Scholar

1,778 posts

Which is the better Wildfire piece?

So far my macro uses Navarch+2 for the Fire Shot and then swaps in Commodore for a 2nd shot or for Wildfire.

It's become really hard to notice any distinct difference between the two in terms of damage.

So far my macro uses Navarch+2 for the Fire Shot and then swaps in Commodore for a 2nd shot or for Wildfire.

It's become really hard to notice any distinct difference between the two in terms of damage.

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3,829 posts

Given how high the AGI modifier for Wildfire is, the Navarch's Bottes +2 would pull out ahead of the Commodore Bottes +2 in almost any situation. In fact, at least offhand, I believe the only time the Commodore would pull ahead is if you're using a brew, since it caps off your AGI.

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Scholar

3,917 posts

They should be pretty close. Navarch's should be slightly better in most situations except if you are rocking high AGI and low MAB.

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4,864 posts

They seem very close. I'll try to run some statistical tests with them both.

I'm working on the full Commodore Bottes +2 for the 2 hour.

I'm working on the full Commodore Bottes +2 for the 2 hour.

Scholar

256 posts

Tatham wrote:

Which is the better Wildfire piece?

So far my macro uses Navarch+2 for the Fire Shot and then swaps in Commodore for a 2nd shot or for Wildfire.

It's become really hard to notice any distinct difference between the two in terms of damage.

So far my macro uses Navarch+2 for the Fire Shot and then swaps in Commodore for a 2nd shot or for Wildfire.

It's become really hard to notice any distinct difference between the two in terms of damage.

Navarch +2 is better, relic+2 is for brew/QD 2nd shot only.(Or QD when you're doing Last Stand)

Sage

1,434 posts

I mathed this out for LS mate a bit ago, but I can't find my notes about it... well anyways, with his gear on neutral int (your int = mob int), no mdb having mob navarch pulled ahead by ~10 dmg if he's /rdm and commodore pulled ahead by ~10 dmg if he's /sam. So the difference is negliable.

You can math it out yourself using this http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage formula.

You can math it out yourself using this http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage formula.

Scholar

256 posts

Sharain wrote:

I mathed this out for LS mate a bit ago, but I can't find my notes about it... well anyways, with his gear on neutral int (your int = mob int), no mdb having mob navarch pulled ahead by ~10 dmg if he's /rdm and commodore pulled ahead by ~10 dmg if he's /sam. So the difference is negliable.

You can math it out yourself using this http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage formula.

You can math it out yourself using this http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage formula.

I tested both long time ago on some EP mobs and relic+2 feet doesn't beat AF3+2 feet /SAM(no MAB buff either). I'm planning to do it again sometime on too weak mob to be 100% sure though.

Scholar

3,917 posts

The fact that there is this argument goes a long way to point out that the two are side-grades for all intents and purposes. Only the most obsessive is going to notice one is overwhelmingly better than the other.

But you min-maxers fight it out for supremacy. It's like arguing whether a Whopper is better than a Big Mac.

But you min-maxers fight it out for supremacy. It's like arguing whether a Whopper is better than a Big Mac.

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Sage

1,434 posts

Afania wrote:

Sharain wrote:

You can math it out yourself using this http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage formula.

I tested both long time ago on some EP mobs and relic+2 feet doesn't beat AF3+2 feet /SAM(no MAB buff either). I'm planning to do it again sometime on too weak mob to be 100% sure though.

It does depend on your gear you know. That you got different results doesn't invalidate the math. Your gear just happened to be so that AF3+2 boots were better.

Scholar

256 posts

Sharain wrote:

Afania wrote:

Sharain wrote:

You can math it out yourself using this http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage formula.

I tested both long time ago on some EP mobs and relic+2 feet doesn't beat AF3+2 feet /SAM(no MAB buff either). I'm planning to do it again sometime on too weak mob to be 100% sure though.

It does depend on your gear you know. That you got different results doesn't invalidate the math. Your gear just happened to be so that AF3+2 boots were better.

I thought it's established and widely recognized rule that 2 AGI>1 MAB, thus 13 AGI always > 6 MAB?

How about you post the gear set of your friend and I go test? Because I don't believe this 2 AGI> 1 MAB been using by everyone for so long is in fact incorrect.

If this rule is really in fact, incorrect, it'd be new to me.

Which gear set will make relic+2 feet > AF3+2 feet exactly?

Scholar

3,917 posts

Afania wrote:

Sharain wrote:

Afania wrote:

Sharain wrote:

You can math it out yourself using this http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage formula.

I tested both long time ago on some EP mobs and relic+2 feet doesn't beat AF3+2 feet /SAM(no MAB buff either). I'm planning to do it again sometime on too weak mob to be 100% sure though.

It does depend on your gear you know. That you got different results doesn't invalidate the math. Your gear just happened to be so that AF3+2 boots were better.

I thought it's established and widely recognized rule that 2 AGI>1 MAB, thus 13 AGI always > 6 MAB?

How about you post the gear set of your friend and I go test? Because I don't believe this 2 AGI> 1 MAB been using by everyone for so long is in fact incorrect.

If this rule is really in fact, incorrect, it'd be new to me.

Which gear set will make relic+2 feet > AF3+2 feet exactly?

Doesn't it depend on the mob? Since there is an fINT component (player AGI vs. Mob INT in WF case) to the WS damage equation, the higher the mob INT the more valued AGI is. Against level 1 mobs where the fINT is maxed, MAB will always make a bigger impact. This is why STR was always valued for physical WS against tougher mobs as fSTR wasn't capped in those situations.

So I suspect a gearset that makes AF2+2 better would be one that includes loads of AGI already, no MAB against lower tiered mobs. Whereas AF3+2 would win on anything that's tougher. But I am willing to be proven wrong as I've never been a math wizard and these equations always make my head spin.

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Sage

1,434 posts

The thing is, they're multiplied, so while 2 AGI > 1 MAB holds in "average case", it doesn't always.

From http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage :

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * resist * elemental staves * weather * MDIF * magic damage adjustment.

We can ignore resist, elemental staves, weather and magic damage adjustment, because they affect both cases the same way. So it boils down to

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * MDIF

Assume fINT is the minimum, so 8. Wildfire's ftp is 5.5. Modifier is 60% AGI. Assume your level is 99.

Damage = ((101 + WSC)*5.5 + 8) * MDIF

To illustrate the point, lets say you have zero extra mab ( MDIF = 1) and 200 agi. Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1223.5.

Add 13 agi. Dmg = ((101+213*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1266.4

Instead add 6 MAB (so MDIF = 1.06). Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.06 = 1296.91.

That's a hypothethical case, LS mate isn't on and I don't know his gearset, he just gave me the agi and mab numbers, which I've completely forgotten.

Edit add: So yeah, it's pretty much the case that poster above explained that makes relic boots +2 better.

*Edited, Mar 7th 2012 8:21am by Sharain *

From http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage :

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * resist * elemental staves * weather * MDIF * magic damage adjustment.

We can ignore resist, elemental staves, weather and magic damage adjustment, because they affect both cases the same way. So it boils down to

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * MDIF

Assume fINT is the minimum, so 8. Wildfire's ftp is 5.5. Modifier is 60% AGI. Assume your level is 99.

Damage = ((101 + WSC)*5.5 + 8) * MDIF

To illustrate the point, lets say you have zero extra mab ( MDIF = 1) and 200 agi. Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1223.5.

Add 13 agi. Dmg = ((101+213*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1266.4

Instead add 6 MAB (so MDIF = 1.06). Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.06 = 1296.91.

That's a hypothethical case, LS mate isn't on and I don't know his gearset, he just gave me the agi and mab numbers, which I've completely forgotten.

Edit add: So yeah, it's pretty much the case that poster above explained that makes relic boots +2 better.

4,864 posts

Sharain wrote:

The thing is, they're multiplied, so while 2 AGI > 1 MAB holds in "average case", it doesn't always.

From http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage :

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * resist * elemental staves * weather * MDIF * magic damage adjustment.

We can ignore resist, elemental staves, weather and magic damage adjustment, because they affect both cases the same way. So it boils down to

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * MDIF

Assume fINT is the minimum, so 8. Wildfire's ftp is 5.5. Modifier is 60% AGI. Assume your level is 99.

Damage = ((101 + WSC)*5.5 + 8) * MDIF

To illustrate the point, lets say you have zero extra mab ( MDIF = 1) and 200 agi. Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1223.5.

Add 13 agi. Dmg = ((101+213*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1266.4

Instead add 6 MAB (so MDIF = 1.06). Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.06 = 1296.91.

That's a hypothethical case, LS mate isn't on and I don't know his gearset, he just gave me the agi and mab numbers, which I've completely forgotten.

Edit add: So yeah, it's pretty much the case that poster above explained that makes relic boots +2 better.

*Edited, Mar 7th 2012 8:21am by Sharain *

From http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage :

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * resist * elemental staves * weather * MDIF * magic damage adjustment.

We can ignore resist, elemental staves, weather and magic damage adjustment, because they affect both cases the same way. So it boils down to

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * MDIF

Assume fINT is the minimum, so 8. Wildfire's ftp is 5.5. Modifier is 60% AGI. Assume your level is 99.

Damage = ((101 + WSC)*5.5 + 8) * MDIF

To illustrate the point, lets say you have zero extra mab ( MDIF = 1) and 200 agi. Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1223.5.

Add 13 agi. Dmg = ((101+213*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1266.4

Instead add 6 MAB (so MDIF = 1.06). Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.06 = 1296.91.

That's a hypothethical case, LS mate isn't on and I don't know his gearset, he just gave me the agi and mab numbers, which I've completely forgotten.

Edit add: So yeah, it's pretty much the case that poster above explained that makes relic boots +2 better.

That's a very good explanation.

My personal math works out to be (guesstimating a little because I am not sure of exact base AGI stats for 99 Elvaan COR):

((101+ 133*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.32 = 1323.16 (So my difference of 80 extra AGI in your original example is surpassed by just 32 MAB, 8 less than the 2:1 formula.

If for example I used Navarch's Legs +2 instead of my Denali legs, the math would be:

((101 + 138*0.6)*5.5 + 8) *1.29 = 1314.38

If instead I had one extra AGI on those legs to hypothesize a perfect 2 AGI > 1 MAB scenario of Nvrch. Legs +2 vs. Denali, the math would be:

((101 + 139*0.6)*5.5 + 8) *1.29 = 1318.63.

Adding one AGI =

(1) (101 +1*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1 = 572.468, representing a ~9 point damage increase if the AGI = 0.

Adding 10 AGI =

(2) (101 +10*.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1 = 596.5, representing a 33 point damage increase over a zero AGI build.

Adding 100 AGI =

(3) 893.5, representing a 330 point damage increase (linear/10).

Adding one MAB =

(4) ((101) *5.5 + 8)*1.01 = 569.134 (5.5 damage increase over MAB=0)

Adding 10 MAB=

(5) ((101) *5.5+8)*1.10 = 619.85

Adding 20 AGI (2:1)=

(6) ((101 +20*.6)*5.5+8)*1 = 621.5

Adding 50 MAB=

(7) ((101)*.5.5 +8)*1.5 = 845.25

Comparing 6 to 5, and 7 to 3, we see that without the other stat, this is a sliding scale. However, realistic gear stat choices such as using Commodore Bottes +2 instead of Nvrch. Feet +2 (6 more MAB with loss of 13 AGI) provide:

Navarch +2: ((101+ 133*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.32 = 1323.16

Commodore Bottes+2: ((101 +120*.06)*5.5 +8) * 1.38 = 1324.11

Conclusion: Side Grade. My future ballpark yay/nay decisions will depend more on a 2.5/3 decision for AGI over MAB, or 60-75% MAB over AGI given a single point of difference in damage.

Scholar

256 posts

Sharain wrote:

From http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage :

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * resist * elemental staves * weather * MDIF * magic damage adjustment.

We can ignore resist, elemental staves, weather and magic damage adjustment, because they affect both cases the same way. So it boils down to

Damage = ((lv + 2 + WSC)*fTP + fINT) * MDIF

Assume fINT is the minimum, so 8. Wildfire's ftp is 5.5. Modifier is 60% AGI. Assume your level is 99.

Damage = ((101 + WSC)*5.5 + 8) * MDIF

To illustrate the point, lets say you have zero extra mab ( MDIF = 1) and 200 agi. Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1223.5.

Add 13 agi. Dmg = ((101+213*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.0 = 1266.4

Instead add 6 MAB (so MDIF = 1.06). Dmg = ((101+200*0.6)*5.5 + 8) * 1.06 = 1296.91.

That's a hypothethical case, LS mate isn't on and I don't know his gearset, he just gave me the agi and mab numbers, which I've completely forgotten.

Edit add: So yeah, it's pretty much the case that poster above explained that makes relic boots +2 better.

I tested a bit on lv1 rabbits, then firesday came up so I had to stop(will continue when firesday over), but yes, after removing all the MAB gear I have, relic+2 does beat AF3+2 feet. But number isn't quite the same as math formula though.

Total AGI=101+95, no vulcan's staff(since it affects both anyways) MAB=0 besides AF2+2 feet, removed all the MAB in gear and /SAM

AF3+2: 1544

AF2+2: 1568

I had different result a while ago when I tested on EP(AF3+2 feet won with /SAM), so I'm not sure if target mob actually would make a big difference though, gonna keep testing on different target to see the difference.

Sage

2,869 posts

While it's pretty close for Wildfire, the more significant difference is that Commodore +2 should be better for QD from a pure damage standpoint; i.e. you aren't going to benefit from the Nav+2 elemental resist down effect.

Particularly meaningful for a non-Wildfire COR. For me, COR has dropped to my 5th or 6th priority job so I'm not building an empy for it.

Particularly meaningful for a non-Wildfire COR. For me, COR has dropped to my 5th or 6th priority job so I'm not building an empy for it.

Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???

Sage

2,869 posts

Zelduh wrote:

wat? If you use iceshot, then your next iceshot will do more damage :P

If you're firing back to back. Second QD will not get any benefit, and you might not be firing a second one immediately.

Plus, it's never bad to have alternatives. Neither Nav+2 nor Commodore+2 are a bad WF or QD piece, and it gives some flexibility to people to get one of the options. Both of them are pretty high end pieces for WF or QD.

Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???

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