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Joyeuse/M.Kris doubting - blasphemy?Follow

#1 Apr 30 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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For situations in Abyssea where a non-Wildfire COR is meleeing for TP, supposing no Twilight Knife, are Joyeuse/M.Kris REALLY still worth using over dual-wielding two strong daggers? Blasphemy, I know, but hear me out (and please correct me with some actual numbers if I'm mistaken to be questioning the old multi-hit philosophy).

As I mentioned in my other post re: Rolls for Abyssea exp alliance, in Abyssea we really can get some strong melee strikes and crits from Atma-enhanced TPing. It's not really the same common wisdom as the old school "just get me to 100tp fast so I can use Slug/Det". You can do some substantial damage during your meleeing for TP. I'm getting over 55% crit rate before any buffs with some pretty beefy daggers (I have a DMG:43 and DMG:42 augmented Yataghan, with crit dmg+3% on the 43), and I have 8/8 dagger merits. Is it really better to offhand Joyeuse?

Ideally I'd love to use Twilight Knife alongside my best Yataghan, but until I get that... is Joyeuse really still the best choice?

If any more math-oriented people have any numbers to back this stuff up I'd certainly appreciate that too.

Edited, Apr 30th 2011 11:07pm by Anza
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#2 May 01 2011 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Multi hut weapons will out do due larger but slower damage of traditional daggers.
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#3 May 01 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:
For situations in Abyssea where a non-Wildfire COR is meleeing for TP, supposing no Twilight Knife, are Joyeuse/M.Kris REALLY still worth using over dual-wielding two strong daggers? Blasphemy, I know, but hear me out (and please correct me with some actual numbers if I'm mistaken to be questioning the old multi-hit philosophy).

As I mentioned in my other post re: Rolls for Abyssea exp alliance, in Abyssea we really can get some strong melee strikes and crits from Atma-enhanced TPing. It's not really the same common wisdom as the old school "just get me to 100tp fast so I can use Slug/Det". You can do some substantial damage during your meleeing for TP. I'm getting over 55% crit rate before any buffs with some pretty beefy daggers (I have a DMG:43 and DMG:42 augmented Yataghan, with crit dmg+3% on the 43), and I have 8/8 dagger merits. Is it really better to offhand Joyeuse?

Ideally I'd love to use Twilight Knife alongside my best Yataghan, but until I get that... is Joyeuse really still the best choice?

If any more math-oriented people have any numbers to back this stuff up I'd certainly appreciate that too.

Edited, Apr 30th 2011 11:07pm by Anza


What's your TP set and atma looks like? Do you use atma of Alpha and Omega? Cuz the more Double attack/triple attack you have, the more advantage your dagger will have when comparing against Joytoy.

Edited, May 1st 2011 7:18pm by Afania
#4 May 01 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
Multi hut weapons will out do due larger but slower damage of traditional daggers.


Even M.Kris? Joyeuse I can see since it still has pretty solid dmg/delay so you're getting something out of melee. But is M.Kris still relevant? It's pretty pathetic on melee damage so it's really only helping you to get more WS. And getting to WS as soon as possible isn't quite as useful these days as it is in an optimized 75 meripo setup - sometimes you won't want to WS right away (e.g. alliances where people QQ about Ruby, or when you just don't want to waste TP on a weak mob so you can save it for a new one and not lose damage by overkilling).

Afania wrote:
What's your TP set and atma looks like? Do you use atma of Alpha and Omega? Cuz the more Double attack/triple attack you have, the more advantage your dagger will have when comparing against Joytoy.


TP set is:

Walahra Turban
Agasaya's Collar
Brutal/Suppa, also have Moonshade with Acc+4/Regain latent
Aurore Doublet (soon to have Loki's as well)
Aurore Gloves
Heed Ring (shooting for Epona's one day)
Rajas Ring
Atheling Mantle
Twilight Belt
Aurore Brais
Aurore Gaiters

So with Brutal, Aurore Body, Atheling, and Twilight = DA+12% from gear.

I tend to use RR/GH/Apoc for melee DD atma, but I could go RR/VV/Apoc and get the regain/DA+5% instead of GH's extra 20% crit rate.
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#5 May 01 2011 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Alobont wrote:
Multi hut weapons will out do due larger but slower damage of traditional daggers.


Even M.Kris? Joyeuse I can see since it still has pretty solid dmg/delay so you're getting something out of melee. But is M.Kris still relevant? It's pretty pathetic on melee damage so it's really only helping you to get more WS. And getting to WS as soon as possible isn't quite as useful these days as it is in an optimized 75 meripo setup - sometimes you won't want to WS right away (e.g. alliances where people QQ about Ruby, or when you just don't want to waste TP on a weak mob so you can save it for a new one and not lose damage by overkilling).

Afania wrote:
What's your TP set and atma looks like? Do you use atma of Alpha and Omega? Cuz the more Double attack/triple attack you have, the more advantage your dagger will have when comparing against Joytoy.


TP set is:

Walahra Turban
Agasaya's Collar
Brutal/Suppa, also have Moonshade with Acc+4/Regain latent
Aurore Doublet (soon to have Loki's as well)
Aurore Gloves
Heed Ring (shooting for Epona's one day)
Rajas Ring
Atheling Mantle
Twilight Belt
Aurore Brais
Aurore Gaiters

So with Brutal, Aurore Body, Atheling, and Twilight = DA+12% from gear.

I tend to use RR/GH/Apoc for melee DD atma, but I could go RR/VV/Apoc and get the regain/DA+5% instead of GH's extra 20% crit rate.


Atmas and medicines make the low damage a moot point.
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#6 May 02 2011 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Well, COR forum luck came through again... Got Twilight Knife tonight. Thank you gambler's spirit. Last week I was asking about a QD earring placeholder until Hecate's, and got Navarch's the same night. Now this.

So, for me personally, now I guess I need to ask - Twilight/Joyeuse, or Yataghan (D:42)/Twilight?
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#7 May 02 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So, for me personally, now I guess I need to ask - Twilight/Joyeuse, or Yataghan (D:42)/Twilight?


Struggling with this question myself ( not that I have a reason to melee on COR again until the next level cap and merit cap raise).
My gut says the Twilight/Joy combo will still win but its difficult math to work out since how much DA% in gear and atma you have skews the equation to favor the Yhatagan.
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#8 May 02 2011 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
So, for me personally, now I guess I need to ask - Twilight/Joyeuse, or Yataghan (D:42)/Twilight?


Struggling with this question myself ( not that I have a reason to melee on COR again until the next level cap and merit cap raise).
My gut says the Twilight/Joy combo will still win but its difficult math to work out since how much DA% in gear and atma you have skews the equation to favor the Yhatagan.



Isn't Yhatagan/Twilight able to produce highest Evi dmg? Quadruple attack proc on both hand and WS, and Yhatagan is probably the best WS dagger atm with right augment, both of them are hard to give up. Joytoy don't really offer a lot in Abyssea with all the DA TA atmas.
#9 May 03 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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Except for Quadruple attack can't proc on DW evisceration due to maximum 8 swings.
#10 May 03 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Joytoy don't really offer a lot in Abyssea with all the DA TA atmas.


Can we get to 50% DA with atma and gear and Fighters?
IF not then Twilight/Joy still could outdo Twilight/Yhataghan. But if you are getting in the 35-40% range then the crit damage advantage of Yhat might start to balance out.

I'm not meleeing much on COR these days other than for giggles, but maybe I'll give it a real try on some trash Visions mobs to test it out. I assume RR/VV/Apoc would be the atmas to try it out with.
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#11 May 03 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
Except for Quadruple attack can't proc on DW evisceration due to maximum 8 swings.


Not exactly sure how this works
Does Quadruple attack has a chance to proc on 1st~4th swing of Evi?



Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Joytoy don't really offer a lot in Abyssea with all the DA TA atmas.


Can we get to 50% DA with atma and gear and Fighters?
IF not then Twilight/Joy still could outdo Twilight/Yhataghan. But if you are getting in the 35-40% range then the crit damage advantage of Yhat might start to balance out.

I'm not meleeing much on COR these days other than for giggles, but maybe I'll give it a real try on some trash Visions mobs to test it out. I assume RR/VV/Apoc would be the atmas to try it out with.



Personally I used RR/VV/Alpha and Omega, I tested both yesterday, Omega atma deals way higher WS dmg than Apoc, although Apoc has auto-RR and 5% more triple attack.

Eponas: DA3% TA3%
Brutal:DA5%
Atheling:DA3%
Twilight belt:DA2%
Aurore:DA2%(Although I don't TP in Aurore, not sure if this body piece is better than other ones)

VV atma: DA5%
Apoc or Omega atma: TA15% or TA10%

Fighters roll: Highest DA24%, average probably about DA5~10%

Highest possible DA a COR can get is 44%, plus 18% TA and 3% QA.
Average is probably 25%~30% DA, 13%~18% TA and 3% QA

#12 May 03 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Evisceration is a 5 hit WS, dual wielding it is 6, so if you are dual wielding, Quadruple attack can't proc because there is a limit of 8 swings per attack round or WS.
#13 May 04 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
Evisceration is a 5 hit WS, dual wielding it is 6, so if you are dual wielding, Quadruple attack can't proc because there is a limit of 8 swings per attack round or WS.




What I was asking is does having Quadruple attack offhand increase the chance of hitting 8 times and reaching max hit per WS(You don't always hit 8 times everytime you WS no)? If it's possible to proc on first or second hit?
#14 May 05 2011 at 12:15 AM Rating: Good
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its not a question of whether it helps you get 8 hits. There is a hard cap on the number of swings that you can do on a WS and an attack round. Because of that, if you are dual wielding, quadruple attack can't even proc. So, no, it doesn't increase the chance of you getting an 8 hit Evisceration.
#15 May 14 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Are you sure quad can't proc on eviceration and just only give 2 extra hits instead of 3? I think it is likely it does proc and the max number of hits per round cap is applied second.
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#16 May 15 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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I guess it is possible, you could try to do a bunch of Eviscerations with no DA or TA gear on, and if you ever get an 8 hit, then you are right. But, as of now, it would just be speculation.
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