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#1 Feb 11 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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what would you rate this mythic compared to the rest? I've been considering going for a mythic and i think Kenkon would be the best based on what wiki says (Pld, War, Thf, Pup, Blm my 75s). Being able to spam ice manuever 15 times for blm auto sounds nice and the martial arts would be an extra bonus. And i'm thinking if the aftermath effects with 100% tp would be fine to increase acc/attk till tp is back to 100 again (i think).

Just curious about everyones thoughts.



Edited, Feb 11th 2010 3:08pm by Bobtheinvicible
#2 Feb 11 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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considering what is available for pup compared to what other jobs have compared to their mythics, i would put it up there as one of the best
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#3 Feb 11 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Testing on THF mythic shows it to be equal or worse than an X's Knife. BLM's is something you macro in for Elemental Seal nukes and only Elemental Seal nukes (or lolblmmelee). PLD's is pretty good. I'm not sure about WAR's, but if you were to do something for WAR a relic would probably be a better bet for similar money.

I'd say it comes down to PLD and PUP for you. The logical answer is PLD because PUPlol, but if you have the kind of money to actually go for a mythic and you really love PUP, do PUP, I know I would. Also PLD you'd be better off spending that money on an Aegis or an Excalibur most likely.

Kenkonken has the benefit of having an Aftermath on your best WS in pretty much all situations. Except in "Save to 300% beforehand" situations you should still always WS at 100% though, so you'll only get an Accuracy bonus, not an attack bonus or double attack bonus.

But most importantly its for whatever you play the most, and whatever you have the most fun as. If the answer to that is anything but BLM and PUP though, I'd have to suggest a relic instead.

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 4:35pm by Scritchie
#4 Feb 11 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
Actually, PUP is widely considered the best mythic weapon there is.

Even by the haters in my shell.

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 4:50pm by itege
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#5 Feb 11 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, you're forgetting that the automaton doesn't have to hold back tp while you do, meaning to hit the 300% aftermath, you're only losing about half your weaponskills, which gets made up for somewhat after aftermath 3 kicks in. Not only that, pup is more of a DoT job, and melee hits tend to do more damage total then weaponskills.

I'd say it would require some extensive testing, but it might actually be better to hold tp to 300% and go crazy that way.
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#6 Feb 11 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Usually the list goes somewhere along the line of:

WHM
PLD
PUP


One can make the argument that pup's is better then PLDs but unfortunately the three are like comparing apples, oranges, and Broccoli.

At the end of the day Pup is the best Melee mythic. So just go with that.

And from what I read the double attack so strong that it makes Valoredge go Ape ****
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#7 Feb 11 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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2nd question with the kenkonken how big of an approvment do you think you'd see? Like will it be able to outparse reg gear sams and what not or just tie/below/totally dominate? I know its more of a dot job so short term fights i'm guessing sam would still dominate but what about like Jailer/Gods that take more then 2mins to kill? (I know there's limits but i'd still like to destroy all the people that have lol'd at me in my LS XD)

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 11:40pm by Bobtheinvicible
#8 Feb 11 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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You mean all those times my pup outparsed sams in meripo despite their great gear and merits was a lie?!? O_O

In all seriousness though, the thought of an auto having perpectual 25% haste with 3 wind maneuvers + another 8% with spurrer beret and pantin hands, plus 40% double attack with aftermath 3...

Of course, it would come at the expense of master holding tp to 300%, buuuuut... you wouldn't need condenser to maintain 3 wind, saving you like 2 seconds delay per minute. You'd lose out on some pummels, but pup isn't the fastest TP gaining job anyways, but you'd gain a bunch of extra melee attacks, which would at the very least make up a good portion of the ewaponskill damage lost, if not exceed it. (probably not, but who knows)

And in return, your auto would go absolutely nuts. Only problem is of course, whether you can avoid it dying after all the newfound hate. Lol
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#9 Feb 12 2010 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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I of course have no experience with Kenkonken first hand, but I'm still willing to bet that WSing at 100% > 300%. Keep in mind that Kenkonken, like Glanzfaust only causes you to double attack on the first hit for any H2H attack, so you're really only getting half of the Double Attack compared to other jobs. WSing at 100% will net you and your puppet +10 accuracy assuming known values hold true for the puppet, which should be taken into account too. I'm just not seeing WSing at 1/3rd the rate so you can TP 25% faster (50% bonus but only for 1 hand)and your puppet can WS 50% faster winning, especially when you and the puppet will likely benefit from Accuracy+10, especially since you might be spamming triple wind maneuvers with this, which means no thunder maneuvers to help increase the puppet's accuracy.

Not to say I think Kenkonken is bad though. Its great. Permanent Accuracy+10 is still equal to shenlong's, and it applies to the puppet too. And I haven't seriously mathed this out anyway. And there's always stuff I haven't considered, like holding to 300% actually means you'd probably get decreasing returns on Coiler, making another accuracy attachment worth it. Might also depend on which puppet you use, i.e. Sharpshot might benefit more from Double Attack since WSs are a much bigger part of its overall damage.

Edited, Feb 12th 2010 8:40am by Scritchie



Edited, Feb 12th 2010 8:45am by Scritchie
#10 Feb 12 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Kenkonken is one of the most impressive mythics, but that's a pretty low bar, for what it's worth. WHM is also up there as arguably the best.

I don't see why people like Burtgang. If you're a good enough PLD to be able to consider upgrading a PLD mythic, you'll need it much less than an average PLD75.
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#11 Feb 12 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
Just as a random thought to throw it out there. Does one aftermath effect overwrite another? Or is it once it's up you have to wait for it to wear off?
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#12 Feb 12 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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iirc Lv.2 Aftermath overwrites Lv.1, and Lv.3 overwrites Lv.2, but 1 does not overwrite 3 or 2 overwrite 3.

Lv.3 only lasts 2 minutes though, so you won't have too much opportunity to do 100% TP WSs and still save up 300% TP before its over. Maybe once.
#13 Feb 13 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kenkonken is one of the most impressive mythics, but that's a pretty low bar, for what it's worth. WHM is also up there as arguably the best.


I really don't see how Yagrush could be consider better than Kenkonken. It's a novality enhancement, granted its powerful but it has lost more than a little of its luster ever since Esuna was releaced. It also has enmity control issues, macroing the club in for every -na spell means massive enmity reguardless of if you needed the effect or not (assuming, of course, that your goal is not to draw enmity).

Kenkonken, on the other hand, augments virtually every aspect of PUP; unlike the Yagrush which would more or less be used solely for Divine Veil.

My top pick of Mythic: PUP, WHM, PLD, SMN.
Other possibly decent Mythics: DRG, DNC, BST, DRK.

Edited, Feb 13th 2010 1:15am by Teiei
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#14 Feb 13 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
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#15 Feb 13 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Other possibly decent Mythics: DRG, DNC, BST, DRK


Maybe I just don't get around.. but DRK? Its Absorb enhancement is pretty awful, its definitely worse than even Perdu for normal melee (Same DMG, worse delay, restricts you to Insurgency if you want Acc+ or Attack+, while Perdu gives both normally), and no way in **** even at 300% it beats KClub for zerg. Though maybe I'm wrong, I don't keep up with this stuff so I guess it could have a use I haven't seen.
#16 Feb 13 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Filian wrote:
Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
The only thing esuna has going for it is the ability to take off two debuffs in one cast. Everything else about it is inferior to yagrush.
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#17 Feb 14 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Default
bsphil wrote:
Filian wrote:
Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
The only thing esuna has going for it is the ability to take off two debuffs in one cast. Everything else about it is inferior to yagrush.


Idk, the BST weapon would rank right next to it if the sic and ready augments are good as would 20% added to QD for the COR weapon Death Penalty. I rank those all the same. If you have not QD kited a NM to death then you would never know the worth of that mythic.

Also worth honorable mention are the BLU Tizona, and SAMs Kogarasumarurururururu.

Then behind those I would rank PLD, DRG, PUP, and SMNs equal for last place. The rest can **** off, a few get a less of a **** off like MNK and BRD, but they still can **** off.
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#18 Feb 14 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Filian wrote:
Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
The only thing esuna has going for it is the ability to take off two debuffs in one cast. Everything else about it is inferior to yagrush.


Idk, the BST weapon would rank right next to it if the sic and ready augments are good as would 20% added to QD for the COR weapon Death Penalty. I rank those all the same. If you have not QD kited a NM to death then you would never know the worth of that mythic.

Also worth honorable mention are the BLU Tizona, and SAMs Kogarasumarurururururu.

Then behind those I would rank PLD, DRG, PUP, and SMNs equal for last place. The rest can @#%^ off, a few get a less of a @#%^ off like MNK and BRD, but they still can @#%^ off.


I've actually heard that BST is pretty much **** And I highly doubt the SAM weapon will > Hagun, because yeah, Hagun is almost broken(but not quite)?

PUP should be one of the top because it , for the most part, removes a stupid function that should have never been implemented into the game with other limitations we already have.

The automaton already has a **** activate timer, a timer on maneuvers, and god awful survivability on anything that has an AoE end-game. I mean seriously what need is there for overload?

I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas, BLM's is only good for eleseal(do we even know if it can be macro'd out after eleseal is active? Because if you have to nuke in it, is it even worth it?), PLD has better general purposes than the other two. PUP is affected by overload no matter what frame/head combination we use, enough said.
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#19 Feb 14 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Has anyone even finished an aymur yet?
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#20 Feb 14 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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I've actually heard that BST is pretty much sh*t. And I highly doubt the SAM weapon will > Hagun, because yeah, Hagun is almost broken(but not quite)?


I'm pretty sure BST's hasn't even been finished yet (its the only one iirc) and no SAM mythic doesn't beat Hagun for DMG (unless you save to 300% I guess). That doesn't mean its useless though. Testing showed a 15% increase to Anticipate rates with its enhances Third Eye effect. That makes it an incredibly good weapon for tanking, especially Salvage bosses or really just anything you're low-maning. Its not the best mythic but I'd certainly rate it as one of the non-useless ones.
#21 Feb 14 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
itege wrote:
I've actually heard that BST is pretty much sh*t.


Yeah that is why wiki does not know about it, lack of being unlocked or known about equates ****

itege wrote:
And I highly doubt the SAM weapon will > Hagun, because yeah, Hagun is almost broken(but not quite)?


As was mentioned by the person I just gave sage to (cg btw) its for tanking. Have you ever seen SAM solo videos?

itege wrote:
PUP should be one of the top because it , for the most part, removes a stupid function that should have never been implemented into the game with other limitations we already have.


Overload has only ever hit me when I use too many ice maneuvers on the BLM puppet since I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me. Overload is a reasonable limit imo and it has never been debilitating to me. The fact that you can still overload when using Kenkonken is funny as well.

itege wrote:
I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas


And erase? Do you know how important it can be to remove paralyze or poison from all pt members at once, multiple time, while keeping divine seal, not needing a sch, not needing to use sacrifice and esuna/be hit by the status, and not needing to be in aoe range?

itege wrote:
PLD has better general purposes than the other two.


Burtang is to Kirins Osode (to the general populous) as my response is to that statement.

Overall Itege, you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job. What would Natey say? Perhaps he say this to you:
Nateypoo wrote:
You're making wild assumptions, then proceeding to explain to us what we already know. We already understand your take on the situation, but we see evidence to the contrary...Also, I personally did not see the PLD in my party getting any more benefit than the other members. In short, stop shoving your flawed view of the situation on us, because we know better. At the very least, it needs to be tested further. You're just too quick to open your **** over every thread.


How do I have that you may wonder? Well I was looking up enspell potency for SCH and there was a link to it on wiki and it took me there.
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#22 Feb 14 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me.

BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job.


See, now what I did here was use one of your quotes to reply to another one of your quotes.
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#23 Feb 14 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
Correct me if I am wrong... but Erase would kind of almost fall under the whole -na category, but only a little, because it covers some of the effects that -na spells do not.

Bsphil wrote:
Has anyone even finished an aymur yet?


Apparently someone has because this exact same conversation was going on in my shell the other day and the conclusion was, that out of all of the pet jobs, it is the worst.

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 7:12pm by itege
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#24 Feb 14 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Default
My entire point was macro vs. fulltime, I didn't think it was that hard to understand.
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#25 Feb 15 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
order wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me.

BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job.


See, now what I did here was use one of your quotes to reply to another one of your quotes.


Just because I do not carry them does not mean I do not understand. I have crafted the collar even. There is just not enough room to carry the two. I have done nearly everything I can to maximize storage and until I finish af +1 feet they will not be carried with me. Thank you for being a condescending jackass Order. I wonder who is more of one. See what I did there? I am sure, that is all that mattered out of my post about what Itege thinks of the weapon, that I do not carry the buffons collar and af gloves when I use SR.

The -nas are called the -nas because they end in na, erase is erase.

Itege you only even said the word macro in that post when talking about using ES on the BLM mythic. Not even was it mentioned that you only put on Yagrush for casting (duh?).
Itege wrote:
I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas, BLM's is only good for eleseal(do we even know if it can be macro'd out after eleseal is active? Because if you have to nuke in it, is it even worth it?)
You were talking about what the mythic weapons do for their jobs and what you find their use to be. It was not about which get macroed and which do not, it could of been though if you wrote it a little different and used the word more than asking a question about the BLM mythic. Now, do something smart and follow up with something instead of jumping ship to 'NO I MENT MACROS! **** IT YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME!'.
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#26 Feb 15 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
order wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me.

BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job.


See, now what I did here was use one of your quotes to reply to another one of your quotes.


Just because I do not carry them does not mean I do not understand. I have crafted the collar even. There is just not enough room to carry the two. I have done nearly everything I can to maximize storage and until I finish af +1 feet they will not be carried with me. Thank you for being a condescending jackass Order. I wonder who is more of one. See what I did there? I am sure, that is all that mattered out of my post about what Itege thinks of the weapon, that I do not carry the buffons collar and af gloves when I use SR.

The -nas are called the -nas because they end in na, erase is erase.

Itege you only even said the word macro in that post when talking about using ES on the BLM mythic. Not even was it mentioned that you only put on Yagrush for casting (duh?).
Itege wrote:
I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas, BLM's is only good for eleseal(do we even know if it can be macro'd out after eleseal is active? Because if you have to nuke in it, is it even worth it?)
You were talking about what the mythic weapons do for their jobs and what you find their use to be. It was not about which get macroed and which do not, it could of been though if you wrote it a little different and used the word more than asking a question about the BLM mythic. Now, do something smart and follow up with something instead of jumping ship to 'NO I MENT MACROS! **** IT YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME!'.


Spicyryan telling me to do something smart. LOL

And don't you kind of think, when I am talking about using it for -nas, I am speaking of using it as a macro piece?

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 2:37pm by itege
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#27 Feb 15 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Correct me if I am wrong... but Erase would kind of almost fall under the whole -na category, but only a little, because it covers some of the effects that -na spells do not.


It's not a -na, but it is effected by Yagrush.
Yagrush enhances Divine Veil, making it active all the time; and Erase is effected by Divine Veil as well, therefore Yagrush effects Erase.

Unrelated to whatever other nonsense is going on here, but it looks like we're all geting a infendecimal chance at a relic or mythic.

I know what my first choice will be, and it isn't Yagrush.
(Disclaimer: I'm not going to win, but it's fun to dream)
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#28 Feb 15 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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well thanks for all the replys.
For one i actually didnt know aftermath effected the automaton so that's a boost. I'm not sure about the whole save to 300% tp (I think if you'd have to try like WS's at 300% -> 100% -> 300% to keep the damage up but i'm not all math smart and what not and you'll probly run out of time)

While Pld is nice i most likely won't be able to use it until my modems fixed (Currently i lag every 1min on every internet thing i have -.-) and i really don't want to be the all time tank.

But popping a few ZNMs and if i manage to get one of the trophys i'll most likely go for the kenkonken still gotta work on the other stuff but if i at least get a head start with those i think i can do it.
#29 Feb 15 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread has nothing to do with me but theres one thing I want to make attention to:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
Overload has only ever hit me when I use too many ice maneuvers on the BLM puppet since I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me


To be honest, out of all of the possible two pieces of gear for you to not use when using the BLM puppet, these two are probably the WORST, solely for the fact of how much you would actually lose from overloading on the BLM puppet. Come to think of it, of all the puppets we have, SR probably loses the most when you overload. Why would you not use them? Also, spamming ice maneuvers is one of the only situations where I can think overload could be a big problem (Unless your loading up 3 fir maneuvers for the inhibitor, but spamming ice still tops it). Then there is the fact that the AF gloves do have a -minor- boost to your damage.

So theres no use understanding how a job works when you don't do the most basic thing to make playing that job effectively easier. In fact I would condem someone who has knowlege and doesn't use it more than someone who just doesn't know (At least they can plead ignorance, whats your excuse?).

Sorry for sounding like some pompus jackass by the way.
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#30 Feb 15 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest, out of all of the possible two pieces of gear for you to not use when using the BLM puppet, these two are probably the WORST, solely for the fact of how much you would actually lose from overloading on the BLM puppet. Come to think of it, of all the puppets we have, SR probably loses the most when you overload. Why would you not use them? Also, spamming ice maneuvers is one of the only situations where I can think overload could be a big problem (Unless your loading up 3 fir maneuvers for the inhibitor, but spamming ice still tops it). Then there is the fact that the AF gloves do have a -minor- boost to your damage.

So theres no use understanding how a job works when you don't do the most basic thing to make playing that job effectively easier. In fact I would condem someone who has knowlege and doesn't use it more than someone who just doesn't know (At least they can plead ignorance, whats your excuse?).

I think it's ridiculous that he says that he Overloads on Ice Maneuvers, period. Equip your Condenser and open with Water first. There is absolutely no reason to be Overloading on SR. A nuke that's diminished in power is better than an Overload.

Also, set your INT to 70 or greater. Eat a cream puff if you have to.
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#31 Feb 15 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
Scritchie wrote:
iirc Lv.2 Aftermath overwrites Lv.1, and Lv.3 overwrites Lv.2, but 1 does not overwrite 3 or 2 overwrite 3.

Lv.3 only lasts 2 minutes though, so you won't have too much opportunity to do 100% TP WSs and still save up 300% TP before its over. Maybe once.


Still it's not spamming 300 tp. Even if its 1 300 tp 2 100 tp moves its better then saving for 300 tp constantly. Assuming the above is true.

Anyways the thing with yagrush is it's better by comparison.

When you look at just mythics, and how much they improve the job. Pup's win hands down no question. However, all these weapons are doing is making pup a stronger DD.

So they are going to have to be compared to other Pimped out DDs. That means being compared to relic user. And we all know how that comparison going to end.

So even though yagrush doesn't improve whm immensely, but since it brings something unique to the table, while pups only makes them a better DD, Yagrush is considered better.

As far esuna concerned. There is no way you can say Esuna can be comparable to yagrush. Esuna on a timer on top of several special conditions to get it to work. While yagrush is constant without strings attached.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 9:22pm by Laxedrane
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#32 Feb 15 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:


When you look at just mythics, and how much they improve the job. Pup's win hands down no question. However, all these weapons are doing is making pup a stronger DD.

So they are going to have to be compared to other Pimped out DDs. That means being compared to relic user. And we all know how that comparison going to end.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 9:22pm by Laxedrane


No, we don't know how that turns out because we've never had someone with Kenkonken parse against a relic holder. Saying that we know how it would turn out is just plain stupid.
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#33 Feb 15 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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order wrote:
I think it's ridiculous that he says that he Overloads on Ice Maneuvers, period. Equip your Condenser and open with Water first.


Even with Condenser:

a) Sometimes you still overload on Water, especially after a Deactivate/Activate (it's not unreasonable to be a little aggressive at times to get maneuvers back up).

b) Sometimes the one water you have up drops at juuuust the wrong time and you overload on the Ice that you're putting up. (or a variation on this theme, Overdrive drops just as you're putting up your... 10th straight ice? LOL).

But yeah, generally this should not be a big issue.

Quote:
Also, set your INT to 70 or greater. Eat a cream puff if you have to.


It's good to get INT greater than/equal to your puppet, but idk if I'd go as far as saying eat INT food unless you're completely on the back line and not meleeing. If you're meleeing, not using DD food is probably a bigger hit to your total DoT than having to be a little more careful with Ice Maneuvers.

But yeah, no reason not to use Buffoon's/AF hands. None at all. And if you're struggling to get INT up, Errant body/legs are nice and cheap. Or toss on some INT rings, etc.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 11:21pm by Anza
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#34 Feb 15 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Kametame wrote:
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:


When you look at just mythics, and how much they improve the job. Pup's win hands down no question. However, all these weapons are doing is making pup a stronger DD.

So they are going to have to be compared to other Pimped out DDs. That means being compared to relic user. And we all know how that comparison going to end.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 9:22pm by Laxedrane


No, we don't know how that turns out because we've never had someone with Kenkonken parse against a relic holder. Saying that we know how it would turn out is just plain stupid.


Was almost positive comparison were made when the first person got it, who happen to be jp, compared it. Found that Valoredge out parse Sharpshot. And then was compared to other relics. *shrug* At the end of the day it be a tough for pup to beat out something like Apocalypse.

When assuming all conditions are the same, not counting natural double attack either job can stack on top of their damage. Pup will get a flat ~50% increase in output while darks would get an 80% increase in output assuming they have the supporting gear. This is of course ignoring the fact the master has to hold tp. On the flip side it's not counting master haste and double attack from gear and sub job or attachments and pet gear for the auto. Depending on frame also the ignore defense aspect of the ws. However it also ignores the any of darks double attacks Natural JAs and subs job abilities and attributes, the rare double damage, etc etc.


It's sketchy to say the least but even if my memory totally fails on comparison when the first weapon was acquired. Dark knights have *a lot* going for them that ~50% double attack for both pet and master and a no tp drop boost in martial arts is going to fill that gap. Not saying I can't be wrong but even if the above is true I don't think saying Ken not gonna beat Apo a fair statement. But if it does **** I be more then ecstatic.
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#35 Feb 15 2010 at 10:44 PM Rating: Default
itege wrote:
And don't you kind of think, when I am talking about using it for -nas, I am speaking of using it as a macro piece?


The only time you specifically mention using something only for macros was blm staff. Anyone with half a brain knows which ones are macroed and which are not by looking at the stats. You were all about the use/value of the mythic for that job, not which gets used in a macro and which don't. You would not bother to make a post about which are used in macro and which are not as no one needs to be told it.

Hard to grasp the concept?

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 11:45pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#36 Feb 15 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Default
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
itege wrote:
And don't you kind of think, when I am talking about using it for -nas, I am speaking of using it as a macro piece?


The only time you specifically mention using something only for macros was blm staff. Anyone with half a brain knows which ones are macroed and which are not by looking at the stats. You were all about the use/value of the mythic for that job, not which gets used in a macro and which don't. You would not bother to make a post about which are used in macro and which are not as no one needs to be told it.

Hard to grasp the concept?

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 11:45pm by BelenosSwiftWater


OH SNAP, no one make any statements that might be the slightest bit obvious, Spicyryan will be all up in your grill.
Find some more Natey quotes, I dare you.
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#37 Feb 16 2010 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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It's good to get INT greater than/equal to your puppet, but idk if I'd go as far as saying eat INT food unless you're completely on the back line and not meleeing. If you're meleeing, not using DD food is probably a bigger hit to your total DoT than having to be a little more careful with Ice Maneuvers.

But yeah, no reason not to use Buffoon's/AF hands. None at all. And if you're struggling to get INT up, Errant body/legs are nice and cheap. Or toss on some INT rings, etc.


I should have been more specific regarding what I was talking about. That's my fault. Lately, I've been doing a lot of manaburns, and thusly, I've been on the back line. Aside from Mamool merit camp, where else are you using SR while meleeing? Limbus, maybe? My LS is just now letting me come to events as PUP, so I haven't run into many situations where I've gotten to use SR while I'm punching.
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#38 Feb 16 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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order wrote:
Quote:
It's good to get INT greater than/equal to your puppet, but idk if I'd go as far as saying eat INT food unless you're completely on the back line and not meleeing. If you're meleeing, not using DD food is probably a bigger hit to your total DoT than having to be a little more careful with Ice Maneuvers.

But yeah, no reason not to use Buffoon's/AF hands. None at all. And if you're struggling to get INT up, Errant body/legs are nice and cheap. Or toss on some INT rings, etc.


I should have been more specific regarding what I was talking about. That's my fault. Lately, I've been doing a lot of manaburns, and thusly, I've been on the back line. Aside from Mamool merit camp, where else are you using SR while meleeing? Limbus, maybe? My LS is just now letting me come to events as PUP, so I haven't run into many situations where I've gotten to use SR while I'm punching.
I can EASILY get my INT over 100 on PUP without changing weapons or eating INT food. Really no excuse to not be able to get over 76~.
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#39 Feb 16 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
When assuming all conditions are the same, not counting natural double attack either job can stack on top of their damage. Pup will get a flat ~50% increase in output while darks would get an 80% increase in output assuming they have the supporting gear. This is of course ignoring the fact the master has to hold tp. On the flip side it's not counting master haste and double attack from gear and sub job or attachments and pet gear for the auto. Depending on frame also the ignore defense aspect of the ws. However it also ignores the any of darks double attacks Natural JAs and subs job abilities and attributes, the rare double damage, etc etc.


I just have to wonder, how can you draw a conclusion based off this extensive list of variables?

And also, I have to ask, why do you care?
They're very different weapons for very different jobs.
Sounds more like comparing job to job, cause comparing relic to relic doesn't work since they all give specific bonuses suited to specific jobs.
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#40 Feb 16 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Default
itege wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
itege wrote:
And don't you kind of think, when I am talking about using it for -nas, I am speaking of using it as a macro piece?


The only time you specifically mention using something only for macros was blm staff. Anyone with half a brain knows which ones are macroed and which are not by looking at the stats. You were all about the use/value of the mythic for that job, not which gets used in a macro and which don't. You would not bother to make a post about which are used in macro and which are not as no one needs to be told it.

Hard to grasp the concept?

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 11:45pm by BelenosSwiftWater


OH SNAP, no one make any statements that might be the slightest bit obvious, Spicyryan will be all up in your grill.
Find some more Natey quotes, I dare you.


Glad I have not been posting much until the past few days. Way to take it personal as well.

It is okay Itege, keep responding by being a dope. Stances are for the birds.

Guess I should say hey as well.

Hey everyone!

EDIT: and here is a quote for you on a completely unrelated topic that can be spun to pertain to you. You wanted a quote didn't you? Sorry the sarcasm was just not obvious enough.

Nateypoo on an unrelated post that can be used to describe Itege at the moment wrote:
I don't know what you're trying to prove, but you're being snotty and an airhead. That tends to upset people. Either you're a **** communicator or you're really clueless -- I really don't care which, but it's annoying. Figure out wtf your problem is, and we'll be considerably less hostile. Also, don't say something is "clear" when it's either unclear or incorrect. Likewise, do not say we can "say for sure ... [bad info]". Arrogant blanket statements only work if you're precise and correct the majority of the time. It's very hard to tell if you're just sloppy with your terminology or whatever; but I'm highly suspicious that you really have no clue, and you have no business butting your head into a topic you're not educated on.


Edited, Feb 16th 2010 3:32pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#41 Feb 16 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I can EASILY get my INT over 100 on PUP without changing weapons or eating INT food. Really no excuse to not be able to get over 76~.

Congrats on that, I guess. But you're a taru and you're using a Windower to achieve that. For those of us who aren't doing either of those, it requires more cumbersome macros.
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#42 Feb 16 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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order wrote:
Aside from Mamool merit camp, where else are you using SR while meleeing? Limbus, maybe?


Limbus is indeed one of the situations I've regularly run into with SR + melee (probably the main one, actually - it's how I tend to come to Limbus in every zone other than Proto-Ultima). Einherjar, Nyzul, and various NMs/missions/assaults are also reasonable possibilities and I've gone melee+mage puppet in all of those cases. Melee + full Stormwaker is also a pretty good campaign or solo setup, and the logic is the same.

If you're 100% sure you're gonna be backline only, then yeah mage food is fine. Something like a manaburn, or PUP/SCH soloing. But if there's any chance you might melee, I'd personally be wary of eating mage food. Besides calculated meleeing while using the mage puppet, what happens if you have a freak accident automaton death? Are you gonna switch to melee and be stuck with what amounts to no benefit from food? And do you really find that you can't get acceptable INT through gear alone?

FWIW, I usually macro in Errant body, AF+1 hands, and Buffoon's+1 in my water/ice macros. I could go further with stuff like Errant legs and an INT ring or two. And really, even on a stock 6 line macro there's no excuse to not macro in at least two items, manevuer, /wait 1, macro those two items back out for TP gear. It's no harder than hitting a maneuver macro that has one line to do the actual maneuver.

I also have a "nuke" macro that I hit while meleeing when my puppet begins casting a spell. It contains:
- Mirke w/ Pet MAB/M.Acc+7
- Pantin legs
- Pantin feet
- Pet MAB+2 earring (from ACP final fight, augmented item)
- Pet MAB+1 back (from Moogle final fight, augmented item)

I then switch back to TP gear with my TP macro.

order wrote:
Quote:
I can EASILY get my INT over 100 on PUP without changing weapons or eating INT food. Really no excuse to not be able to get over 76~.

Congrats on that, I guess. But you're a taru and you're using a Windower to achieve that. For those of us who aren't doing either of those, it requires more cumbersome macros.


Also, if you're just sitting on the backlines windower is irrelevant. Since you're not meleeing, what else are you getting from gear? MP for backup cures? You can idle in INT gear and you should be able to cheaply get plenty of INT gear to do the job. Errant, maybe some cheap rings/cape, and you should be good to go.

Edited, Feb 16th 2010 6:17pm by Anza
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#43BelenosSwiftWater, Posted: Feb 16 2010 at 7:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So he is taru? Being a hume that means 7 more int than me. Big deal, and it is more showing how easy it is to get to and not that you have to be a taru or it is something for taru only.
#44 Feb 16 2010 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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So he is taru? Being a hume that means 7 more int than me. Big deal, and it is more showing how easy it is to get to and not that you have to be a taru or it is something for taru only.

As for the macros you can equip all the mage gear you need in two macros with out the use of widower. Are you pulling "cumbersome macros" (aka QQ) as a legitimate reason or just some rational to support your own choices?


First off, I hit my 70+ INT for any event in which I need it. Don't infer things from these posts that aren't there.

Secondly, don't try to wrap this around on me and accuse me of crying this way or that. You're still the one that said he overloads on Ice Maneuvers, and I'm still the one that pointed out why that is stupid. Don't become upset and thrash out at people who disagree with you just because you never learned any other path of recourse. And also because you are wrong.
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#45BelenosSwiftWater, Posted: Feb 16 2010 at 10:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sure it is not crying, but someone should get you a fresh lollipop or something. Maybe a tampon, who the **** knows?
#46 Feb 17 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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You know I can understand not carrying Buffoon's Collar if you're not overloading. But Puppetry Dastanas? They also double the stat bonus of maneuvers. I'd take +6 INT > +3 INT any day.
#47 Feb 17 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Don't argue with him, Scritchie. He knows what he's doing.
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#48BelenosSwiftWater, Posted: Feb 17 2010 at 9:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Heee Hawww
#49 Feb 18 2010 at 3:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
That is okay Order, having no room while doing everything to maximize storage means I am just a noob because I should really have that room to carry items. Items that without makes me nothing, thank you, thank you.

Well, it suggests pretty strongly that you don't understand the relative value of gear, because if you are carrying 80 macro-able gear items around at one time and still don't have room for those two items, then somewhere you are carrying inferior items at the expense of more useful ones.

Or, you don't have a Mog Satchel, or perhaps you just refuse to use mules? I could understand this, since not everyone is keen to pay extra money for storage, even if it's relatively cheap. But, then, that's not really "doing everything to maximize storage."
#50BelenosSwiftWater, Posted: Feb 18 2010 at 10:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jobs
#51 Feb 18 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
PUP
Then it has its /sch light arts ( http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=56191 )


You're really telling me you think a light arts set is more useful than two hugely useful maneuver macro pieces? I get keeping some Dark Arts gear, cause you really need sleeps to stick. But light? For all that awesome party healing you're always doing on PUP/SCH? Hmmm. Priorities.

Quote:
It comes down to I do not need them. I am not using the hands on any other frame because the blinking is @#%^ing ridiculous


/facepalm. Complaining about blinking = fail. 2x the corresponding elemental stat boost to the puppet is more than worth blinking on a maneuver, even if you don't care at all about the hands' effect on overload. And this excuse is useless on Buffoon's Collar, since you don't blink when macroing it in.

Besides, what does blinking hurt? Do you really have mages that are so lousy that they haven't learned to deal with blinking in 2010? And even if you do, how often are they targeting the PUP in events (hint: not very).

Quote:
Exhaustive list of a bunch of gear


If you're really committed to playing all of your jobs well and loading them up with gear, and you have done everything you can to get space (all gobbiebag and mog house/locker expansions, mog satchel, etc.)...

You can always get a 2nd mule. It's a dollar. Not that insane.

Or, don't level a bunch of jobs with completely different gear sets. That's your own problem, and if doing so causes you to be in a bad situation for storage space, you have to deal with the consequences. If one of the consequences is that you can't use items that are accepted as standard pieces for one of your jobs, you are indeed subpar on that job. Sorry. Don't complain to us about woe is me storage issues when you're just making excuses for being gimp on PUP.


Quote:
COR has all its unique gear of QD set, slug shot ws set, leaden salute ws set, detonator ws set, and TP gear. (keeping 4 different cards and 3 different ammo types alone translates to 13 spots taken).


Also, an example from a job I know well where you're not being that efficient:

3 different ammo types? To paraphrase the COR forums: Steel or GTFO ;) 13 spots? Try 8. Stack of Steel pouches, current stack of steel bullets, current stacks of 4 element cards light/dark/2 damage cards, stack of light card cases in reserve, and a stack of a damaging elemental card in reserve. You can refill your cards cheaply and quickly from NPCs. There's 5 spots, that frees up your needed space for Buffoon's Collar and Puppetry Dastanas right there, and then some.

Even if you say you want NQ bullets for pulling or something, that's a max of 2 more slots (stack of pouches, current stack of ammo). Still 10 spots, not 13 = enough room to keep your PUP stuff that you say you just CAN'T make room for.

Also, some things that perhaps exaggerate a bit:
a) Leaden Salute set = QD set. And if you think keeping a "set" for a very situational WS for COR is a higher priority than keeping two incredibly helpful items for PUP that you'll use in every manevuer, idk what to say.

b) Detonator "set" = it's honestly a couple items different than your Slug set, don't make it sound like you're running around with 10+ items JUST for Detonator, which you're not gonna use that often anyway. And again, prioritize. Keeping macro gear for a pretty uncommon COR WS? Or keeping macro gear for something that's useful on PUP every. single. maneuver. Your call, I guess... seems like an easy decision though.

c) TP gear = conveniently shares a lot of pieces with PUP! Less excuses now.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 12:54pm by Anza
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