Kenkonken Follow

what would you rate this mythic compared to the rest? I've been considering going for a mythic and i think Kenkon would be the best based on what wiki says (Pld, War, Thf, Pup, Blm my 75s). Being able to spam ice manuever 15 times for blm auto sounds nice and the martial arts would be an extra bonus. And i'm thinking if the aftermath effects with 100% tp would be fine to increase acc/attk till tp is back to 100 again (i think).

Just curious about everyones thoughts.



Edited, Feb 11th 2010 3:08pm by Bobtheinvicible

Testing on THF mythic shows it to be equal or worse than an X's Knife. BLM's is something you macro in for Elemental Seal nukes and only Elemental Seal nukes (or lolblmmelee). PLD's is pretty good. I'm not sure about WAR's, but if you were to do something for WAR a relic would probably be a better bet for similar money.

I'd say it comes down to PLD and PUP for you. The logical answer is PLD because PUPlol, but if you have the kind of money to actually go for a mythic and you really love PUP, do PUP, I know I would. Also PLD you'd be better off spending that money on an Aegis or an Excalibur most likely.

Kenkonken has the benefit of having an Aftermath on your best WS in pretty much all situations. Except in "Save to 300% beforehand" situations you should still always WS at 100% though, so you'll only get an Accuracy bonus, not an attack bonus or double attack bonus.

But most importantly its for whatever you play the most, and whatever you have the most fun as. If the answer to that is anything but BLM and PUP though, I'd have to suggest a relic instead.

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 4:35pm by Scritchie

I dunno, you're forgetting that the automaton doesn't have to hold back tp while you do, meaning to hit the 300% aftermath, you're only losing about half your weaponskills, which gets made up for somewhat after aftermath 3 kicks in. Not only that, pup is more of a DoT job, and melee hits tend to do more damage total then weaponskills.

I'd say it would require some extensive testing, but it might actually be better to hold tp to 300% and go crazy that way.

2nd question with the kenkonken how big of an approvment do you think you'd see? Like will it be able to outparse reg gear sams and what not or just tie/below/totally dominate? I know its more of a dot job so short term fights i'm guessing sam would still dominate but what about like Jailer/Gods that take more then 2mins to kill? (I know there's limits but i'd still like to destroy all the people that have lol'd at me in my LS XD)

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 11:40pm by Bobtheinvicible

I of course have no experience with Kenkonken first hand, but I'm still willing to bet that WSing at 100% > 300%. Keep in mind that Kenkonken, like Glanzfaust only causes you to double attack on the first hit for any H2H attack, so you're really only getting half of the Double Attack compared to other jobs. WSing at 100% will net you and your puppet +10 accuracy assuming known values hold true for the puppet, which should be taken into account too. I'm just not seeing WSing at 1/3rd the rate so you can TP 25% faster (50% bonus but only for 1 hand)and your puppet can WS 50% faster winning, especially when you and the puppet will likely benefit from Accuracy+10, especially since you might be spamming triple wind maneuvers with this, which means no thunder maneuvers to help increase the puppet's accuracy.

Not to say I think Kenkonken is bad though. Its great. Permanent Accuracy+10 is still equal to shenlong's, and it applies to the puppet too. And I haven't seriously mathed this out anyway. And there's always stuff I haven't considered, like holding to 300% actually means you'd probably get decreasing returns on Coiler, making another accuracy attachment worth it. Might also depend on which puppet you use, i.e. Sharpshot might benefit more from Double Attack since WSs are a much bigger part of its overall damage.

Edited, Feb 12th 2010 8:40am by Scritchie



Edited, Feb 12th 2010 8:45am by Scritchie

Just as a random thought to throw it out there. Does one aftermath effect overwrite another? Or is it once it's up you have to wait for it to wear off?

I really don't see how Yagrush could be consider better than Kenkonken. It's a novality enhancement, granted its powerful but it has lost more than a little of its luster ever since Esuna was releaced. It also has enmity control issues, macroing the club in for every -na spell means massive enmity reguardless of if you needed the effect or not (assuming, of course, that your goal is not to draw enmity).

Kenkonken, on the other hand, augments virtually every aspect of PUP; unlike the Yagrush which would more or less be used solely for Divine Veil.

My top pick of Mythic: PUP, WHM, PLD, SMN.
Other possibly decent Mythics: DRG, DNC, BST, DRK.

Edited, Feb 13th 2010 1:15am by Teiei

Maybe I just don't get around.. but DRK? Its Absorb enhancement is pretty awful, its definitely worse than even Perdu for normal melee (Same DMG, worse delay, restricts you to Insurgency if you want Acc+ or Attack+, while Perdu gives both normally), and no way in hell even at 300% it beats KClub for zerg. Though maybe I'm wrong, I don't keep up with this stuff so I guess it could have a use I haven't seen.

Idk, the BST weapon would rank right next to it if the sic and ready augments are good as would 20% added to QD for the COR weapon Death Penalty. I rank those all the same. If you have not QD kited a NM to death then you would never know the worth of that mythic.

Also worth honorable mention are the BLU Tizona, and SAMs Kogarasumarurururururu.

Then behind those I would rank PLD, DRG, PUP, and SMNs equal for last place. The rest can @#%^ off, a few get a less of a @#%^ off like MNK and BRD, but they still can @#%^ off.

Has anyone even finished an aymur yet?

Yeah that is why wiki does not know about it, lack of being unlocked or known about equates sh*t!



As was mentioned by the person I just gave sage to (cg btw) its for tanking. Have you ever seen SAM solo videos?



Overload has only ever hit me when I use too many ice maneuvers on the BLM puppet since I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me. Overload is a reasonable limit imo and it has never been debilitating to me. The fact that you can still overload when using Kenkonken is funny as well.



And erase? Do you know how important it can be to remove paralyze or poison from all pt members at once, multiple time, while keeping divine seal, not needing a sch, not needing to use sacrifice and esuna/be hit by the status, and not needing to be in aoe range?



Burtang is to Kirins Osode (to the general populous) as my response is to that statement.

Overall Itege, you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job. What would Natey say? Perhaps he say this to you:


How do I have that you may wonder? Well I was looking up enspell potency for SCH and there was a link to it on wiki and it took me there.

Correct me if I am wrong... but Erase would kind of almost fall under the whole -na category, but only a little, because it covers some of the effects that -na spells do not.



Apparently someone has because this exact same conversation was going on in my shell the other day and the conclusion was, that out of all of the pet jobs, it is the worst.

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 7:12pm by itege

Just because I do not carry them does not mean I do not understand. I have crafted the collar even. There is just not enough room to carry the two. I have done nearly everything I can to maximize storage and until I finish af +1 feet they will not be carried with me. Thank you for being a condescending jackass Order. I wonder who is more of one. See what I did there? I am sure, that is all that mattered out of my post about what Itege thinks of the weapon, that I do not carry the buffons collar and af gloves when I use SR.

The -nas are called the -nas because they end in na, erase is erase.

Itege you only even said the word macro in that post when talking about using ES on the BLM mythic. Not even was it mentioned that you only put on Yagrush for casting (duh?).You were talking about what the mythic weapons do for their jobs and what you find their use to be. It was not about which get macroed and which do not, it could of been though if you wrote it a little different and used the word more than asking a question about the BLM mythic. Now, do something smart and follow up with something instead of jumping ship to 'NO I MENT MACROS! DAMN IT YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME!'.

It's not a -na, but it is effected by Yagrush.
Yagrush enhances Divine Veil, making it active all the time; and Erase is effected by Divine Veil as well, therefore Yagrush effects Erase.

Unrelated to whatever other nonsense is going on here, but it looks like we're all geting a infendecimal chance at a relic or mythic.

I know what my first choice will be, and it isn't Yagrush.
(Disclaimer: I'm not going to win, but it's fun to dream)

This thread has nothing to do with me but theres one thing I want to make attention to:

To be honest, out of all of the possible two pieces of gear for you to not use when using the BLM puppet, these two are probably the WORST, solely for the fact of how much you would actually lose from overloading on the BLM puppet. Come to think of it, of all the puppets we have, SR probably loses the most when you overload. Why would you not use them? Also, spamming ice maneuvers is one of the only situations where I can think overload could be a big problem (Unless your loading up 3 fir maneuvers for the inhibitor, but spamming ice still tops it). Then there is the fact that the AF gloves do have a -minor- boost to your damage.

So theres no use understanding how a job works when you don't do the most basic thing to make playing that job effectively easier. In fact I would condem someone who has knowlege and doesn't use it more than someone who just doesn't know (At least they can plead ignorance, whats your excuse?).

Sorry for sounding like some pompus jackass by the way.

Still it's not spamming 300 tp. Even if its 1 300 tp 2 100 tp moves its better then saving for 300 tp constantly. Assuming the above is true.

Anyways the thing with yagrush is it's better by comparison.

When you look at just mythics, and how much they improve the job. Pup's win hands down no question. However, all these weapons are doing is making pup a stronger DD.

So they are going to have to be compared to other Pimped out DDs. That means being compared to relic user. And we all know how that comparison going to end.

So even though yagrush doesn't improve whm immensely, but since it brings something unique to the table, while pups only makes them a better DD, Yagrush is considered better.

As far esuna concerned. There is no way you can say Esuna can be comparable to yagrush. Esuna on a timer on top of several special conditions to get it to work. While yagrush is constant without strings attached.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 9:22pm by Laxedrane

Even with Condenser:

a) Sometimes you still overload on Water, especially after a Deactivate/Activate (it's not unreasonable to be a little aggressive at times to get maneuvers back up).

b) Sometimes the one water you have up drops at juuuust the wrong time and you overload on the Ice that you're putting up. (or a variation on this theme, Overdrive drops just as you're putting up your... 10th straight ice? LOL).

But yeah, generally this should not be a big issue.



It's good to get INT greater than/equal to your puppet, but idk if I'd go as far as saying eat INT food unless you're completely on the back line and not meleeing. If you're meleeing, not using DD food is probably a bigger hit to your total DoT than having to be a little more careful with Ice Maneuvers.

But yeah, no reason not to use Buffoon's/AF hands. None at all. And if you're struggling to get INT up, Errant body/legs are nice and cheap. Or toss on some INT rings, etc.

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 11:21pm by Anza

The only time you specifically mention using something only for macros was blm staff. Anyone with half a brain knows which ones are macroed and which are not by looking at the stats. You were all about the use/value of the mythic for that job, not which gets used in a macro and which don't. You would not bother to make a post about which are used in macro and which are not as no one needs to be told it.

Hard to grasp the concept?

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 11:45pm by BelenosSwiftWater

I should have been more specific regarding what I was talking about. That's my fault. Lately, I've been doing a lot of manaburns, and thusly, I've been on the back line. Aside from Mamool merit camp, where else are you using SR while meleeing? Limbus, maybe? My LS is just now letting me come to events as PUP, so I haven't run into many situations where I've gotten to use SR while I'm punching.

I just have to wonder, how can you draw a conclusion based off this extensive list of variables?

And also, I have to ask, why do you care?
They're very different weapons for very different jobs.
Sounds more like comparing job to job, cause comparing relic to relic doesn't work since they all give specific bonuses suited to specific jobs.

Congrats on that, I guess. But you're a taru and you're using a Windower to achieve that. For those of us who aren't doing either of those, it requires more cumbersome macros.

Don't argue with him, Scritchie. He knows what he's doing.

Well, it suggests pretty strongly that you don't understand the relative value of gear, because if you are carrying 80 macro-able gear items around at one time and still don't have room for those two items, then somewhere you are carrying inferior items at the expense of more useful ones.

Or, you don't have a Mog Satchel, or perhaps you just refuse to use mules? I could understand this, since not everyone is keen to pay extra money for storage, even if it's relatively cheap. But, then, that's not really "doing everything to maximize storage."

You're really telling me you think a light arts set is more useful than two hugely useful maneuver macro pieces? I get keeping some Dark Arts gear, cause you really need sleeps to stick. But light? For all that awesome party healing you're always doing on PUP/SCH? Hmmm. Priorities.



/facepalm. Complaining about blinking = fail. 2x the corresponding elemental stat boost to the puppet is more than worth blinking on a maneuver, even if you don't care at all about the hands' effect on overload. And this excuse is useless on Buffoon's Collar, since you don't blink when macroing it in.

Besides, what does blinking hurt? Do you really have mages that are so lousy that they haven't learned to deal with blinking in 2010? And even if you do, how often are they targeting the PUP in events (hint: not very).



If you're really committed to playing all of your jobs well and loading them up with gear, and you have done everything you can to get space (all gobbiebag and mog house/locker expansions, mog satchel, etc.)...

You can always get a 2nd mule. It's a dollar. Not that insane.

Or, don't level a bunch of jobs with completely different gear sets. That's your own problem, and if doing so causes you to be in a bad situation for storage space, you have to deal with the consequences. If one of the consequences is that you can't use items that are accepted as standard pieces for one of your jobs, you are indeed subpar on that job. Sorry. Don't complain to us about woe is me storage issues when you're just making excuses for being gimp on PUP.




Also, an example from a job I know well where you're not being that efficient:

3 different ammo types? To paraphrase the COR forums: Steel or GTFO ;) 13 spots? Try 8. Stack of Steel pouches, current stack of steel bullets, current stacks of 4 element cards light/dark/2 damage cards, stack of light card cases in reserve, and a stack of a damaging elemental card in reserve. You can refill your cards cheaply and quickly from NPCs. There's 5 spots, that frees up your needed space for Buffoon's Collar and Puppetry Dastanas right there, and then some.

Even if you say you want NQ bullets for pulling or something, that's a max of 2 more slots (stack of pouches, current stack of ammo). Still 10 spots, not 13 = enough room to keep your PUP stuff that you say you just CAN'T make room for.

Also, some things that perhaps exaggerate a bit:
a) Leaden Salute set = QD set. And if you think keeping a "set" for a very situational WS for COR is a higher priority than keeping two incredibly helpful items for PUP that you'll use in every manevuer, idk what to say.

b) Detonator "set" = it's honestly a couple items different than your Slug set, don't make it sound like you're running around with 10+ items JUST for Detonator, which you're not gonna use that often anyway. And again, prioritize. Keeping macro gear for a pretty uncommon COR WS? Or keeping macro gear for something that's useful on PUP every. single. maneuver. Your call, I guess... seems like an easy decision though.

c) TP gear = conveniently shares a lot of pieces with PUP! Less excuses now.

Edited, Feb 18th 2010 12:54pm by Anza