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Get ready for the wave of noob PUPsFollow

#27 Mar 01 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
TaimMeich wrote:
What I really don't get is why some people can do so badly in parties with PUP. People keep saying that playing PUP is complicated, but even with the most basic attachments, and doing a cycle of lightning, fire and whatever with Sharpshot they would be contributing good damage to any party. It's as mindless as hitting a macro button once every 20 seconds on average... I don't know, PUP is my first DD job, but even when leveling WAR for sub I wasn't outparsing people SO easily (and I put on it the effort I would if I was leveling it as a main). I think it's actually EASY to do well on PUP.

Maybe I'm overestimating people's skill ability to hit 3 buttons?



Becuase there use to doing this...

oh ja timer up? SPAM BESERK CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK. its up? ok now to space out until I have tp.

That doesn't work with pup. You get a big fat Lightning icon and all your friends laugh at you since it pops up in your log as a status debuff.
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#28 Mar 01 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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HardBacon wrote:
But pup the idea of the job was to utilize the puppet, not really the master as much.
No, the concept of the job was to utilize BOTH the master AND puppet.

TaimMeich wrote:
I think it's actually EASY to do well on PUP.

Maybe I'm overestimating people's skill ability to hit 3 buttons?
Yes. Vastly. There are way too many people doing it wrong for it to be "easier" than a standard DD job like WAR. Plus, having merited on a wide range of jobs including DDs, healers, and BRD, PUP is probably the busiest next to BRD. And realistically, BRD is less work to merit on (but not as fun either).



Edited, Mar 1st 2010 11:29pm by bsphil
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#29 Mar 02 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Good
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Back to the the your OP bsphil, i think your right that their will be an initial bandwagon for PUP soon. But i don't think it will last because of something else you say.

Quote:
Yes. Vastly. There are way too many people doing it wrong for it to be "easier" than a standard DD job like WAR. Plus, having merited on a wide range of jobs including DDs, healers, and BRD, PUP is probably the busiest next to BRD. And realistically, BRD is less work to merit on (but not as fun either).


You nailed it right there. I tell ppl what i'm doing while on PUP and i've been told i was lying a few times. Its just assumed by many non-PUPs that the auto is just a funny looking wyvern and requires no real effort to control.

There are gonna be 2 main things are gonna happen to nip a a huge upsurge in PUP population in the bud imo:

1) Your point, PUP is busy. People are gonna try and play it like a slower MNK and eventually get tired of the auto. Skilling it takes time, upgrading frames takes time and money, its a chore to get some attachments, keeping manuvers up and not overloading takes time, timing, and patience, and etc.

and

2) Sheer amount of money it takes. Like every other PUP that tries to do as best they can, i've literally thrown millions in gil down my auto's throat. And we don't get any of that back. I just don't see "i'm jumping to the next hot job" people shelling out huge amounts of non-recoupable gil on a pet. Especially one they aren't gonna learn how to use properly.


TL;DR


You're right, bandwagon coming; but it wont be pulling in to stay. The land of PUP takes too much effort to really enter for most and the price of admission is quite steep.
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#30 Mar 02 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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I totally agree, I don't think a vast majority of people are ready for what PUP really entails. There's just so much going on in the background that can't be seen in chat logs or in /check from the outside.

I suspect the number of complete strangers leveling as new PUPs that send me tells asking PUP questions is going to drastically increase when I'm idling on it.

And for what it's worth, I never get tells about any other job while I'm idle on it, but I've seriously gotten probably a half dozen tells while idle on PUP75 asking me questions about game mechanics with PUP. Bandwagoners are in for a rude awakening. If people are so desperate as to do a /sea all pup 75 to find me back when PUP was "lol", I can't imagine the traffic post-patch.




Edited, Mar 2nd 2010 1:21am by bsphil
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#31 Mar 02 2010 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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It's already happening on Shiva. I did a /sea all pup and I was shocked to see 35 PUPs online. 22 of which were between Lv. 1 and 20.

The usual number was about 13-15 with most of them Lv. 75

Also members in my endgame shell are trying to buy up all the higher end attachments at the AH before the prices skyrocket.
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#32 Mar 02 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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i love how bandwagoner's think, "if youve got all the gear you must be good at the job" but is it gonna be fun to see how they react to how PUP actually works and if they get it right
#33 Mar 02 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Default
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Oh Yeager, it's you XD. <Huntercat>

so i keep going on my hand to hand merits <6/8>now XD

Actually i prefer SE to change the AI of automation rather than skill up hand to hand skill , such as whm head spread -na even in low hp status and blm head speard aspir and drain rather then ele. magic..........

Some attachements were not seen in AH or it will be sold in a short time such as Tranq. Turbro charge ...etc...
#34 Mar 02 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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14 PUP's on Fairy atm and 13 are 43+ so no new wave here.... unless there all hiding /anon until we get the A skill :P
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#35 Mar 02 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
14 PUP's on Fairy atm and 13 are 43+ so no new wave here.... unless there all hiding /anon until we get the A skill :P


They're there..I'm lving subjobs to 49 right now and have been getting them in my pt's against colibri. With C or A rank no that RNG frame is a beast, and yeah some are waiting to see how the A rank goes for the job.
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#36 Mar 02 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
bsphil wrote:


And for what it's worth, I never get tells about any other job while I'm idle on it, but I've seriously gotten probably a half dozen tells while idle on PUP75 asking me questions about game mechanics with PUP. Bandwagoners are in for a rude awakening. If people are so desperate as to do a /sea all pup 75 to find me back when PUP was "lol", I can't imagine the traffic post-patch.
Edited, Mar 2nd 2010 1:21am by bsphil



I get a few of those every now and then myself. And I won't be sympathetic either. One time I came across an old friend in whitegate on pup. Wearing mostly full af at 75. I blew a gasket on him. I told him he shouldn't be full timing af gloves. He told me that he needs to keep them on at all times to get the prevents overload effect. What? Where the **** did he get that idea?


I told him to at least go and get some bloody cobra gear until he gets relic and other pieces. But ooo I was ****** lol.
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#37 Mar 02 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
TaimMeich wrote:
I think it's actually EASY to do well on PUP.

Maybe I'm overestimating people's skill ability to hit 3 buttons?
Yes. Vastly. There are way too many people doing it wrong for it to be "easier" than a standard DD job like WAR.


^^

You also have to consider stuff some of us take for granted like simply positioning the automaton, deploying it in the right place, figuring out how to prioritize attachments, etc. Should I double up on Thunder maneuvers to be more efficient here? Mix in a light to trigger flashbulb? What, you need a certain maneuver up at the right time to trigger the best WS? Is my mage puppet out of AoE range? Is my Sharpshot puppet IN melee range?

Your average DD just has to get most of the gear their friends tell them they need, stand next to the mob, WS when needed, and spam a few JAs when they're up. I'm sure the smart ones will be fine, but the guy who gets by on SAM by simply buying a Hagun and remembering to WS might be in for a bit of a shock.

Worst part is still what it always was - you can't check the puppet to see how good or gimp the attachments are. This is not a NEW problem, it's been happening with PUPs for a long time. I think it's not unlikely that we get a bigger wave of PUPs who rely on their now much improved master DD capabilities and let the pet slack. It might be a lot more common post-update to see more PUPs fighting alongside a glorified auto-attacking Wyvern and skipping the hassle and expense of buying and learning about attachments.

Of course, the difference between a good PUP and a bad PUP will be night and day, and a good PUP will blow people away. But even the bad PUPs won't be so bad as to be the near-useless wastes of space they currently are.
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#38 Mar 02 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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You make good points Anza.

Also wanted to say the same about the ones you made over on the MNK forum recently. Good to have an actual good player to counter point the tired "my job is gonna beat your now!" crap some ppl were spewing.
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#39 Mar 02 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Someone once said this about new Ideas:

First it is ignored, Second it is attacked, Third it is accepted as obvious.

I believe that about sums up how the majority of people think.
The trouble is that now the monks are out for blood, which reminds me of another quote; "Whenever a friend suceeds, a little peice of me dies."

People are about as rational as Pi. (Happy Pi day btw, in 12 days)
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#40 Mar 02 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess it's pretty awesome that with the PUPdate more players will recognize PUP, play PUP and eventually understand the things we can do. But one of the reasons I've given up every other job to play PUP full time is because of the exclusiveness of the job. Meaning, there weren't that many PUP players and I liked that fact. I liked the idea of being in a small group of players that not many people really fully understood. It was awesome to surprise people with the automaton's abilities and the master's own.

But now there will probably be a spike in PUP players. But for how long will it last? Like some of you have said in earlier posts, the amount of effort one must throw into PUP may be too much for some. These "band wagoners" may come from a DD background and even when the PUP's H2H skill receives the boost, PUP isn't like any other DD. Unlike a DRG that also has a pet, the Automaton is much more complicated. These new players can't just get by with shiny equipment but they also have to learn the maneuver patterns, gather attachments, cap three Automaton skills, etc. etc.

If we do see a surge in PUPs in the coming month, I don't believe it will last very long. But who ever is willing to take the plunge into what was once "lol" territory, be my guest. I'm all for new PUPs as long as they are good and knowledgeable.

EDIT:
Also about MNKs. My first 75 job was MNK and so with PUP getting an "A" rating in H2H also, I dont think MNKs are really worried. To me, MNK and PUP are different. It's easy to compare them because both of their main weapons are H2H but the comparison stops there. Most MNKs won't really care about PUPs update. And they shouldn't, it's really no big deal. I don't know about these Job rivalry things, it's strange. People are still going to invite and see MNKs as primary DDs. That's not going to change. I don't think PUP threatens MNKs in anyway either. MNK and PUP comparison is easy to be made but they're apples and oranges, they are both too different.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2010 8:37pm by Yll
#41 Mar 02 2010 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yll wrote:
Also about MNKs. My first 75 job was MNK and so with PUP getting an "A" rating in H2H also, I dont think MNKs are really worried. To me, MNK and PUP are different. It's easy to compare them because both of their main weapons are H2H but the comparison stops there. Most MNKs won't really care about PUPs update. And they shouldn't, it's really no big deal. I don't know about these Job rivalry things, it's strange. People are still going to invite and see MNKs as primary DDs. That's not going to change. I don't think PUP threatens MNKs in anyway either. MNK and PUP comparison is easy to be made but they're apples and oranges, they are both too different.
My first 75 was also MNK, a while later I discovered the fun that is PUP and took that to 75 (And then became my main). I haven't been on the game in some.. 14 months? but as a MNK, I can say that I'd be pretty f**king worried with the PUPdate. Sure, a 75 MNK has 60 less delay, access to more haste gear, subtle blow, focus and generally better damage than that of a PUP (Just the master here), but at the end of the day that's not gonna be enough to compete with an A rank PUP and an Automaton. Another thing - MNK lacks spike damage which is all most end gamers seem to care about.

Basically unless they do some changes to MNK (And I'm not talking about that ****** ability they were talking about), MNK is gonna lose ground fast and lets face it - outside of salvage, what niche does MNK have at end game? Hardly any.

As far as the 'Bandwagon' prospect, I'd say you may as well try and make the most of it. As has been stated earlier at least the new bandwagoners will be trying ot play the job as a DD, not some kind of evasion-mage-semiDD halfbreed that we've all seen. Also with an influx of PUPs, I'm sure the prices of attachments are bound to rise somewhat, so you may as well capatilise on that. And we are losing that lolpup stigma by the day, so thats a bonus.

Seriously though, I think everyone would have been just as happy with a B rating. God I really hope I don't start playing again >_<
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#42 Mar 03 2010 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
This is what I have been telling the bandwagon PUPs

"You were not there when the highest spell with out merits was water 3. The puppets combat was a letter skill below what it is now, and the category 2 merits were not giving even more of a boost. There was no desire for PUP, no pts, no AF2, no armor piercer, no cobra. You are not a PUP go level SAM."

That makes me a rude @#%^, but it is a slap in the face to only want us or to be one of us because "hey they are good now".

On a side note, yay for automaton survivability. That one was long over due, but why is it only for harlequin (lol?) and valoredge?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2010 1:50am by BelenosSwiftWater
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#43 Mar 03 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Those mandys in Bibiki Bay need something to do.
Not to mention the ones that are tired of being BST pets in the Boyahda Tree.

Took me a while to remember that yes, there are mandys in Bibiki Bay.
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#44 Mar 03 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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What is going to change is that we're going to have to work a lot harder to manage enmity. It's always been the case that we pull a lot less hate in proportion to the damage because our damage is split across ourselves and the puppet, mainly because of our C rating. Making that an A is going to make us more like MNKs in that regard.

I predict the end of the WAR subjob at 75. We're going to need /NIN an awful lot more just to survive our own damage output.

Either that or wear full Cobra Unit... ;)

Edit: typos

Edited, Mar 3rd 2010 4:37pm by Laverda
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#45 Mar 03 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Default
GDI /nin -_- I really do not want to =/
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#46 Mar 03 2010 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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GDI /nin -_- I really do not want to =/
You could go /WHM and just use the MP to haste and Cureskin yourself at 80+...
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#47 Mar 08 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Decent
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just saw 5 pup's in qufim. 5 PUP'S IN QUFIM!!!! im lucky to see 5 pup's on server in person after playing for 6 hours. 5 pups in 40mins is rediculous. not to mention full time buffoon, eva+ and eva- stuff. i dont want to be a elitist but god ****. reason i wont lvl sam is cause you see sam everywhere. everyone has a sam. i like pup, just a little dissappointed that when someone looks for a pup, they gonna see a huge list and we are gonna have to teach them all. :(
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#48 Mar 08 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
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#49 Mar 08 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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figster wrote:
just saw 5 pup's in qufim. 5 PUP'S IN QUFIM!!!! im lucky to see 5 pup's on server in person after playing for 6 hours. 5 pups in 40mins is rediculous. not to mention full time buffoon, eva+ and eva- stuff. i dont want to be a elitist but god ****. reason i wont lvl sam is cause you see sam everywhere. everyone has a sam. i like pup, just a little dissappointed that when someone looks for a pup, they gonna see a huge list and we are gonna have to teach them all. :(


Yeah it sucks to see that sort of thing, but i personally have just come to expect it whenever there is a massive perception swing in FFXI. I've seen it, in no real order, on DRG, THF, MNK, DRK, RNG, BLM, WAR, BRD, and SAM; ppl with no other intention than leveling the job because its the "it" job of the moment, with no care to actually play the job well. I guess its PUP's turn now.

Only thing long time PUPs can do is keep doing like we have been and playing PUP the best we can. It will always be easy to see the difference between a PUP playing out of a great respect/love of the job and on just riding a trend and half-assing it.

Though, as a member in good standing of my LS, i am definitely going to give rigorous interviews to any PUPs that apply. And if their answers show me that they are just riding the wave, my recommendation to the shell is gonna be to not accept.
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#50 Mar 08 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Should some of us string together some updated post's for our sticky? I think since pup is such a complex job, while a great deal of information is avaible for people, the nitpicky stuff that really makes good pups good seems to be dicussion in threads that may not be recently covered in the FAQ section.
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#51 Mar 08 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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If you wish to write an up-to-date sticky/faq about PUP, I doubt anyone is going to be upset. Some people will more than likely be willing to contribute/critique it for you as well.
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