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Kenkonken Follow

#1 Feb 11 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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what would you rate this mythic compared to the rest? I've been considering going for a mythic and i think Kenkon would be the best based on what wiki says (Pld, War, Thf, Pup, Blm my 75s). Being able to spam ice manuever 15 times for blm auto sounds nice and the martial arts would be an extra bonus. And i'm thinking if the aftermath effects with 100% tp would be fine to increase acc/attk till tp is back to 100 again (i think).

Just curious about everyones thoughts.



Edited, Feb 11th 2010 3:08pm by Bobtheinvicible
#2 Feb 11 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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considering what is available for pup compared to what other jobs have compared to their mythics, i would put it up there as one of the best
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#3 Feb 11 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Testing on THF mythic shows it to be equal or worse than an X's Knife. BLM's is something you macro in for Elemental Seal nukes and only Elemental Seal nukes (or lolblmmelee). PLD's is pretty good. I'm not sure about WAR's, but if you were to do something for WAR a relic would probably be a better bet for similar money.

I'd say it comes down to PLD and PUP for you. The logical answer is PLD because PUPlol, but if you have the kind of money to actually go for a mythic and you really love PUP, do PUP, I know I would. Also PLD you'd be better off spending that money on an Aegis or an Excalibur most likely.

Kenkonken has the benefit of having an Aftermath on your best WS in pretty much all situations. Except in "Save to 300% beforehand" situations you should still always WS at 100% though, so you'll only get an Accuracy bonus, not an attack bonus or double attack bonus.

But most importantly its for whatever you play the most, and whatever you have the most fun as. If the answer to that is anything but BLM and PUP though, I'd have to suggest a relic instead.

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 4:35pm by Scritchie
#4 Feb 11 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
Actually, PUP is widely considered the best mythic weapon there is.

Even by the haters in my shell.

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 4:50pm by itege
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#5 Feb 11 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, you're forgetting that the automaton doesn't have to hold back tp while you do, meaning to hit the 300% aftermath, you're only losing about half your weaponskills, which gets made up for somewhat after aftermath 3 kicks in. Not only that, pup is more of a DoT job, and melee hits tend to do more damage total then weaponskills.

I'd say it would require some extensive testing, but it might actually be better to hold tp to 300% and go crazy that way.
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#6 Feb 11 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Usually the list goes somewhere along the line of:

WHM
PLD
PUP


One can make the argument that pup's is better then PLDs but unfortunately the three are like comparing apples, oranges, and Broccoli.

At the end of the day Pup is the best Melee mythic. So just go with that.

And from what I read the double attack so strong that it makes Valoredge go Ape ****.
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#7 Feb 11 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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2nd question with the kenkonken how big of an approvment do you think you'd see? Like will it be able to outparse reg gear sams and what not or just tie/below/totally dominate? I know its more of a dot job so short term fights i'm guessing sam would still dominate but what about like Jailer/Gods that take more then 2mins to kill? (I know there's limits but i'd still like to destroy all the people that have lol'd at me in my LS XD)

Edited, Feb 11th 2010 11:40pm by Bobtheinvicible
#8 Feb 11 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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You mean all those times my pup outparsed sams in meripo despite their great gear and merits was a lie?!? O_O

In all seriousness though, the thought of an auto having perpectual 25% haste with 3 wind maneuvers + another 8% with spurrer beret and pantin hands, plus 40% double attack with aftermath 3...

Of course, it would come at the expense of master holding tp to 300%, buuuuut... you wouldn't need condenser to maintain 3 wind, saving you like 2 seconds delay per minute. You'd lose out on some pummels, but pup isn't the fastest TP gaining job anyways, but you'd gain a bunch of extra melee attacks, which would at the very least make up a good portion of the ewaponskill damage lost, if not exceed it. (probably not, but who knows)

And in return, your auto would go absolutely nuts. Only problem is of course, whether you can avoid it dying after all the newfound hate. Lol
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#9 Feb 12 2010 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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I of course have no experience with Kenkonken first hand, but I'm still willing to bet that WSing at 100% > 300%. Keep in mind that Kenkonken, like Glanzfaust only causes you to double attack on the first hit for any H2H attack, so you're really only getting half of the Double Attack compared to other jobs. WSing at 100% will net you and your puppet +10 accuracy assuming known values hold true for the puppet, which should be taken into account too. I'm just not seeing WSing at 1/3rd the rate so you can TP 25% faster (50% bonus but only for 1 hand)and your puppet can WS 50% faster winning, especially when you and the puppet will likely benefit from Accuracy+10, especially since you might be spamming triple wind maneuvers with this, which means no thunder maneuvers to help increase the puppet's accuracy.

Not to say I think Kenkonken is bad though. Its great. Permanent Accuracy+10 is still equal to shenlong's, and it applies to the puppet too. And I haven't seriously mathed this out anyway. And there's always stuff I haven't considered, like holding to 300% actually means you'd probably get decreasing returns on Coiler, making another accuracy attachment worth it. Might also depend on which puppet you use, i.e. Sharpshot might benefit more from Double Attack since WSs are a much bigger part of its overall damage.

Edited, Feb 12th 2010 8:40am by Scritchie



Edited, Feb 12th 2010 8:45am by Scritchie
#10 Feb 12 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Kenkonken is one of the most impressive mythics, but that's a pretty low bar, for what it's worth. WHM is also up there as arguably the best.

I don't see why people like Burtgang. If you're a good enough PLD to be able to consider upgrading a PLD mythic, you'll need it much less than an average PLD75.
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#11 Feb 12 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
Just as a random thought to throw it out there. Does one aftermath effect overwrite another? Or is it once it's up you have to wait for it to wear off?
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#12 Feb 12 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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iirc Lv.2 Aftermath overwrites Lv.1, and Lv.3 overwrites Lv.2, but 1 does not overwrite 3 or 2 overwrite 3.

Lv.3 only lasts 2 minutes though, so you won't have too much opportunity to do 100% TP WSs and still save up 300% TP before its over. Maybe once.
#13 Feb 13 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kenkonken is one of the most impressive mythics, but that's a pretty low bar, for what it's worth. WHM is also up there as arguably the best.


I really don't see how Yagrush could be consider better than Kenkonken. It's a novality enhancement, granted its powerful but it has lost more than a little of its luster ever since Esuna was releaced. It also has enmity control issues, macroing the club in for every -na spell means massive enmity reguardless of if you needed the effect or not (assuming, of course, that your goal is not to draw enmity).

Kenkonken, on the other hand, augments virtually every aspect of PUP; unlike the Yagrush which would more or less be used solely for Divine Veil.

My top pick of Mythic: PUP, WHM, PLD, SMN.
Other possibly decent Mythics: DRG, DNC, BST, DRK.

Edited, Feb 13th 2010 1:15am by Teiei
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#14 Feb 13 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
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#15 Feb 13 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Other possibly decent Mythics: DRG, DNC, BST, DRK


Maybe I just don't get around.. but DRK? Its Absorb enhancement is pretty awful, its definitely worse than even Perdu for normal melee (Same DMG, worse delay, restricts you to Insurgency if you want Acc+ or Attack+, while Perdu gives both normally), and no way in **** even at 300% it beats KClub for zerg. Though maybe I'm wrong, I don't keep up with this stuff so I guess it could have a use I haven't seen.
#16 Feb 13 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Filian wrote:
Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
The only thing esuna has going for it is the ability to take off two debuffs in one cast. Everything else about it is inferior to yagrush.
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#17 Feb 14 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Default
bsphil wrote:
Filian wrote:
Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
The only thing esuna has going for it is the ability to take off two debuffs in one cast. Everything else about it is inferior to yagrush.


Idk, the BST weapon would rank right next to it if the sic and ready augments are good as would 20% added to QD for the COR weapon Death Penalty. I rank those all the same. If you have not QD kited a NM to death then you would never know the worth of that mythic.

Also worth honorable mention are the BLU Tizona, and SAMs Kogarasumarurururururu.

Then behind those I would rank PLD, DRG, PUP, and SMNs equal for last place. The rest can **** off, a few get a less of a **** off like MNK and BRD, but they still can **** off.
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#18 Feb 14 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Filian wrote:
Yagrush is a better mythic in my opinion because it allows something unique and makes many battles much more manageable on large and small scales, far more than having one more pimped DD would. Esuna should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Yagrush; It's not even in the same league and is even virtually unusable on any fight that truly matters. The enmity is a minor issue at best.

That's not to say that Kenkonken isn't the best DD mythic because it probably is but I would personally give Yagrush top marks for the unique things it brings to the table and the doors it opens. Plus I'm a WHM and I'm biased.
The only thing esuna has going for it is the ability to take off two debuffs in one cast. Everything else about it is inferior to yagrush.


Idk, the BST weapon would rank right next to it if the sic and ready augments are good as would 20% added to QD for the COR weapon Death Penalty. I rank those all the same. If you have not QD kited a NM to death then you would never know the worth of that mythic.

Also worth honorable mention are the BLU Tizona, and SAMs Kogarasumarurururururu.

Then behind those I would rank PLD, DRG, PUP, and SMNs equal for last place. The rest can @#%^ off, a few get a less of a @#%^ off like MNK and BRD, but they still can @#%^ off.


I've actually heard that BST is pretty much ****. And I highly doubt the SAM weapon will > Hagun, because yeah, Hagun is almost broken(but not quite)?

PUP should be one of the top because it , for the most part, removes a stupid function that should have never been implemented into the game with other limitations we already have.

The automaton already has a ****** activate timer, a timer on maneuvers, and god awful survivability on anything that has an AoE end-game. I mean seriously what need is there for overload?

I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas, BLM's is only good for eleseal(do we even know if it can be macro'd out after eleseal is active? Because if you have to nuke in it, is it even worth it?), PLD has better general purposes than the other two. PUP is affected by overload no matter what frame/head combination we use, enough said.
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#19 Feb 14 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Has anyone even finished an aymur yet?
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#20 Feb 14 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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I've actually heard that BST is pretty much sh*t. And I highly doubt the SAM weapon will > Hagun, because yeah, Hagun is almost broken(but not quite)?


I'm pretty sure BST's hasn't even been finished yet (its the only one iirc) and no SAM mythic doesn't beat Hagun for DMG (unless you save to 300% I guess). That doesn't mean its useless though. Testing showed a 15% increase to Anticipate rates with its enhances Third Eye effect. That makes it an incredibly good weapon for tanking, especially Salvage bosses or really just anything you're low-maning. Its not the best mythic but I'd certainly rate it as one of the non-useless ones.
#21 Feb 14 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
itege wrote:
I've actually heard that BST is pretty much sh*t.


Yeah that is why wiki does not know about it, lack of being unlocked or known about equates ****!

itege wrote:
And I highly doubt the SAM weapon will > Hagun, because yeah, Hagun is almost broken(but not quite)?


As was mentioned by the person I just gave sage to (cg btw) its for tanking. Have you ever seen SAM solo videos?

itege wrote:
PUP should be one of the top because it , for the most part, removes a stupid function that should have never been implemented into the game with other limitations we already have.


Overload has only ever hit me when I use too many ice maneuvers on the BLM puppet since I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me. Overload is a reasonable limit imo and it has never been debilitating to me. The fact that you can still overload when using Kenkonken is funny as well.

itege wrote:
I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas


And erase? Do you know how important it can be to remove paralyze or poison from all pt members at once, multiple time, while keeping divine seal, not needing a sch, not needing to use sacrifice and esuna/be hit by the status, and not needing to be in aoe range?

itege wrote:
PLD has better general purposes than the other two.


Burtang is to Kirins Osode (to the general populous) as my response is to that statement.

Overall Itege, you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job. What would Natey say? Perhaps he say this to you:
Nateypoo wrote:
You're making wild assumptions, then proceeding to explain to us what we already know. We already understand your take on the situation, but we see evidence to the contrary...Also, I personally did not see the PLD in my party getting any more benefit than the other members. In short, stop shoving your flawed view of the situation on us, because we know better. At the very least, it needs to be tested further. You're just too quick to open your *****-hole over every thread.


How do I have that you may wonder? Well I was looking up enspell potency for SCH and there was a link to it on wiki and it took me there.
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#22 Feb 14 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me.

BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job.


See, now what I did here was use one of your quotes to reply to another one of your quotes.
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#23 Feb 14 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
Correct me if I am wrong... but Erase would kind of almost fall under the whole -na category, but only a little, because it covers some of the effects that -na spells do not.

Bsphil wrote:
Has anyone even finished an aymur yet?


Apparently someone has because this exact same conversation was going on in my shell the other day and the conclusion was, that out of all of the pet jobs, it is the worst.

Edited, Feb 14th 2010 7:12pm by itege
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#24 Feb 14 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Default
My entire point was macro vs. fulltime, I didn't think it was that hard to understand.
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#25 Feb 15 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
order wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me.

BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job.


See, now what I did here was use one of your quotes to reply to another one of your quotes.


Just because I do not carry them does not mean I do not understand. I have crafted the collar even. There is just not enough room to carry the two. I have done nearly everything I can to maximize storage and until I finish af +1 feet they will not be carried with me. Thank you for being a condescending jackass Order. I wonder who is more of one. See what I did there? I am sure, that is all that mattered out of my post about what Itege thinks of the weapon, that I do not carry the buffons collar and af gloves when I use SR.

The -nas are called the -nas because they end in na, erase is erase.

Itege you only even said the word macro in that post when talking about using ES on the BLM mythic. Not even was it mentioned that you only put on Yagrush for casting (duh?).
Itege wrote:
I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas, BLM's is only good for eleseal(do we even know if it can be macro'd out after eleseal is active? Because if you have to nuke in it, is it even worth it?)
You were talking about what the mythic weapons do for their jobs and what you find their use to be. It was not about which get macroed and which do not, it could of been though if you wrote it a little different and used the word more than asking a question about the BLM mythic. Now, do something smart and follow up with something instead of jumping ship to 'NO I MENT MACROS! **** IT YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME!'.
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#26 Feb 15 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
order wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I do not carry buffons or af gloves with me.

BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
you have shown a poor understanding of what actually benefits a job.


See, now what I did here was use one of your quotes to reply to another one of your quotes.


Just because I do not carry them does not mean I do not understand. I have crafted the collar even. There is just not enough room to carry the two. I have done nearly everything I can to maximize storage and until I finish af +1 feet they will not be carried with me. Thank you for being a condescending jackass Order. I wonder who is more of one. See what I did there? I am sure, that is all that mattered out of my post about what Itege thinks of the weapon, that I do not carry the buffons collar and af gloves when I use SR.

The -nas are called the -nas because they end in na, erase is erase.

Itege you only even said the word macro in that post when talking about using ES on the BLM mythic. Not even was it mentioned that you only put on Yagrush for casting (duh?).
Itege wrote:
I mean all mythics somewhat improve their respective jobs. PUP's actually does something to help the job as a whole not just buff a single aspect of how the job is played. I mean Yagrush only has use for -nas, BLM's is only good for eleseal(do we even know if it can be macro'd out after eleseal is active? Because if you have to nuke in it, is it even worth it?)
You were talking about what the mythic weapons do for their jobs and what you find their use to be. It was not about which get macroed and which do not, it could of been though if you wrote it a little different and used the word more than asking a question about the BLM mythic. Now, do something smart and follow up with something instead of jumping ship to 'NO I MENT MACROS! **** IT YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME!'.


Spicyryan telling me to do something smart. LOL

And don't you kind of think, when I am talking about using it for -nas, I am speaking of using it as a macro piece?

Edited, Feb 15th 2010 2:37pm by itege
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