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#1 Nov 08 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
Hello~
Does anyone know what the "Set: Augments Quick Draw" on the +2 pieces actually do?
So far we've learned about the lol "Enhances QD" on feet, but what about this other bonus?
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#2 Nov 08 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm having trouble just getting seals for the +1 pieces. I've completed +1 legs and head on RNG and RDM far quicker than anything on COR. The head and leg seal quests are idiotic. The feet seal quest takes forever. The NM's I've done that drop COR seals typically drop BST and PUP for me.

So I haven't even thought about +2. Since we haven't even had the body and hand pieces released yet, I'd assume the set bonus properties will have to wait awhile.
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#3 Nov 08 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Set bonuses on +2 work like campaign sets. Need two pieces to get the bonus and each piece after increases the effect.
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#4 Nov 08 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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My only fear is the set effect (like most sets) won't be an increase over a patchwork set of best pieces per slot. But I guess we will have to wait and see. I personally haven't seen any COR on Siren with +2 armour let alone 2-3 pieces

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#5 Nov 10 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Ive seen many +2 cors running around. I think the first to have it all was the JP taru with the Death Penalty though.
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#6 Nov 11 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
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Considering how incredibly, stupidly powerful BRD's set effect is, this better be great. Like actually inflicting the status effects the quick draw enhances, with quickdraw itself. Or making quickdraw inflict chainbound as if it was a ws of that element. If BRD's set makes carol II's 100% magic negation, quick draw better bring down satellites.
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#7 Nov 11 2010 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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The head and leg seal quests are idiotic.
So true -.-

and lol louis! XD
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#8 Nov 11 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
So far we've learned about the lol "Enhances QD" on feet, but what about this other bonus?


I'm a bit confused as to why you think its "lol."

The bonus on the feet is excellent.

Quote:

My only fear is the set effect (like most sets) won't be an increase over a patchwork set of best pieces per slot. But I guess we will have to wait and see. I personally haven't seen any COR on Siren with +2 armour let alone 2-3 pieces


All of the AF3+2 set bonuses increase for each piece you have equipped after the first (like Campaign sets). You don't need the whole set equipped for the bonus.

Quote:
Considering how incredibly, stupidly powerful BRD's set effect is, this better be great. Like actually inflicting the status effects the quick draw enhances, with quickdraw itself. Or making quickdraw inflict chainbound as if it was a ws of that element. If BRD's set makes carol II's 100% magic negation, quick draw better bring down satellites.


The strength of the BRD set is almost certainly unintentional, since none of the others are anywhere near that powerful.
#9 Nov 11 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
Gettin a little bonus from the second shot only when you fire 2 times in a row isn't that great. It would only apply at the start of the battle basically, I don't wait for both charges before firing a QD again. Even for QD kite solo is useless.
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#10 Nov 11 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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Except its not just to QD, it gives a 10% damage bonus to all elemental damage on the mob of that type for 15 seconds.

Also, I believe with 3 CORs you can keep it up 100% of the time if its timed correctly.

#11 Nov 11 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Except its not just to QD, it gives a 10% damage bonus to all elemental damage on the mob of that type for 15 seconds.
That is more interesting if you can tag with a blm then. Still, it's nothing THAT special though.

And lol, I'm often the only cor even in a whole alliance(and I've barely seen other cors use QD at all <_< those **** bardlike wannabe!), though it would be cool to spam a QD that keeps multiplying XD
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#12 Nov 11 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
That is more interesting if you can tag with a blm then. Still, it's nothing THAT special though.

And lol, I'm often the only cor even in a whole alliance(and I've barely seen other cors use QD at all <_< those **** bardlike wannabe!), though it would be cool to spam a QD that keeps multiplying XD


Nothing special until you look at Wildfire.

Also, obviously you're not gonna do a pickup ally on anything this QD rotation would be useful. Be for NMs and stuff.
#13 Nov 12 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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The strength of the BRD set is almost certainly unintentional, since none of the others are anywhere near that powerful.


THF's sounds great. 10% chance at triple damage on triple attack hits, and 20% with all 3 pieces. Especially if the next 2 pieces increase it the same amount, and you merit assassin's charge down, that'd be incredible. Haven't seen much on any of the other sets though. Still want to know what the pet hp dependent ones do, both in power, who they buff, and which end of the hp bar we're shooting for.
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#14 Nov 12 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
THF's sounds great. 10% chance at triple damage on triple attack hits, and 20% with all 3 pieces. Especially if the next 2 pieces increase it the same amount, and you merit assassin's charge down, that'd be incredible. Haven't seen much on any of the other sets though. Still want to know what the pet hp dependent ones do, both in power, who they buff, and which end of the hp bar we're shooting for.


The THF one is good, but again its not nearly as powerful as BRDs.

Afaik none of the "Varies with HP" have any info on them at all (DRK, BST, PUP, SMN).
#15 Nov 16 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ive seen many +2 cors running around. I think the first to have it all was the JP taru with the Death Penalty though.


I guess you've been hanging out with the "cool kids". I've not seen a COR with +1 anything but feet yet. I think most people with COR are working on other jobs. There aren't that many dedicated COR's on my server, I think. TBH, I've only seen one person with Death Penalty.

I still need the feet piece and I've got 5/8 feet seals and 0/8 head and legs. This is going to be a long haul.
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#16 Nov 16 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Ive seen many +2 cors running around. I think the first to have it all was the JP taru with the Death Penalty though.


I guess you've been hanging out with the "cool kids". I've not seen a COR with +1 anything but feet yet. I think most people with COR are working on other jobs. There aren't that many dedicated COR's on my server, I think. TBH, I've only seen one person with Death Penalty.

I still need the feet piece and I've got 5/8 feet seals and 0/8 head and legs. This is going to be a long haul.


If the cool kids hang out in WG, then yeah. Most Cors on my server have 2/3, few have +2. I only need the head seals, to finish all my +1s. I could of had +2 by now but im targeting other gear atm, high to you armageddon, bullwhip, acc+25 body.
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#17 Nov 17 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Most Cors on my server have 2/3


Most COR's on my server run around in Blue Cothardie, Light Staves, Crimson gear and AF2 hat. None of the new gear enhances their /WHM-ness so they aren't bothering too hard.
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#18 Nov 17 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Most Cors on my server have 2/3


Most COR's on my server run around in Blue Cothardie, Light Staves, Crimson gear and AF2 hat. None of the new gear enhances their /WHM-ness so they aren't bothering too hard.


Most of mine do the same, but it seems they have acquired their af due to it going rot drop.
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#19 Nov 17 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Most Cors on my server have 2/3


Most COR's on my server run around in Blue Cothardie, Light Staves, Crimson gear and AF2 hat. None of the new gear enhances their /WHM-ness so they aren't bothering too hard.



AF3+1/+2 enhances new rolls, so even if you /WHM and only do roll it's still useful to have.
#20 Nov 18 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

AF3+1/+2 enhances new rolls, so even if you /WHM and only do roll it's still useful to have


Most assuredly they are except the new rolls are pretty low in their awesomeness. I'm rarely in a ranged only party or party or one handers. When I'm buffing DD its still usually Chaos Fighters or Chaos SAM.

Interestingly Bolters Roll is the only new roll that gets a ton of use lol.
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#21 Nov 18 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Bolters sees the most use, I use Blitzer a lot as well, but I dont even have the ranged one.
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#22 Nov 18 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't see a situation where I can really use Blitzer's roll, seeing how it totally just f*cks up X-hit builds. Wish they would have given us straight up haste... >_>
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#23 Nov 18 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Most Cors on my server have 2/3


Most COR's on my server run around in Blue Cothardie, Light Staves, Crimson gear and AF2 hat. None of the new gear enhances their /WHM-ness so they aren't bothering too hard.


Most of mine do the same, but it seems they have acquired their af due to it going rot drop.


Nah you're missing the key equipment - they all still rock a trump gun.
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#24 Nov 18 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Dreakon wrote:
I can't see a situation where I can really use Blitzer's roll, seeing how it totally just f*cks up X-hit builds. Wish they would have given us straight up haste... >_>


I do a lot of things with my DNC buddy and people with 1 hand weapons, so it doesnt matter as much as it does with 2 hand.
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#25 Nov 18 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Default
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Dreakon wrote:
I can't see a situation where I can really use Blitzer's roll, seeing how it totally just f*cks up X-hit builds. Wish they would have given us straight up haste... >_>




RR atma+ 1h weapon or h2h weapon=pwn (Although real haste still better)


For 2h DDs, if they're using VV atma, it's possible that they'll still maintain their x-hit because of regain.


With the power of RR and VV atma, it's possible that Blitzers now one of the best DD buff COR can give.

Edited, Nov 18th 2010 10:46pm by Afania
#26 Nov 19 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:


RR atma+ 1h weapon or h2h weapon=pwn (Although real haste still better)


For 2h DDs, if they're using VV atma, it's possible that they'll still maintain their x-hit because of regain.


With the power of RR and VV atma, it's possible that Blitzers now one of the best DD buff COR can give.


Fighter's and Chaos are the only 2 DD rolls worth using 99.9% of the time.

If you have 2 CORs, I could maybe see Blitzer's being used if you do like..Fighters/Chaos/SAM/Blitzer's.

RR is best used in conjunction with Crit WS's (not with H2H or DW weapons...) and pretty much nothing in the game is worth losing an x-hit build over.
#27 Nov 20 2010 at 4:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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from a DD perspective, blitzer's is going to destroy fighters in over all damage for anyone that's not using an x-hit build. For 1h/h2h jobs, lowering delay gives more than reducing tp/hit takes. Also worth considering is, as pointed out at the time, blitzers being haste would have been redundant, as JA haste caps at 25%, and between Hasso/Haste Samba, it wouldn't have been much in the way of a buff; where as straight -delay works alongside haste, meaning that, for example, unlike every other haste buff in the game, cor can actually make a hundred fisting monk hundred fists faster. If you're in a party of primarily 1h/h2h, Chaos/Blitzers is going to beat Chaos/Fighters every time.

Also, it may be worth looking at rogue's roll again, given the retarded amount of +crit damage available now. I base this on the fact that it's been decided that claymore grip (crit hit rate +3%) trumps pole grip (Double attack +2%) for 2h weapons with much +crit damage. Depending on peoples' atma selection, giving someone more crit hit rate on top of a massive chunk of crit hit damage may be more beneficial than one of the other rolls. Say someone has capped +crit damage (+50%), and are using DW or h2h, I'd think it fairly likely that blitzer's/rogue's is going to blow anything else out of the water.
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#28 Nov 20 2010 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
Lady Jinte wrote:
from a DD perspective, blitzer's is going to destroy fighters in over all damage for anyone that's not using an x-hit build. For 1h/h2h jobs, lowering delay gives more than reducing tp/hit takes. Also worth considering is, as pointed out at the time, blitzers being haste would have been redundant, as JA haste caps at 25%, and between Hasso/Haste Samba, it wouldn't have been much in the way of a buff; where as straight -delay works alongside haste, meaning that, for example, unlike every other haste buff in the game, cor can actually make a hundred fisting monk hundred fists faster. If you're in a party of primarily 1h/h2h, Chaos/Blitzers is going to beat Chaos/Fighters every time.

Also, it may be worth looking at rogue's roll again, given the retarded amount of +crit damage available now. I base this on the fact that it's been decided that claymore grip (crit hit rate +3%) trumps pole grip (Double attack +2%) for 2h weapons with much +crit damage. Depending on peoples' atma selection, giving someone more crit hit rate on top of a massive chunk of crit hit damage may be more beneficial than one of the other rolls. Say someone has capped +crit damage (+50%), and are using DW or h2h, I'd think it fairly likely that blitzer's/rogue's is going to blow anything else out of the water.

I quote just cause I can't rate up twice. Agree with every word.
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#29 Nov 20 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
from a DD perspective, blitzer's is going to destroy fighters in over all damage for anyone that's not using an x-hit build. For 1h/h2h jobs, lowering delay gives more than reducing tp/hit takes.


This is not entirely false, but it does not give more then Fighters. The penalty that goes along with Blitzer's is too substantial.


Quote:
Also worth considering is, as pointed out at the time, blitzers being haste would have been redundant, as JA haste caps at 25%, and between Hasso/Haste Samba, it wouldn't have been much in the way of a buff; where as straight -delay works alongside haste, meaning that, for example, unlike every other haste buff in the game, cor can actually make a hundred fisting monk hundred fists faster. If you're in a party of primarily 1h/h2h, Chaos/Blitzers is going to beat Chaos/Fighters every time.


No, its not. DW jobs benefit far more from STP then you seem to understand.

Quote:
Also, it may be worth looking at rogue's roll again, given the retarded amount of +crit damage available now. I base this on the fact that it's been decided that claymore grip (crit hit rate +3%) trumps pole grip (Double attack +2%) for 2h weapons with much +crit damage. Depending on peoples' atma selection, giving someone more crit hit rate on top of a massive chunk of crit hit damage may be more beneficial than one of the other rolls. Say someone has capped +crit damage (+50%), and are using DW or h2h, I'd think it fairly likely that blitzer's/rogue's is going to blow anything else out of the water.


Claymore Grip is only beneficial if you are using both RR and a Crit WS, and (I believe) capping Crit damage+ (I could be wrong on that last part). Rogue's Roll actually falls even farther behind as you continue to stack crit rate (diminishing returns etc.) and is now even worse then before. What you "think" about Blitzer's/Rogue's is, quite frankly, wrong.

Chaos/Fighter's is, once again, superior about 99% of the time.
#30 Nov 21 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:
from a DD perspective, blitzer's is going to destroy fighters in over all damage for anyone that's not using an x-hit build. For 1h/h2h jobs, lowering delay gives more than reducing tp/hit takes.


This is not entirely false, but it does not give more then Fighters. The penalty that goes along with Blitzer's is too substantial.


Ok, let's look at the math then.

I'll do some basic stuff to explain to you why you're wrong. Using high delay and low delay dw and h2h, generic weapons, and normal levels of DW:

Nin: (Dual Wield: Low Delay)
Dual Wield V: Delay -30%
Weapon: Katanas; Assuming average nin selection, I'll use 2 Sekka +1 (Total Base delay before DW: 402)
Enhances DW x2: Delay -40%: Total Delay: 241
TP/hit: 241/2 = 120.5
5.0 + [(120.5 - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
5.0 + [-59.5 * 1.5 / 180]
5.0 + [-89.25 / 180]
5.0 - .4
TP/hit = 4.6 (Remembering that TP truncates to the 10ths place)

Now assume an 11 on Blitzers; -12.1% delay
Delay -52.1%: Total Delay: 192
TP/hit = 4.3

The difference for a ninja between no blitzers and 11 blitzers, while shaving off 49 delay (Nearly 1 second/attack round), is only .3 TP/hit.

Blu: (Dual Wield: High Delay)
Dual Wield II: Delay -15%
Weapon: Swords; using 2x Shamshir +1 (Total Base Delay before DW: 460)
Enhances DW x1: Delay -20%: Total Delay: 368
TP/hit: 368/2 = 184
5.0 + [(184 - 180) * 6.5 / 270] (I'll assume this math is straight forward enough that I don't need to show each step repeatedly...)
TP/hit = 5.0

11 Blitzers: Delay -32.1%: Total Delay: 312
TP/hit: 4.8

Difference between no blitzers and 11 blitzers is 54 delay for -.2 tp/hit. Blu loses even LESS TP/hit than nin, while losing MORE delay.

Mnk: (H2H: Low Delay)
Martial Arts VII: Base Delay: 280
Weapon: Taipan Fangs +1: Total delay: 341
TP/hit: 341/2 = 170.5
5.0 + [(170.5 - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
TP/hit = 4.9

11 Blitzers: Total Delay: 299
TP/hit = 4.7

Delay -42 TP/hit -.2

Pup: (H2H: High Delay)
Martial Arts III: Base Delay: 360
Weapon: Taipan Fangs +1: Total Delay 421
TP/hit: 421/2 = 210.5
5.0 + [(210.5 - 180) * 6.5 / 270]
TP/hit = 5.7

11 Blitzers: Total Delay: 370
TP/hit = 5.1

Pup gains the least relatively, losing 51 delay for .5 TP/hit,

Next part, The difference in delay vs the difference in tp/hit.

Nin: (Dual Wield: Low Delay)
No Blitzers:
Delay: 241: ~4.01 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.6: 22 hits/100 TP

11 Blitzers:
Delay: 192: ~3.2 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.3: 24 hits/100 TP

Blu: (Dual Wield: High Delay)
Delay: 368: ~6.13 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 5.0: 20 hits/100 TP

11 Blitzers:
Delay: 312: ~5.2 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.8: 21 hits/100 TP

Mnk: (H2H: Low Delay)
Delay: 341: ~5.68 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.9: 21 hits/100 TP

11 Blitzers:
Delay: 299: ~4.98 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.7: 22 hits/100 TP

Pup: (H2H: High Delay)
Delay: 421: ~7.01 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 5.7: 18 hits/100 TP

11 Blitzers:
Delay: 370: ~6.16 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 5.1: 20 hits/100 TP


So, in every situation, the DD gains just shy of a second on their attack speed, monk being the exception as Martial Arts is a static -20 per tier, rather than -% (Pup's delay is high enough that its gain from the -% is about the same as nin/blu), at the cost of 1-2 more hits to 100. Now, if you remember that DW/h2h jobs' melee hits account for as much, if not more of their total Damage compared to their WS, shaving off a second between attack rounds is a huge gain for melee DoT, compared to a relatively small loss for WS output (Worst case scenario, HALF a TP/hit).

The matter isn't so much that -delay is a huge increase in DoT as it is that Store TP does so much less for DW/h2h than it does for 2h weapons, mostly due to the TP formulas. The solid increase in damage from -delay will easily negate the relatively minor loss of less than half of a tp/hit over the course of any fight. When you consider that any haste the DDs will be getting will further reduce their delay, and that Blitzer's roll reduces delay BEYOND every haste cap, including the 80% hard cap, and you account for any Store TP that the dds might be wearing (Dancers excluded, no intelligent DW/h2h melee will gear for Store TP specifically, because there's just no point at our low delays) can offset the loss further. ****, Rajas Ring alone nearly cuts the loss in half.

To further prove my point; here's the TP gain over time lay out (Note: I'm accounting for accuracy, assuming a 95% hit rate by increasing the necessary number of attacks to 100TP by 1, as all are ~20 hits):

Nin: (Dual Wield: Low Delay)
12 attack rounds to full TP, at ~4.01 sec/round; ~48.12 seconds between WS

11 Blitzers:
13 attack rounds to full TP, at 3.2 sec/round; ~41.6 seconds between WS

Blu: (Dual Wield: High Delay)
11 attack rounds at 6.13; ~67.43 seconds between WS

11 Blitzers:
11 attack rounds at 5.2; 57.2 seconds between WS

Mnk: (H2H: Low Delay)
11 attack rounds at 5.68; 62.48 seconds between WS

11 Blitzers:
12 attack rounds at 4.98; 59.76 seconds between WS

Pup: (H2H: High Delay)
10 attack rounds at 7.01; 70.1 seconds between WS

11 Blitzers:
11 attack rounds at 6.16; 67.76 seconds between WS

So, in every scenario, despite lowered TP/hit, blitzers always allows WS faster.

TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:
Also worth considering is, as pointed out at the time, blitzers being haste would have been redundant, as JA haste caps at 25%, and between Hasso/Haste Samba, it wouldn't have been much in the way of a buff; where as straight -delay works alongside haste, meaning that, for example, unlike every other haste buff in the game, cor can actually make a hundred fisting monk hundred fists faster. If you're in a party of primarily 1h/h2h, Chaos/Blitzers is going to beat Chaos/Fighters every time.


No, its not. DW jobs benefit far more from STP then you seem to understand.


No, DW jobs benefit far less from STP than you seem to understand, as the math above demonstrates. If you still disagree with my stance, and feel I don't understand how store TP affects my favorite, and best geared, jobs, I welcome you to show me the math that supports your argument.

TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:
Also, it may be worth looking at rogue's roll again, given the retarded amount of +crit damage available now. I base this on the fact that it's been decided that claymore grip (crit hit rate +3%) trumps pole grip (Double attack +2%) for 2h weapons with much +crit damage. Depending on peoples' atma selection, giving someone more crit hit rate on top of a massive chunk of crit hit damage may be more beneficial than one of the other rolls. Say someone has capped +crit damage (+50%), and are using DW or h2h, I'd think it fairly likely that blitzer's/rogue's is going to blow anything else out of the water.


Claymore Grip is only beneficial if you are using both RR and a Crit WS, and (I believe) capping Crit damage+ (I could be wrong on that last part). Rogue's Roll actually falls even farther behind as you continue to stack crit rate (diminishing returns etc.) and is now even worse then before. What you "think" about Blitzer's/Rogue's is, quite frankly, wrong.

Chaos/Fighter's is, once again, superior about 99% of the time.


I said it's worth looking into, not that it's sure to be worth using. I'm well aware of the diminishing returns of stacking crit rate, but I'm talking about the math. Don't forget, Double Attack gives diminishing returns as well, and while critical hits can have their damage increased, with the exception of warriors wearing multiple pieces of Empyrean +2, double attacks do not.

Edited, Nov 21st 2010 2:52am by Jinte
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Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#31 Nov 21 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Default
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I quote just cause I can't rate up twice. Agree with every word.


How do you get to rate up anything? Is that a pay feature or something?
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#32 Nov 21 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Default
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Jinte's Math


You're correct, you're shaving about a second off of your attack speed and increasing the number of rounds by about 1-2 for every job.

Assuming you roll an 11.

An 11 on Fighter's gives you an 18% increase in Double Attack (24% if you have a WAR/hat proc/etc.) At 18% with at least 20 attacks you're getting at least 3 extra attacks per round, and probably closer to 4 or 5. This obviously increases if you have VV, Brutal, /war, etc. I'd say its fairly close. But you can DA on WS's, and you're also not likely to have a party entirely of DWers Blitzer's is still going to fall behind.

Quote:

No, DW jobs benefit far less from STP than you seem to understand, as the math above demonstrates. If you still disagree with my stance, and feel I don't understand how store TP affects my favorite, and best geared, jobs, I welcome you to show me the math that supports your argument


STP is still going to shave off a couple of attack rounds on your way to 100 TP. Minimal amounts for DW jobs shave off an attack or around, which is what I was trying to get at.

Quote:

I said it's worth looking into, not that it's sure to be worth using. I'm well aware of the diminishing returns of stacking crit rate, but I'm talking about the math. Don't forget, Double Attack gives diminishing returns as well, and while critical hits can have their damage increased, with the exception of warriors wearing multiple pieces of Empyrean +2, double attacks do not.


It was worth looking into. It has been looked into. Various people have math'd it heavily (Failure in paritcular). It falls behind fairly quickly. If you have 2 CORs and are already capping attack, then maybe? Fighter's/SAM/Blitzer's/Rogue's?
#33 Nov 22 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Good
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You're correct, you're shaving about a second off of your attack speed and increasing the number of rounds by about 1-2 for every job.

Assuming you roll an 11.

An 11 on Fighter's gives you an 18% increase in Double Attack (24% if you have a WAR/hat proc/etc.) At 18% with at least 20 attacks you're getting at least 3 extra attacks per round, and probably closer to 4 or 5. This obviously increases if you have VV, Brutal, /war, etc. I'd say its fairly close. But you can DA on WS's, and you're also not likely to have a party entirely of DWers Blitzer's is still going to fall behind.


Go back and read ALL of Jintes post, none of it is tough to understand and might help u make a better argument.

I agree Fighters roll is better but only if your getting the job bonus.

Any MNK or NIN with RR needs Blitzer's or Fighters. The rolls are both to good. For example, from Jintes numbers on MNK - having an Blitz11 up also gives a 4.6% increase in WS frequency for MNK.

+Crit and +Double attack are worth less/1% the higher you get. Once your at 25% Double Attack, a further 15% Double attack only increases your dmg by 12%, the same for crits.

Total delay 341 (Taipan fangs) with 25% gear haste, haste spell, and 2x Marches brings delay down to:
136DELAY or an attack round every 2.27seconds.

With the 11 Blitzers, the total delay for a Taipan MNK with 25% gear haste, haste spell and 2x MArches is:
119.6DELAY or an attack round every 1.99secs.

Giving MNK a solid 14% increase in already high DMG.

Fighters pretty much does the same, but it needs to have the WAR job bonus presant. Ideally, Nins, Mnks, Thf's, Blu's, DW war's with RR could all do fighters/Blitzer's.

Remember also Crits give bigger dmg boosts the lower your ratio (which isn't to mean you want it low) just that a roll like Chaos would be worth less imo in the above situations.

I'd call Fighters and Blitzers a tie, followed by Chaos, then Rogues.


The stuff your saying about STP is wrong for DW jobs. The benifits are tiny. Sam's roll Only good for 2H's if their knocking a hit off 100% and on top of their TP. If one of those isn't happening, then the roll is useless on whoever its on.

Rolling for a mix of DW and 2H melee's, Chaos & Fighters are best.
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#34 Nov 22 2010 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
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I quote just cause I can't rate up twice. Agree with every word.


How do you get to rate up anything? Is that a pay feature or something?
anyone with Scholar level karma can rate posts.

TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:
Jinte's Math


You're correct, you're shaving about a second off of your attack speed and increasing the number of rounds by about 1-2 for every job.

Assuming you roll an 11.

An 11 on Fighter's gives you an 18% increase in Double Attack (24% if you have a WAR/hat proc/etc.) At 18% with at least 20 attacks you're getting at least 3 extra attacks per round, and probably closer to 4 or 5. This obviously increases if you have VV, Brutal, /war, etc. I'd say its fairly close. But you can DA on WS's, and you're also not likely to have a party entirely of DWers Blitzer's is still going to fall behind.


No, you didn't read my entire post. The time shaved off between attack rounds more than makes up for the MAXIMUM OF ONE ROUND increase in hits to 100 TP for DW/h2h jobs.

As for fighter's roll, 18% DA is +18 attacks per 100 attacks, the total benefit of which is decreased for all preexisting double attack (let's please not start another "Double Attack is Diminishing Returns" "No it isn't, you suck at math" argument), when compared to blitzer's, which increases damage output due to preexisting delay reduction (Haste). /War and Brutal gives a base 15%, adding more double attack to that won't increase the gain of the previous double attack, and with the exception of sea weapons, if the people receiving it are using any multi-hit weapons, the gain is further lost due to said multi-hit weapons. Conversely, adding delay reduction not only directly increases damage output (by more than enough to negate the minuscule loss in tp/hit), but also stacks with the overall damage increase caused by haste gear/spells/abilities, though technically lowering the potency of said haste somewhat, the net result is still going to be delay lower than either source could achieve individually.

For the sake of comparison;
/war + brutal + VV + 11fighters: 38% Double Attack
out of 100 attacks, 38 will proc double attack. Of these 38, 32-36 attacks will land when accounting for accuracy (85-95% hit rate).

Using the same jobs as before (Mnk and Nin), I'll compare Fighter's roll to Blitzer's roll (Assuming either is stacked with Chaos, to make them mutually exclusive, given how much easier it is to cap attack (Not 999, but capping the usefulness of increasing attack) in abyssea though, I'd honestly say Blitzer's+Fighter's would win over all). I'll give each scenario 5 minutes, and will be generous and assume a 95% hit rate

Nin/war +brutal +VV
No Rolls:
Delay: 241: ~4.01 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.6: 22 hits/100 TP
Double attack: 20%

5 minutes of melee:
Number of attacks: 177
Number of attacks landed: 168
TP gained: 772.8 (Note: Accounting for VV's 2tp/tick regain; 200 TP over the course of 5 minutes, isn't necessary, as it holds true for all situations)
Maximum number of Weapon Skills possible: 7

11 Fighters:
Delay: 241: ~4.01 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.6: 22 hits/100 TP
Double attack: 38%

5 minutes of melee:
Number of attacks: 204
Number of attacks landed: 193
TP gained: 887.8
Maximum number of Weapon Skills possible: 8

11 Blitzers:
Delay: 192: ~3.2 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.3: 24 hits/100 TP
Double attack: 20%

5 minutes of melee:
Number of attacks: 223
Number of attacks landed: 211
TP gained: 907
Maximum number of Weapon Skills possible: 9

So, for a ninja, the increase in double attack gives less over all benefit in every field, relative to the decrease in delay. Blitzer's allows for more attacks, more TP, and more weaponskills. If you had a warrior for the job bonus, the extra 6% double attack would allow Fighter's to Equal blitzer's in terms of WS output, but Blitzer's would still win due to Melee DoT.

Mnk/war +brutal +VV
No Rolls
Delay: 341: ~5.68 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.9: 21 hits/100 TP
Double Attack: 20%
Kick Attacks: 10%

5 minutes of melee:
Number of attacks: 129
Number of attacks landed: 122
TP gained: 597.8
Maximum number of Weapon Skills possible: 5

11 Fighter's Roll
Delay: 341: ~5.68 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.9: 21 hits/100 TP
Double Attack: 38%
Kick Attacks: 10%

5 minutes of melee:
Number of attacks: 148
Number of attacks landed: 140
TP gained: 686.0
Maximum number of Weapon Skills possible: 6

11 Blitzers:
Delay: 299: ~4.98 seconds between attack rounds
TP/hit: 4.7: 22 hits/100 TP
Double Attack: 20%
Kick Attacks: 10%

5 minutes of melee:
Number of attacks: 150
Number of attacks landed: 142
TP gained: 667.4
Maximum number of Weapon Skills possible: 6

For a monk, the difference between Blitzer's and Fighter's is small. Fighter's gains a little more TP over time, but Blitzer's lands more attacks over time. The majority of a monk's damage normally comes from their attacks landed, not their weapon skills, so blitzer's increase in the number of attacks will win out in terms of damage, though the margin would be negligible. If there's a warrior present, Fighter's roll would move ahead, but the difference between it and blitzer's would still be negligible.

TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:

No, DW jobs benefit far less from STP than you seem to understand, as the math above demonstrates. If you still disagree with my stance, and feel I don't understand how store TP affects my favorite, and best geared, jobs, I welcome you to show me the math that supports your argument


STP is still going to shave off a couple of attack rounds on your way to 100 TP. Minimal amounts for DW jobs shave off an attack or around, which is what I was trying to get at.


Did you read what I posted at all? I did the math to show exactly how much is lost/gained. The most any of the jobs I listed lost was 2 attacks, or a single attack round to 100 TP, but at the same time, every job reached 100 TP faster, despite the single extra attack round required to hit 100 TP, meaning that in the same amount of time, Blitzer's not only generates more attacks, but also more TP, than not having it.

TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:

I said it's worth looking into, not that it's sure to be worth using. I'm well aware of the diminishing returns of stacking crit rate, but I'm talking about the math. Don't forget, Double Attack gives diminishing returns as well, and while critical hits can have their damage increased, with the exception of warriors wearing multiple pieces of Empyrean +2, double attacks do not.


It was worth looking into. It has been looked into. Various people have math'd it heavily (Failure in paritcular). It falls behind fairly quickly. If you have 2 CORs and are already capping attack, then maybe? Fighter's/SAM/Blitzer's/Rogue's?


Alright, I wasn't aware of this. Would you be willing to link me to some of the math in question? I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm honestly asking for a link so I can look at it.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2010 8:47pm by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#35 Nov 23 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Its nice to see you doing math Jinte :)

If posters can argue math with math it leads to respectful arguments. Personally, If I had RR & VV, I'd want Blitzer's and Fighters up w/o a shadow of a doubt. Until I get RR (which I should of done last night but just happend to have fight with gf 10mins before the other ls was due to pop) I'd prefer Blitz & Chaos.

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#36 Nov 23 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Default
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I'd call Fighters and Blitzers a tie, followed by Chaos, then Rogues.


Any situation in which your attack is not capped, Chaos will be superior. Since attack isn't capped no anything important without Chaos and Stalwart's (ie exp mobs) Chaos is pretty much always the top choice. In an exp party, for example, I'd probably do Fighter's/Blitzer's. But lolexp.

Quote:

For a monk, the difference between Blitzer's and Fighter's is small. Fighter's gains a little more TP over time, but Blitzer's lands more attacks over time. The majority of a monk's damage normally comes from their attacks landed, not their weapon skills, so blitzer's increase in the number of attacks will win out in terms of damage, though the margin would be negligible. If there's a warrior present, Fighter's roll would move ahead, but the difference between it and blitzer's would still be negligible.


I agree with most of this (although MNK has significantly higher WS damage now with Ascetic's). But again, generally speaking you'll have a mix of melee, not just DW jobs.

Quote:

Alright, I wasn't aware of this. Would you be willing to link me to some of the math in question? I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm honestly asking for a link so I can look at it.


I haven't seen it math'd on a forum, although you're certainly welcome to redo it. We had a discussion about it before Ein a few weeks ago and Failure (FailureMidgard on BG) math'd it real quick. Assuming you have RR, Rogue's falls behind Chaos, Fighter's, Blitzer's, and SAM iirc.

Without getting into the math itself, common sense dictates this is correct. You're going to have ~54% base crit rate before any gear (30% RR, 24-25% DDEX capped). Add in any Crit Rate+ gear, and most jobs probably have around a 60% crit rate. Rogue's just doesn't seem too spectacular at that point.
#37 Nov 23 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
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TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:
I'd call Fighters and Blitzers a tie, followed by Chaos, then Rogues.


Any situation in which your attack is not capped, Chaos will be superior. Since attack isn't capped no anything important without Chaos and Stalwart's (ie exp mobs) Chaos is pretty much always the top choice. In an exp party, for example, I'd probably do Fighter's/Blitzer's. But lolexp.


Or if, for example, you've got mnk/war and/or nin/war, and they're riding berserk/stalwarts. Chaos isn't the only easy way to cap out attack, especially with the big chunks of attack some of the better DD atmas give (Since, obviously, not everyone has Razed Ruin)

TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:

For a monk, the difference between Blitzer's and Fighter's is small. Fighter's gains a little more TP over time, but Blitzer's lands more attacks over time. The majority of a monk's damage normally comes from their attacks landed, not their weapon skills, so blitzer's increase in the number of attacks will win out in terms of damage, though the margin would be negligible. If there's a warrior present, Fighter's roll would move ahead, but the difference between it and blitzer's would still be negligible.


I agree with most of this (although MNK has significantly higher WS damage now with Ascetic's). But again, generally speaking you'll have a mix of melee, not just DW jobs.


Well, yes. My whole point was in situations where you don't have mixed melee, or in situations where the ratio of DW/H2H:2H heavily favors the former; I'm always against giving every DD buffs for the sake of one DD, and so is every other intelligent person: You don't give a party Hunter's if one person has ****** accuracy, and in the same logic, you shouldn't give a pt 2h buffs if only one of the DDs is 2h (with exceptions, such as situations where said single 2h is doing more damage than every other DD in the party combined, but those are few and far between.... most of the time... I hope...)

TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:

Alright, I wasn't aware of this. Would you be willing to link me to some of the math in question? I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm honestly asking for a link so I can look at it.


I haven't seen it math'd on a forum, although you're certainly welcome to redo it. We had a discussion about it before Ein a few weeks ago and Failure (FailureMidgard on BG) math'd it real quick. Assuming you have RR, Rogue's falls behind Chaos, Fighter's, Blitzer's, and SAM iirc.

Without getting into the math itself, common sense dictates this is correct. You're going to have ~54% base crit rate before any gear (30% RR, 24-25% DDEX capped). Add in any Crit Rate+ gear, and most jobs probably have around a 60% crit rate. Rogue's just doesn't seem too spectacular at that point.


That's logical enough for me, honestly; though citing Failure as your source is the main credibility in my eyes, since afaik, his math is normally solid.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#38 Nov 24 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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from a DD perspective, blitzer's is going to destroy fighters in over all damage for anyone that's not using an x-hit build. For 1h/h2h jobs, lowering delay gives more than reducing tp/hit takes. Also worth considering is, as pointed out at the time, blitzers being haste would have been redundant, as JA haste caps at 25%, and between Hasso/Haste Samba, it wouldn't have been much in the way of a buff; where as straight -delay works alongside haste, meaning that, for example, unlike every other haste buff in the game, cor can actually make a hundred fisting monk hundred fists faster. If you're in a party of primarily 1h/h2h, Chaos/Blitzers is going to beat Chaos/Fighters every time.

Also, it may be worth looking at rogue's roll again, given the retarded amount of +crit damage available now. I base this on the fact that it's been decided that claymore grip (crit hit rate +3%) trumps pole grip (Double attack +2%) for 2h weapons with much +crit damage. Depending on peoples' atma selection, giving someone more crit hit rate on top of a massive chunk of crit hit damage may be more beneficial than one of the other rolls. Say someone has capped +crit damage (+50%), and are using DW or h2h, I'd think it fairly likely that blitzer's/rogue's is going to blow anything else out of the water.


Just curious, but are you taking into account all delay reduction caps at 80%, whether it's haste, enhances dual wield, or anything else?

testing taken from BG Delay reduction testing
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#39 Nov 24 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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anyone with Scholar level karma can rate posts.


And how much rating up does that take? Years of posting and only durrin the first one could I rate any **** posts at all. Never had a clue how the rating system here really worked.
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#40 Nov 24 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
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That's logical enough for me, honestly; though citing Failure as your source is the main credibility in my eyes, since afaik, his math is normally solid.


He's my main source of credibility in my eyes too! too :x

Quote:
Just curious, but are you taking into account all delay reduction caps at 80%, whether it's haste, enhances dual wield, or anything else?


Had completely forgotten about this, although it's quite valid. DNC and NIN, at least, can cap delay easily without Blitzer's
#41 Nov 24 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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TanthPhoenix wrote:
Quote:
Just curious, but are you taking into account all delay reduction caps at 80%, whether it's haste, enhances dual wield, or anything else?


Had completely forgotten about this, although it's quite valid. DNC and NIN, at least, can cap delay easily without Blitzer's


I wasn't even made aware of this until after my last response to this thread, so no I wasn't. That does complicate things a bit more, but I've got to much of a headache to math tonight
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#42 Nov 27 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Wiki has new information on Navarch's +2 set bonus.
Augments "Quick Draw": Quick Draw occasionally deals triple damage.

If it's true... this is awesome Y/N?
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#43 Nov 27 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Tatham wrote:
Wiki has new information on Navarch's +2 set bonus.
Augments "Quick Draw": Quick Draw occasionally deals triple damage.

If it's true... this is awesome Y/N?


That would fall inline with some of the other set bonuses.
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#44 Nov 27 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
omfg!!! Now I suddenly want all the +2 pieces!
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#45 Nov 27 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Default
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omfg!!! Now I suddenly want all the +2 pieces!


Why? AF1 head is still leaps and bounds ahead of the AF3+2.

Legs are debatable, but I think ASA legs with Macc/Mattk would win.
#46 Nov 28 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
Well, isn't triple damage more than AF hat+ASA pants mab+4?

Also a question comes to mind...does this mean that with the full set the bonus is x5dmg since it's triple with 3 pieces? o.o
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#47 Nov 28 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty sure it is triple damage as static, and proc rate depends on amount of gear.
#48 Nov 29 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Sehachan wrote:
Well, isn't triple damage more than AF hat+ASA pants mab+4?

Also a question comes to mind...does this mean that with the full set the bonus is x5dmg since it's triple with 3 pieces? o.o

It seems pretty ridiculous to trade the guaranteed damage boost of AF/+1 hat for the ~3% chance of Triple Damage when you could just use the legs/feet and get a 2% chance of triple damage AND the AF/+1 hat's damage boost Smiley: dubious Also, like mellowy said, it's proc rate+ for more gear, not damage increase.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#49 Nov 29 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
My mind totally bypassed the word "occasionally" xD I'm sorry, I read triple damage and got too excited xD
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#50 Dec 04 2010 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure if any of the parts currently out, other than the feet are even worth it for QD. There are better things to increase overall DMG rather than just a chance at triple dmg. I am really hoping the Body and Hand pieces are nice QD gear, because if not, I most likely will not be using the +2 except for the feet for QD. Honestly, when the set bonus came out, I was PRAYING that the augments QD would occasionally not consume a QD charge, which would be much better and more appealing for the whole set IMO.
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#51 Dec 04 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Default
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I'm not sure if any of the parts currently out, other than the feet are even worth it for QD. There are better things to increase overall DMG rather than just a chance at triple dmg. I am really hoping the Body and Hand pieces are nice QD gear, because if not, I most likely will not be using the +2 except for the feet for QD. Honestly, when the set bonus came out, I was PRAYING that the augments QD would occasionally not consume a QD charge, which would be much better and more appealing for the whole set IMO.


I think the combination of AGI, STP, and the set bonus make the legs arguably the best piece. I'd certainly use them over anything except Desultors and I don't think Desultor's are worth the ASA reward.
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