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More controversial than the whining about -na problem!Follow

#1 Apr 09 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=19&mid=1263961847187689986&num=33&page=1

After reading this topic on the DNC forum concerning the added "Delay" from using Abilities it kinda got me wondering. To sum it up rather quickly:

Abilities add 120 delay to that combat round, a PUP using 3 maneuvers and 1 Deploy is adding +480 delay a minute. Lazily eyeballing the math that is at least 1 lost round a minute/60 lost rounds a hour. This doesn't even include things like Double Attack and Haste and I'm already starting to seriously wonder- Are maneuvers, at least as far as meripo/xp, worth it? :X
#2 Apr 09 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
Are you seriously asking this question? 6-8 seconds of delay justifies losing 10-15% haste and some amount of accuracy for the puppet? Wow. How about we just stop using a puppet all together? Activate clearly takes 2 seconds to use as well(as does deploy and repair) that is vastly inefficient as well, we could call ourselves lawlmnks and we would be the sh*t. Don't forget to wear your af body at 75.



Edited, Apr 9th 2010 6:18pm by itege
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#3 Apr 09 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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More controversial than the whining about -na problem!


Not really.

More laughable? Yes.

More controversial? no.
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#4 Apr 09 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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First of all, this isn't even tested for non-DNC abilities in that thread.

And all JAs aren't created equal. Good example from the cited thread:
Quote:
There was a discussion about this jig thing a while back: the conclusion is that while normal ability position lock could be disabled with gear changes (COR soloing anyone) they especially locked the DNC movement on JA (probably to avoid using chocobo jig in a kite/holding tool)


As a COR, I know that if you use Quick Draw with a macro that causes you to blink, you will keep running. If you don't change gear, you will freeze in place (and the lag will cause you to get hit if you're kiting something). PUPs should know this too - maneuvers with a gear swap let you keep running, but if you don't swap you'll freeze during the JA animation. DNC can't use such blinking techniques to continue moving - jigs is a great example.

So:

1. We're not even positive PUP JAs introduce this lag.

2. Gear change macros might reduce/eliminate it (AF gloves, which you should use in every maneuver anyway)

3. Even if there is a slight DoT loss, the overall gain from maneuvers more than makes up for it.

That being said, it's possible that this is something to support not spamming maneuvers mid-fight every 10 seconds, and trying to spread out maneuver use to do it at down times and not as often during actual fights.
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#5 Apr 09 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
1. We're not even positive PUP JAs introduce this lag.
I'm pretty sure it does, though to be fair I haven't tested it explicitly.
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#6 Apr 09 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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I believe maneuvers delay your weapon attacks too.

Of course I haven't tested it, but soloing and playing pup almost full time I have a good feeling it does.

With that said, I do try to encorporate proper spacing of maneuvers when possible. Of course, having 3 maneuvers at all times is optimal, but doing things like adding them during downtimes, can eliminate at least 1-2 maneuvers when engaged.
#7 Apr 09 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Default
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Wow this lit up like a Christmas tree, and it seems I've been written off as your common garden variety dumbass, but anyways...

Itege wrote:
Wow. How about we just stop using a puppet all together? Activate clearly takes 2 seconds to use as well(as does deploy and repair) that is vastly inefficient as well, we could call ourselves lawlmnks and we would be the sh*t. Don't forget to wear your af body at 75.


All I did was pose a serious question; however, if you want to spout of nonsense on the internet I suppose you're free to do so. No where did I imply that we should not use the puppet, I am simply questioning whether or not our overall performance in a single aspect of the game could be improved by rethinking the current strategy of Deploy > Maneuver spam.

Spiritreaver wrote:
Not really.

More laughable? Yes.

More controversial? no.


I see you care enough to mock me however you don't care enough to explain why? I don't understand what is "laughable" about what I asked.

Anza wrote:

3. Even if there is a slight DoT loss, the overall gain from maneuvers more than makes up for it.


I can't say I agree with it being a "slight" DoT loss as the "slight" could vary greatly depending on your gear and situation. Take into consideration having usukane, a RDM, and a BRD at Bird camp where you're running 52% Haste and using Hades. 411 base delay, 198 delay after haste, this equates to roughly 2.4 attack rounds a minute or 144 a hour lost due to controlling the pet.

Honestly though even only using more available Haste armor, such as Walara(5%) AF2 Hands(3%) Swift Belt(4%) for 12% total, in the same situation you're looking at losing 2.2 rounds per minute.

Suiryu wrote:
Of course, having 3 maneuvers at all times is optimal, but doing things like adding them during downtimes, can eliminate at least 1-2 maneuvers when engaged.


I fully agree with this.
#8 Apr 09 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see you care enough to mock me however you don't care enough to explain why? I don't understand what is "laughable" about what I asked.


Speaking only for myself, i think that it is indeed laughable that any PUP should worry about ANY delay that our signature JA's add to our attack rounds.


Manuvers allow us to guide our automaton's actions. Any delay they add are negligible and are totally worth it and an acceptable tradeoff. Remember, its Puppetmaster, not "Slow-Ass MNK with no kicks, focus, dodge, etc. and a retarded NPC Fellow". And yes, the Automaton without input from us is essentially a retarded NPC Fellow-laughable.


So yet again, yes. It is laughable, because the only way to not have the delay from manuvers is to not use manuvers. And since we all are going to use manuvers anyway, why even worry about it?


Sorry, kinda rambly there


TL;DR

Why? Because its a non-issue. A laughable one. Not a controversial one.
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#9 Apr 09 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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Kaithalina wrote:
All I did was pose a serious question; however, if you want to spout of nonsense on the internet I suppose you're free to do so. No where did I imply that we should not use the puppet, I am simply questioning whether or not our overall performance in a single aspect of the game could be improved by rethinking the current strategy of Deploy > Maneuver spam.
Serious question?
Kaithalina wrote:
Abilities add 120 delay to that combat round, a PUP using 3 maneuvers and 1 Deploy is adding +480 delay a minute. Lazily eyeballing the math that is at least 1 lost round a minute/60 lost rounds a hour. This doesn't even include things like Double Attack and Haste and I'm already starting to seriously wonder- Are maneuvers, at least as far as meripo/xp, worth it? :X
Do you play PUP? The benefits you gain from just using one maneuver per minute in an exp/marit situation could probably outweigh the loss of 2.2 combat rounds from the master per minute. Using one Dark/Fire maneuver for your WS alone would probably make up this loss, let alone the Thunder/Wind maneuvers you would also rotate into your TPing.

It seems to me that the only person here spouting nonsense on the internet is you. Even xbobbobx wouldn't ask such a retarded question.

Sorry if I come across as a troll, but seriously... thats like going to a Ranger and saying "You can technically melee faster than you can shoot bullets/arrows, why use marksmanship/archery at all?"
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#10 Apr 09 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sure it's still worth it to use maneuvers if you've got the right attachments. It still doesn't make them any less annoying to have to use and reapply every single minute, at least in my opinion...

Quote:
First of all, this isn't even tested for non-DNC abilities in that thread.


It applies to all JA/WS. Every single one.

Quote:
There was a discussion about this jig thing a while back: the conclusion is that while normal ability position lock could be disabled with gear changes (COR soloing anyone) they especially locked the DNC movement on JA (probably to avoid using chocobo jig in a kite/holding tool)


Yeah, they put some added protections on these, to avoid being able to Waltz/Jig on the move.

Unfortunately, from my understanding, this can still be prevented by simply tweaking/removing the .dats for those particular animations.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 10:00pm by Fynlar
#11 Apr 09 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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Anza wrote:
1. We're not even positive PUP JAs introduce this lag.

2. Gear change macros might reduce/eliminate it (AF gloves, which you should use in every maneuver anyway)


1. I just tested it, it does indeed add 120 delay

2. Just tested this too, gear swap still saw the added 120 delay

Spiritreaver wrote:
Speaking only for myself, i think that it is indeed laughable that any PUP should worry about ANY delay that our signature JA's add to our attack rounds.


Do you Boost whenever the timer is up to?

Spiritreaver wrote:
Manuvers allow us to guide our automaton's actions. Any delay they add are negligible and are totally worth it and an acceptable tradeoff. Remember, its Puppetmaster, not "Slow-Ass MNK with no kicks, focus, dodge, etc. and a retarded NPC Fellow". And yes, the Automaton without input from us is essentially a retarded NPC Fellow-laughable.


The negligible delay you speak of, like I said, can be as great as 144 rounds/hr. If you don't think that at least needs slightly re-examined I don't know what to tell you. That is at least 14 Stringing Pummels and at least 288 punches. With a Brutal and /WAR you can add in roughly 43 more punches and 2 more WS's.

Kairyu wrote:
The benefits you gain from just using one maneuver per minute in an exp/marit situation could probably outweigh the loss of 2.2 combat rounds from the master per minute. Using one Dark/Fire maneuver for your WS alone would probably make up this loss, let alone the Thunder/Wind maneuvers you would also rotate into your TPing.


Ignoring the criticism, you state that it could outweigh the lose and 1 fire would probably make up for the lose on WS. My thinking here is that it could or may provide more DoT using a constant Fire/Wind/Dark vs. something like Fire/Wind/Thunder and only applying Dark for it's WS. I only started testing this tonight so there is still a lot to go.




#12 Apr 09 2010 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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Kaithalina wrote:
Spiritreaver wrote:

Speaking only for myself, i think that it is indeed laughable that any PUP should worry about ANY delay that our signature JA's add to our attack rounds.



Do you Boost whenever the timer is up to?

Flawed comparison. When i'm on MNK i use Boost in 2 possibly 3 situations

1) Right before a WS

2) Every time the recast is ready if i'm specifically /WHM and Chi-Blast pimp extraordinaire.

*3) If i happen to be tanking something and use it w/e recast is up for extra hate. And this is not the whole fight even, I cut back on spamming Boost after my hate is established.

On PUP i'm constantly tweeking my manuver rotation to keep Klaxon doing the best possible w/e he happens to be setup for at the moment. Like i said, flawed comparison.


Kaithalina wrote:
Spiritreaver wrote:

Manuvers allow us to guide our automaton's actions. Any delay they add are negligible and are totally worth it and an acceptable tradeoff. Remember, its Puppetmaster, not "Slow-Ass MNK with no kicks, focus, dodge, etc. and a retarded NPC Fellow". And yes, the Automaton without input from us is essentially a retarded NPC Fellow-laughable.



The negligible delay you speak of, like I said, can be as great as 144 rounds/hr. If you don't think that at least needs slightly re-examined I don't know what to tell you. That is at least 14 Stringing Pummels and at least 288 punches. With a Brutal and /WAR you can add in roughly 43 more punches and 2 more WS's.


Again, the job is Puppetmaster. You know maximizing the automaton first? You of course don't forget the master part of the equation, but of the partners in PUP's master/auto dynamic, if one has to suffer-would you rather it be the automaton?


You took the time to do math, so i won't be flip. So tell me this straight, are you really bothered by the lack of caring that i have about the delay manuvers add to atk rounds or are you just a malcontent by nature looking for a dust up? If its the later, hate it for you cause i ain't that guy. I'll say my peace on a subject then i'm out, leaving you to find another guy to argue with.

If its the former, i don't know what to say. I've noticed from the get go on PUP that i could build TP faster if i didn't use as many(or none for that matter) manuvers. But that sort of defeats the purpose of the job doesn't it? I mean i really doubt SE is gonna change the delay on PUP JAs just so the master can do more dmg, they just raised the HTH cap for that.

Anyways, there you go. Keep on with w/e you are trying to accomplish here and i'll even reply if you direct another comment at me. My initial sentiment stays the same though. Delay from using manuvers are a non-issuse; increase the Master's dmg by cutting their usage and gut the auto's performance or keep the auto at peak performance and suck it up and take extra delay on the master. Those are the only options, and its clear which i support doing.
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One of my server's brightest minds... wrote:
Not to make too extreme a comparison, but Rog is like Nelson Mandella...


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#13 Apr 09 2010 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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A little more info: Deploy also adds the delay, the delay also stacks with Maneuver delay for a total of 4 seconds. Also it appears, I say appears cause its a pain to time right, maneuvers performed exactly in sync with a combat round don't add the delay. I wouldn't consider this practical though.

Basically~ Swing > Maneuver > Deploy I was able to get into situations where I could perform a second maneuver before the second combat round. My Deploy macro for PUP was setup up with Wind Maneuver and Deploy, /wait and another maneuver. Switching it to deploy - maneuver - wait - maneuver saves a small amount of time between the first and second round and might be the difference between getting off 1 or 2 rounds that fight depending on others dumping TP.

This has implications for weapons like Wargs too where you are already sitting at 500ish delay. Notching it up to 740-860 would feel like a calender year and could wreck your DoT.

SR wrote:
or are you just a malcontent by nature looking for a dust up?


I'm not even sure what that means lol. I'm guessing someone argumentative by nature? If so not at all.

SR wrote:
Anyways, there you go. Keep on with w/e you are trying to accomplish here and i'll even reply if you direct another comment at me. My initial sentiment stays the same though.


I won't be back for awhile, the rest of the project will take a bit of parsing with a lot of different Maneuver setups, etc. Hopefully I'll come back with a fairly good model for maxing performance in meripo or other fast paced activities.

I don't think I've been rude and have tried to be constructive with this subject; however, in this thread I have been defaulted on every post, ridiculed, compared to someone I imagine is not highly thought of, and asked if I even play the job. Not quite sure what to make of it, it appears everyone thinks I'm an idiot :| I apologize if I offended anyone.




#14 Apr 09 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
Good luck finding out the obvious.
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#15 Apr 09 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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Are maneuvers, at least as far as meripo/xp, worth it? :X


Personally i've yet to merit with my pup but im assumeing you'd use the Sharpshot frame with all the regular attachment.

So lets say you use Fire Thunder and wind attachment while fighting its pretty much Increased dmg/haste/acc. My thoughts would be that the haste/damage alone would give the puppet extra attack swings along with greater damage from All attacks it does makeing it do more damage then the attacks/WS's lost (The puppet also gains more swings/WS because of the haste and they do more dmg because of the attack).

Now if you don't use any manuevers at all your puppet ends up loseing attack rounds/WS's instead of you and its damage/acc is also impared which i THINK would be worse then loseing those attack/WS rounds the master would gain.

Again I don't merit on pup but if i had to guess i would think the gain in attack rounds/WS/damage/acc the pup gains would outweigh the loss of attack rounds/WS's the master would gain.
#16 Apr 10 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Default
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i dont think there was any situation where i had to deploy while engaged. i always did it while either the mob was on the way and i was positioning, or the brd had it right next to me and i was repositioning.

my whole thing is. even though only a fool would judge a job by its numbers. you merit with ALOT of fools. if people take a chance at inviting a pup to a merit, you better **** well put up some high armor piercers, because thats why they invited you in the first place. they could care less about your 2 pansy rounds you lost.

even if someone ran the numbers and somehow proved hypothetically that not maneuvering actually did increase total dot. i still wouldnt do it because id rather have an obvious increase of damage, than a behind the scenes increase that no one notices.
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#17 Apr 10 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kaithalina wrote:
Spiritreaver wrote:
Speaking only for myself, i think that it is indeed laughable that any PUP should worry about ANY delay that our signature JA's add to our attack rounds.


Do you Boost whenever the timer is up to?


congratulations, you win the mind-numbingly stupid strawman/failed sarcasm award. you should go back and edit that out it's so stupid. you said yourself you were posing a serious question, but in your own thread you ask something so obviously irrelevant?

---

anyway, it's good for PUPs to realize that they lose a decent chunk of master DoT from using maneuvers. however, the automaton accounts for too much damage for this to make any difference. at best, it's a reason to time it so you use the fewest amount of maneuvers per hour while still having the maximum amount up at a time, but that's it. just look at some PUP merit parses, and factor in what the automaton would lose by not using maneuvers. this is very easy to do if someone would be kind enough to post some parses.

edit: if you know the PUP's haste, you can also factor in what amount of DoT they would get by not losing the attack rounds. easy stuff, and i doubt it will be close, so someone who parses should post some and pick it apart. i'll pick it apart if you want, but i'd rather someone more intimately familiar with attachments, their effects, and how to play PUP75 well did it. perhaps bsphil. do it, picking apart parses is fun. i did it in a RDM melee thread once, it was great.

Edited, Apr 10th 2010 3:18am by milich
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