding hate against DD's doing 6-9k Empy ws's i bet -.- . Anyway, this is a good thing, where potential DD is split into 2 units instead of having 1 unless you're regularly tanking.


CE caps quickly in abyssea and if the mob is not dead already (or close to it) then it is down to who ever hits it last. Unless you are sitting there deactivating the puppet to activate and ventriloquy then it really does not matter. That is just not efficient anyway.
Anyone know how often a PUP one of the the only people DDing on something that matters to worry about enmity or make it even worth mentioning? I say this of course because if a PUP is DDing something then generally others are probably on it (DUN F33d TP GUIZ! GET OFF IM SOLOING IT, TP MOVES ARE HARD!!11), and how long does the mob tend live then? That all hurts an argument for or against 6-9k emperian WSs so I can stay in the woodwork there :P and not everyone does something with Emperian WARs or MNK, but regardless the above is still just as valid.

I seem to sub NIN nowadays when I never did back in the day. I can just tank it since PUP can actually evade, and I rather have hate over a WAR anyway wouldn't you? At the current time in the game there is no reason to mention or care about "split" enmity when talking about PUP.
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