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Cor AtmacitesFollow

#1 Jul 09 2012 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Getting close to finishing 85 Armageddon and hopefully getting into some VW soon, was wondering which atmacites I should be looking to upgrade for COR. Been hoarding my crour to upgrade for necessary atmacites, have ~4 mil atm w/o having done much VW.
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#2 Jul 09 2012 at 8:30 PM Rating: Default
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In all honesty, its a waste of cruor to upgrade them.
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#3 Jul 10 2012 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Coercion is easily the priority, really for any DD. 3tp/tic regain, and a little STR/AGI never hurts as a bonus. Temp item spam or not, you won't ALWAYS have a Dusty Wing up and that extra regain can easily be the difference in quickly hitting a needed proc and the run going badly.

Beyond that:
* Slayer - excellent for Wildfire, probably the #2 choice for a WF-focused COR
* Discipline - still OK for any DD even though Save TP was nerfed
* Destruction - best non-Provenance MAB atma, good for QD/Wildfire; cheap upgrade too, 750k Cruor to take it to lv15 is tied for cheapest lv15 Atmacite
* Valiant - expensive upgrade, but +15 to all attributes is pretty strong stuff
* Assailment - MAB+20 is the best MAB atma, with a beefy STR+20. Downsides of Slow/Addle really don't hurt COR. From a Provenance fight though, so obviously harder to get access to and quite expensive to upgrade.
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#4 Jul 14 2012 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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I get Alobont's dismissal of them since most only add modest gains compared to gear and temps. Of course I haven't done any high level Provenance runs since , in general I hate VW and only really do it for cruor and HMP's.

But I tend to use coercion and slayer. I have discipline and if I can guarantee all the DD's in my party are using it, I'll put it on as well and then use Miser's roll. But discipline without Miser's is a waste.
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#5 Jul 14 2012 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
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The content is old. its not worth wasting what is really a lot of gil to make your self slightly better in an event that will be dead in 5 months time.
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#6 Jul 16 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
The content is old. its not worth wasting what is really a lot of gil to make your self slightly better in an event that will be dead in 5 months time.


OK, have fun being cheap (and moderately gimp). Your call. It's not like gil/cruor is that hard to come by anyway, complaining about gil in today's FFXI always makes me roll my eyes a bit. Especially from a COR. And if you do VW with any regularity you'll be rolling in cruor just by doing the fights. Could you turn it into gil? Well, yeah. But cheaping out and not bothering to upgrade anything is no different than a mage not having all their spells, or someone not upgrading gear just because it costs money. You can do it, but you're not playing your best.

For people who actually take pride in performing well in some of the harder VW fights (Provenance, T6 Jeuno, T2 Aht Urghan/Tavnazia), it's worth it. Seeing as how there are some excellent drops for COR from those fights - Athos body from Botulus Rex, Tessera Saio from PW, Kudzu Aketon from Morta, pulse cells for big money - and considering that VW is going to be prime content for the next half a year and COR is one of the always in demand jobs in the event after being kind of a dead job during the prime of Abyssea, I would expect CORs in particular to have a little more self-respect.

This is why a lot of pickup VW players suck though, and why a lot of pickup groups fail miserably but if you go with a good group who cares you can do something like a 6x Botulus Rex run without issue.

At the very least, upgrade Coercion to lv10+ for 675k cruor. That extra 2/tic regain really can be the difference in hitting a needed proc to turn the tide of a tough fight.

And something like Destruction is cheap as **** (350k cruor) to take to lv10 for MAB+10. Would you spend the same amount of gil that you could get by NPCing 350k cruor worth of items, if that amount of gil bought you a piece of gear that added MAB+10 to your build? Say, upgrading from an AGI+7 Stormsoul ring to an AGI+7/MAB+10 ring. I bet most of you who care about your COR certainly would. In fact, I bet that piece of gear would sell for millions even if it is only useful in VW.

Edited, Jul 16th 2012 4:50pm by Anza
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#7 Jul 16 2012 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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I can see where this guy is coming from, but it's really a waste of cruor at this stage of Voidwatch. There's only a handful of fights left that you'll want to do more than once where your Atmacites may actually contribute to the difference between a win and a loss... and there's other things you could spend that gil on that would contribute a **** of a lot more in those situations, especially if you're back from a hiatus and need to get caught up.

Atmacites were great to have back before the cap went up to 99 and SE broke the event with temp item zergs, when the fights were still challenging... now they're just 1% on a parse. Save your cruor and fund a relic, it's a much better investment.

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I bet most of you who care about your COR certainly would. In fact, I bet that piece of gear would sell for millions even if it is only useful in VW.


I highly doubt it. Event-specific armor never sells well, except in the rare occurences where the base stats are useful.

Oh and btw, COR was not a dead job during Abyssea. o.O

Edited, Jul 16th 2012 6:35pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#8 Jul 16 2012 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
I can see where this guy is coming from, but it's really a waste of cruor at this stage of Voidwatch. There's only a handful of fights left that you'll want to do more than once where your Atmacites may actually contribute to the difference between a win and a loss... and there's other things you could spend that gil on that would contribute a **** of a lot more in those situations, especially if you're back from a hiatus and need to get caught up.


I don't think I'm alone in having very few gil items to obtain that would make a significant improvement to my COR, unless you're up for the huge task of buying plates to upgrade an Empy past lv90. In which case, the cost/benefit ratio isn't really getting you much improvement for the vast amounts of money you'll need to spend. And let's be honest, if you can fund an Empy95, you can also afford to spend some cruor on Atmacites.

COR will remain a popular VW job for the duration of the event. Spamming higher tier VW for Athos/Rubeus/Ogier gear, and Provenance for higher end players, is going to be a pretty common focus for much of the endgame community at least through 2012. Some of these fights ARE tough and you can use every advantage you can get, including Atmacite. So why not upgrade? If I knew someone had a couple decent atmacite, I'd certainly pick that person over someone filling the same role who didn't. At least it shows some dedication (a sign of a more serious player who understands what they're doing in other areas), as opposed to some of the awful pick-up VW participants who barely even understand how to proc.

Anyway, to each his own. Maybe you just don't like VW and plan to do very little of the higher tier fights. But for those who are interested in which Atmacites are good for COR, like the OP, I think I hit the highlights. Even if you're not willing to make a big commitment, it's not very costly to at least upgrade a couple good ones to lv10 (going from 1-10 costs less than half the cruor it costs to go from 11-15). At a minimum, Coercion is helpful for ANY job trying to hit WS procs, including COR. It's the one Atmacite that really can easily make the difference in a smooth win or an ugly experience (you won't always have temp wings when you need to try WS procs, and procs are absolutely vital). If you're planning to spend any significant amount of time doing VW, at least consider that one to level 10+.

LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Oh and btw, COR was not a dead job during Abyssea. o.O


What game were you playing?
(1) COR has no yellow and few red/blue procs.
(2) People had no real need for COR buffs because Atma are far better.
(3) Lowman stuff like farming empy weapon/armor items is much more efficient with other jobs (useful roles include tank/DD, healer, proc job or two, treasure hunter - none of which are filled by a COR.
(4) COR wasn't particularly useful for stuff like Fell Cleave parties or Amber light KI farming.
(5) Ranged attacking in general went into the toilet compared to melee (and costs ammo/gil to shoot for subpar damage), taking away one of COR's specialties.
(6) Even a competent DD-focused COR (Wildfire, etc) was pretty irrelevant since any other DD could do the same thing with more benefit (in having more procs, better tanking ability, better take advantage of crit atma, etc), and often damage output is less important than hitting procs anyway.

The only thing COR truly did have going for it in Abyssea was being arguably the most efficient Brew job with Wildfire and proper atma. And while sometimes useful (e.g. killing a lv90 empy item NM as many times as possible on one brew), that's a pretty niche use. At the same time, the only other event of note during the Abyssea area was Neo-Dynamis. Where again, outside of ADL, COR was fairly irrelevant thanks to the focus on procs/lowman farming.

You're insane if you think demand for CORs isn't MUCH, MUCH higher now that VW is the current king of endgame activity until the new expansion next year. Pretty much every alliance wants at least one and preferably multiple CORs. I can assume that of my 7 lv99 jobs, most VW parties will want me on COR. In Abyssea, I can practically guarantee you one of my other jobs would be more desirable 99% of the time.
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#9 Jul 16 2012 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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The only thing COR truly did have going for it in Abyssea was being arguably the most efficient Brew job with Wildfire and proper atma. And while sometimes useful (e.g. killing a lv90 empy item NM as many times as possible on one brew), that's a pretty niche use.


There is no need to explain how Abyssea works to me. COR, niche? Niche to somebody that didn't have somewhere in the neighborhood of 450 Azdaja and 450 Apademak trophies to farm, maybe. See, once you're all grown up and finished getting all your yellow proc gear, and moved past the blue proc gear, all that's left to do in there is Empyreans, for which COR is indispensable if you'd rather not spend months and months at it.

A COR can 2 shot so many NMs with a brew if they know what they're doing that, when you consider that a brew costs 531k, calculate how much time each brew saves you, and then compare against how much gil you can make in that time doing other activities, COR brewing saves you both time and money in the long run. To those of us for whom Abyssea is mostly in the rearview, COR is one of the preeminent jobs for the event.

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I don't think I'm alone in having very few gil items to obtain that would make a significant improvement to my COR, unless you're up for the huge task of buying plates to upgrade an Empy past lv90.


Is COR your only job? Do you expect everyone else who levels COR to not level anything else? Do you expect that those that do level other jobs not spend any money on those jobs? Opportunity costs, my friend. Doing 1% more damage in temp zerg Voidwatch fights may be, in your opinion, a good expenditure of resources, but I'm pretty sure there are those that would disagree, especially when they could spend an equal amount of cruor>gil and buy something that would increase another job's performance by more than 1%.

No other event in the game asks you to invest millions and millions of gil worth of resources for such a marginal, ultimately unnecessary advantage. Any sober cost/benefit analysis will clearly show that you should save your cruor.

And by sober, I don't mean this:

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For people who actually take pride in performing well in some of the harder VW fights

or this:
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OK, have fun being cheap (and moderately gimp). Your call.

or this:
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This is why a lot of pickup VW players suck though, and why a lot of pickup groups fail miserably


That's just ego talking. Buffs and temps (and knowing when to use them / having them macroed) are 97% of Voidwatch.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#10 Jul 17 2012 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Niche to somebody that didn't have somewhere in the neighborhood of 450 Azdaja and 450 Apademak trophies to farm, maybe.


I don't think most people have 900 Azdaja/Apademak trophies to farm. But if you do, you're absolutely right that COR is an excellent job to brew those (as I previously highlighted as the one highlight for COR in Abyssea) and maybe you want to put all your cruor toward that.

If you're arguing COR wasn't ignored for most of the Abyssea era on pretty much everything else, then you're just plain wrong. To most people, a handful of tough brew NMs for 90 Empy trophies are simply not a large portion of Abyssea in comparison to the many other activities during Abyssea's prime - Empy to 85, farming pop sets, getting +1/+2 items, exp, FC parties, cruor parties, atma, gold box farming... COR isn't particularly desirable compared to other jobs for ANY of those things that made up the bulk of most players' Abyssea time.

There are always exceptions, some LS that brings a COR to everything, just like someone might use PUP in a wide variety of situations where it's obviously not common among the community at large. That doesn't mean COR was overall a very popular job in Abyssea. Not that I find it too unfair, since COR was an always desired job in most 75cap content (especially meripo), and is again regarded as a priority in VW now.

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That's just ego talking. Buffs and temps (and knowing when to use them / having them macroed) are 97% of Voidwatch.


Most stuff in FFXI is just ego talking. People will still pay big money for an HQ piece of gear when the NQ is dirt cheap and would realistically not make the difference between success and failure.

And you forget to mention "procs" as THE key to VW along with use of temps. Hey guess what, the atmacite everyone pretty much agrees on as THE most useful for any job using WS procs (including COR) is Coercion, which is all about getting procs with regain. I know you get temp wings and can build TP fast. Extra TP for when you don't have wings is still undeniably useful and can be vital to resetting the whole alliance's temps and turning a close call into a win instead of a wipe.

If you make an informed decision to save cruor instead of going all out on Atmacite, your call and there are rational arguments for it. But if you plan to do significant amounts of high level VW fights (honestly probably gonna remain the premier event in FFXI for the next half a year) the and don't AT LEAST get lv10 Coercion for 2/tic regain, I call you gimp.

It's not that expensive to get to lv10, it's something like 1.3 mil gil worth of cruor if you were taking the time to sell Choco Blinkers. If 1.3 million gil is a make or break thing for you with how money grows on trees in today's FFXI, you have bigger issues.
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#11 Jul 18 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Default
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If you're arguing COR wasn't ignored for most of the Abyssea era on pretty much everything else, then you're just plain wrong.


Did I say this anywhere? If you're going to argue my points, make sure you stay on-topic.

Quote:
And you forget to mention "procs" as THE key to VW along with use of temps. Hey guess what, the atmacite everyone pretty much agrees on as THE most useful for any job using WS procs (including COR) is Coercion, which is all about getting procs with regain.


...you do realize that we (we being the group that got the first NA PW win) all stopped using Regain rolls/Atmacite, like, 4 months ago, right? Because it's completely unnecessary for proccing if your group isn't a bunch of mouth-breathing retards?

I find it highly amusing that you're calling people gimp for not using Regain Atmacite when that's pretty much the gold standard for those who don't know what they're doing in Voidwatch. I bet you still use Tactician/Miser, don't you?

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If 1.3 million gil is a make or break thing for you with how money grows on trees in today's FFXI, you have bigger issues.


When one needs somewhere in the neighborhood of 200mil to upgrade an Empyrean then yes, spending 1.3mil on something that is 100%, completely unnecessary is rather counterproductive.

Edited, Jul 18th 2012 11:55am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#12 Jul 18 2012 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
If you're arguing COR wasn't ignored for most of the Abyssea era on pretty much everything else, then you're just plain wrong.


Did I say this anywhere? If you're going to argue my points, make sure you stay on-topic.


It feels like you're just trying to argue for argument's sake now. You took issue with me saying that COR's usefulness in Abyssea was limited to the niche use of Brew/Wildfire situations and that otherwise it was a dead job in the Abyssea era. At any rate, this is a pretty big diversion from the topic anyway so I'm happy to drop the Abyssea talk.

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I find it highly amusing that you're calling people gimp for not using Regain Atmacite when that's pretty much the gold standard for those who don't know what they're doing in Voidwatch. I bet you still use Tactician/Miser, don't you?


Thanks for trying to call me out, but no, I use Chaos/Fighter's on my melees. I do regularly drop Tactician's on only myself when I'm at range, both because I get more personal benefit from it than Fighter's and to allow me to cycle rolls better.

The big difference here is that Tactician's is WORSE than the most productive two options for melee rolls. If you're talking about atmacite, regain is generally a BETTER option than the alternative atmacite choices (which you yourself say are lackluster). Just because regain doesn't win in one situation doesn't mean it isn't a good choice in a comparison of completely different options. Apples/Oranges.

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...you do realize that we (we being the group that got the first NA PW win) all stopped using Regain rolls/Atmacite, like, 4 months ago, right? Because it's completely unnecessary for proccing if your group isn't a bunch of mouth-breathing retards?

I find it highly amusing that you're calling people gimp for not using Regain Atmacite when that's pretty much the gold standard for those who don't know what they're doing in Voidwatch. I bet you still use Tactician/Miser, don't you?


Brag about your PW wins all you want, and I'm sure you have an LS full of well geared good players. If you want to skip atmacite and you're comfortable that VW is easy enough for you without it, congratulations to you and good luck on your drops. I, and most players, probably don't go with a group as strong across the board as yours. Maybe there are some pickup players that aren't exactly optimal. That makes it a little more dicey on the tougher fights, say a Botulus Rex or Ig-Alima. Many times I've seen the group struggling while waiting on that important EX proc, or in a situation where Fanatic's is down and if the mob uses a nasty TP move before we hit a proc, people will die.

I'm more than willing to spend what I could make in a couple hours of farming to give myself an extra edge every VW fight. I done a **** of a lot more wasteful things with a couple hours worth of FFXI time.

Not trying to turn this into a 1-on-1 personal attack here, I think we've both made our points pretty clear. And while you seem pretty set in your opinion for yourself, I'd caution against applying that to everyone else who might not have the same LS resources at their disposal and really need that extra little edge more than you do.
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#13 Jul 18 2012 at 10:48 AM Rating: Default
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My LS has 2 members across 4 characters.

3/tick regain while not meleeing is one WS every 102 seconds; if your group isn't restoring temps more frequently than that, you deserve the wipe that's coming to you; and if they are, well, using that tp wing invalidates all that regained TP, making it entirely useless. If they are meleeing, one assumes they have Haste/Marches, so you're looking at maybe on less attack round for dual-wielders, and no likely benefit to 2-handers.

Regain. Atmacite. Is. Worthless.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#14 Jul 18 2012 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm done replying to you after this, no point in arguing. If you can't see that there's some benefit in having an extra amount of regain/tic shaving an attack or two off the x-hits needed to get 100tp and try another WS for proc, I don't know what else to tell you. What I do know is that when you get something like an EX Marksmanship proc paired with a bunch of other procs the alliance might not have (HV pet/automaton, etc), every few seconds counts and an attack round or two matters. WS, use your wing, WS again, then keep on trying till you hit the proc and reset temps.

Will let people make their own judgments here. I suspect most people get that having additional beneficial stats is better than not having them. Whether it's worth the cost for something that is exclusive to one event is something you can decide for yourself, I personally think it is since I do a decent amount of high level VW.
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#15 Jul 20 2012 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
I'm done replying to you after this, no point in arguing. If you can't see that there's some benefit in having an extra amount of regain/tic shaving an attack or two off the x-hits needed to get 100tp and try another WS for proc, I don't know what else to tell you. What I do know is that when you get something like an EX Marksmanship proc paired with a bunch of other procs the alliance might not have (HV pet/automaton, etc), every few seconds counts and an attack round or two matters. WS, use your wing, WS again, then keep on trying till you hit the proc and reset temps.

Will let people make their own judgments here. I suspect most people get that having additional beneficial stats is better than not having them. Whether it's worth the cost for something that is exclusive to one event is something you can decide for yourself, I personally think it is since I do a decent amount of high level VW.


Not sure what you are killing where that regain atma is useful and your not getting temps left and right from procs or in a situation where you can't just /fume. I have to agree with lyl on this one.
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#16 Jul 22 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
3/tick regain while not meleeing is one WS every 102 seconds


That's not really the proper way to rate regain >_> You have to look at whether or not it takes a round off your number of hits to reach 100 tp. If it does, it's very likely providing you with more than just one "additional" WS every 102 seconds.

At any rate, I heart my Coercion atma. Getting a relatively constant 6/tic in lolwatch is nice.
#17 Jul 22 2012 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Regardless, burning cruor on this event at this stage in its life is pointless. I do actually care about my COR, a lot though I never get to play it. The problem is VW shouts for stuff I need are far and few, really only need tocis body now.

While Gil is easy to come by, for whatever reason most people don't have it, and asking them to drop 675k cruor which is like 6 mil on a stat boost for an event that is finished and is in its late stage of life is a bit absurd. The gear will no doubt be dwarfed by stuff in SOA, so saving your gil for then is probably a better bet.
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#18 Jul 22 2012 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
3/tick regain while not meleeing is one WS every 102 seconds


That's not really the proper way to rate regain >_> You have to look at whether or not it takes a round off your number of hits to reach 100 tp. If it does, it's very likely providing you with more than just one "additional" WS every 102 seconds.


Eh?

In response though, If you read further in that very same post that you quoted, you may see this:

Lyltia wrote:
If they are meleeing, one assumes they have Haste/Marches, so you're looking at maybe one less attack round for dual-wielders, and no likely benefit to 2-handers.


Zero to marginal benefit in one event that has been done to death and holds few challenges at this stage for 1.8mil. Not my idea of a good investment; your mileage may vary.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#19 Jul 25 2012 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:

Is COR your only job? Do you expect everyone else who levels COR to not level anything else? Do you expect that those that do level other jobs not spend any money on those jobs? Opportunity costs, my friend. Doing 1% more damage in temp zerg Voidwatch fights may be, in your opinion, a good expenditure of resources, but I'm pretty sure there are those that would disagree, especially when they could spend an equal amount of cruor>gil and buy something that would increase another job's performance by more than 1%.



Lol this post made me laugh, 1% increase in performance, seriously?

Atmacite of Slayer is fire elemental attack+15 plus 10+ AGI
Atmacite of destruction is MAB+15
Atmacite of corecion is AGI+5 and regain

Now that's compare a COR/BLM with temp but no atmacite, v.s COR/BLM with temp and upgraded those above 3 atmacite, using my current set here:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/202185. Buffs are firestorm+No.5 wizards roll, enemy has 100 INT. Replace belt with Obi for firestorm.

COR/BLM with just gears has 213 AGI 56 MAB total if it's hume with Obi. Add Braver+15 AGI, Food+5 AGI, Ascetics:+25 MAB No.5 wizards:+10 MAB


Wildfire formula:
[floor(5.5 * (Lv + 2 + floor(.85 * floor(AGI * .6))))] + [2 * (Your AGI-Enemy INT)] * mab * staff bonus * day/weather bonuses

COR/BLM dmg without atmacite:
233 AGI, 91 MAB total.

(5.5x(101+118))+(2x(233-100))=1204+266=1470
1470x1.91x1.15x1.2=3874

COR/BLM dmg with those above 3 atmacite:
248 AGI, 106 MAB total.

(5.5x(101+126))+(2x(248-100))=1248+296=1544
1544x2.06x1.15x1.15x1.2=5047

Your WF dmg jump from 3874 to 5074 with atmacite, last time I checked, that's over 30% increase, not 1%. I did not even calculate WS frequency and QD dmg increase. Stop giving misleading info that upgrade atmacite only gives 1% increase. But apparently your LS is too pimp to even care about a buff/mule job's dmg output in VW.

Now that's calculate gil value for those atmacite.

Corecion=1,575,000
Destruction=750,000
Slayer=1,575,000

3,900,000 cruor total
Cruor:gil ratio is 1:2.17 I think?

So that's

8.463M worth of cruor.

8.463M is only like, less than 10% cost of your precious relic, and it gave over 30%(probably even 40% if you count QD dmg and WS frequency increase) dmg boost in VW. Can you please name me all relic(not Mythic, if you want to build Mythic which costs 600M you may as well ignore mere 8M in cruor), or even gears, that has 30%~40% dmg boost over cheaper alternatives? Does using Rag 95 over Ig-Alima GS or magian GS make your reso jump from 3.8k to 5k? Does using Amano over lv90 Masa or TP Bonus GK make your Shoha jump from 3.8k to 5k? Which relic exactly, makes bigger difference than atmacite for COR?

8M for 30%~40% dmg boost, that's one of the best effort/reward ratio in this game, stop giving misleading info.

Now that's onto the topic of whether it's win or wipe in VW. I'm pretty sure a B.rex pt or Bismarck pt, 4 WF COR with full atmacite v.s no atmacite, there will be a huge difference in killing speed. And killing speed directly affects the efficiency, win rate(the slower you kill,the easier to wipe), and how enjoyable it is for that run. Once I joined a JP Bismarck run(I wasn't on COR), they wiped 3 times, took total of 1hr 40 min for 6 pops. Another Bismarck pt I made, 6x pop took 37min to kill(I was on COR for this one, a job that you don't think dmg is important, and parsed over 20%). Now tell me, which pt you'd want to join? 1hr 40 min pt or 37min pt?
If you'd rather join bad pt that kill slow, or not willing to contribute dmg in a pt for 1/10 of your precious relic fund, then it's your call, but don't whine if others call you gimp and give misleading info.

It's your own business if you think your LS is pimp and doesn't need atmacite, and it's your own business that if you don't plan to do a lot of VW and don't want to spend 8.4M on atmacite. But that kind of attitude(Atmacite not worth upgrading) is exactly the reason why nearly every PUG COR I pt with doesn't parse high, roll and gtfo, further giving the impression that COR dmg isn't important in VW. I can give you all the parse, to prove that COR with atmacite contributes in pt much greater than COR without, especially on B.rex/Bismarck/Provenance KI BC x3 fight.

Do relic all you want if you don't like this job and don't plan to play it well, but leave those who care about the job and want to improve their job's performance a chance to improve, ty. If anyone plan to do VW for considerable amount of time or still need some gears in VW, atmacite is very good investment.





Edited, Jul 25th 2012 10:42pm by Afania

Edited, Jul 25th 2012 10:53pm by Afania
#20 Jul 25 2012 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
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That's a real pretty wall o' text there, but you're arguing against a point that was never made.

Scroll up; the debate at the point where I made the post you quoted was whether or not Regain atma was worth it, and I stand by my estimations in that scenario. The 1% was regarding your share of the parse, not the increase to individual damage.

Also, cruor:gil is 1:2.655.

If you're going to stick your head in this debate long after it's over, at least try to pick up where we left off, ty.

On a side note, I'm curious... do you eat the most expensive food, bring piles of meds, and fire off the most expensive ammo in every event you do? Because if you don't, your argument is *********

Edited, Jul 25th 2012 10:49pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#21 Jul 25 2012 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
That's a real pretty wall o' text there, but you're arguing against a point that was never made.

Scroll up; the debate at the point where I made the post you quoted was whether or not Regain atma was worth it, and I stand by my estimations in that scenario. The 1% was regarding your share of the parse, not the increase to individual damage.

Also, cruor:gil is 1:2.655.

If you're going to stick your head in this debate long after it's over, at least try to pick up where we left off, ty.

On a side note, I'm curious... do you eat the most expensive food, bring piles of meds, and fire off the most expensive ammo in every event you do? Because if you don't, your argument is bullsh*t.

Edited, Jul 25th 2012 10:49pm by LyltiaofLakshmi



Ok, 1:2.6 as you wish, about 10M, still 1/10 of relic, it doesn't suddenly become 100M and hand you a relic.

It's fact that Regain atmacite doesn't provide as much boost as Atmacite of slayer, Slayer atmacite is pretty much make or break for WF in VW. But I wasn't the one recommend Regain over anything to begin with. However, COR with slayer and without, their dmg difference is pretty huge, no one can't deny that. I did not point the argument specifically toward your regain good or bad debate, it was mostly about "atmacite not worth upgrading and better spend on relic" mentality. Unless you don't do VW at all, or just plan to do a few more and gtfo, it provide much bigger increase and cheaper than any relic for this specific job.

Oh and btw, even if you look at whole parse not individual difference, COR with atmacite and without, it's still over 1%.

And regarding your side note question, I don't understand your point of asking it? I always eat squid if I'm using WF(RCB or pot for last stand depending on Acc need) in VW, and use Orichalcum bullet for every WS/TP. I don't bring a bunch of med because it's mostly pointless in VW when I have temps, why does it make my argument BS? Not every food/med is necessary for every event, you don't need med for many VW, except holy water/poison pot for some of them, and don't really need RCB in event(none VW event) if your attack is close to cap. For some jobs, such as DRK on lower tier VW, do you require they bring RCB too or else my argument is invalid when they can totally cap attack with just YCB or even no food?

I don't understand your logic that "if you don't bring piles of meds your argument is BS". Are you seriously comparing the benefit of Atmacite of slayer v.s a Pile of Med in VW? Or are you just trying to find a reason to make my argument BS?








Edited, Jul 25th 2012 11:25pm by Afania
#22 Jul 25 2012 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you'd rather join bad pt that kill slow, or not willing to contribute dmg in a pt for 1/10 of your precious relic fund, then it's your call, but don't whine if others call you gimp and give misleading info.


Because here you make it sound as if a COR without Atmacites will either be forced to join bad parties that kill slowly, or that they aren't willing to contribute damage. Both are false. I mean, in your first post, you're advocating COR/BLM. You're harping how not using Atmacite makes you gimp/useless/lazy/whatever, but you're using an inferior subjob? Does not compute.

The fact is that Atmacite does not make or break any VW party; temps, gear, strategy do, in that order. You are advocating spending a sizeable chunk of resources that are unnecessary to win and non-transferable to other events, because 'If you don't you don't care about COR / are gimp / whatever'. You seem to be making a lot out of my comment on funding a relic... well guess what. That relic transfers to every event you do, and (depending on the relic) will give you a larger benefit in all of them than Atmacite does in Voidwatch. As for it only costing 1/10th of a relic? Well, that's Atmacites for just one job, and they're cheap ones at that. Most people have more than one job that they care about. You could easily spend enough cruor to equal a relic by maxing out enough Atmacites for every situation on every job for any given mob in Voidwatch. Besides, it's not even about a relic or empyrean or whatever. It's gil, it's a resource, and it buys a whole **** of a lot of stuff that's objectively more powerful than any combination of Atmacites currently in circulation.

It's a slippery slope, and it's a little too subjective for my taste... that other guy thinks you're gimp if you don't have coercion, now you're saying you need all 3 maxed, the next guy to come in here is going to say you're gimp unless you max all of them, etc. And you're all, to varying degrees, wrong.

Here's the litmus test for you. If a player shows up without temps, they're going to die in a hurry and be useless, and you'll notice. If a player shows up in lv75 gear, they're going to contribute much, much less than the other players, and you'll notice. But what if a well-geared player who uses their temps intelligently shows up and performs well? Will you really notice if they are or are not using Atmacite? The only honest answer to this question is 'of course not.'
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#23 Jul 25 2012 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
If you'd rather join bad pt that kill slow, or not willing to contribute dmg in a pt for 1/10 of your precious relic fund, then it's your call, but don't whine if others call you gimp and give misleading info.


Because here you make it sound as if a COR without Atmacites will either be forced to join bad parties that kill slowly, or that they aren't willing to contribute damage. Both are false. I mean, in your first post, you're advocating COR/BLM. You're harping how not using Atmacite makes you gimp/useless/lazy/whatever, but you're using an inferior subjob? Does not compute.

The fact is that Atmacite does not make or break any VW party; temps, gear, strategy do, in that order. You are advocating spending a sizeable chunk of resources that are unnecessary to win and non-transferable to other events, because 'If you don't you don't care about COR / are gimp / whatever'. You seem to be making a lot out of my comment on funding a relic... well guess what. That relic transfers to every event you do, and (depending on the relic) will give you a larger benefit in all of them than Atmacite does in Voidwatch. As for it only costing 1/10th of a relic? Well, that's Atmacites for just one job, and they're cheap ones at that. Most people have more than one job that they care about. You could easily spend enough cruor to equal a relic by maxing out enough Atmacites for every situation on every job for any given mob in Voidwatch. Besides, it's not even about a relic or empyrean or whatever. It's gil, it's a resource, and it buys a whole **** of a lot of stuff that's objectively more powerful than any combination of Atmacites currently in circulation.

It's a slippery slope, and it's a little too subjective for my taste... that other guy thinks you're gimp if you don't have coercion, now you're saying you need all 3 maxed, the next guy to come in here is going to say you're gimp unless you max all of them, etc. And you're all, to varying degrees, wrong.

Here's the litmus test for you. If a player shows up without temps, they're going to die in a hurry and be useless, and you'll notice. If a player shows up in lv75 gear, they're going to contribute much, much less than the other players, and you'll notice. But what if a well-geared player who uses their temps intelligently shows up and performs well? Will you really notice if they are or are not using Atmacite? The only honest answer to this question is 'of course not.'



COR/BLM.....inferior SJ....wut?

If you're spamming WF, and not using last stand, there are only 2 SJ you should be using in voidwatch. /BLM for MAB2, or /BLU for +11 AGI and MAB1. Every other SJ, /SAM, /WAR, /RDM doesn't parse higher than /BLM or /BLU due to lower WS/QD dmg. Unless nobody is firestorming you, then /SCH will pull ahead of /BLM in VW after this recent update thanks to new staff, but that wasn't the case when I added firestorm in calculation. /SAM falls way behind not just for COR due to lower WS dmg, but some other melee job such as DRK stopped subbing SAM depending on situation in VW either. It's just the way VW works, with all the temps, wings, regain, and 1000 DD spamming WS ruining SC, higher WS dmg wins over meditate every 3 min and sek every 5 min in the long run. I've tried both /SAM and high dmg SJ for VW spam, did the math, checked the parse, bigger WS dmg SJ parse higher. It's also generally public consensus that /BLM is superior to /SAM in VW on BG and AH.com.

Honestly, now not you're asking players don't upgrade atmacite, you're giving wrong info regarding optimal SJ, please stop.

I understand that everyone has limited resource, and did not say "if you don't have this and don't have that you're gimp", I said "if someone call you gimp because you refuse to upgrade atmacite, that's too bad", and I was specifically countering against atmacite doesn't make difference mentality, which is the main reason why majority of PUG bismarck pt spend 1000 years to kill one pop.

You asked if I use optimal food/ammo every event, I replied yes(unless I'm soloing then I won't use food), and even if I don't, atmacite of slayer still provide much bigger increase than optimal food/ammo for this particular WS. If you want to talk about limited resource and priority, atmacite is even ahead of MAB+2 bullet and optimal food. A COR cheap in food/ammo but with atmacite still deals way higher dmg than COR with food/ammo but no atmacite.

Of course, if you don't do a lot of VW, or plan not going to do any, then by all means spend them on relic. But if you do VW regularly on this job, there are no doubt that it's much bigger increase than relic. Yes relic transfer to every event, but atm, the only real EG event are just Odin2, legion and VW. By the time another new event came out and trash VW, god knows whether your relic is still optimal or not. I did not ask players to max out all atmacite for every job either, but just for this particular WS, atmacite makes bigger improvement than everything else due to how MAB and fire elemental attack works, that other atmacite for other jobs are hard to compete.

As previously stated, if any player intend to do VW on COR,by all means max out at least slayer, you can be cheap, no food, cheap bullet, but you will see much higher dmg increase with correct WF atmacite, hard to imagine any relic should take priority over that much WS dmg boost unless you don't do VW at all.

I was just trying to provide correct info regarding the gain and lost, reward and effort ratio regarding WF atmacite, it's really up to OP(or other COR player) to decide whether to invest or not depending on how long they want to do VW. But straight +15% WS dmg plus 10 AGI in one atmacite slot, for a 2k~3k WS on majority of NM except a few that has high MDB, seriously, not a lot of other gear/atmacite is THIS GOOD. And on B.rex/bismarck/prov 3 KI BC where WF deal much higher dmg than other WS, you will see a much faster killing speed and smoother run with atmacite upgrade. Saying they're not worth it only applies if you never intend to do VW anymore, or unless you never play this job in VW, which apparently isn't OP's intention.

Saying atmacite didn't make or break compare with gear/strategy is also completely false info.....there are no real "strategy" in VW, they're just temp zerg and stun moves. When you temp zerg what is most important? Your output. And when atmacite give you 30%~40% dmg increase in output, you still going to pretend it doesn't affect your performance? For other jobs atmacite may not be worth upgrading, but WF, it just happened to get this much benefit from atmacite, that it makes fairly noticeable difference. If you can't see this you're blind.

Seriously, stop giving false info regarding reward/effort ratio and priority, and stop giving false info regarding optimal SJ.




Edited, Jul 26th 2012 1:28am by Afania
#24 Jul 25 2012 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Given half the COR's I've seen in VW only roll and do nothing else useful, and we still win the fights, atmacite has limited usefulness in 95% of VW currently. Only PW, B Rex and Bismarck give average PUG VW groups fits these days.

Are we advocating 10 million Gil for something with utility in 3 fights in the game?

My personal view has always been, gear as well as you need to complete the task. If you are struggling, take time out to improve your gear. Plenty of people have fun in the game with less than A plus gear. No point in making such a huge fuss about these things.
____________________________
Mirabelle
Race: Mithra
Server: Ifrit
75COR/75RDM/75RNG/45THF/37BLM/38WHM/37NIN/37DRK/41BLU/37DNC/37SAM/37WAR/37SCH
#25 Jul 25 2012 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Given half the COR's I've seen in VW only roll and do nothing else useful, and we still win the fights, atmacite has limited usefulness in 95% of VW currently. Only PW, B Rex and Bismarck give average PUG VW groups fits these days.

Are we advocating 10 million Gil for something with utility in 3 fights in the game?

My personal view has always been, gear as well as you need to complete the task. If you are struggling, take time out to improve your gear. Plenty of people have fun in the game with less than A plus gear. No point in making such a huge fuss about these things.



You still spam WF in other fights, just that I found those 3 fights are where WF pulls ahead of other WS to affect killing speed greatly, doesn't mean you don't use the WS in other fights.

We're not discussing about "whether we can win the fights or not without atmacite". We're talking about "whether atmacite really makes a difference or not". It's not 10M for 3 fights in this game, it's 10M for 30%~40% increase in dmg.

As I said before, if you can't afford it, would rather want a relic(which in no way providing 30% dmg boost over cheaper alternatives and also doesn't make or break in any event except relic gun for Odin2), by all means go ahead. But don't come up to the forum and tell everyone else that atmacite doesn't make a difference, that's wrong info.

Edited, Jul 26th 2012 1:26am by Afania
#26 Jul 25 2012 at 11:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Seriously, stop giving false info regarding reward/effort ratio and priority, and stop giving false info regarding optimal SJ.


/RDM, for one, gives MAB3 same as BLM, and comes with some genuinely useful support magic compared to /BLM. /BLU results in more damage than both, and as you said, /SCH trumps all if you don't have somebody Firestorming you religiously. Sounds kinda inferior to me~

As for false info, you're simply not taking into account the fact that even with that kind of damage boost, the NM dies, what, a few seconds earlier than it would without? Yeah. If you are the only DD then yes, it results in a 30% or whatever increase to output, and a like reduction in killspeed. But, since you are but one of many DDs, and the NM has a finite amount of HP, well, the amount of damage that 30% translates into is much less impressive. Assuming you're not in one of these fail PUGs you keep mentioning, it will be paltry indeed. An Atmacited COR in one of those fail PUGs does not equate success, or even a better chance at success; it results in a dead COR who deals zero damage. Conversely, an Atmacited COR in a non-fail group, PUG or otherwise, is just speeding up an already fast kill by a paltry amount.

If you think that's worth the gil, fine, but don't accuse me of spreading misinformation simply because you disagree with my reasoning.

I mean, this?

Quote:
But don't come up to the forum and tell everyone else that atmacite doesn't make a difference, that's wrong info.


Of course it makes a difference; nobody is arguing that it doesn't. What is being argued is that the difference on the macro level is negligible-to-nonexistent. You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't make this any less true.

Edited, Jul 26th 2012 1:38am by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#27 Jul 26 2012 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Seriously, stop giving false info regarding reward/effort ratio and priority, and stop giving false info regarding optimal SJ.


/RDM, for one, gives MAB3 same as BLM, and comes with some genuinely useful support magic compared to /BLM. /BLU results in more damage than both, and as you said, /SCH trumps all if you don't have somebody Firestorming you religiously. Sounds kinda inferior to me~

As for false info, you're simply not taking into account the fact that even with that kind of damage boost, the NM dies, what, a few seconds earlier than it would without? Yeah. If you are the only DD then yes, it results in a 30% or whatever increase to output, and a like reduction in killspeed. But, since you are but one of many DDs, and the NM has a finite amount of HP, well, the amount of damage that 30% translates into is much less impressive. Assuming you're not in one of these fail PUGs you keep mentioning, it will be paltry indeed. An Atmacited COR in one of those fail PUGs does not equate success, or even a better chance at success; it results in a dead COR who deals zero damage. Conversely, an Atmacited COR in a non-fail group, PUG or otherwise, is just speeding up an already fast kill by a paltry amount.

If you think that's worth the gil, fine, but don't accuse me of spreading misinformation simply because you disagree with my reasoning.

I mean, this?

Quote:
But don't come up to the forum and tell everyone else that atmacite doesn't make a difference, that's wrong info.


Of course it makes a difference; nobody is arguing that it doesn't. What is being argued is that the difference on the macro level is negligible-to-nonexistent. You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't make this any less true.

Edited, Jul 26th 2012 1:38am by LyltiaofLakshmi


/BLM has higher AGI than /RDM and same tier of MAB, thus making it superior than /RDM in terms of pure dmg output. It's ok if you want to /RDM, there are no deny that /RDM has more defensive/support ability, but it does not out dmg /BLM, and lack of support/defensive ability doesn't make /BLM "inferior" in VW with temps to stay alive. If saying /BLM is "inferior" is not wrong info, than what is right info?

How does COR with atmacite will result dead COR who deal zero damage, when you just proc, zerg, pop fana, proc? But fine, say if a successful ally with 2 COR doing 30% more dmg is less make or break in a pimp pt with super elite DD, you still didn't reply which relic exactly, is more make or break than 30% more dmg you can deal.

I can argue that upgrading Masa 90/TP bonus GK to Amano 95 is less make or break in terms of total pt dmg output and you can still kill fast enough with just Masa 90/TP bonus GK. I can argue that upgrading Magian GS or Ig-alima GS to Rag 95 or Apoc, you don't have more dmg increase than COR with atmacite. None of the relic in this game is truely make or break, nor they do 30% more dmg in an endgame event over cheaper alternatives. The Aegis that showed in your signature, I've done and every event, legion, every VW especially the one with adds, Odin 2, with Ochain PLD without aegis and they still got the job done, thus that's also a relic not make or break in term of success.(No offense and not trying to devalue your relic, just stating fact that anything that needs a PLD Ochain can get the job done, not counting efficiency)

The original OP asked which atmacite to upgrade so he can deal more dmg in VW on COR, pointed out that he wants to do more dmg in VW on COR, entire ally's performance isn't relevant in such discussion. Then suddenly everyone pop out, telling him it's not worth it and better to spend on relic because you can win every VW without atmacite, without providing which relic exactly is required to do any event and make or break either. You can tell everyone that 30% dmg increase on COR is not a lot in entire ally, but you can't deny the fact that majority of other gear, including relic that everyone loves, also doesn't boost your performance as much, and often cost more. You build relic so your NM dies a few sec faster too no? So what's the difference between spending 10M on atmacite so NM dies few sec faster, or spend 110M on relic so NM die a few sec faster too?

Inb4 110M so NM dies few sec faster in legion+VW instead of just VW. They're not much different if you still do VW regularly.

You think that's subjective thing, but I think it's misleading if you tell everyone that spending 110M so NM dies few sec faster on DRK in legion+VW makes bigger difference than spending 10M so NM dies few sec faster on COR in VW. You're making it sound like relic is bigger improvement than atmacite, but the fact is, it's not.










Edited, Jul 26th 2012 2:25am by Afania
#28 Jul 26 2012 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I just looked and yeah, 3 less AGI on /RDM. Have to admit that was surprising, so I concede that point. /BLM still isn't the best choice for damage though. Inferior does not equal 'worst' or even 'bad'; simply that it's not the best.

As you stated in your inb4s, relics carry over into any and every event you do... but Atmacites don't. That includes all currently relevant endgame content as well as new content released down the road. That makes Atmacite a short-term, narrow investment, while relics are a long-term, broad investment. But, again, you're running with the relic angle. Gil buys a lot more than relics.

So in effect, it's a disagreement over a short-term investment with decreasing returns, and a long-term investment with increasing returns. As in, when you stop doing Voidwatch, that Atmacite becomes useless; but that relic keeps on being a relic as long as you play the game, and is very unlikely to diminish in actual value.

To me, it's pretty clear which investment provides the best returns.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#29 Jul 26 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
How does COR with atmacite will result dead COR who deal zero damage, when you just proc, zerg, pop fana, proc? But fine, say if a successful ally with 2 COR doing 30% more dmg is less make or break in a pimp pt with super elite DD, you still didn't reply which relic exactly, is more make or break than 30% more dmg you can deal.


I think the reasoning was in this setting:
bad PUG VW group. Pimped COR with pimped atmacite will now be the biggest DD'er in the group and will therefore take the most hate and have the NM on him. While fanatics is good, it doesn't block all damage and bad PUG's also have more trouble with procs meaning fanatics are not as readily refreshed. Therefore dead COR either from non-physical damage or from fanatics wearing. Trust me, I've been that COR in a bad Pil PUG. It can happen even without the best gear and atma.

In a great VW group, a pimped out COR now becomes irrelevant since that group can take out anything provided the COR gives them some handy buffs and someone keeps the procs going. In that setting the difference in outcome from Atmacites is a very tiny kill speed improvement rather than a complete wipe vs win scenario.

Personally I've been building my atmacites mostly because I like to see what i can do damage wise on COR, but I'm not foolish enough to think I'm making a huge difference in outcome because of it. After seeing so many half *** COR's be successful in VW, its clear that uber COR"s are not relevant in the eyes of the Vanadiel population.
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Race: Mithra
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#30 Jul 28 2012 at 2:57 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Well I just looked and yeah, 3 less AGI on /RDM. Have to admit that was surprising, so I concede that point. /BLM still isn't the best choice for damage though. Inferior does not equal 'worst' or even 'bad'; simply that it's not the best.

As you stated in your inb4s, relics carry over into any and every event you do... but Atmacites don't. That includes all currently relevant endgame content as well as new content released down the road. That makes Atmacite a short-term, narrow investment, while relics are a long-term, broad investment. But, again, you're running with the relic angle. Gil buys a lot more than relics.

So in effect, it's a disagreement over a short-term investment with decreasing returns, and a long-term investment with increasing returns. As in, when you stop doing Voidwatch, that Atmacite becomes useless; but that relic keeps on being a relic as long as you play the game, and is very unlikely to diminish in actual value.

To me, it's pretty clear which investment provides the best returns.


Lol still defending for your wording I see, but fine, defend w/e, not going to change the fact that /BLM does more dmg than /RDM.

Every gear is short term investment, since you never know which gear,or even relic, remain useful or not after a while. 1 year ago, if you ask which relic to build on DRK,everyone and their mother will reply Apoc. So anyone who build an apoc on that time pretty much just got trashed on parse when reso came out. Ppl who spent 2M on Hagun 3 years ago, now it doesn't worth nearly as much. You can spend your 10M on +7 STR ring or M.Oto+1, god knows when new expansion,they still remain top gear or not. I wouldn't think that far when I decide which gear to invest in, or else that's face it, every gear doesn't last long. I've know enough DRK invested time in empy GA during Abyssea era, only ended up doing Rag 2 years later and toss that Cala...it also wouldn't be fair to judge others using your case....for some ppl VW consists 0~1% of event they do, for some ppl VW consists 30%~50%. And atmacite for COR is way better investment than relic/gears if VW consists more than 10% of event you do on this job. You can't predict the future, just like you don't know if you will still do VW after 6 months, you also don't know the relic/gear you spend 10M on still worth as much after 6 months. So why are you spending gil on gear/relic? Because you want to get the benefit from it now no?



Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
How does COR with atmacite will result dead COR who deal zero damage, when you just proc, zerg, pop fana, proc? But fine, say if a successful ally with 2 COR doing 30% more dmg is less make or break in a pimp pt with super elite DD, you still didn't reply which relic exactly, is more make or break than 30% more dmg you can deal.


I think the reasoning was in this setting:
bad PUG VW group. Pimped COR with pimped atmacite will now be the biggest DD'er in the group and will therefore take the most hate and have the NM on him. While fanatics is good, it doesn't block all damage and bad PUG's also have more trouble with procs meaning fanatics are not as readily refreshed. Therefore dead COR either from non-physical damage or from fanatics wearing. Trust me, I've been that COR in a bad Pil PUG. It can happen even without the best gear and atma.

In a great VW group, a pimped out COR now becomes irrelevant since that group can take out anything provided the COR gives them some handy buffs and someone keeps the procs going. In that setting the difference in outcome from Atmacites is a very tiny kill speed improvement rather than a complete wipe vs win scenario.

Personally I've been building my atmacites mostly because I like to see what i can do damage wise on COR, but I'm not foolish enough to think I'm making a huge difference in outcome because of it. After seeing so many half *** COR's be successful in VW, its clear that uber COR"s are not relevant in the eyes of the Vanadiel population.



So this scenario only applies to COR, but doesn't apply to DRK WAR MNK SAM? >.>
I'd say it's exactly the opposite, in a bad PUG pt, COR will have higher survive-ability than other type of melee DD doing same amount of dmg, that if you change that pimped out DD from COR to other job, you will more likely to die first and deal even less dmg.
Simply because WF is ranged WS, you can WS outside of AoE range and don't need fana until you pulled hate, so your fana actually last longer. You also build hate a bit slower due to WF additional effect. Change COR to a melee, you need to use fana right from the start, the moment it wears is the moment you will die. In fact, according to my experience, a VW pt with bad proc is usually the pt where COR parses higher, often beating melees, where all procs are smooth and fight ends in 1~3 min, is where COR falls behind melees.

If the pt is pimped out, then "you're not contributing a lot of % in entire ally" can apply to every job, when everyone is contributing, and ally has 7~8 DDs, of course each individual has smaller % in the group. You may as well tell everyone don't spend gil on relic/food/STR+7 ring etc because other DD in pt can do the job and you're just that small 10% in ally. You're not going to wipe without a relic/+7 STR ring/ and so on.

In fact, out of all the event ever exist, COR has pretty high % in VW ally on majority of VW(except a few) compare with other events, just because of how VW works....favors high WS dmg job with all the free TP, and many mobs weak against WF. If you tell me COR has low % in legion/ADL, I will agree with you, that you can go naked on this job and get the job done, while dmg irrelevant. But VW? COR is actually pretty close to real DDs in VW in terms of %, that invest in atmacite will greatly help your ally. I don't deny that a very well geared elite melee will outparse COR with enough haste, but the gap isn't as big as none-VW event, you guys sound like melees is doing 20% while COR doing 5%.

If you don't believe it, you can check here:

http://pastebin.com/d4anjFp6


Maddening+seductive parse, I did 13% on COR total, 3.3k WF avg. Changed name of other ppl to protect privacy. Just to be fair SAM was holding another NM, and Rag 99 DRK was proccing, thus has lower %. Otherwise DRK would parse higher, doesn't mean COR is THAT behind like you make it sound to be. Say if atmacite makes 30%~40% difference, you will lose 30k+ total dmg in entire ally, which is by no means small %(bigger than 1%, lol).


In an event when fight ends fast:

http://pastebin.com/zZiCN5z8

Seductive end in 3:18, this is done before Arma 99/new staff added, so WF avg wasn't as high as now. But still 19% in 3 min 18 sec fight. 30% of my individual dmg would worth about 5% in ally. SAM holding another NM again so SAM's % doesn't count.

And just in case you're wondering why I always post melees losing, to be fair I can post melee winning one too.

http://pastebin.com/nRQ1QtU5

Same pt setup as previous one, but Maddening BC, end in 1 min 45 sec(end when I just start to engage), I didn't do very well, but my individual 30% still worth more than 1% in ally.


Another one combined all 3 BC

http://pastebin.com/6APYEwFr

Again, my 30% is worth about 5% in entire ally, so does other fight I posted. I don't know how pimp the DDs you pt with, maybe much pimper than DDs in my ally. But personally I think atmacite upgrade for this job is well worth it, unlike majority of other atmacite in this game, gives much dmg boost in entire ally than majority of other gears worth this much.

Personally I wouldn't say COR dmg is THAT irrelevant in VW.....I agree it's much more irrelevant in legion, ADL, w/e other event, but just not VW, this event is MADE for DD COR, and there are little reason not to upgrade it if you do VW on this job. Especially in OP's case, he already had enough cruor to upgrade above mentioned 3 atmacite, and instead of upgrading proper atmacite to help his ally more than 5%, you'd rather suggest him to NPC it(which takes quite an effort to do) to buy what? Another gear/relic that may get outdated when new expansion out, and unlikely to give 30% dmg boost nor determine wipe or win?

Seriously, can we just back to OP's question already and stop telling him(and other ppl intend to update atmacite) not to do it.





#31 Jul 28 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Decent
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824 posts
Quote:
Every gear is short term investment, since you never know which gear,or even relic, remain useful or not after a while. 1 year ago, if you ask which relic to build on DRK,everyone and their mother will reply Apoc. So anyone who build an apoc on that time pretty much just got trashed on parse when reso came out.


You keep missing the point. You lose 100% of the benefit of Atmacite when you stop doing Voidwatch, but your relics stay relics. Just because Ragnarok is now the superior option for DRK in some situations doesn't make your Apocalypse a giant piece of useless trash. It's still an Apocalypse, it's still best in some situations, and it still owns regardless. Other gear that isn't EX retains resale value; even if the piece plummets in value due to being outclassed by something else, you can still get something for it, the same for which cannot be said for Atmacites.

Quote:
Lol still defending for your wording I see, but fine, defend w/e, not going to change the fact that /BLM does more dmg than /RDM.


Why wouldn't I? I said precisely what I meant to say, I can't help it if you misinterpret it or just have a bad vocabulary. Besides, I never said /RDM would outdamage /BLM, and I even conceded that point upon further reflection... If you can't recognize a concession, or what the argument at hand even is, I'm not really sure why you're here in the first place.

Quote:
So this scenario only applies to COR, but doesn't apply to DRK WAR MNK SAM? >.>


Of course it applies to other jobs. This has nothing to do with jobs. It has to do with wasting a @#%^ton of cruor in an event where it's completely unnecessary. Since you are obviously so proud of your parses (which, btw, your rudimentary analysis does them no justice in an event as complex as VW... no control for with/without Atmacite? 7 NMs out of what, 73? Not taking into account the damage added through rolls? All of that proved exactly nothing, sorry.) I'll go ahead and say they were a good investment for you since you're so impressed with your numbers, but don't go assuming everyone is as eager to squander their limited resources on such a short-sighted, marginal improvement as you apparently are.

Edited, Jul 28th 2012 1:12pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#32 Jul 28 2012 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:

You keep missing the point. You lose 100% of the benefit of Atmacite when you stop doing Voidwatch, but your relics stay relics. Just because Ragnarok is now the superior option for DRK in some situations doesn't make your Apocalypse a giant piece of useless trash. It's still an Apocalypse, it's still best in some situations, and it still owns regardless. Other gear that isn't EX retains resale value; even if the piece plummets in value due to being outclassed by something else, you can still get something for it, the same for which cannot be said for Atmacites.

.


Not going to reply regarding /BLM debate.

I didn't miss the point, I know we will lose 100% of benefit when we stop doing VW, and I also know I will lose 100% of benefit once certain gear get outdated and you leave your gear in MH or toss it.

Many gears doesn't retain same resale value once it's outdated. 3 years ago SAMs grind gil out of their teeth to buy a Hagun, which costs 2.5M(farming 2.5M 3 years ago takes as long as farming 10M today btw), got a pimp GK, and now it worth like? 25~40k? So all the 2.5M they farmed pretty much just tossed in the garbage can. You still keep that Hagun, able to use it in all events, but you're also not going to bring it anywhere to an event when other easy to obtain GKT has higher output. Unless your "get something for it" is that resale value of 25k, then I have nothing to say. You sound like gear you buy/farmed stays good forever, but the fact is, they're not, unless ppl would rather use inferior gear when they outdated, never plan to replace it with newer stuff.

This applies to every gear/relic. Rag parse high atm, Amano parse high too, how do you know after 3 years SE wouldn't release another AH GK parse higher than Rag/Amano, forcing every DRK and SAM go buy that AH GK, seal their relic in MH, regret doing it like what they did to Cala? And don't start situational talk...if one DD gear doesn't have higher output than another, then it's garbage when they got the better gears. I spent a lot of gil to buy many expensive gears back in the past, such as stat rings, then when better gear released I resale or even NPC them for very little value, all the gil I spent on it pretty much just tossed to the water, just like atmacite. But I can't say I regret it, since I still get the benefit of that gear at that certain time. Same for atmacite, you lose the benefit when you stop doing VW, but since you're doing VW now, you get the benefit. And since SE won't release new expansion until next year, we still have a couple more month's of benefit we can get.

You can defend for gears/relic all you want, but you're not going to change the fact that many player who played for years, also tossed quite a large sum of gil on gear and no longer get the benefit now, nor they get the gil back. Remember the day DDs lving up farm for month or even sell their tele scrolls for a Hauby? No way any SAM would bring Hagun+Hauby to event now, yes, they're worthless even if you still keep them and used to spent months farming gil for them.

And the parse % is just there to prove that atmacite did more than 1% in entire ally, proving that saying atmacite makes only 1% difference is underestimating it. If you want to make up numbers to convince others, at least do it properly with data to support. I wasn't trying to prove how much dmg COR can do in a controlled environment(this isn't a A job v.s B job output discussion sorry), I was trying to say, in majority of the event, with all the uncontrollable factor factor in....death, proc, pt with gimp/pimp, everything. 30% of COR's output can result greater than 1% in entire ally, and certainly help your ally a lot, it's not about show off, nor precise output comparison in perfect environment, it's about whether it worth more than 1% or not in a realistic battle situation, with actual data to support. And I can safely say, majority of VW fights I've been to on this job, with parse data to support, 30% of my dmg worth more than 1% in ally, so your 1% talk is incorrect.


Honestly, if you don't want to invest in atmacite and do 30% less dmg in VW, then it's YOUR choice. But stop telling others don't when they ask for atmacite suggestion. They did not ask questions such as "Atmacite or relic, which one I should buy", they did not ask for an analyze for investment value for gear and atmacite. They ask which atmacite they should be using. And ppl even go all out suggesting ppl don't update atmacite because it makes 1% in ally, which is proved to be incorrect. And all the "atmacite won't be useful when VW dies, gear stays useful forever" talk, is clearly blind and ignoring countless gears that no longer useful, just like atmacite. You keep saying why you wouldn't upgrade atmacite, ok, we got that, your choice, but that's irrelevant to OP's Q as he clearly want to upgrade it. And there are certainly no point to make up fake numbers trying to convince others not to do it.









P.S, I think you're just ****** that Anza said not upgrade atmacite=gimp, thus trying to keep telling your justified reason not to upgrade atmacite to everyone until everyone accepts the fact that no atmacite doesn't mean gimp ._. Or else I really don't know why you keep over emphasize your reason(to a point to make up numbers) not to upgrade it when your reason is irrelevant to others.



Edited, Jul 28th 2012 6:33pm by Afania
#34 Jul 28 2012 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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824 posts
Your parse analysis still fails, and you are still missing the greater point here.

Hagun is a pretty bad example, as the price on that didn't crash overnight; if you sold it as soon as it became apparent it was no longer hot ****, you would've got a decent return on it. Nor does the price crash overnight on most gear that becomes outdated. Again, your analysis fails.

As for your P.S? I have all of three of those Atmacites at level 15, thanks. However, I have a variety of useful jobs for Voidwatch, and sometimes I forget to change my Atmacites before battle. It was then that I noticed how little those Atmacites were really contributing to the cohesion of the alliance. If I could go back? Yes, I would still level them, because I was doing Voidwatch since it launched, back when they really did make a difference. But you see, I am not blind to the metagame as you are. I can take a step back and realize that hey, these mobs get trashed in a couple minutes regardless if i'm doing 2k Wildfires or 3k Wildfires. That's why I recommend anyone coming into Voidwatch at this stage in the life of the event to not bother and save their resources for other uses. I sure as **** don't level new Atmacites when I level new jobs at this point, that's for **** sure.

As for harping on me for not answering the OP? If you had read the thread instead of just attacking me, you would have seen that his question was answered in the 2nd reply, and that I was 3rd person to point out the relative futility of upgrading at this stage. Every single thing you've posted thus far has been as extraneous to the OP's question as anything else in this thread, so I'd step off that soapbox.

You'll notice that I'm not jumping down anyone's throat for disagreeing with me concerning whether or not to upgrade their Atmacite. All I've been saying since the beginning is that it warrants a serious, individual appraisal of the cost vs the benefit of upgrading. You're the one who decided to get in my face about it, and I'm simply defending my reasoning... not that you've posed any real challenge, mind you. If anyone's mad here, it's definitely you.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#35 Aug 07 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Your parse analysis still fails, and you are still missing the greater point here.

Hagun is a pretty bad example, as the price on that didn't crash overnight; if you sold it as soon as it became apparent it was no longer hot sh*t, you would've got a decent return on it. Nor does the price crash overnight on most gear that becomes outdated. Again, your analysis fails.

As for your P.S? I have all of three of those Atmacites at level 15, thanks. However, I have a variety of useful jobs for Voidwatch, and sometimes I forget to change my Atmacites before battle. It was then that I noticed how little those Atmacites were really contributing to the cohesion of the alliance. If I could go back? Yes, I would still level them, because I was doing Voidwatch since it launched, back when they really did make a difference. But you see, I am not blind to the metagame as you are. I can take a step back and realize that hey, these mobs get trashed in a couple minutes regardless if i'm doing 2k Wildfires or 3k Wildfires. That's why I recommend anyone coming into Voidwatch at this stage in the life of the event to not bother and save their resources for other uses. I sure as **** don't level new Atmacites when I level new jobs at this point, that's for **** sure.

As for harping on me for not answering the OP? If you had read the thread instead of just attacking me, you would have seen that his question was answered in the 2nd reply, and that I was 3rd person to point out the relative futility of upgrading at this stage. Every single thing you've posted thus far has been as extraneous to the OP's question as anything else in this thread, so I'd step off that soapbox.

You'll notice that I'm not jumping down anyone's throat for disagreeing with me concerning whether or not to upgrade their Atmacite. All I've been saying since the beginning is that it warrants a serious, individual appraisal of the cost vs the benefit of upgrading. You're the one who decided to get in my face about it, and I'm simply defending my reasoning... not that you've posed any real challenge, mind you. If anyone's mad here, it's definitely you.


Yes yes, those mobs got trashed regardless I'm eating food or not, regardless I have capped skill or not, regardless I'm using right SJ or not, regardless I have all proc spells or not. It does't matter if the mob is killed 10 sec slower.

Except you did not factor that every penny you saved, it's using other 17 ppl's time/resource when entire pt kills slower. Killed NM in 2 min instead of 1 min 50 sec, small difference yes, but entire ally wasted 10 more sec every pop, after 18 pops that's nearly 1hr of time wasted if you add all the time lost together. If one person in VW ally purposely come without atmacite(already have enough cruor, but choose not to upgrade it), I'd feel he doesn't respect the pt's time.


Lolz I'm not mad, just giving out correct information regarding your "atmacite only increase 1% in ally" and "BLM is inferior SJ for VW". It's fine that you think VW won't worth a sh*t after a while, and no point in upgrading, but giving out false info everywhere to support your POV? That's a bit too much no?

Note that majority of JP pt and some NA pt also required players to have capped skill+lv 15 atmacite x3 if they want to join, and that's kind of normal.
I'm under the impression that do necessary home work before joining /shout pt can lessen the load of work from other pt member and kinda rude not to have appropriate SJ/atmacite/skill level/proc when you join /shout? As I said previously, this kind of attitude is what makes majority of PUG VW still fails/kill slow nowadays, every single good/efficient VW pt, pt member has fully upgraded atmacite, and I've yet to see a pt without atmacite that's efficient/good before. Unless it's a player already got majority of stuff from VW, not upgrading atmacite when you have enough cruor just makes other ppl have to sacrifice their time for your 3.9M cruor(which still takes time to convert to 10M gil mind you), nothing more.

Jumping down everyone's throat? Entire time you pretty much just calling others fail and nothing more, and you accusing me for being mad when I'm just giving correct info regarding the aspects you missed about the benefit of not upgrading atmacite? lolz.


P.S: About that P.S, it doesn't matter whether you already have lv 15 atmacite or not(read my previous P.S again, I never assume you don't have atmacite and worded it carefully), your "opinion" is not having atmacite doesn't matter, Anza said not having atmacite=gimp, thus making your opinion gimp and you may be ****** about it to a point that you have to keep defending for it?




Edited, Aug 7th 2012 1:08pm by Afania
#36 Aug 08 2012 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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824 posts
Quote:
Lolz I'm not mad, just giving out correct information regarding your "atmacite only increase 1% in ally" and "BLM is inferior SJ for VW".


/facepalm

Really? 10 days to come up with this? You certainly didn't prove the former, and the latter is 100% true...

Edited, Aug 8th 2012 2:57am by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#38 Oct 24 2012 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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2,869 posts
Bringing this post back from the dead to note that all of the argument in the topic is now a lot less relevant with the chocobo blinker/cruor gear NPC price nerf. Now, your cruor is good for exactly two things:

1) Brew. Not insignificant for a Wildfire COR, given that it's one of the best jobs in the game for quick brew kills of multiple Empy 90 trophy NMs. But maybe you're done with Abyssea and empy farming.

2) Atmacite. If you don't need your cruor for #1, might as well upgrade some atmacite now if you plan to do any significant amount of VW.

Re-reading these posts, I can also still say I'm happy to have had upgraded atmacites for these past many months. Better performance in an event that has made up a good chunk of my FFXI time in 2012 is a plus to me, even if Atmacite eventually become completely useless (just like some of my gear that's now relegated to permanently sitting with a Porter Moogle but was helpful in its day). While I get the argument that it's a temporary benefit only for as long as VW is a thing that people do, and that a COR with full atmacite isn't likely gonna make-or-break your run, it's still just satisfying to me to play as well as I can.

Edited, Oct 24th 2012 3:58am by Anza
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