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PUP in Nyzul (and subjob perspectives)Follow

#1 Mar 24 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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At least in Nyzul Isle, since I haven't had a chance to try something else yet, PUP is getting ridiculously potent. Even as PUP/NIN I'm able to stay competitive with other DDs, and that's NOT counting the damage from my automaton. With the boost to mana tanks, Spiritreaver is able to keep up very well and on all 3 of the climbing runs I did today, it matched my damage as master. Was eating pizza and using full haste gear and was able to easily cap hitrate for the entire climb.

Just recently I joined a floor 100 run on PUP/WAR, just to see how useful I would be on a more difficult boss fight. Needless to say, I've never wished more that I was subbing something other than /WAR. I never even used berserk until the boss floor - I was taking hate too often even without it. I actually ended up parsing as the top DD on cerberus, again, without counting my automaton's damage, against a SAM, a MNK, and an adaberk WAR. I swapped out to valoredge while we were buffing up. Wasn't really sure how to go about it, but I knew that the bosses on 60/80/100 resist magic really badly.

I really do think we're going to end up going the way of MNK (at least partially) and need to sub /NIN drastically more often. If not, /DRG, for a haste boost, extra accuracy, and a (small) amount of hate shedding ability for doing things like ventriloquy -> high jump.

The biggest deal of all of this is probably that PUP is going to be able to hold its own as a DD without the automaton at all. That bodes fairly decently at least for the bottom of the barrel PUPs that don't understand how to gear and use automatons. PUP is becoming borderline overpowered in the way that people seem to assume SAM is. The funniest part is that this makes PUP way more potent than when Magic Mortar first came out, but since the damage isn't condensed into one shot (or at least into one player/npc instead of split in two) nobody is going to realize how strong PUP is. Not only that, people will still by in large prefer to take even well geared PUPs over lesser geared players on other jobs.

Oh and here's a picture of the chat log at floor 100. The WAR couldn't voke hate off of me even after he WS'd before I did.

Screenshot



Edited, Mar 24th 2010 3:25am by bsphil
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#3 Mar 24 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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PuppetPride wrote:
Time to go punch some crabs in the face.


Maybe it was the crab lobby that knocked PUP hand-to-hand skill down from A to B+.
#4 Mar 24 2010 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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I really hope you guys can keep it up outside of Nyzul too.

Just curious though, how well geared were you compared to the other DDs? I saw the WAR had Adaberk, but aside from that, were they well geared/merited compared to you? I am just asking since you actually beat them without counting your auto which is pretty sick. I guess that difference might be needed when it comes to tougher mobs and the B/A discrepency in skill really starts to show, but still... wow. :)


#5 Mar 24 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Did you face anything with nasty AoE or do the defensive attachments make a difference? This may not be a problem anymore with the pupdate however i climbed 1 > 100 on pup but wouldnt dare take it to boss floors since i was worried about Cara getting killed off right away and not being able to go pup anymore lol.

On a side note.....im sick off punching crabs in the face T.T
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#6 Mar 24 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Awesome account Bsphil! Its good to hear actual experiences from other PUP after this update. I took PUP a few times on my climb to 100, very nice to hear that others are doing the same and having even better results now.


Quote:
I really hope you guys can keep it up outside of Nyzul too.

Just curious though, how well geared were you compared to the other DDs? I saw the WAR had Adaberk, but aside from that, were they well geared/merited compared to you? I am just asking since you actually beat them without counting your auto which is pretty sick. I guess that difference might be needed when it comes to tougher mobs and the B/A discrepency in skill really starts to show, but still... wow. :)



Oh, its the same on mobs outside of Nyzul as well.

OTW to 'necropolis to work on Magian weapon with a buddy, we decided to try popping the VWNM in Batallia. I was PUP/NIN with Soulsoother setup and he was MNK/NIN in full Uksune. Also had a PLD/DNC buddy come along too. We handled the tier one ele's no problem. When Skuld popped though, we had to reconfigure our pt(this NM Pixie is crazy btw. CS and access to high lvl BLM spells, prepare to kite CS).

That in and of itself was expected. HOW we reconfigured was not. We drafted a WHM come help, the PLD swappped to /NIN-then it gets weird but very nice. Without even discussing it really, Uksune MNK decided to go swap to RDM. His reasoning was that me as PUP/NIN plus a reconfigured DD Automaton would be enough DD if it meant support for the PLD and WHM.

And it totally was. When we popped Skuld again, it was a cakewalk. Final setup: PLD, WHM, RDM, and PUP(me); beat this mob with ease. Skuld is lvl 85 at least i think.

Might not mean much to other ppl, but this was a huge outing imo. The fact that it never even occurred to ANY of my associates to have me swap to another job for this, beyond awesome.

But back to the main topic really quickly, speaking for myself, /WAR, /NIN, /DNC-normal subs my PUP will be using; and /RDM or /SCH -f i am ever asked to stay in the back(which i don't think will be happening anytime soon unless its just a mob that physical DD in general can't be on.)
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#7 Mar 24 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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xxAnikalxx wrote:
Did you face anything with nasty AoE or do the defensive attachments make a difference? This may not be a problem anymore with the pupdate however i climbed 1 > 100 on pup but wouldnt dare take it to boss floors since i was worried about Cara getting killed off right away and not being able to go pup anymore lol.

On a side note.....im sick off punching crabs in the face T.T
Well, Gate of Hades spam got to be pretty annoying. I ended up dying at about 5% because nobody could pull hate off me and the healers were paralyzed from Ululation. The other DDs finished cerb off within a few seconds after that.

No drop, of course.

Screenshot
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#8 Mar 24 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hey Bsphil, do you have links to your gearsets? I'd be interested in comparing them with my own gear, which while I feel isn't shabby, sounds like it doesn't come close to comparing with yours

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:47pm by MagingMartin
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#9 Mar 24 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Overlord MagingMartin wrote:
Hey Bsphil, do you have links to your gearsets? I'd be interested in comparing them with my own gear, which while I feel isn't shabby, sounds like it doesn't come close to comparing with yours
Nothing that stellar to write home about. Suppose just posting the xml would be a bit easier.

<variables> 
	<var name="TPlear">Diabolos's Earring</var> 
	<var name="pants">Herder's Subligar</var> 
</variables> 
 
<sets> 
	<group name="Haste" inherit="Acc"> 
		<set name="TP"> 
			<head>Walahra Turban</head> 
			<neck>Peacock Charm</neck> 
			<lear>$TPlear</lear> 
			<rear>Brutal Earring</rear> 
			<body>Goliard Saio</body> 
			<hands>Pantin Dastanas</hands> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Ulthalam's Ring</rring> 
			<back>Pantin Cape</back> 
			<waist>Swift Belt</waist> 
			<legs>$pants</legs> 
			<feet>Puppetry Babouches +1</feet> 
		</set> 
		<set name="SP" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<neck>Flame Gorget</neck> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Surge Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="HF" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
		</set> 
	</group> 
	<group name="Acc" default="yes"> 
		<set name="idle" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Pantin Taj</head> 
			<legs>Herder's Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<neck>Peacock Charm</neck> 
			<lear>$TPlear</lear> 
			<rear>Brutal Earring</rear> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Pantin Dastanas</hands> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Ulthalam's Ring</rring> 
			<back>Pantin Cape</back> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>$pants</legs> 
			<feet>Puppetry Babouches +1</feet> 
		</set> 
		<set name="haste"> 
			<head>Walahra Turban</head> 
			<waist>Swift Belt</waist> 
			<body>Goliard Saio</body> 
			<hands>Pantin Dastanas</hands> 
		</set> 
		<set name="SP" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<neck>Flame Gorget</neck> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Surge Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="HF" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Maneuver"> 
			<hands>Puppetry Dastanas</hands> 
			<neck>Buffoon's Collar</neck> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Fire" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
			<feet>Puppetry Babouches +1</feet> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Ruby Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Enkidu's Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Ice" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<body>Errant Houppelande</body> 
			<feet>Pantin Babouches</feet> 
			<lring>Diamond Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Omega Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Mahatma Slops</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Wind" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Earth" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<feet>Creek M Clomps</feet> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Thunder" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<legs>Enkidu's Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Water" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<head>Errant Hat</head> 
			<body>Errant Houppelande</body> 
			<lring>Sapphire Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Omega Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Mahatma Slops</legs> 
			<back>Rainbow Cape</back> 
			<feet>Mahatma Pigaches</feet> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Light" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<head>Errant Hat</head> 
			<body>Errant Houppelande</body> 
			<rring>Omega Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Mahatma Slops</legs> 
			<back>Rainbow Cape</back> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Dark" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<head>Walahra Turban</head> 
			<body>Goliard Saio</body> 
			<feet>Mahatma Pigaches</feet> 
			<rear>Insomnia Earring</rear> 
			<lring>Demon's Ring +1</lring> 
			<rring>Demon's Ring +1</rring> 
			<waist>Qiqirn Sash +1</waist> 
			<back>Rainbow Cape</back> 
		</set> 
	</group> 
</sets> 


I also have an evasion group not listed but it's so sh*tty that I don't really ever use it. Pretty much the only unique piece is o.hat. I'll eventually get around to fleshing that out.

I have 6 gear swap macros. Two to change the $pants variable between Pantin and Herder's depending if I have a melee frame out, two to change the $TPlear back and forth between Fenrir's Earring and Diabolos's earring depending on the time of day, and two to swap between my haste group and my acc group. For pretty much everything in nyzul I used the haste group. I swapped to the acc group for the floor 100 boss but I actually had a 100% hitrate with pizza and my acc gear (39 hits 0 misses), so maybe I need to look into a haste+pet stat set. Need a **** Spurrer's...

For h2h I'm using these:

Screenshot


Which are basically the equivalent of Hades Sainti with attack+12 (DD wise at least). Also using an Animator +1. Anwig Salade is acc+13 attack+5 pet: haste+5, Mirke Wardecors is acc+10 pet: acc+15/r.acc+15.





If none of that makes sense btw, lemme know.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:52pm by bsphil
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#10 Mar 24 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's much less difference in our gear then I would have expected.

Ulthalam's Ring - don't have, I use either Sniper's or Iota's
Pantin Cape - @#%^ing drop gdi. Going to get Odin's DA+1% back piece instead of my Belli.
Creek M mitts - Using Enkidu's
Faith Torque over the PCC (Due to expenses)

My Anwig is STR+4 WS:acc+15, the other stats are RNG based so make no effect to my PUP, but it's still the best WS piece I can get.

Mirke is all RNG stats.

ASA legs are BLMs

Using Wagh, hoping to get some good Oberon's tomorrow

The big difference is going to be then, I guess, merits. I'm far from capped and I'm assuming you are capped. (See below)

1/8 H2H (QQ, gave up on PUP for awhile to refocus on BLM)
Group1
5/5 Magic skill
Group2
1/1 RoleReversal
1/1 Vent
2/5 Optimisation
0/3 Fine-Tuning

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 11:08pm by MagingMartin
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#11 Mar 24 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Overlord MagingMartin wrote:
There's much less difference in our gear then I would have expected.

Ulthalam's Ring - don't have, I use either Sniper's or Iota's
Pantin Cape - @#%^ing drop gdi.
Creek M mitts - Using Enkidu's
Faith Torque over the PCC

My Anwig is STR+4 WS:acc+15, the other stats are RNG based so make no effect to my PUP, but it's still the best WS piece I can get.

Mirke is all RNG stats.

ASA legs are BLMs

Using Wagh, hoping to get some good Oberon's tomorrow

The big difference is going to be then, I guess, merits. I'm far from capped and I'm assuming you are capped. (See below)

1/8 H2H (QQ, gave up on PUP for awhile to refocus on BLM)
Group1
5/5 Magic skill
Group2
1/1 RoleReversal
1/1 Vent
2/5 Optimisation
0/3 Fine-Tuning
Yeah if I had Enkidu hands I'd be using those for WS instead. Faith Torque is pretty nice too, that would push me up another point of DMG but would mean that even h2h+10 on oberon's wouldn't give me any more DMG than I already get.

Any merits involving PUP are all capped:

5/5 STR

4/4 crit+
4/4 enemy crit-

8/8 h2h

5/5 automaton melee skill
5/5 automaton magic skill

1/5 ventriloquy
1/5 role reversal
3/5 fine-tuning
5/5 optimization
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
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#12 Mar 24 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I can definitely see the major difference between us Smiley: lol

The depressing thing is I need 118 merits to match you Smiley: glare

I'll just aim for 8/8 H2H for now, then finish up optimisation before doing 5/5 melee skill on automaton I think.

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#13 Mar 24 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Heh I merit too much...
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#14 Mar 26 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Went PUP/NIN once with SS with my noob climbing static just because I **** well wanted to. SS definitely helped the WHM out and I could hold my own damage wise and take care of some mobs solo. Haven't tried vs bosses yet, since we have crappy luck and haven't gotten very far.
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#15 Mar 26 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Back when i used to play, I used to do Nyzul as MNK, solely for the fact that I didn't trust other people to tank some of those mobs (F**king stupid when you wipe to an enemy leader cos of some overzealous idiot...), but with the addition of this PUPdate, I'd still wonder if PUP would be better in there (For example, could you deploy an auto out of range of chariot AoEs?, and would you be able to reliably hold hate to make it viable?).
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I couldn't decide which movie to see last-week, I put up an Ice Maneuver and BOOM, my automaton immediately figured it out for me.
#16 Mar 26 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Disclaimer: I tend to come COR/DNC to all Nyzul these days, and I've become very used to it and it's my go to Nyzul job. I'm probably still gonna keep coming COR, main healer, DDx3, and a 6th (preferably THF). The setup just works too well, COR buffs help a ton on bosses, Light Shot is super useful in Nyzul, Wild Card in a pinch, DDs are easy to get to fill the party, etc. BUT...

I always enjoyed PUP in Nyzul floor climbs, but I never liked taking it to boss floors before. Master damage was mediocre compared to other DDs, and pet damage was pretty weak on the bosses. Regular floors you are pretty potent though, especially if you're using Spiritreaver (which I did). When you run into something like magic weak mobs with a party full of SAMs, MNKs, and the like... having those Tier IV nukes is MASSIVELY helpful to the group. And even if you don't run into that kind of stuff, you're no slouch.

The big change now is like what bsphil mentions:
Quote:
The biggest deal of all of this is probably that PUP is going to be able to hold its own as a DD without the automaton at all.


I agree, and that means PUP is now not at as much of a disadvantage on boss floors. Before it was a beast on the climb but less of an asset on bosses, now it's no worse than another solid DD. Truly zerg-capable jobs should still perform better on the boss fights themselves, but a PUP is legit and if you don't have those more zerg-focused DDs you're not gonna embarrass yourself.

Other cool PUP Nyzul things:
* Leaving the puppet to help the party kill off a tough mob (family, leader, an NM, etc.) and running back to the rune! You can deal damage while not even with the party, and that's pretty awesome.

* Hermes' Sandals. Helps a ton in finding mobs, running to rune, finding lamps, etc. 12% movement speed is NOT to be underestimated in Nyzul. You should want these awesome shoes anyway, but if you spend any decent amount of time in Nyzul on PUP (or COR MNK WAR), you should want them even more.
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#17 Mar 27 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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Oh man, I haven't done Nyzul in a while.

Pup was good for our setup back then too. Now, I'm sure it'd be even better with all of the other shiny pup gear I have. :3
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#18 Mar 27 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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I do all my nyzuls now exclusively on pup. I refuse to go as drg anymore because i lose the utility of nukes and things like stona when needed and flashbulb. I'm almost done with my nyzul mythic requirement too, only 7 runs away.


Quote:
Other cool PUP Nyzul things:
* Leaving the puppet to help the party kill off a tough mob (family, leader, an NM, etc.) and running back to the rune! You can deal damage while not even with the party, and that's pretty awesome.


I think this is one of the coolest thing about pup in nyzul. You can even use maneuvers from any where in the entire zone.
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#19 Mar 27 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Very nice Bsphil, even without Usu.

I've got TP:
Hades/Waghs/Birdbanes (Tried so many Augment H2H >.>)
Animator +1
Peacock Amulet
Brutal
Ethereal
Enkidu
Pantin Gloves
Iota or Ulth in Assaults
Rajas
Pantin Cape
Swift
ASA Legs (Acc+7 Haste+3)
Puppet Feet+1

WS:
Moogle Hat (STR+4/WSacc+15 and Acc+10/Att+5)
Soil Gorget
Puppet Gloves +1
Potent Belt

Working on those Hazmat feet for 2% haste, and maybe Goliard body to get up to 21% haste. Can buy final ASA crap now, so i want to try and get a Haste+5 belt from that. 22% haste on PUP go!
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#20 Mar 27 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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BLM Automaton annihilates Ebony Puddings, need to be very good with Vent/Role Rev though.
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#21 Mar 27 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spiritreaver is also great on Chariots, and where you don't want to feed the mob too much TP (AoE, etc), and for MB if your Nyzul group advocates that.

The one downside is on custards who absorb fire or ice damage (I forget which one Spiritreaver uses by default), as it will heal the custard for a lot of hp.
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#22 Mar 27 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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The in built scanner does nothing to prevent that?
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#23 Mar 27 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Nope
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#24 Mar 30 2010 at 1:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
I really do think we're going to end up going the way of MNK (at least partially) and need to sub /NIN drastically more often. If not, /DRG, for a haste boost, extra accuracy, and a (small) amount of hate shedding ability for doing things like ventriloquy -> high jump.

The biggest deal of all of this is probably that PUP is going to be able to hold its own as a DD without the automaton at all. That bodes fairly decently at least for the bottom of the barrel PUPs that don't understand how to gear and use automatons. PUP is becoming borderline overpowered in the way that people seem to assume SAM is. The funniest part is that this makes PUP way more potent than when Magic Mortar first came out, but since the damage isn't condensed into one shot (or at least into one player/npc instead of split in two) nobody is going to realize how strong PUP is. Not only that, people will still by in large prefer to take even well geared PUPs over lesser geared players on other jobs.


It's definitely looking like /WAR is losing it's place, at least for merits, and other stuff without a dedicated tank. Just had my first merit party on PUP post-H2H update, and I gave new meaning to the term "MP-Sink" even before weapon skilling I was constantly pulling hate, to the point where light maneuver (Flashbulb) was getting constantly cycled in with the normal Wind, Thunder, Fire, and Dark just so I could survive.

Parse numbers came out to this, keeping in mind that I had to hold back a bit to keep from dying, and that one of the SAMs looked like this.

Gonna have to try a merit party with /NIN soon, to see how that works out.
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~~ Puppetmaster // Scholar // Thief // Dancer // Blue Mage // Corsair // Geomancer // Ninja // Ranger // Summoner ~~
#25 Mar 30 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
I just picked up a wyvern earring a couple days ago and have been using /DRG on PUP. Have been pretty satisfied with the compromise from losing /WAR so far.
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#26 Mar 30 2010 at 5:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,236 posts
Very impressive parse, there. Comforting to see such pups exist. Now why can't I ever find the pups like that when I merit, and instead get the ones that make the cor look like a melee god?

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