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#1 Oct 23 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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ok, it's been bugging me for a little while that there hasn't been any set value for SP's mods. 30-40% for both is nice and all, but I'd like to see something more exact. Thus, I busted out the old numbers I got from bsphil (here) way back in the day, and I slapped them together with StudioGobli's fTP (.75), and I'm pretty happy with the results.

----- Math Parts Starting -----

Damage = ( pDIF ( WD ) ) = ( pDIF ( fTP ( BD + fSTR + WSC ) ) )

Where:
Damage = 197
pDif = 3.15
fTP:
D = 47
fSTR = 10
WSC:

Now, I’ll use the .75 that StudioGobli found. They've been nothing but reliable for years, so I’ll trust they’re either right, or very close, and I’ll leave 197 undivided for the time being, due to how ugly the number is.

197 / 3.15 = .75 ( 47 + 10 + WSC )
(197 / 3.15) / .75 = 57 + WSC
( (197 / 3.15) / .75 ) - 57 = WSC
WSC = 26
26 = ( floor( floor( (54(%mod 1) + 60(%mod 2)) * .83) ) )

From here out, it’s a matter of guess and check, since I don’t know of any way to figure it out otherwise. I’ll replace both mods knowing that .3 ≤ %mod1 ≤ .4, .3 ≤ %mod2 ≤ .4
( floor( floor( (54(.3)+ 60(.3) ) * .83) ) ) = 28
( floor( floor( (54(.4)+ 60(.4) ) * .83) ) ) = 37

This tells me that with the fTP = .75, the minimum threshold is not .3. I think that I may have worked the equation incorrectly. I’ll go back and, just for the sake of trying, use a ceiling function.

ceiling( ceiling(197 / 3.15) / .75 ) - 57 = WSC = 27

With this, if I assume a %mod1 = .3 and %mod2 = .3, the equation comes out at 28. My numbers come out at 27 currently, and the end result is an increase of 3 for damage dealt, which is well within any margin of error by my count.

Now to check, I’ll adjust the STR by the numbers mentioned earlier. Now: S = 75. The value of O I already know to be 217 with this number for S. Nothing else is changed.

217 = 3.15 ( .75 ( 47 + (floor( 21 / 9 ) + 8) + WSC ) ) )
217 / 3.15 = .75 ( 47 + 10 + WSC )
(217 / 3.15) / .75 = 57 + WSC
ceiling( ceiling(217 / 3.15) / .75 ) - 57 = WSC
WSC = 35
( floor( floor( (75*.30 + 60*.30) * .83) ) ) = 33

To low. Margin of error upward is fine for a little, but reverse means that my highest achieved number shouldn’t be possible. Now I’ll try reworking it a bit
.
( floor( floor( (54*.35 + 60*.30) * .83) ) ) = 29 : Damage = 203
( floor( floor( (54*.32 + 60*.32) * .83) ) ) = 29 : Damage = 203
( floor( floor( (75*.35 + 60*.30) * .83) ) ) = 35 : Damage = 217
( floor( floor( (75*.32 + 60*.32) * .83) ) ) = 35 : Damage = 217

203 is still within the margin of error for the first sample, since in that sample, there was no clear cut cap like the +21 str sample (where there are very clearly a large number of 217 results) There aren't any ws that have a 35%/30% split. Actually, none of the 35% mods have a secondary modifier. However, there are 3 ws that have a 32%/32% mod split (Judgment, Calamity, and Weapon Break)

So my conclusion:
Stringing Pummel:
fTP: .75
Str 32% Vit 32%

Of course, I'll do some more extensive testing when I get some time, but for the moment, let me know what ya think.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 1:12pm by Jinte
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#2 Oct 23 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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32% sounds a little odd for Square, we could probly just assume it's 30%? Very nice work, rate upz.
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#3 Oct 23 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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Afk wrote:
32% sounds a little odd for Square, we could probly just assume it's 30%? Very nice work, rate upz.
Unusual, but possible. I know there are a few other WSs out there that have awkward WSC mods. Aside from the ones Jinte mentioned, every archery WS aside from Namas Arrow is STR 16% AGI 25%.


As for the numbers themselves, they look very solid. Nice work Jinte.

I suppose you could find a specific STR/VIT build that would flush out whether the WSC mods were 35/30 or 32/32, but I'd lean towards 32/32 as well. Either way, another step closer to nailing down the WSC values. Good stuff. (b'-')b

EDIT: I also have a ws gorget that works on Stringing Pummel now which should help solidify the fTP value if I ever have the time to go test it again.



Edited, Oct 24th 2009 12:32am by bsphil
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#4 Oct 23 2009 at 11:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Afk wrote:
32% sounds a little odd for Square, we could probly just assume it's 30%? Very nice work, rate upz.
I thought it was 30%, but 30% makes the 217 SPs with 75 str impossible.
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Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#5 Oct 24 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
Afk wrote:
32% sounds a little odd for Square, we could probly just assume it's 30%? Very nice work, rate upz.


It's Square, nothing is odd for them.

Nice job btw, Jinte.

Hopefully I will have a PUP weapon and floor 100 access within 2 weeks.
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#6 May 08 2012 at 12:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hello PUPs!

I am not a PUP, though I do occasionally think about leveling the job until I look at your AF, but I did some more testing on Stringing Pummel. Assuming everything in this thread is correct (I did not re-verify it), I think that Stringing Pummel has a substantial 100TP Crit rate boost AND a substantial attack bonus. The exact amounts could still use more work, but it's something on the order of +30% and +50% respectively.

Testing thus far:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Talk:Stringing_Pummel

My life is about to get very very busy and I do not have the time to nail down precise values, but you can if you want! Here is now:
1) Go to Abyssea - Ule on PUP/whatever and put on Mounted Champion, Razed Ruins, and Scorpion Queen with Cruor buffs. Put on Flame/Shadow/Soil Gorget and Belt. Do not wear Rancorous Mantle. Ideally you will have around 500 Attack. You may also want to not wear much DA/TA gear (see point 4). Record your STR and VIT. Do not change gear after this point.
2) Level up the Bluffalo until some start spawning EM/T.
3) Take an EM/T Bluffalo to very low HP and WS it, ideally with close to 100 TP and with only the first hit landing. Check your TP return to make sure the WS was only one hit. Record the damage and whether the Bluffalo was EM or T. Check if the first hit crit or not.
4) If you are having trouble avoiding killing the Bluffalo while taking it low, consider removing DA/TA gear.
5) As far as data analysis, you can do the math yourself, post it back here, or PM it to me through some route.

The idea is that we're looking to see if there are non-crits with 5% base + 5% Merits + 15% dDEX + 30% Razed Ruins + 10% Scorpion Queen (65% total so far) + Stringing Pummel's innate boost (would be a 100% crit rate if it's +35% for Pummel at 100TP, which I'm not sure it is anymore). Beyond that, we're looking to see what damage range we get with far-uncapped attack so that we can determine the attack boost. If you want to sub SAM and use Sekkanoki to make sure you're exactly at 100 TP once every 5 minutes, that would work.

PS. You can't let your Auto cast Dia II.

Here is an example of how this process works (though admittedly it's a lot easier to do it with a 2H, 3.0 fTP WS):
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104123-Weapon-Skills?p=5054381&viewfull=1#post5054381
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#7 May 08 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks Byrth! Will definitely try this out as soon as I can. I'm not too sure, however, that the bonuses are so high, because my own experience with SP vs SS has the latter consistently winning.
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#8 May 26 2012 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Hello PUPs!

I am not a PUP, though I do occasionally think about leveling the job until I look at your AF, but I did some more testing on Stringing Pummel. Assuming everything in this thread is correct (I did not re-verify it), I think that Stringing Pummel has a substantial 100TP Crit rate boost AND a substantial attack bonus. The exact amounts could still use more work, but it's something on the order of +30% and +50% respectively.

Testing thus far:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Talk:Stringing_Pummel

My life is about to get very very busy and I do not have the time to nail down precise values, but you can if you want! Here is now:
1) Go to Abyssea - Ule on PUP/whatever and put on Mounted Champion, Razed Ruins, and Scorpion Queen with Cruor buffs. Put on Flame/Shadow/Soil Gorget and Belt. Do not wear Rancorous Mantle. Ideally you will have around 500 Attack. You may also want to not wear much DA/TA gear (see point 4). Record your STR and VIT. Do not change gear after this point.
2) Level up the Bluffalo until some start spawning EM/T.
3) Take an EM/T Bluffalo to very low HP and WS it, ideally with close to 100 TP and with only the first hit landing. Check your TP return to make sure the WS was only one hit. Record the damage and whether the Bluffalo was EM or T. Check if the first hit crit or not.
4) If you are having trouble avoiding killing the Bluffalo while taking it low, consider removing DA/TA gear.
5) As far as data analysis, you can do the math yourself, post it back here, or PM it to me through some route.

The idea is that we're looking to see if there are non-crits with 5% base + 5% Merits + 15% dDEX + 30% Razed Ruins + 10% Scorpion Queen (65% total so far) + Stringing Pummel's innate boost (would be a 100% crit rate if it's +35% for Pummel at 100TP, which I'm not sure it is anymore). Beyond that, we're looking to see what damage range we get with far-uncapped attack so that we can determine the attack boost. If you want to sub SAM and use Sekkanoki to make sure you're exactly at 100 TP once every 5 minutes, that would work.

PS. You can't let your Auto cast Dia II.

Here is an example of how this process works (though admittedly it's a lot easier to do it with a 2H, 3.0 fTP WS):
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104123-Weapon-Skills?p=5054381&viewfull=1#post5054381


Just gonna point out for anyone not familiar with this guy, he's a @#%^in' boss whom I have mad love for. I can't test this sh*t myself, since 1) I don't have scorpion queen, and 2) I cba to reactivate my account right now, because I'm going on vacation in less than a week and may well be spending 2 weeks either without internet, or with a sh*tty connection.

That said, those numbers don't really sound that unlikely, based on my own experience (SP has always had a noticeably higher 100% crit rate compared to other crit ws, for me (in my case, compared to ascetic's fury, raging rush, rampage, and vorpal blade)), as well as, if you remember, stringing pummel was made and released for pup when it had C+ h2h skill, and was notoriously lacking in attack. The devs aren't the most intelligent game designers around, but they have always been good at accounting for sh*tty stuff and giving it something to at least semi-negate being sh*t some of the time, and I think Stringing Pummel was originally meant to be that sort of thing (especially when you consider that the ws it's most similar to is Hexa Strike). Even with merits/gear/berserk/food, atk at the C+ cap was always miserable, so a 50% atk boost isn't really that outrageous when you consider the circumstances (especially given it's fTP/stat mods that SE knows pup can't make much @#%^ing use of (for byrth/non pups, pup's two least available stat boosts are vit and str respectively, and SP's mods are (if you didn't read this thread) 32% STR/32% VIT). Also, when you consider the attack boost, that does help explain why SP and VS are so dead @#%^ing even for pup, because the numbers always favor VS a tiny bit, outside of DA/TA procs, but in practice, SP seems to pull ahead a tiny bit.

For those of you who can test this, though, don't think you have to be able to do the math yourselves. Just make sure you meet the criteria byrth listed and get a decent sample size for those of us who can run the numbers to work with.

TaimMeich wrote:
Thanks Byrth! Will definitely try this out as soon as I can. I'm not too sure, however, that the bonuses are so high, because my own experience with SP vs SS has the latter consistently winning.


Assuming you mean Shijin Spiral (seriously, we need to start working on differentiating a bit, we have like 5 different things abbreviated as SS), I'm not really sure how, unless there's a significant difference in the quality of WS sets you use, or you're fighting nothing but higher defense sh*t, unless you're just really unlucky with procing crits on SP Smiley: dubious. Given roughly equivalent gear, SP and SS should average roughly the same for pup (so will non-vereth VS, for the record), with SP having more variation and higher spikes/lower lows, and SS being more consistent. The higher the target's defense, though, the more the situation favors SS.

edit: List of crit atmas for people to make use of (Found one that can take the place of scorpion queen for those who don't have it, and is a bit easier to get)
Atma of the Thrashing Tendrils 	[Crit Rate +10%, CHR+30] 
Atma of the Scorpion Queen 	[Crit Rate +10%, Store TP+20, Resist Bind] 
Atma of the Gnarled Horn	[Crit Rate +20%, Counter+10%, AGI+50] 
Atma of the Dark Depths		[Crit Rate +20%, Evasion+20, AGI+20] 
Atma of the Razed Ruins		[Crit Rate +30%, Crit Damage+30%, DEX+50]


So basically, you can replace Scorpion Queen with Thrashing Tendrils, if you don't have it, but if you have neither, it'd be better to do Gnarled Horn+Dark Depths to still get 40% from atma. The basic idea is: "Will this give SP a 100% crit rate at 100% TP?" According to Byrth, it should, but obviously, it needs to be tested and he's not a pup. The basic idea is to find out how much crit rate is needed to cap out SP's crit rate at 100%.

Edited, May 26th 2012 1:39pm by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#9 May 29 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Assuming you mean Shijin Spiral (seriously, we need to start working on differentiating a bit, we have like 5 different things abbreviated as SS), I'm not really sure how, unless there's a significant difference in the quality of WS sets you use, or you're fighting nothing but higher defense sh*t, unless you're just really unlucky with procing crits on SP Smiley: dubious. Given roughly equivalent gear, SP and SS should average roughly the same for pup (so will non-vereth VS, for the record), with SP having more variation and higher spikes/lower lows, and SS being more consistent. The higher the target's defense, though, the more the situation favors SS.


SS is Shijin, yeah. SoulSoother, SharpShot, ShijinSpiral... Even if only one of them is a ws, it's definitely annoying.

Regardind Spiral vs Pummel, I was the first one surprised! I elaborated a bit more on a post on BG, quoting myself from there:

Quote:
In any case, I've experienced the same as Ophannus as a PUP. In VW, SP performs lower than SS. And it's worth to note that in VW, as a PUP, I started doing first all SP, then SP at 300% TP and SS at 100%, and lately I've only done SS. And SS outperformed (or at least matched) SP at 300 TP, with the theoretical crit rate boost SP should have. This is all against T3 Jeuno and Zilart mobs, and a bunch of Gaunabs, no extra-tough stuff.

Against EP Dynamis stuff I have done extensive parses, and SS still outperforms SP by something like 200 damage on average.

Playing a bit with Motenten's spreadhseet, it looks like SP should win by a little against SS (on Dyna EP, Chiefkaboob, /NIN) with the bestest gear for both WS I can imagine (and Vereth 99 as a weapon), with the current 10%/10%/15% crit spread, and gets quite ahead with a 30%/10%/10% spread. With my current gear, and the first crit spread, SS wins against SP, by about 100 damage, which is more or less consistent with my own experience, and SP wins with the second crit spread with a noticeable margin (SP now 100 damage ahead).

When I recover my PC from death I'll do proper buffalo tests, but meanwhile, there's the theorycraft.


My gear, while lacking any NeoNyzul piece (I used several of those in my "ideal" set comparisons) is quite close to the best without NeoNyzul stuff, and I think I optimized each WS the best I could. If you're interested, I can post my WS sets. Maybe you guys can find what's wrong with my SP set (if there's something very wrong I'm missing).

I'm still PC-less, but should recover it tomorrow and be active in-game this week (will have to reinstall the game... ;_;). I'll post my buffalo results as soon as I have them.
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#10 Feb 04 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Stringing Pummel . . . is my enemy. I was having trouble figuring out why it doesn't destroy Victory Smite, but I may have found my answer. PUP gets **** for gear selection and there are very few pieces that allow them to take advantage of the VIT and STR mods at the same time. Still, I get that Stringing Pummel should have a minor advantage over Victory Smite (3~5%) in most situations with similarly awesome gear. Not worth using over VS if you don't have Aftermath up or aren't using Verth, but worth using otherwise.

Testing:
- Re-confirmed the fTP and mods using brews (and gorget/belt) on the test server. The ones proposed in this thread are correct. The data is on bgwiki's talk page if you care to see it. It's fairly unambiguous.

- Tried to narrow down the crit rate again. I think I got a non-crit with an 80% base rate, which indicates <20% crit rate. That would probably be 15%, but could be less.

- Re-analyzed my crit damage data vs. Bluffalo. If there's an Attack penalty, then it's less than 11%.


My final non-crit WS against Angler Tigers (Abyssea - La Theine) did 153 damage with Gorget/Belt on. This is what makes testing this WS so hard. 153 damage is approximately 2% of the monster's HP, which means I basically have to turn around and have my mule nuke the monsters from ~15% to 1% before I can WS. At the same time, I have to time it so I have 100~105% TP when he has 1% HP. It's a big pain in the keister and I'm tired of it. I probably will be done testing this for another year or more.
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#12 Feb 05 2013 at 3:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Zelduh wrote:
"PUP gets sh*t for gear selection"
lolno


In comparison to its H2H counterpart Monk, or really any other DD right now, their gear selection isn't that great. They're limited to what they've got available to them, and for things like Stringing Pummel (which he was remarking about in particular), Pup doesn't have access to many gear options that are give decent amounts of both Str and Vit for the mod. It's not like Victory Smite where you're just focusing on the one stat. For Stringing Pummel you're going to want both Str and Vit both, and there aren't many pieces available to Pup that let them do that. Trust me, Byrth isn't one to say that they've got terrible gear selection all in all unless he meant it.


Edited, Feb 5th 2013 4:37am by Vlorsutes
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#13 Feb 05 2013 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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Other jobs have access to much more STR/VIT gear than PUP and modifiers are important for lower base damage weapons (like H2H).

Optimal Stringing Pummel vs. Dynamis DCs via. the spreadsheet (Haste, Boost-STR, Galka, /WAR, no JAs):

Deluxe Animator
Thaumas / Gorget / Brutal / Moonshade AttTP
Matanca / Athos / Spiral / Epona
Rancorous (Max) / Ele.Belt / Athos / Thaumas

^ This set includes three pieces that have both STR and VIT on them. If PUP could wear the Huginn set, for instance, 3~4 of the pieces would instantly be the best Stringing Pummel pieces. If they could wear Twilight Helm or Drachenhorn, they would beat Huginn Coronal. Their terrible access to STR/VIT gear is why Stringing Pummel's 32% STR / 32% VIT ends up being enough worse than Victory Smite's 60% STR to almost completely compensate for its (likely) higher 100TP Crit bonus and higher fTP. If they could wear the gear I just outlined, Stringing Pummel's advantage over Victory Smite would be more like 10% rather than the ~3% it pulls now (for Galkas. It is almost dead even for Taru).
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#15 Feb 07 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Stringing Pummel . . . is my enemy. I was having trouble figuring out why it doesn't destroy Victory Smite, but I may have found my answer. PUP gets sh*t for gear selection and there are very few pieces that allow them to take advantage of the VIT and STR mods at the same time. Still, I get that Stringing Pummel should have a minor advantage over Victory Smite (3~5%) in most situations with similarly awesome gear. Not worth using over VS if you don't have Aftermath up or aren't using Verth, but worth using otherwise.

Testing:
- Re-confirmed the fTP and mods using brews (and gorget/belt) on the test server. The ones proposed in this thread are correct. The data is on bgwiki's talk page if you care to see it. It's fairly unambiguous.

- Tried to narrow down the crit rate again. I think I got a non-crit with an 80% base rate, which indicates <20% crit rate. That would probably be 15%, but could be less.

- Re-analyzed my crit damage data vs. Bluffalo. If there's an Attack penalty, then it's less than 11%.


My final non-crit WS against Angler Tigers (Abyssea - La Theine) did 153 damage with Gorget/Belt on. This is what makes testing this WS so hard. 153 damage is approximately 2% of the monster's HP, which means I basically have to turn around and have my mule nuke the monsters from ~15% to 1% before I can WS. At the same time, I have to time it so I have 100~105% TP when he has 1% HP. It's a big pain in the keister and I'm tired of it. I probably will be done testing this for another year or more.


Abyssea may not be the place to test imho

Anywhere else (95%) in game my Sp's and SS's easily beat VS from a strictly WS view.

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#16 Feb 07 2013 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
Dalans wrote:
Byrthnoth wrote:
Stringing Pummel . . . is my enemy. I was having trouble figuring out why it doesn't destroy Victory Smite, but I may have found my answer. PUP gets sh*t for gear selection and there are very few pieces that allow them to take advantage of the VIT and STR mods at the same time. Still, I get that Stringing Pummel should have a minor advantage over Victory Smite (3~5%) in most situations with similarly awesome gear. Not worth using over VS if you don't have Aftermath up or aren't using Verth, but worth using otherwise.

Testing:
- Re-confirmed the fTP and mods using brews (and gorget/belt) on the test server. The ones proposed in this thread are correct. The data is on bgwiki's talk page if you care to see it. It's fairly unambiguous.

- Tried to narrow down the crit rate again. I think I got a non-crit with an 80% base rate, which indicates <20% crit rate. That would probably be 15%, but could be less.

- Re-analyzed my crit damage data vs. Bluffalo. If there's an Attack penalty, then it's less than 11%.


My final non-crit WS against Angler Tigers (Abyssea - La Theine) did 153 damage with Gorget/Belt on. This is what makes testing this WS so hard. 153 damage is approximately 2% of the monster's HP, which means I basically have to turn around and have my mule nuke the monsters from ~15% to 1% before I can WS. At the same time, I have to time it so I have 100~105% TP when he has 1% HP. It's a big pain in the keister and I'm tired of it. I probably will be done testing this for another year or more.


Abyssea may not be the place to test imho

Anywhere else (95%) in game my Sp's and SS's easily beat VS from a strictly WS view.


It's actually the best place to test what he's testing, since he can tailor his critical hit rate and other attributes through Atmas, which allows for a fine tuning on testing the critical hit rate, fTP, etc of the weaponskill.


Edited, Feb 7th 2013 6:02pm by Vlorsutes
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