Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

PUP in Nyzul (and subjob perspectives)Follow

#1 Mar 24 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
At least in Nyzul Isle, since I haven't had a chance to try something else yet, PUP is getting ridiculously potent. Even as PUP/NIN I'm able to stay competitive with other DDs, and that's NOT counting the damage from my automaton. With the boost to mana tanks, Spiritreaver is able to keep up very well and on all 3 of the climbing runs I did today, it matched my damage as master. Was eating pizza and using full haste gear and was able to easily cap hitrate for the entire climb.

Just recently I joined a floor 100 run on PUP/WAR, just to see how useful I would be on a more difficult boss fight. Needless to say, I've never wished more that I was subbing something other than /WAR. I never even used berserk until the boss floor - I was taking hate too often even without it. I actually ended up parsing as the top DD on cerberus, again, without counting my automaton's damage, against a SAM, a MNK, and an adaberk WAR. I swapped out to valoredge while we were buffing up. Wasn't really sure how to go about it, but I knew that the bosses on 60/80/100 resist magic really badly.

I really do think we're going to end up going the way of MNK (at least partially) and need to sub /NIN drastically more often. If not, /DRG, for a haste boost, extra accuracy, and a (small) amount of hate shedding ability for doing things like ventriloquy -> high jump.

The biggest deal of all of this is probably that PUP is going to be able to hold its own as a DD without the automaton at all. That bodes fairly decently at least for the bottom of the barrel PUPs that don't understand how to gear and use automatons. PUP is becoming borderline overpowered in the way that people seem to assume SAM is. The funniest part is that this makes PUP way more potent than when Magic Mortar first came out, but since the damage isn't condensed into one shot (or at least into one player/npc instead of split in two) nobody is going to realize how strong PUP is. Not only that, people will still by in large prefer to take even well geared PUPs over lesser geared players on other jobs.

Oh and here's a picture of the chat log at floor 100. The WAR couldn't voke hate off of me even after he WS'd before I did.

Screenshot



Edited, Mar 24th 2010 3:25am by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#3 Mar 24 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Excellent
**
502 posts
PuppetPride wrote:
Time to go punch some crabs in the face.


Maybe it was the crab lobby that knocked PUP hand-to-hand skill down from A to B+.
#4 Mar 24 2010 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
**
686 posts
I really hope you guys can keep it up outside of Nyzul too.

Just curious though, how well geared were you compared to the other DDs? I saw the WAR had Adaberk, but aside from that, were they well geared/merited compared to you? I am just asking since you actually beat them without counting your auto which is pretty sick. I guess that difference might be needed when it comes to tougher mobs and the B/A discrepency in skill really starts to show, but still... wow. :)


#5 Mar 24 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Excellent
**
285 posts
Did you face anything with nasty AoE or do the defensive attachments make a difference? This may not be a problem anymore with the pupdate however i climbed 1 > 100 on pup but wouldnt dare take it to boss floors since i was worried about Cara getting killed off right away and not being able to go pup anymore lol.

On a side note.....im sick off punching crabs in the face T.T
____________________________


February 11, 1926 – November 28, 2010
Leslie Nielsen. Shirley, he will be missed.
#6 Mar 24 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
917 posts
Awesome account Bsphil! Its good to hear actual experiences from other PUP after this update. I took PUP a few times on my climb to 100, very nice to hear that others are doing the same and having even better results now.


Quote:
I really hope you guys can keep it up outside of Nyzul too.

Just curious though, how well geared were you compared to the other DDs? I saw the WAR had Adaberk, but aside from that, were they well geared/merited compared to you? I am just asking since you actually beat them without counting your auto which is pretty sick. I guess that difference might be needed when it comes to tougher mobs and the B/A discrepency in skill really starts to show, but still... wow. :)



Oh, its the same on mobs outside of Nyzul as well.

OTW to 'necropolis to work on Magian weapon with a buddy, we decided to try popping the VWNM in Batallia. I was PUP/NIN with Soulsoother setup and he was MNK/NIN in full Uksune. Also had a PLD/DNC buddy come along too. We handled the tier one ele's no problem. When Skuld popped though, we had to reconfigure our pt(this NM Pixie is crazy btw. CS and access to high lvl BLM spells, prepare to kite CS).

That in and of itself was expected. HOW we reconfigured was not. We drafted a WHM come help, the PLD swappped to /NIN-then it gets weird but very nice. Without even discussing it really, Uksune MNK decided to go swap to RDM. His reasoning was that me as PUP/NIN plus a reconfigured DD Automaton would be enough DD if it meant support for the PLD and WHM.

And it totally was. When we popped Skuld again, it was a cakewalk. Final setup: PLD, WHM, RDM, and PUP(me); beat this mob with ease. Skuld is lvl 85 at least i think.

Might not mean much to other ppl, but this was a huge outing imo. The fact that it never even occurred to ANY of my associates to have me swap to another job for this, beyond awesome.

But back to the main topic really quickly, speaking for myself, /WAR, /NIN, /DNC-normal subs my PUP will be using; and /RDM or /SCH -f i am ever asked to stay in the back(which i don't think will be happening anytime soon unless its just a mob that physical DD in general can't be on.)
____________________________
[ffxisig]10000[/ffxisig]
----------------------------------
One of my server's brightest minds... wrote:
Not to make too extreme a comparison, but Rog is like Nelson Mandella...


Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#7 Mar 24 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
xxAnikalxx wrote:
Did you face anything with nasty AoE or do the defensive attachments make a difference? This may not be a problem anymore with the pupdate however i climbed 1 > 100 on pup but wouldnt dare take it to boss floors since i was worried about Cara getting killed off right away and not being able to go pup anymore lol.

On a side note.....im sick off punching crabs in the face T.T
Well, Gate of Hades spam got to be pretty annoying. I ended up dying at about 5% because nobody could pull hate off me and the healers were paralyzed from Ululation. The other DDs finished cerb off within a few seconds after that.

No drop, of course.

Screenshot
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#8 Mar 24 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,793 posts
Hey Bsphil, do you have links to your gearsets? I'd be interested in comparing them with my own gear, which while I feel isn't shabby, sounds like it doesn't come close to comparing with yours

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:47pm by MagingMartin
____________________________
Proud PUP of Phoenix.
Jobs: PUP COR RNG BLM NIN WHM 90
Member of Finale.
My Blog
#9 Mar 24 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
Overlord MagingMartin wrote:
Hey Bsphil, do you have links to your gearsets? I'd be interested in comparing them with my own gear, which while I feel isn't shabby, sounds like it doesn't come close to comparing with yours
Nothing that stellar to write home about. Suppose just posting the xml would be a bit easier.

<variables> 
	<var name="TPlear">Diabolos's Earring</var> 
	<var name="pants">Herder's Subligar</var> 
</variables> 
 
<sets> 
	<group name="Haste" inherit="Acc"> 
		<set name="TP"> 
			<head>Walahra Turban</head> 
			<neck>Peacock Charm</neck> 
			<lear>$TPlear</lear> 
			<rear>Brutal Earring</rear> 
			<body>Goliard Saio</body> 
			<hands>Pantin Dastanas</hands> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Ulthalam's Ring</rring> 
			<back>Pantin Cape</back> 
			<waist>Swift Belt</waist> 
			<legs>$pants</legs> 
			<feet>Puppetry Babouches +1</feet> 
		</set> 
		<set name="SP" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<neck>Flame Gorget</neck> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Surge Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="HF" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
		</set> 
	</group> 
	<group name="Acc" default="yes"> 
		<set name="idle" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Pantin Taj</head> 
			<legs>Herder's Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<neck>Peacock Charm</neck> 
			<lear>$TPlear</lear> 
			<rear>Brutal Earring</rear> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Pantin Dastanas</hands> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Ulthalam's Ring</rring> 
			<back>Pantin Cape</back> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>$pants</legs> 
			<feet>Puppetry Babouches +1</feet> 
		</set> 
		<set name="haste"> 
			<head>Walahra Turban</head> 
			<waist>Swift Belt</waist> 
			<body>Goliard Saio</body> 
			<hands>Pantin Dastanas</hands> 
		</set> 
		<set name="SP" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<neck>Flame Gorget</neck> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Surge Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="HF" BaseSet="TP"> 
			<head>Anwig Salade</head> 
			<body>Mirke Wardecors</body> 
			<hands>Creek M Mitts</hands> 
			<waist>Life Belt</waist> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Maneuver"> 
			<hands>Puppetry Dastanas</hands> 
			<neck>Buffoon's Collar</neck> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Fire" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
			<feet>Puppetry Babouches +1</feet> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Ruby Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Enkidu's Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Ice" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<body>Errant Houppelande</body> 
			<feet>Pantin Babouches</feet> 
			<lring>Diamond Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Omega Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Mahatma Slops</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Wind" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Earth" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<feet>Creek M Clomps</feet> 
			<legs>Pantin Churidars</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Thunder" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<lring>Rajas Ring</lring> 
			<legs>Enkidu's Subligar</legs> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Water" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<head>Errant Hat</head> 
			<body>Errant Houppelande</body> 
			<lring>Sapphire Ring</lring> 
			<rring>Omega Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Mahatma Slops</legs> 
			<back>Rainbow Cape</back> 
			<feet>Mahatma Pigaches</feet> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Light" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<head>Errant Hat</head> 
			<body>Errant Houppelande</body> 
			<rring>Omega Ring</rring> 
			<legs>Mahatma Slops</legs> 
			<back>Rainbow Cape</back> 
		</set> 
		<set name="Dark" BaseSet="Maneuver"> 
			<head>Walahra Turban</head> 
			<body>Goliard Saio</body> 
			<feet>Mahatma Pigaches</feet> 
			<rear>Insomnia Earring</rear> 
			<lring>Demon's Ring +1</lring> 
			<rring>Demon's Ring +1</rring> 
			<waist>Qiqirn Sash +1</waist> 
			<back>Rainbow Cape</back> 
		</set> 
	</group> 
</sets> 


I also have an evasion group not listed but it's so sh*tty that I don't really ever use it. Pretty much the only unique piece is o.hat. I'll eventually get around to fleshing that out.

I have 6 gear swap macros. Two to change the $pants variable between Pantin and Herder's depending if I have a melee frame out, two to change the $TPlear back and forth between Fenrir's Earring and Diabolos's earring depending on the time of day, and two to swap between my haste group and my acc group. For pretty much everything in nyzul I used the haste group. I swapped to the acc group for the floor 100 boss but I actually had a 100% hitrate with pizza and my acc gear (39 hits 0 misses), so maybe I need to look into a haste+pet stat set. Need a damn Spurrer's...

For h2h I'm using these:

Screenshot


Which are basically the equivalent of Hades Sainti with attack+12 (DD wise at least). Also using an Animator +1. Anwig Salade is acc+13 attack+5 pet: haste+5, Mirke Wardecors is acc+10 pet: acc+15/r.acc+15.





If none of that makes sense btw, lemme know.

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 5:52pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#10 Mar 24 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,793 posts
There's much less difference in our gear then I would have expected.

Ulthalam's Ring - don't have, I use either Sniper's or Iota's
Pantin Cape - @#%^ing drop gdi. Going to get Odin's DA+1% back piece instead of my Belli.
Creek M mitts - Using Enkidu's
Faith Torque over the PCC (Due to expenses)

My Anwig is STR+4 WS:acc+15, the other stats are RNG based so make no effect to my PUP, but it's still the best WS piece I can get.

Mirke is all RNG stats.

ASA legs are BLMs

Using Wagh, hoping to get some good Oberon's tomorrow

The big difference is going to be then, I guess, merits. I'm far from capped and I'm assuming you are capped. (See below)

1/8 H2H (QQ, gave up on PUP for awhile to refocus on BLM)
Group1
5/5 Magic skill
Group2
1/1 RoleReversal
1/1 Vent
2/5 Optimisation
0/3 Fine-Tuning

Edited, Mar 24th 2010 11:08pm by MagingMartin
____________________________
Proud PUP of Phoenix.
Jobs: PUP COR RNG BLM NIN WHM 90
Member of Finale.
My Blog
#11 Mar 24 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
Overlord MagingMartin wrote:
There's much less difference in our gear then I would have expected.

Ulthalam's Ring - don't have, I use either Sniper's or Iota's
Pantin Cape - @#%^ing drop gdi.
Creek M mitts - Using Enkidu's
Faith Torque over the PCC

My Anwig is STR+4 WS:acc+15, the other stats are RNG based so make no effect to my PUP, but it's still the best WS piece I can get.

Mirke is all RNG stats.

ASA legs are BLMs

Using Wagh, hoping to get some good Oberon's tomorrow

The big difference is going to be then, I guess, merits. I'm far from capped and I'm assuming you are capped. (See below)

1/8 H2H (QQ, gave up on PUP for awhile to refocus on BLM)
Group1
5/5 Magic skill
Group2
1/1 RoleReversal
1/1 Vent
2/5 Optimisation
0/3 Fine-Tuning
Yeah if I had Enkidu hands I'd be using those for WS instead. Faith Torque is pretty nice too, that would push me up another point of DMG but would mean that even h2h+10 on oberon's wouldn't give me any more DMG than I already get.

Any merits involving PUP are all capped:

5/5 STR

4/4 crit+
4/4 enemy crit-

8/8 h2h

5/5 automaton melee skill
5/5 automaton magic skill

1/5 ventriloquy
1/5 role reversal
3/5 fine-tuning
5/5 optimization
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#12 Mar 24 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,793 posts
Yeah, I can definitely see the major difference between us Smiley: lol

The depressing thing is I need 118 merits to match you Smiley: glare

I'll just aim for 8/8 H2H for now, then finish up optimisation before doing 5/5 melee skill on automaton I think.

____________________________
Proud PUP of Phoenix.
Jobs: PUP COR RNG BLM NIN WHM 90
Member of Finale.
My Blog
#13 Mar 24 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
Heh I merit too much...
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#14 Mar 26 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
358 posts
Went PUP/NIN once with SS with my noob climbing static just because I damn well wanted to. SS definitely helped the WHM out and I could hold my own damage wise and take care of some mobs solo. Haven't tried vs bosses yet, since we have crappy luck and haven't gotten very far.
____________________________
RDM80 BST76 PUP80 /Retired Subligar Princess
SERVER: Shiva LS: GotJugs
#15 Mar 26 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
561 posts
Back when i used to play, I used to do Nyzul as MNK, solely for the fact that I didn't trust other people to tank some of those mobs (F**king stupid when you wipe to an enemy leader cos of some overzealous idiot...), but with the addition of this PUPdate, I'd still wonder if PUP would be better in there (For example, could you deploy an auto out of range of chariot AoEs?, and would you be able to reliably hold hate to make it viable?).
____________________________
Kairyu
75 MNK: The "Star breaker"
75 PUP: The "Master of manipulation"
Asura server

Quote:
Hey now, that "decision-making time" is very useful.
I couldn't decide which movie to see last-week, I put up an Ice Maneuver and BOOM, my automaton immediately figured it out for me.
#16 Mar 26 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
2,865 posts
Disclaimer: I tend to come COR/DNC to all Nyzul these days, and I've become very used to it and it's my go to Nyzul job. I'm probably still gonna keep coming COR, main healer, DDx3, and a 6th (preferably THF). The setup just works too well, COR buffs help a ton on bosses, Light Shot is super useful in Nyzul, Wild Card in a pinch, DDs are easy to get to fill the party, etc. BUT...

I always enjoyed PUP in Nyzul floor climbs, but I never liked taking it to boss floors before. Master damage was mediocre compared to other DDs, and pet damage was pretty weak on the bosses. Regular floors you are pretty potent though, especially if you're using Spiritreaver (which I did). When you run into something like magic weak mobs with a party full of SAMs, MNKs, and the like... having those Tier IV nukes is MASSIVELY helpful to the group. And even if you don't run into that kind of stuff, you're no slouch.

The big change now is like what bsphil mentions:
Quote:
The biggest deal of all of this is probably that PUP is going to be able to hold its own as a DD without the automaton at all.


I agree, and that means PUP is now not at as much of a disadvantage on boss floors. Before it was a beast on the climb but less of an asset on bosses, now it's no worse than another solid DD. Truly zerg-capable jobs should still perform better on the boss fights themselves, but a PUP is legit and if you don't have those more zerg-focused DDs you're not gonna embarrass yourself.

Other cool PUP Nyzul things:
* Leaving the puppet to help the party kill off a tough mob (family, leader, an NM, etc.) and running back to the rune! You can deal damage while not even with the party, and that's pretty awesome.

* Hermes' Sandals. Helps a ton in finding mobs, running to rune, finding lamps, etc. 12% movement speed is NOT to be underestimated in Nyzul. You should want these awesome shoes anyway, but if you spend any decent amount of time in Nyzul on PUP (or COR MNK WAR), you should want them even more.
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#17 Mar 27 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
681 posts
Oh man, I haven't done Nyzul in a while.

Pup was good for our setup back then too. Now, I'm sure it'd be even better with all of the other shiny pup gear I have. :3
____________________________
-SuperTiM-, Lakshmi Server
Maat: [O] January 08, 2006 @ Level 66SMN
Yinyang Robe: [O] May 22, 2006
Summoner's Set: 5/5 FINALLY > March 25, 2009

Jobs: SMN75, PUP75, WHM75
#18 Mar 27 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,007 posts
I do all my nyzuls now exclusively on pup. I refuse to go as drg anymore because i lose the utility of nukes and things like stona when needed and flashbulb. I'm almost done with my nyzul mythic requirement too, only 7 runs away.


Quote:
Other cool PUP Nyzul things:
* Leaving the puppet to help the party kill off a tough mob (family, leader, an NM, etc.) and running back to the rune! You can deal damage while not even with the party, and that's pretty awesome.


I think this is one of the coolest thing about pup in nyzul. You can even use maneuvers from any where in the entire zone.
____________________________
(I don't speak any Non-Pet)
-Kairos lvl300 petmaster Caitsith
-----------------
This resulted in a backlash from the PLD. "He saved u lot from dying by using his 2hour!" *eyeroll* Bitch, please. I'm a mother-@#%^ing-DRAGOON. -Kellinda (Live Journal)
#19 Mar 27 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
69 posts
Very nice Bsphil, even without Usu.

I've got TP:
Hades/Waghs/Birdbanes (Tried so many Augment H2H >.>)
Animator +1
Peacock Amulet
Brutal
Ethereal
Enkidu
Pantin Gloves
Iota or Ulth in Assaults
Rajas
Pantin Cape
Swift
ASA Legs (Acc+7 Haste+3)
Puppet Feet+1

WS:
Moogle Hat (STR+4/WSacc+15 and Acc+10/Att+5)
Soil Gorget
Puppet Gloves +1
Potent Belt

Working on those Hazmat feet for 2% haste, and maybe Goliard body to get up to 21% haste. Can buy final ASA crap now, so i want to try and get a Haste+5 belt from that. 22% haste on PUP go!
____________________________
Quote:
The day service began for foreigners, Sarutabaruta was just littered with corpses. I would throw a Cure and say something nice, like, “You can do it!” and they would respond with foul language like <[ "You JAP?!" ]> or <[ @#%^ ]> or <[ monkey ]> and such.
#20 Mar 27 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,778 posts
BLM Automaton annihilates Ebony Puddings, need to be very good with Vent/Role Rev though.
____________________________
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Invictus -- William Ernest Henley
#21 Mar 27 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
681 posts
Spiritreaver is also great on Chariots, and where you don't want to feed the mob too much TP (AoE, etc), and for MB if your Nyzul group advocates that.

The one downside is on custards who absorb fire or ice damage (I forget which one Spiritreaver uses by default), as it will heal the custard for a lot of hp.
____________________________
-SuperTiM-, Lakshmi Server
Maat: [O] January 08, 2006 @ Level 66SMN
Yinyang Robe: [O] May 22, 2006
Summoner's Set: 5/5 FINALLY > March 25, 2009

Jobs: SMN75, PUP75, WHM75
#22 Mar 27 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
114 posts
The in built scanner does nothing to prevent that?
____________________________
Diexna from Valefor.
#23 Mar 27 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
681 posts
Nope
____________________________
-SuperTiM-, Lakshmi Server
Maat: [O] January 08, 2006 @ Level 66SMN
Yinyang Robe: [O] May 22, 2006
Summoner's Set: 5/5 FINALLY > March 25, 2009

Jobs: SMN75, PUP75, WHM75
#24 Mar 30 2010 at 1:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
969 posts
bsphil wrote:
I really do think we're going to end up going the way of MNK (at least partially) and need to sub /NIN drastically more often. If not, /DRG, for a haste boost, extra accuracy, and a (small) amount of hate shedding ability for doing things like ventriloquy -> high jump.

The biggest deal of all of this is probably that PUP is going to be able to hold its own as a DD without the automaton at all. That bodes fairly decently at least for the bottom of the barrel PUPs that don't understand how to gear and use automatons. PUP is becoming borderline overpowered in the way that people seem to assume SAM is. The funniest part is that this makes PUP way more potent than when Magic Mortar first came out, but since the damage isn't condensed into one shot (or at least into one player/npc instead of split in two) nobody is going to realize how strong PUP is. Not only that, people will still by in large prefer to take even well geared PUPs over lesser geared players on other jobs.


It's definitely looking like /WAR is losing it's place, at least for merits, and other stuff without a dedicated tank. Just had my first merit party on PUP post-H2H update, and I gave new meaning to the term "MP-Sink" even before weapon skilling I was constantly pulling hate, to the point where light maneuver (Flashbulb) was getting constantly cycled in with the normal Wind, Thunder, Fire, and Dark just so I could survive.

Parse numbers came out to this, keeping in mind that I had to hold back a bit to keep from dying, and that one of the SAMs looked like this.

Gonna have to try a merit party with /NIN soon, to see how that works out.
____________________________
~~ Puppetmaster // Scholar // Thief // Dancer // Blue Mage // Corsair // Geomancer // Ninja // Ranger // Summoner ~~
#25 Mar 30 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
I just picked up a wyvern earring a couple days ago and have been using /DRG on PUP. Have been pretty satisfied with the compromise from losing /WAR so far.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#26 Mar 30 2010 at 5:26 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Very impressive parse, there. Comforting to see such pups exist. Now why can't I ever find the pups like that when I merit, and instead get the ones that make the cor look like a melee god?

#27 Mar 30 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
**
697 posts
You make a good point Bsphil. This latest pupdate does shake up the norm quite a bit.

I have always enjoyed PUP in Nyzul Isle and even though I hate /NIN for any party situation, we can not be a drain on the team by sucking mp. We all need to test the waters a bit to see just what we can pull off. Dead PUPs do not contribute and while resorting to /NIN does not make me happy, using Soulsoother just to keep me alive in a party environment would make no sense at all.

I really need to experiment with /DRG a bit more. I think this update makes it overtake /WAR to be the sub of choice in a party environment.

I usually run Nyzul Isle with folks I know, but for any pick-up/shout groups with folks I don't know, I think going /NIN makes the most sense.
____________________________
Shadechaos of Seraph Bismarck
R.I.P. Cindy 2.26.56 - 4.18.13
~She made a difference~
#28 Mar 30 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,748 posts
ya I was thinking about /drg, get other benefits by using high jump to shed some hate after vent is used also, and att and acc trait dont hurt either.
____________________________
BANNED
#29 Apr 03 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
SuperTiM wrote:
Spiritreaver is also great on Chariots, and where you don't want to feed the mob too much TP (AoE, etc), and for MB if your Nyzul group advocates that.

The one downside is on custards who absorb fire or ice damage (I forget which one Spiritreaver uses by default), as it will heal the custard for a lot of hp.


I've never done Nyzul yet, and I haven't fought flans yet, but I'm curious... if subbing NIN, would the Ichi wheel land reliably enough to trigger the spell you want?
#30 Apr 03 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
**
376 posts
well although elemental ninjutsu cant be resisted, i -think- the effects can be semi-resisted. so although thats a gret idea, im not sure if it would change the spell, and probably wouldnt want to risk trying
____________________________


#31 Apr 03 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
2,865 posts
LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
SuperTiM wrote:
Spiritreaver is also great on Chariots, and where you don't want to feed the mob too much TP (AoE, etc), and for MB if your Nyzul group advocates that.

The one downside is on custards who absorb fire or ice damage (I forget which one Spiritreaver uses by default), as it will heal the custard for a lot of hp.


I've never done Nyzul yet, and I haven't fought flans yet, but I'm curious... if subbing NIN, would the Ichi wheel land reliably enough to trigger the spell you want?


Good idea, but unfortunately it doesn't generally work.

The Spiritreaver's built in Scanner AI (and the Scanner attachment) doesn't consider whether a mob is weak to a certain spell, only if the spell it would normally choose is likely to be resisted. Assuming conditions for a nuke are met (influenced by attachments, maneuvers, mob HP, puppet HP/MP, etc.), Spiritreaver will default to its highest level nuke. The recast timer for that individual spell may not be ready at next cast, so in that case the automaton will just go with its next highest nuke.

So, for example, you will often see SR with 5/5 Magic merits use Blizzard IV, followed up by Fire IV on the next cast because BlizzIV isn't yet ready. Suppose that mob was resistant to Fire though... what you'd see on the second nuke would instead be Aero IV, the next highest level spell.

Now let's take another situation - the mob isn't resistant to either Blizzard or Fire, but it DOES happen to be weak to Earth. Too bad. If the AI doesn't find that there's a sufficiently high chance of a resist, it will stick to its normal priority (Blizz > Fire > Aero > Water > Stone).

This is also the reason that if a mob is resistant to ALL types of magic, you'll run into situations where the puppet won't nuke at all. It finds that there's a high chance of resist for every element, so it won't even try.

Quote:
custards


So tying this back to Custards... They don't resist the element that heals them. So the automaton won't hold back on unleashing that spell if it's what would normally result from the standard automaton priority. Ichi enfeebles don't do anything to fix this, as they only make the mob less resistant to a certain element. And since the automaton doesn't care if there's a nuke that would be STRONG on a particular mob as long as the "higher priority" nuke won't be resisted, Ninjutsu enfeebles aren't too helpful (i.e. you can't weaken the mob to a lower priority element to force that nuke).

In practice, what this means is that you need to pay attention to what your highest level available nuke is. If you have 5/5 merits, that's Blizzard IV. That means when you run into a custard that is healed by Blizz, don't use nukes. You might want to take that time to load up on Dark Maneuvers for refresh/Economizer, Lights for Drain, etc. You should also pay attention to your SECOND highest nuke, to be sure you don't nuke too fast and have that come out on a mob that would be healed by it. You might want to nuke once with the higher nuke, then retrieve for longer than usual to ensure you don't get a follow-up with the nuke that would cure.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2010 3:13pm by Anza
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#32 Apr 03 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
312 posts
Quote:
Spiritreaver will default to its highest level nuke. The recast timer for that individual spell may not be ready at next cast, so in that case the automaton will just go with its next highest nuke.


i dont believe this. i capped magic at 75 and had a couple blm's in ls want me to manaburn puddings. id put up 2ice 1 water(since no condenser, just recently fixed that) and the puppet would cast thunder 3. it should have access to aero 4 but i couldnt get it to cast any tier IV spells. always thunder 3 or bliz 3 if recast wasnt up. it was pretty cool that an unmerited thunder III could almost do the same damage as blm AMII. by almost i mean a couple 100 off.
____________________________
99war 99mnk 96whm 99blm 90rdm 99thf 85pld 99bst 99brd 99drg
99blu 99pup 60sch 99dnc 99nin 99sam
50/50 glavoid shells
50/50 itz scales
6/75 orthrus claws
#33 Apr 03 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
The reason I asked was because I read this post a while back.

Princess Jinte wrote:
Another interesting trick with /nin:

Well, honestly we already can do this, but it's annoying; elemental jutsu to force a nuke. come 80/40+, we get :ni's, which are a lot faster than :ichi, and far more practical. It's one of those annoying things about spiritreaver's nuke choices; such as casting Water IV on Tinnin, even though he's weak to lightning/earth, and the puppet better spells. If you hit the mob with an ele-resist down effect, such as elemental ninjutsu, it has a strong influence on the pet's nuke choice. Bust out a huton to force Bliz 4, for example. This is especially nice /nin, as the ele resist takes effect regardless of the spell's damage.

For those that haven't seen this/don't believe me, try manaburning with a blm, watch when they use AM/AM2, and then deploy to nuke immediately after they land their nuke, your pet will almost always nuke with the element strong to the AM/2 used. It's really annoying when they throw out Burst 2 right before you nuke and your puppet lobs off Stone IV over Blizzard IV Smiley: motz


Is the reason that worked like that because flans are resistant to magic as a whole, but not to a particular element, or do AMs and/or AMIIs just have a much greater drop in elemental resistance associated with them? From the quote, it looks like Jinte was saying that it did work, but I donno if a partial effect resistance could account for both what he and Anza are saying to be correct at times...

I just barely hit 74 the other night and I didn't feel safe to sub NIN before that, but I think I might buy some Ichi scrolls and see what happens for myself now that I have. It's kind of like how I've been wanting to test my sneaking suspicion that the Tactical Processor might effect -na spell/aspir/drian priority with Ice up, but I've felt it was too risky to test up until now... (I can't seem to find any posts regarding it, but I think it would be funny if SE made it work that way and ignored the pleas of the PUPs because the frames already work properly... If anyone's already tested this, please let me know.Smiley: smile)
#34 Apr 03 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
**
376 posts
Quote:
i dont believe this. i capped magic at 75 and had a couple blm's in ls want me to manaburn puddings. id put up 2ice 1 water(since no condenser, just recently fixed that) and the puppet would cast thunder 3. it should have access to aero 4 but i couldnt get it to cast any tier IV spells. always thunder 3 or bliz 3 if recast wasnt up. it was pretty cool that an unmerited thunder III could almost do the same damage as blm AMII. by almost i mean a couple 100 off.


the AI makes the automaton cast the spell that it thinks will deal the most damage with the least amount of resist. or.. no idea what would cause your auto to do that lol. but if somehow you got your auto to nearly rival AM2 with a tier 3 spell, i'd just trust it knows what its doing
____________________________


#35 Apr 03 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
561 posts
Quote:
dont believe this. i capped magic at 75 and had a couple blm's in ls want me to manaburn puddings. id put up 2ice 1 water(since no condenser, just recently fixed that) and the puppet would cast thunder 3. it should have access to aero 4 but i couldnt get it to cast any tier IV spells. always thunder 3 or bliz 3 if recast wasnt up. it was pretty cool that an unmerited thunder III could almost do the same damage as blm AMII. by almost i mean a couple 100 off.
Thunder element probably had the least chance to resist, is my bet.
____________________________
Kairyu
75 MNK: The "Star breaker"
75 PUP: The "Master of manipulation"
Asura server

Quote:
Hey now, that "decision-making time" is very useful.
I couldn't decide which movie to see last-week, I put up an Ice Maneuver and BOOM, my automaton immediately figured it out for me.
#36 Apr 05 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
2,865 posts
LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
The reason I asked was because I read this post a while back.


Here's the thing... it's possible to trigger nukes on some mobs by lowering resist of one element with an elemental Ninjutsu to the extent where some other element has a higher chance of resist. I don't think what Jinte is saying is inconsistent with this trick NOT working on Nyzul puddings though:

If a mob has very little/no resistance to a certain nuke (as I believe is the case for Nyzul puddings which are HEALED by certain nukes), you can't get any other element to have a lower resist rate. Same thing if a mob has a very low resist rate to the normally higher priority element X, to the extent that even if you lower the resistance to element Y, X still has a lower chance of a resist.

Example #1:
Mob has 20% chance to resist all nukes. If you use ninjutsu to lower the resist rate to, say, wind... you may be able to trigger an Aero IV (instead of the typical priority of Blizz->Fire->Aero). This is sort of what Jinte's discussion is getting at. Let's say Aero would be a stronger nuke - we're trying to find a way to trigger the Automaton to use that, not Blizz or Fire. Well, if we can lower the RESISTANCE to Aero to where it's the least resisted element, that may be enough to get the puppet to choose Aero. Simply knowing "but that mob is WEAK to this element" isn't enough if the higher priority nukes aren't more likely to be resisted.

Example #2:
Mob has 0% Blizzard resistance (I'm not 100% sure this is the case for the puddings that are healed by a particular element, but it's probably at the very least closer to 0% resist than any other element). It doesn't matter what element you weaken the resist rate of, Blizz is the default automaton nuke priority AND there's no chance (or a very small chance) of resist. You won't be able to tell the puppet to choose a nuke other than Blizz. Let's suppose the mob still has a 20% resist rate to all other nukes - even if we act like we did in Example #1 and lower wind resistance, it's still probably going to be a higher resulting wind resist rate than the very minimal chance of resist to Blizzard, so the automaton will still have no reason to deviate from Blizzard (the "normal" AI choice).

Example #3:
Mob has a 50% resist rate to Blizzard, 10% resist rate to Fire. Automaton will choose Fire over the normal choice of Blizzard. This is the most obvious way to show the AI at work in deviating from the standard prioritization of higher level nukes. The lowered resistance of a lower "priority" nuke is what triggers the AI to not follow the standard priority.

Example #4:
Mob has an 90% resist rate to all elements. Spiritreaver (with built in Scanner AI), or an automaton with Scanner attachment, will find the resist rate is so high that it won't nuke at ALL.

And note that for all examples I'm just throwing out these resist rate %ages for illustration's sake. I have no idea of exact resist rates (when a puppet won't nuke at all), what exact amount of quantified "resistance" any mobs have, etc. Point remains the same though - Scanner/Spiritreaver AI is based on avoiding greater elemental resistance, not on looking for potential strengths.

It's really just a quirky bit of AI logic that comes into play quite infrequently. But every once in a while it does rear its head, and the automaton will do seemingly illogical things all while following its AI quite normally.

Princess Jinte wrote:
It's one of those annoying things about spiritreaver's nuke choices; such as casting Water IV on Tinnin, even though he's weak to lightning/earth, and the puppet better spells.


Going back to Jinte's langauge, that makes perfect sense knowing SR's priorities:

1. Blizz IV
2. Fire IV
3. Aero IV
4. Water IV
5. Stone IV
6. Thunder III

Jinte is saying we would love to get Lightning or Earth (or in the absence of those, at least one of the top 3 spells which typically do more damage when they land unresisted). As we can see, Lightning and Earth are the lowest two priority nukes. I'm not super familiar with Tinnin and its resistances, but assuming Jinte has 5/5 merits, we can explain the default choice of Water if Tinnin has a lower chance to resist Water than it does to resist #1-3 on the list. But we don't want Water. We'd REALLY like Stone IV. So, to manipulate the AI we would ideally try to lower resistance to Earth to the point where Earth has a lower resist rate than Water. In that case, it's likely that the automaton would cast Stone IV.

Edited, Apr 5th 2010 6:15pm by Anza
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#37 Apr 13 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
I think I might need to default to /NIN when I merit on PUP now. Finally got around to meriting on PUP. Granted the RDM BRD COR 3xDD party had some crappy buffs (i.e.: not march/march/chaos/corsair, was I think march/minuet/chaos/hunter's) but I ended up doing 40% of the damage with /DRG. The COR was meleeing as well with a joytoy and WSing regularly, so that's 40% out of 3 and a half DDs. I also got haste ~30% of the time when the other DDs got haste fulltime, and even without my automaton I was still on par with the top DD (was actually first by a tiny margin).

I think I'll still be using /DRG from time to time, but at least in that scenario it was still a bit too much offense. Was eating mithkabobs, and in retrospect, the hunter's roll was probably a good idea since the other DDs were a THF/NIN and a polearm SAM/WAR. If he hadn't used it I would have switched to crab sushi though. I also should've brought way more food than I did, I didn't expect to be pulling hate and losing it almost as often as I would on DRG in a good party.

So yeah, for those still curious.

Edited, Apr 13th 2010 5:43pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#38 Apr 13 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
196 posts
That's definately awesome to read! I'm slowly leveling my PUP after swearing I'd never level another pet job. It's much more interactive than I had ever thought possible. Just hit 66 last night and I can't wait to use some of the Cobra gear.

I'm still learning the ropes on how to equip because H2H is different from the other weapon wielding jobs. Been trying to get the right balance, but options are little sparse at lower levels. I either need sushi to hit, but end up with low damage or eat meat and end up missing.

There's still a bunch of gear I need to get and I'm looking at Shikkoku hands and body to go along with Cobra gear. I don't play long stretches at a time so it's difficult to camp NMs.

Eventally I'll get the hang of it all.
#39 Apr 14 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
*
173 posts
figster wrote:
i dont believe this. i capped magic at 75 and had a couple blm's in ls want me to manaburn puddings. id put up 2ice 1 water(since no condenser, just recently fixed that) and the puppet would cast thunder 3. it should have access to aero 4 but i couldnt get it to cast any tier IV spells. always thunder 3 or bliz 3 if recast wasnt up. it was pretty cool that an unmerited thunder III could almost do the same damage as blm AMII. by almost i mean a couple 100 off.

I've noticed this as well, but it still falls in line with what everyone is saying. The puddings must have lower resistance to thunder than aero and stone.
In my case, she likes to cast Fire 4 instead of blizz when: I have no tranquilizer equipped OR tanq equipped but now ice maneuvers up. Having more macc changes the choice in spells due to resistance. So if you have this problem, grab as much macc as you can.

One nice idea for taking on mobs like Tinnin where you'd rather prioritize a different nuke: try different body/head combinations based on the highest possible nuke for that combination. If Tinnin is weak to thunder/earth, go with Harly body and SR head (just DDA more often for mp). If you want thunder/blizz, go with SW/SW combo, which still has a nice mp pool. Food for thought.
____________________________
PUP90
Selka - Bismarck server
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 17 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (17)