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The -na "problem"Follow

#1 Apr 06 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Seeing as how everyone here should be familiar with the Soulsoother -na priority "issue" by now (it's been going on for over 2 and a half years now!), I think it's time for this post... Sorry bout the long rant, but it seems needed judging by how often I see the AI getting blamed for deaths.

STOP WHINING ABOUT -NA PRIORITY GETTING YOU KILLED!!

At this point, it no longer matters whether it's a glitch, a bad decision by S-E, or just S-E's true intention. We know how it works (Soulsoother will always prioritize removal of status effects before it will cure the master), and especially for soloing, we know we can't rely on Soulsoother to throw us a cure when we have a curable status effect. So quit being stubborn about it and acknowledge our limitations.

If you're soloing, there are PLENTY of ways to get around the problem.

1. First and foremost, use a different puppet. Cure V spam is nice, but it makes things more risky if you're in a situation where a status effect is likely to waste a puppet casting round. If you're fighting things with nasty status effects and the -na priority makes it more of a risk of death, maybe Soulsoother isn't the best head to be using! Full SW works fine, and won't ever cast -na (and is sometimes nice to speed up kills with a few nukes mixed in). SW body and Harlequin head is even easier to force cures, since it will only Cure and Enfeeble (sometimes full SW will still prioritize nukes in certain situations). PUPs soloed stuff just fine before Soulsoother existed, this ability doesn't go away just because we have the WHM head.

2. Try /DNC to lessen the risk. In certain situations, /DNC can be very helpful either to remove statuses with Healing Waltz, or to be a backup self-cure in case your puppet misses a cure due to tossing out a -na instead.

3. Don't pick targets with nasty effects. Novel idea, target monsters that don't cause an issue with one of PUP+Soulsoother's inherent weaknesses. Do good BSTs solo on stuff that's more likely to cause them death, or do they choose appropriate camps? Does a solo BLM decide to go solo something that resists sleep and can't be easily killed with nukes? NO! Just because you WANT to kill some mob that uses paralyze, silence, poison, and curse doesn't mean it's a good idea.

4. Use some alternative remedies. Get poisoned? Pop an antidote. Silenced? Echo drops still work last I checked. You can equip an Eraser. Use Repair with AF feet to remove effects from the automaton. At least do what you can to help things along to avoid situations where the AI, doing what we KNOW it does, is put in a situation that's not beneficial to you. Supplement the puppet if you're in a nasty spot and really want a cure.

5. The list goes on... See below replies for even more examples of ways you can mitigate risk. Have an emergency max evasion set macro when survival is key, use Role Reversal for an instant emergency cure, rely more on /NIN shadows, etc.

Is Soulsoother still useful for some soloing? SURE! If you take proper precautions or fight appropriate targets, there's no problem at all. Cure V spammage can be nice! -na spells can be nice too, if you're fighting stuff that doesn't completely spam status moves. You might be willing to take the risk if you think there benefit of higher level cures/regens and some truly useful -nas is worth it.

I'm not saying we can't wish the priorities were different, or changed in the future. Maybe S-E WILL modify it in the future. But that's irrelevant to the here and now of "I died because of puppet AI". No, you didn't die because of the puppet AI, you died because you ignored your job's KNOWN weaknesses caused by the way the AI works. I have no sympathy at all for the idiot PUP who goes out punching a Skeleton with Ice Spikes on and wonders why they die because the puppet refused to Cure over Paralyna. It's your own **** fault.

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And food for thought - maybe this really is all "working as intended". Maybe S-E wanted Soulsoother to be more of a party-based frame. It's the only puppet that can cure other party members. It removes statuses from the PUP who shouldn't have hate, reducing burden on a non-PUP main healer (or if a PUP is a main healer, they should probably be out of range of status moves anyway). You CAN trigger -na on party members instead of the puppet automatically using it (Water maneuver tells the automaton to use -na on other party members over cures). Perhaps you're just trying to use it for a situation S-E didn't intend Soulsoother to be as efficient as you'd like it to be. And maybe S-E's intention was misguided - perhaps they were trying to come up with a way to make PUP more enticing to parties, and it never caught on.

But anyway, who knows, and who cares? It doesn't matter if you don't like it. The AI is the way it is, and it's been that way for nearing 3 years. It's not as if any of this should be coming as a surprise to you any more. Deal with what we have, people.

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 12:39pm by Anza
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#2 Apr 06 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Default
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maybe this really is all "working as intended".


it isnt because SE even said so in an interview 2 years ago at one of the fanfests, they said it wasnt working as intended. they just ignored it.

and although this is true, what would be nice if those other puppets cured party members too, incase you are duoing.
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#3 Apr 06 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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xbobbobx wrote:
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maybe this really is all "working as intended".


it isnt because SE even said so in an interview 2 years ago at one of the fanfests, they said it wasnt working as intended. they just ignored it.


Although it's still irrelevant and we need to just deal with what we have now... Does anyone have an actual citation to where S-E said this (i.e. not hearsay or paraphrasing from a message board post by a non S-E employee)? Often times people make assumptions or read things the wrong way when S-E speaks on some issue (see also: "We can upgrade Hades Sainti through Trial of the Magians!"; "Synergy can let me add augments to a Haubergeon!"). I'm not saying S-E didn't say this, but I'd like to see some more definitive evidence.

I seem to recall them looking into this and saying something along the lines of "nope, working as intended when the right conditions/maneuvers/attachments are present", and the PUP community responded "uh... no it isn't". Seems like something the PUP community might read too much into though, because AFAIK S-E has never come out and explicitly said "Soulsoother should prioritize Cures over -na on the Puppetmaster if the correct maneuvers/attachments are used".

Soulsoother certainly can be influenced in a party setting. It will use cure instead of -na on your tank, for instance, if HP conditions are met and there is no Water Maneuver (but it will prioritize -na with a Water up).

But again... completely irrelevant to how we should be playing PUP now with the way the AI is. There's no excuse for blaming the AI for deaths when we know plenty well what the AI currently does and we can easily take the proper steps to avoid putting ourselves in such situations.

Quote:
and although this is true, what would be nice if those other puppets cured party members too, incase you are duoing.


It would be nice if WAR had a native Cure JA and PUP had A+ H2H skill too... but again, we have to play with the cards we've been dealt and use the current system to our advantage as much as possible.

Edited, Apr 6th 2010 5:11pm by Anza
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#4 Apr 06 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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sure there is, you are thinking too black and white.

friend and myself came upon a nm, he was thf, I was pup/nin i believe, we saw him and fought him, we died because Soulsoother wouldnt cast anything besides paralyna. Couldnt change the puppet because how would thf get healed since other puppets wont cure him?

could have just not fought nm but why should have to avoid an nm because of SE's stupidity?

so ya, we died for no other reason then the puppets AI, only way to avoid it was ignore the nm. but again, why should.
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#5 Apr 06 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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xbobbobx wrote:
sure there is, you are thinking too black and white.

friend and myself came upon a nm, he was thf, I was pup/nin i believe, we saw him and fought him, we died because Soulsoother wouldnt cast anything besides paralyna. Couldnt change the puppet because how would thf get healed since other puppets wont cure him?

could have just not fought nm but why should have to avoid an nm because of SE's stupidity?

so ya, we died for no other reason then the puppets AI, only way to avoid it was ignore the nm. but again, why should.


This is ridiculous. Your argument is like saying that you and a friend came across an NM when you were both on BRD/WHM and you're **** that you couldn't defeat it because you didn't have enough DD power. The answer isn't to give BRD better DD capabilities, it's to fight the NM with appropriate jobs.

This is not "SE's stupidity", as you so often whine about. It's about recognizing your deficiencies and not putting yourself in a situation where you're likely to get killed. If your inability to accept the fact that PUP can't do EVERYTHING you might want it to do ruins your enjoyment of FFXI, don't play.

P.S. - one alternative in your NM scenario would have been to let the THF melee/tank and have the PUP stand back out of AoE range with Soulsoother. Then you can indeed trigger cures on the THF without having Paralyna when you don't want it. YOU not getting status effects avoids the AI situation where Soulsoother will cast -na. If you can't kill the NM that way, maybe you need to have different jobs there. Not every job or job combination works on every mob! I didn't think this was a controversial point...
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#6 Apr 07 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Good
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It's ironic to find a post ranting about the perceived whining of others. It seems at least as reasonable to be irritated with the -na problem as it is to be frustrated by people complaining about it.
#7 Apr 07 2010 at 1:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I usually keep a Light Manuever up incase a status effect gets me, that triggers the Eraser and usually leaves the Automaton open to cure me instead of a Na- spell.
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#8 Apr 07 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Default
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Anza, if SE wasnt so stupid and properly programmed the AI your rant would be moot. and yes, programming the auto to use na over cure is just plain stupid, anyone that argues with that is just an SE suck up and needs to take their head out of the sand.

so you must think like most of society, deal with the issue and learn to live with it, not fix the problem and you dont have to deal with the issue.

I guarantee your attitude is the wrong one.

do you not see how incredibly dumb it is to just give up and make workarounds for problems then to work to get the problem fixed? my guess is you dont, like most of society these days. We just like tossing away money dealing with issues instead if nipping it in the bud.

but whatever floats your boat anza.


Toyota had a recall on vehicles because sometimes the car shot forward because the gas pedal stuck, but dammit, I am i so sick of people complaining they got in an accident because their gas pedal stuck, they knew the problem existed, they should have made sure they were farther away from the car in front of them. so please stop complaining about the problem. Next time you go driving stay far behind, or if you know traffic will be bad, take another car so you have room. what is wrong with you people.

see how dumb that sounds? Yes one is real one is a game but the attitude is the same.

the only solution is fix the **** problem

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 9:05am by xbobbobx
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#9 Apr 07 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I usually keep a Light Manuever up incase a status effect gets me, that triggers the Eraser and usually leaves the Automaton open to cure me instead of a Na- spell.


sometimes that doesnt work due to timing. puppet uses eraser and cures your effect, removes light man. puppet casts silence on crab because you dont have a light up therefore it wont cure you. Would be nice if it went back to curing at 50% with no light up like it use to, now it only does it when the mob is almost dead.
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#10 Apr 07 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair it does kind of make me laugh when people complain about dying because their auto poisona'd them instead of curing in a solo situation, especially in a situation where your not actually getting hit that much or that hard to justify the cure V spammage. I've seen enough times when people have gone full evasion, /NIN and used Soulsoother and needed hardly any curing. Personally I'd rather use stormwaker and a bit more DD gear to speed up kills. Maybe have 3 different sets of evasion: One set of full out evasion, a medium evasion set and a low evasion set. Start out in full, and if you like youe evade rate, drop down to the medium set/lower set.
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#11 Apr 07 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anza, if SE wasnt so stupid and properly programmed the AI your rant would be moot. and yes, programming the auto to use na over cure is just plain stupid, anyone that argues with that is just an SE suck up and needs to take their head out of the sand.

so you must think like most of society, deal with the issue and learn to live with it, not fix the problem and you dont have to deal with the issue.

I guarantee your attitude is the wrong one.

do you not see how incredibly dumb it is to just give up and make workarounds for problems then to work to get the problem fixed? my guess is you dont, like most of society these days. We just like tossing away money dealing with issues instead if nipping it in the bud.

but whatever floats your boat anza.


Toyota had a recall on vehicles because sometimes the car shot forward because the gas pedal stuck, but dammit, I am i so sick of people complaining they got in an accident because their gas pedal stuck, they knew the problem existed, they should have made sure they were farther away from the car in front of them. so please stop complaining about the problem. Next time you go driving stay far behind, or if you know traffic will be bad, take another car so you have room. what is wrong with you people.

see how dumb that sounds? Yes one is real one is a game but the attitude is the same.



IMO, Anza makes a good point for what essentially boils down to common sense. He's not saying that he agrees with SE's silly stance on SS's -Na before cure(honestly does ANY PUP agree with it? i know i don't), just that he can see a possible reason FOR SE's attitude on it; also that since it doen't seem to be rectified anytime soon, best thing is to acknowledge the problem and plan accordingly. Really, its not a bad take on this.

He said from the beginning of the thread it would be a rant of sorts, and it was imo, but i think it was a bit justified. Since i've got back from break i've had plenty of /t from newish PUP whining about how they died trying to solo this or that with SS head setup. Its something to think about, died while trying to force an idea that was made for pt use to work in a solo situation.

Yeah, you can pound a square peg into a round whole; but resulting wasted time/effort is rarely worth doing it over just using the round peg to begin with.

And at the bolded bit, no. Different situation and that you would compare safety issues over possible sticking gas pedals to not using common sense in a videogame, that says something sad about your worldview doesn't it?

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#12 Apr 07 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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xbobbobx wrote:
Anza, if SE wasnt so stupid and properly programmed the AI your rant would be moot. and yes, programming the auto to use na over cure is just plain stupid, anyone that argues with that is just an SE suck up and needs to take their head out of the sand.


I'm not saying anything about whether I like the AI or not. I, like most PUPs, would like to be able to prioritize Cures over -na on Soulsoother.

But you're again ignoring the important point: IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER YOU OR I LIKE THE AI. Whether I like it or not, whether people complain for S-E to change things or not, the fact remains that the AI as it is now prioritizes -na. If you don't recognize that and throw yourself into situations where this AI priority kicks in, you have only yourself to blame if you die. It's not "the puppet's fault" or "the stupid AI's fault". It's YOUR fault - the puppet just does what it's programmed to do and you should learn when that presents a risk to you. You might want it to be different, but your desires aren't gonna trigger a Cure V.

midguardian wrote:
It's ironic to find a post ranting about the perceived whining of others. It seems at least as reasonable to be irritated with the -na problem as it is to be frustrated by people complaining about it.


It's not at all inconsistent to be both irritated with the way -na/cure priorities are AND frustrated by people complaining about it.

I'm not saying people shouldn't call attention to the issue and desire a fix. That kind of complaining is fine, and serves a valuable purpose of potentially contributing to S-E taking some action to change the AI.

I AM saying that unless/until we get such a fix, realize that the situation exists and recognize when it presents a risk to you in the game. If you ignore the known risk, I don't really feel sorry for you if you get yourself killed. It's the whining that "I died because the AI is dumb" that irritates me. We understand perfectly well how the Soulsoother priorities work, so you really shouldn't be dying due to AI-related issues unless YOU put yourself in a dangerous situation.

Tatham wrote:
I usually keep a Light Manuever up incase a status effect gets me, that triggers the Eraser and usually leaves the Automaton open to cure me instead of a Na- spell.

kairyu wrote:
Personally I'd rather use stormwaker and a bit more DD gear to speed up kills. Maybe have 3 different sets of evasion: One set of full out evasion, a medium evasion set and a low evasion set. Start out in full, and if you like youe evade rate, drop down to the medium set/lower set.


See, this is the kind of thinking I like. Is it our ideal situation? Maybe not. Eraser doesn't always work to avoid all issues, but it does help lessen the risk (Bob, I COMPLETELY agree that I would prefer things the way you described in your reply to Tatham's comment - but that's not what we have). Maybe you'd rather have Soulsoother -nas that you can control and Cure Vs over full SW, but SW does have some benefits in increased kill speed and avoiding -na spells that override cures. These two examples show people trying to use the tools they have as well as possible. Far, far better than getting killed and whining about it.

These are the kinds of things that are fantastic to see in this thread, so that I can refer newer PUPs to read this when they have questions instead of saying the same thing in /t a couple dozen times.

spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
He said from the beginning of the thread it would be a rant of sorts, and it was imo, but i think it was a bit justified. Since i've got back from break i've had plenty of /t from newish PUP whining about how they died trying to solo this or that with SS head setup. Its something to think about, died while trying to force an idea that was made for pt use to work in a solo situation.


Exactly. I have also been getting more questions lately from newer PUPs, including complaints or questions about the AI. Instead of creating a community of complainers who keep getting killed, I'd much rather show these PUPs how they can lower their risk, and note that it's maybe not the best idea to stubbornly stick to Soulsoother soloing in all situations when doing so is sometimes especially risky.

Trust me, if S-E made a change where Soulsoother with a light maneuver active/dominant prioritized cures, I'd be as happy as anyone. But I'm not going to sit around waiting for it and get nothing done in the meantime. I'll make do with the next best alternative now (and the next best alternative isn't wondering why I died due to AI priorities when I should have known better).

This really SHOULDN'T be something anyone has to tell people who pay attention and read boards like this. Unfortunately, it appears it does need to be said due to the amount of times I still read people blaming the AI/puppet for their death. You have only yourself to blame if you consciously ignore known issues.

Besides the willfully ignorant, there are also a lot of newer PUPs recently who aren't as familiar with automaton AI and the things we have in our bag of tricks to deal with any issues. I hope some of those people might find this discussion helpful so they can learn something.

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 12:32pm by Anza
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#13 Apr 07 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, and making a double-post to give another specific tip:

For 75PUPs, Role Reversal helps quite a bit too! Many times I've been soloing with Soulsoother, got hit with a status effect and wanted some HP. Well, provided your puppet has HP, RR is an instant cure every 4:00 (assuming the fairly standard 1 merit into RR).

You'll eventually need to restore your automaton's HP, but you've bought yourself time to do so and avoided death. Now you have some wiggle room to get the puppet's HP back through a number of options: automaton self-cures, repair, the now incredibly buffed auto-repair kit regen, deactivate/activate if your Activate timer is ready, etc.

The 4:00 timer should be plenty. If you're getting into situations where you're in desperate need of a Cure and you're getting a -na more often than that, you probably shouldn't be doing what you're doing if you want to live.

Edited, Apr 7th 2010 12:18pm by Anza
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#14 Apr 08 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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The AI is all sorts of muffed up, but it is also the combo of attachments too. You need to experiment with what does the job "closest" to correct. Just like when you wanna force a WS like CB- when you have Inhibitor equipt, itll most likely use string clipper even with 3 darks up. you get rid of Inhibitor and itll will most likely use CB when you have 1~3 Darks up. Play around. Have fun! Sure youll die, but you grow from the loss of experience...in this game hahaha :p
#15 Apr 09 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
, I am i so sick of people complaining they got in an accident because their gas pedal stuck, they knew the problem existed, they should have made sure they were farther away from the car in front of them.


Not that the situations are at all equitable, but you're saying, if you knew your car had a serious, dangerous, fault, you would drive it anyway because you don't believe it should have that fault?

Quote:
do you not see how incredibly dumb it is to just give up and make workarounds for problems then to work to get the problem fixed? my guess is you dont, like most of society these days. We just like tossing away money dealing with issues instead if nipping it in the bud.


How is putting yourself in danger doing anything to rectify the situation any more than working around it until, or indeed if, the problem is fixed? Are you somehow fixing your puppets AI by using it in situations you already know aren't ideal? Yes, it would make a lot of sense for SE to change the way puppet's AI works, and yes, it sucks to die to an unforseen "broken" game mechanic, and complaining to SE until it's fixed makes sense.

But saying you should play as if the problem doesn't exist just because you wish it didn't is **** retarded.

Quote:
I guarantee your attitude is the wrong one.


And as an fyi, every one of your posts i've read in the last 30 mins, you've spouted off some **** about how much better than the rest of society you are, whether on here or in real life. Who are you realy trying to convince?
#16 Apr 09 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Damage Gauge : Prioritizes Curing

You put a Light Manoeuver up, your puppet still doesn't prioritize cures over -na.

It doesn't work as intended.

End of story.


SE isn't doing anything about it, it sucks, we know.

End of thread ?
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#17 Apr 09 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Damage Gauge : Prioritizes Curing

You put a Light Manoeuver up, your puppet still doesn't prioritize cures over -na.

It doesn't work as intended.

End of story.


SE isn't doing anything about it, it sucks, we know.

End of thread ?


My opinion on it is clear, but i been thinking about it from a clueless SE point of view again. Maybe its the fact that SE considers all damage the same and is too complacent in its view of what an issue it really is to the tiny PUP percentage of the playerbase?


SE: Well dmg is dmg amirite?

PUPs: No you idiots, i'm sitting in the red blinded and the automaton gives me a Blindna over the REALLY needed Cure V!

SE: AH HA! But it did cure the status dmg didn't it?!?!?

PUPs: But i needed it to cure my HP dmg!!!

SE: Dmg is dmg. Working as intended! <Goes back to the office Dissidia tournament....>


This is one of those things i think will just plague the job forever until:

1) ALOT more ppl are playing PUP on a regular basis. And i don't mean on their spare time ingame, slowly soloing. I mean an amount of ppl consistently on PUP on the same lvl as the amount of w/e job de jour of the month is.

or

2) One of the developers at SE ACTUALLY decides to lvl the job from lvl 1 to cap and decides they want the job to thrive. The current "lets test our 99PUP/49WHM(you know this is how they do it) on the test server under ideal conditions and say its fine w/o considering actual day to day situations" approach is beyond tiresome imo.
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#18 Apr 09 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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MercureGilgamesh wrote:
Damage Gauge : Prioritizes Curing

You put a Light Manoeuver up, your puppet still doesn't prioritize cures over -na.

It doesn't work as intended.

End of story.


Ah, but you're making a common mistake. Trusting that the item descriptions mean what you think they mean (even if your interpretation would be one fairly logical possibility).

Damage Gauge most certainly DOES make the puppet prioritize Cures in some situations where it otherwise wouldn't do so without the attachment equipped. A puppet with no damage gauge and 1 light maneuver won't cure unless the target is below 40% HP. A puppet WITH a damage gauge and 1 light maneuver will cure targets once they're below 70%. So yes, if a target has 60% HP and all other conditions are met, Damage Gauge absolutely does "Prioritize Curing" where the automaton wouldn't do so without it.

Nowhere in the item description does it say Damage Gauge "Prioritizes Curing spells over status removal spells". You're reading way too much into things. And in fact, why would Damage Gauge's description say such a thing anyway? It was created, and that item description written, before Soulsoother head even existed (thus, before puppets even COULD cast -na spells).

spiritreaverdiablos wrote:
This is one of those things i think will just plague the job forever until:

1) ALOT more ppl are playing PUP on a regular basis. And i don't mean on their spare time ingame, slowly soloing. I mean an amount of ppl consistently on PUP on the same lvl as the amount of w/e job de jour of the month is.

or

2) One of the developers at SE ACTUALLY decides to lvl the job from lvl 1 to cap and decides they want the job to thrive. The current "lets test our 99PUP/49WHM(you know this is how they do it) on the test server under ideal conditions and say its fine w/o considering actual day to day situations" approach is beyond tiresome imo.


I agree. And until that happens (and it might never happen!), any PUP who ignores the limitations of the Soulsoother AI is bringing problems on themselves. Complain or wish for a change all you want, rationalize that the AI is "broken", explain how you think it should be... all irrelevant. You have no good argument to blame the AI for getting you killed when it's well known how the AI behaves.

If a BST complained about getting killed by monsters that are hard to stick Charm on, the answer isn't to complain that Charm needs to be changed (even if you could make a logical argument that the particular mob should be charmable at a good rate). A much more logical decision would be to simply not try to Charm those dangerous monsters unless you accept the big risk. I'm baffled why PUPs don't use this same logic to acknowledge their limitations, and instead keep trying to stubbornly use a playstyle that invites risk and then complain when GEE WHIZ it didn't work out so well...
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#19 Apr 10 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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OK i am currently soloing magic skillups in beadaux, had 3 light up for regen after converter, and histrion used cure III on me instead of cursna...

Just happened again, cure w/ 3 light instead of status removal

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 12:33am by moffatt
#20 Apr 10 2010 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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What is your skill level? It learns Cursna after Cure III I believe. Would be interesting, albeit impracticable, if 3 light is forcing healing now.
#21 Apr 10 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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currently 228, was 227 both times it happened
#22 Apr 11 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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That is odd moffatt and as i've never had that situation happen to me before i totally couldnt say for sure what is going on there. I would hazard a guess though that maybe your automaton is reading your cursed status as say a level capped status for whatever reason and as such ignores it, moving to the next priority after a status heala HP cure.

But my speculation about what happened aside, a few questions

* Did you have any HP dmg in addition to curse that would, with cursed max HP status, pull you down into the cure straight away threshold for that max HP?

* And also, what lvl are you? Were the mobs you were DC or better to you? Because it they were EP, yoe wouldn't be getting a regen regardless.

* You had 3 Light up to force a regen?
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#23 Apr 11 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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i'm level 67, so everything is TW. the first time it happened i had maybe 5-10% hp dmg while under cursed effect, so like 30 dmg. Second time i was at about 50% while cursed (~125/250). It ONLY happened with 3 light maneuvers, no less. it was 3 light for repair kit regen, since i didn't think it would cure itself if i had curse on me. the only attachments i had were mana booster, optic fiber, mana tank 1, mana converter, ARkit 2, either damage gauge or ARkit 1, slipped my mind probably damage gauge, maybe turbo charger.

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 3:13am by moffatt

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 3:18am by moffatt
#24 Apr 11 2010 at 2:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gotcha. Now that is very interesting. As i've never been in a situation of fighting TW and really needing a cure, i've never seen this behavior. Got me stumped here as well. Maybe the auto took the lvl of the mobs into consideration and deemed cursed status as less of an issue as opposed to just tossing a HP cure.

In any event damned odd imo as i know Klaxon tosses Cursna with a quickness when i'm farming Tons in the temple or the den. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if in SE's weird logic that straight HP cures bypassing stat cures were made available on mobs that pose less of a threat. Ass-backward thinking, but look at the source.

Next free day i have ingame i may go out there and see if i can replicate this on my own consistently. Sorry i didn't have an answer for you.
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#25 Apr 11 2010 at 3:15 AM Rating: Good
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my guess would be that 3 light forces cure or 3 light w/ optic fiber forces cure and nobody noticed it b/c it's so annoying and mostly unnecessary to ever have 3 light up.
#26 Apr 11 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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If a BST complained about getting killed by monsters that are hard to stick Charm on, the answer isn't to complain that Charm needs to be changed (even if you could make a logical argument that the particular mob should be charmable at a good rate). A much more logical decision would be to simply not try to Charm those dangerous monsters unless you accept the big risk. I'm baffled why PUPs don't use this same logic to acknowledge their limitations, and instead keep trying to stubbornly use a playstyle that invites risk and then complain when GEE WHIZ it didn't work out so well...



I'm all about working with what you got. However, while you do, you should be sending that feedback to SE about the problem. I know you stated it in your OP, but I just have to reiterate what can happen when design flaws go on overlooked by both SE and the community. Lets look at BST since you used it as an example. It's the perfect example of what not to do when your job has a obvious design flaw. The BST community (in the past) was extremely resistant to change. They accepted every BS that SE threw to them without question, justified it and just adopted to the new rules. As long as they could solo, **** didn't matter. If a few BST brought up any complaints they were immediately sub-defaulted and silenced.

BST had a -30% penalty for using a Pet. The BST community actually justified this obvious design flaw by saying that a "Pet" is like an extra party member so the -30% xp cut had a purpose. Didn't matter if the pet was charmed or a Jug pet. You were only getting 70% exp if it was with you while the mob died. Solution? "Leave" your pet when the mob had a silver of HP left and then solo the remaining HP. this way you would always get 100% XP (unless your pet was higher level than you). So for 4 years bst went with the charm>release>kill method , for 4 years BST reputation in PTs got tarnished and compiled a wealth of misunderstanding with Non-BST, for 4 years the community secluded themselves in the mentality that the job was "Solo Only or STFU!" (since you get only 70% xp in PTs when using a pet). It took SE 4 years to remove the exp penalty when the community finally opened their eyes and saw that jobs like SMN and DRG were running around with pets that did not penalize their exp gain. But the damage had already been done. Till this day non-bst still think inviting BST to parties will penalize their exp (which usually was never the case)

The same Exact thing happened with BST and "Sic" firing off random AOE TP abilities. That **** would wake every sleeping target in the zone as well as aggro every nearby non-aggressive mob, pretty much guaranteeing a party wipe. Justified by people saying BST would go around soloing everything in the game with cactus jug (1k needles) if we could select which TP attacks our pets used. Best solution? Just don't use "Sic" if there was a chance an AOE would cause catastrophic effects, Which was the case 95% of the time if you were in a group or in an end game event. Took SE ~6 years to remedy this problem, and even now, the problem is only fixed with jug pets. If you're using charmed pets you have no control over what they do.

Another problem (yes there are more) with the BST job is Pets engaging unintended targets. You'd be in a PT fighting Mob A, Mob B uses a AOE ability/Spell which causes significant damage and is then slept by sleepers. Your pet now has Mob B on his hit list, he will automatically disengage mob A and starts pounding away at Mob B waking it back up and sending it straight after your sleepers. I've heard BST justifying this by saying that Pets or "Wild" so they are only following their natural instinct to fight back when they are provoked O.O !? Best solution? Spam the **** out of your "Fight" macro to send your pet back to his original target or "Heel" your pet and send it back at your original target. Took SE 8 years to... Wait no... this problem still has yet to been fixed.

Now I can go on about Jug Pets and the retarded level caps, Reward being nearly useless at high levels, Charmed pets going uncharmed without warning, the limited choices of jug pets at 75, Beast Correlation chart being useless, Not being able to zone with Jugs. But I'm sure you don't want to hear about that.


So as you can see BST gets an A+ for working around SE's numerousbad game design, but a D- at getting anything accomplished in a meaningful time frame.

Rather SE mean it or not is irrelevant, I'm sure BST's exp penalty and Random Sics was "Working as intended" at the time it was implemented. Bad ideas are still bad ideas and they should be fixed. You should take note that PUP is a recent addition to the game and in 3 updates got more meaningful job adjustments than BST did in ~8 years combined. Yes the Q.Q about certain problems should stop and more workable solutions be implemented but don't use that as a ruse for poor decisions on SE's part,
#27 Apr 11 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The BST community (in the past) was extremely resistant to change. They accepted every BS that SE threw to them without question, justified it and just adopted to the new rules. As long as they could solo, sh*t didn't matter. If a few BST brought up any complaints they were immediately sub-defaulted and silenced.


Quote:
You should take note that PUP is a recent addition to the game and in 3 updates got more meaningful job adjustments than BST did in ~8 years combined. Yes the Q.Q about certain problems should stop and more workable solutions be implemented but don't use that as a ruse for poor decisions on SE's part,



It most definately was not due to lack of feedback to SE from the BST community, people had been complaining to SE about the pointless xp reduction and the introduction of a new sic ability for years; the main reason no change occured was purely that until recently SE did nothing to fix the real issues with any job.

The BST community merely acknowledged the fact that there was **** all to do but find a way to work around SE until they got their act together, while still trying to push for change in the areas the job needed it to enhance the unique playstyle bst became.

Quote:
for 4 years BST reputation in PTs got tarnished and compiled a wealth of misunderstanding with Non-BST, for 4 years the community secluded themselves in the mentality that the job was "Solo Only or STFU!"


It was never so much a solo only to just "deal" with the situation. Soloing as BST was just a much bigger challange, more fun, and hence more rewarding, style of play. And subsequently, the AoE sic issue became nothing more than an increase to pet DD, as leaving a pet and recharming deaggros any extra mobs. From what i've experienced, BST was the least secluded of any job, it has much more comraderie with other BSTs as well as other pet jobs and static party setups than any other.


While I completely agree with your point of trying to change the -na situation, but I'd differ in the fact that I'd see BST as more of an example of how to go about finding a way of overcoming the flaws until SE get off their **** and DO change it, as well as an example of how long SE might take to get off their asses and listen to PUPs. If bst had waited until SE had listened to them to play the game as SE had intended, the job would have become little more than a mediocre DD.
#28 Apr 11 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Default
You seriously made a rant about this?

Kidding me right? This is like the recent one about role reversal.

"Hi guys, Anza Mays here with Role Reversal, many you already have it and know what it does, but wait there's more."

Maybe you are just trying to get your post count up. Perhaps you really want guru so you post things that will get you rated up. Perhaps you are just a captain obvious, either way sometimes I wonder why you post so many obvious things in the job forums as I know you are smarter than that. Maybe you want to make a solid contribution by being a captain obvious for the brand new pups who this would not apply to. Who knows, but it is sort of disheartening to see so many of these.

For those of you who read this since it will be sub defaulted, hi.
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#29 Apr 11 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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For those of you who read this since it will be sub defaulted, hi.


I'll do my part in making your desire come true, but sadly can only rate it down once ; ;
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#30BelenosSwiftWater, Posted: Apr 11 2010 at 1:32 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It is more for when it is there, and if it does not get there, for the irony.
#31 Apr 11 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Backward wrote:

While I completely agree with your point of trying to change the -na situation, but I'd differ in the fact that I'd see BST as more of an example of how to go about finding a way of overcoming the flaws until SE get off their **** and DO change it, as well as an example of how long SE might take to get off their asses and listen to PUPs. If bst had waited until SE had listened to them to play the game as SE had intended, the job would have become little more than a mediocre DD.




Can you really still say that after reading this thread: ?
Link = http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=8&mid=116730541875991614


#32 Apr 12 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
You seriously made a rant about this?


I'll stop being concerned with it when I stop seeing people mentioning getting killed "because of their puppet not prioritizing cure". Not only here and on other boards, but in game, I see people complain about this with startling regularity. In the week or so prior to my original post, I received several in game /tells about the issue, seen puppet AI mentioned as a reason people died doing Trial of the Magians soloing, and seen it cited as a reason why PUP is not a very good solo job.

Especially due to the somewhat increased interest in PUP lately, it's a good time for a reminder. If nothing else, having some suggestions for what you CAN do instead of getting killed due to resisting the reality of the AI is a benefit to me personally simply so I can point people to a thread to read instead of having to explain in detail.

Quote:
like the recent one about role reversal.


Never said that was a massive revalation, just a nifty little benefit I realized while playing that I didn't really consider the first few times I played post-update. I'm glad you're so awesome that you know everything before anyone says it, but it never hurts to clearly describe things for the community. Not everything is a major OMG moment, but those little tips sure don't hurt. Might have made some people say "oh, yeah I didn't realize that - nifty trick, I'll have to remember that".

At any rate, I'm 100% sure that my posts you're complaining about (some of which might indeed be obvious to you) are a **** of a lot more helpful to the PUP community than you whining about me making observations you already recognized. If anyone is padding post counts here, it's the guy saying nothing of value at all.

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BST stuff


Interesting points, and you do bring up a good point that just accepting flaws might lead to other seemingly unrelated issues. I think what you say has some merit and really is worth thinking about. It's also valuable to recognize lessons from other jobs so that PUP can avoid being stigmatized any more than it already is. And I'm with you that there is some value in complaining as a form of advocacy so that S-E might fix things the knowledgeable PUP community thinks are issues (though judging by things like the slow response to the vocal BST complaints, I'm not that hopeful this late in the game that S-E is gonna make many more substantial tweaks to PUP).

However, I disagree on a couple of key points:

1. There's a difference between complaining to get something done, and using "AI sucks" as a crutch or an excuse. "I died because the automaton AI is bad" is just a lousy excuse that I unfortunately see a lot of. PUP soloed fine before Soulsoother existed. It's even better in many situations now precisely thanks to Soulsoother. It's just bad in CERTAIN solo situations. Stay out of those situations unless the advocacy described above helps to usher in a change, rather than putting yourself in those situations, dying, then getting frustrated. Something I see way too much. Also, just giving up is equally bad - PUP CAN succeed in a lot of the situations people have issues in due to AI by just making a few fairly simple changes (say, different automaton head).

2. A big difference between PUP and BST here is that this issue doesn't affect usually come up for a PUP in a party, so it shouldn't have a major affect on people besides the solo PUP (or much more limited instances where Soulsoother is useful - perhaps a small duo-trio group). Generally in party, PUP will use a DD puppet anyway, so the question of -na over cure is entirely irrelevant. Plus, even in a party, a PUP who isn't an idiot can use Soulsoother in party and avoid this AI issue by simply staying out of range from nasty enfeebling effects (though some PUPs, bob among them, apparently haven't figured this out). Your BST examples are/were things that really did have a party impact at some point in time. This Soulsoother issue has always been mostly thought of as a problem that affects solo play the most adversely. Hard to hurt PUP's reputation in parties from a problem that usually only shows up for solo PUPs. Parties care about PUP's solo difficulties with Soulsoother about as much as they care about whether X camp for BST has a decent number of charmable mobs in good locations (read: they don't care one bit).

Especially considering that PUP+automaton is already often a #1 parsing DD in parties from 1-75, and it has only gotten a BETTER reputation lately through a highly publicized increase in H2H skill, I don't really think that an issue that largely affects solo PUPs using an automaton that's rarely used in parties is going to be affecting invite rates. There may be some misconceptions about the job (many people don't even notice that #1 parse even when they are in the party with that PUP), but I truly don't believe a lack of invites for PUPs has its roots in the WHM head wanting to blindna a solo PUP instead of Cure V them. If nothing else, dumb/bad PUPs are probably STILL the worst problem facing PUP's reputation. PUPs getting themselves killed because they can't comprehend their own job's solo shortcomings only makes PUPs look more laughable to outsiders.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 6:32am by Anza
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#33xbobbobx, Posted: Apr 12 2010 at 7:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So what you are saying, if you are in a party, and using soulsoother, the master should stay out of range, and not bother Being a DD, therefore eliminated the AI problem?
#34 Apr 12 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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1) So what you are saying, if you are in a party, and using soulsoother, the master should stay out of range, and not bother Being a DD, therefore eliminated the AI problem?

2) Please tell me that is not what you are saying, because that would be very dumb, ya lets just ignore the DD potential of the master.
3) Again, it is a bug, the damage guage does not work as intended, it does not prioritize cures like it says, the solution and only solution is them to fix it, especially with level cap being raised and alot of people have to concentrate on leveling only one job.

4) But whatever, you will be an easy target in life, a person that gives up easy and likes taking it up the ass, congrats on that.


First off, of course i ain't Anza, but i have common sense and felt like speaking up:

1- In some situations yeah. If you have Soul Soother setup out in a party, goes to reason that some healing is needed. Now if you are just back-up healer, park your auto back in mage country and do your thing up front.

Same scenario now, but mob has stat-inflicting moves. If you want the auto to be of any use as a backup healer, you now need to get the master(you) out of harms way; or all the auto will be doing is curing status effects on you every time it casts.

Bottom line here, if you agree to a hybrid role in a party, be ready to shift your actions on the fly. If back-up/main healing is something you agree to as PUP, you need to be ready to step to the backline as needed.


2- I don't think he said ignore the master's DD, but if the SS is already out in a party setting(note: PUP doing this has already consented to a hybrid role as they don't have a DD frame out) it would be stupid to continue forcing conditions where the auto only -na's you over and over. If that is what's happening, may as well have set-up a dd frame from the get go and killed the mob faster.


3- No one here is saying there is no possibility that its a bug and absolutely no one is saying that the way spell priorities are for the SS atm are awesome; but until this fix happens, if ever, what do you do? Keep running into the same situation time after time hoping this time you'll get that HP cure over a status cure? That kind of behavior can easily be used as a definition of insanity.


4- This was just low rent. Bush even. Bush-league.
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#35 Apr 12 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Like it or not, we are stuck with this while playing. As a Puppetmaster, we are constantly switching frames and maneuvers to optimize our automaton's performance in various situations.

Should it not likewise follow that we should switch our playstyle and attack methodology for certain situations? Yes, PUP can DD effectively, even moreso now with the updates. However, melee is not always the best course of action. In these situations, it may be better for the group to backline for a while and keep an unhindered Soulsoother curing instead of using -nas.

For instance, if you are aware that an enemy will regularly use an area-paralyze move, don't bring yourself and your automaton in range KNOWING the coding of the AI (Intended or not, it exists). Soloing is even easier to avoid this situation. Would a Black Mage run around soloing Imps without bringing any Echo Drops, and then complain that it's SE's fault for giving silence to enemies?

This job is all about understanding what you are going to be up against and preparing for it beforehand.
#36 Apr 12 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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xbobbobx wrote:
Quote:
Plus, even in a party, a PUP who isn't an idiot can use Soulsoother in party and avoid this AI issue by simply staying out of range from nasty enfeebling effects


So what you are saying, if you are in a party, and using soulsoother, the master should stay out of range, and not bother Being a DD, therefore eliminated the AI problem?


If you are in a party and using Soulsoother, you're already in questionable territory. Bsphil says it well in another recent thread:
bsphil wrote:
Sharpshot should basically always be your goto frame for parties.

Quote:
If you as PUP are the only source of healing, then yes you will need soulsoother. I can count the number of times I've done that on zero hands though.


If you are in the extremely uncommon situation where your party is so lacking for healing magic that they need to rely solely on a PUP's automaton for healing, AND you're fighting something where there is a strong risk of AoE status effects... then yes, I do think you should "ignore the DD potential of the master". At this point the damage that a PUP punching something is going to contribute is far less valuable than ensuring that other party members stay healed. In fact, sitting on the backlines on /SCH is probably going to benefit your party more than you punching stuff. This is the same reason a WHM won't be running in to melee on a nasty NM. They could contribute damage! Hexa Strike is pretty strong! But the WHM is obviously more useful ignoring their "DD potential" and hanging back to focus on the role they have been assigned, which is typically "make sure others stay alive".

If you're talking low-man stuff with 2-3 party members, yeah, it kinda sucks for Soulsoother when you're fighting something with AoE status effects. Known limitation. But suggesting you should go ahead and get right in there anyway practically begging to get party members killed due to how you KNOW the AI works... YOU are the fool. What you need to do is tell your party members "uh, this isn't going to work so well". How about we (1) get a true healer, (2) use some sort of better suited hybrid healer (DNC, a DRG/mage, etc.), or (3) do SOMETHING to mitigate the risk (maybe come PUP/DNC and hold some TP for emergency cures if the puppet misses a round on -na spells, or to Healing Waltz yourself), instead of relying solely on an automaton in situations where you know it won't perform too well.

Would you run into a fight where you know you need a strong tank, and bring only BRDs, SCHs, and RNGs? Guess what, genius? Not gonna work so well! Doesn't mean that BRD SCH or RNG need to be "fixed". Just means you're bringing a knife to a gun fight. Soulsoother PUP works in a lot of situations, but not all of them. QQ.

Quote:
Again, it is a bug,o the damage guage does not work as intended, it does not prioritize cures like it says, the solution and only solution is them to fix it, especially with level cap being raised and alot of people have to concentrate on leveling only one job.


The Damage Gauge does not work like you (and many others) want it to work. It does not prioritize cures like you wish it does. But the item description certainly does not decisively say that it "prioritizes curing in all situations, including for the Soulsoother frame in situations where the Puppetmaster (but not other party members if the proper maneuvers are active) is affected by an enfeebling effect". You've read too much into this, particularly considering that the Damage Gauge and its description have been around longer than the Soulsoother head.

And good luck with your "only solution" garbage. If S-E doesn't implement your desired suggestions with the level cap raise, what are you going to do about it? Because let's be honest here, after the AI working the same way for years already there's a very good chance that we're not going to get the change you want.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 2:28pm by Anza
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#37BelenosSwiftWater, Posted: Apr 13 2010 at 12:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Then do not use it as an example, something that should not be happening should not be an example like that. The ironic thing is that the "PUP who isn't an idiot can use the Soulsoother in a party..." but it makes them just that, an idiot.
#38 Apr 14 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
Then do not use it as an example, something that should not be happening should not be an example like that. The ironic thing is that the "PUP who isn't an idiot can use the Soulsoother in a party..." but it makes them just that, an idiot.

Make me agree with Bob too for possibly the first time ever, wtf?!


1. Learn to quote correctly.

2. Although it's generally a bad choice for a traditional exp party, there are non-standard situations where Soulsoother in party can be useful. Lowman groups needing healing, maybe some specific mission/NM fight, mid-level WHM/PUP, etc.

If you are in one of those admittedly uncommon situations, and your automaton's healing magic is important enough to be the difference between success and failure, AND there's a risk of a meleeing master getting status effects (say, AoE mob moves)... You should probably focus on ensuring that you can do your most important job (hint: that job isn't adding a little extra DD by punching). Keeping yourself status-free so your puppet is ready to cure is a higher priority here, and what the non-idiot PUP would do.

Edited, Apr 14th 2010 1:21pm by Anza
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#39 Apr 14 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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have been in a couple VNM fights that only won because my my soulsoother
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#40 Apr 18 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
2) One of the developers at SE ACTUALLY decides to lvl the job from lvl 1 to cap and decides they want the job to thrive. The current "lets test our 99PUP/49WHM(you know this is how they do it) on the test server under ideal conditions and say its fine w/o considering actual day to day situations" approach is beyond tiresome imo.


Hehe, this made me think of the fictional scenario of testing invite rates.

Tester 1: Ok, I'm flagging up now.
Tester 2: Ok, invite sent.
Tester 1: I really don't see what they are complaining about. The invite came almost instantly.
Tester 2: Well, we can report back that invite rates are fine to SE now.
#41 Apr 20 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry but I have to say that I agree with Anza for 2 Reasons, one being that anza has facts and logic, and two because I feel the same way about complaints on the "-na" Proirity.

Though through everything this is definitly my favorite thing I saw:

Quote:
This is the same reason a WHM won't be running in to melee on a nasty NM. They could contribute damage! Hexa Strike is pretty strong! But the WHM is obviously more useful ignoring their "DD potential" and hanging back to focus on the role they have been assigned, which is typically "make sure others stay alive".


I love this due to the fact that I have whm and pup at 75... but I think that there is nothing wrong with going /sch to stand back and through some cures or even "-na" spells. Hell, I did it for half of Caedarva Mire before sync came out cuz I was the main heal in my imp pts most the time. Grab a NIN tank, with some DDs(a thf is kinda nice for puller and stacking hate on NIN in the beginning of the fight), another mage if you want (now that I think about it BRD would be nice for Haste on pt and extra refresh for yourself as a plus). I used V cloak and Sanction for 2mp/tick which is pretty close to refresh and I just used -na Spells and regen on some of the DDs as well as threw a Cure III when automaton used Regen III and nin's shadows dropped rq...Automaton basically just kept the NIN alive with Flashbulb(god send when nin tanks ;p), Regen III, and "hate free" Cure IV/Vs. Best part was that I was out of range for Amnesia so I could keep up all my manuevers at all times and this is mostly the reason why I wanted to try to heal an imp pt. Thats how I leveled my pup from like 65-70 for the most part, and although its un-orthadox...it was fun cuz I didn't feel overburdened like I did on whm (which sucks for those who haven't leveled mages through there) trying to haste, cure, silena, and regen all at once plus we didn't need a refresh due to unlimited mp w00t! ^^; so with the automaton the spells were kinda split between us making it soo much easier.

TBH, I laugh at myself when I die from "-na" Proirity because not only is Laughter is the best Medicine but because its not a big deal to complain about. My suggestion to stop "-na" Priority..../dnc, /sch, or just bring some items.
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