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#1 Jul 30 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Hi guys. I've finally been picking up some merit parties whenever I get tells from a few certain people. I don't like making parties, so I prefer to have leaders of my favorite parties keep an eye out for me and send me /tells when they are going out. Anyway.

I finally have 1 fold and 1 winning streak. I have a question though about fold. Firstly, I know most people here will say 5 snake eye, 3-4 fold and 1 LD, unless you have 3 fold and put one into winning streak as well. Here's my thinking with fold though. It is definitely useful for removing a bust effect. With Snake eye at a theoretical 5/5, you are already guaranteeing one strong roll every buff cycle. With fold at 5/5, you can increase this to a potential 2 guaranteed strong rolls.

So I was in a merit party at bird camp, RDM BRD COR WAR SAM RNG. I busted on a double six and went to use fold, but then realized I had already used random deal less than 5 minutes previous. So now I have no bust effect, but I still have to wait for PR to cool down.In the end, Fold didn't have the effect I imagined or hyped it up as, in my mind. I imagined if I had a bust I could remove it and re-roll immediately to not let it throw a rotation off by a few seconds.

Am I expecting too much of fold? If that's not how it is intended to be used, how do you all see it as being used? One way I think is that, by removing a bust effect you can feel free to continue to roll aggressively on your other buffs. This would allow you to continue to push the limits(and cross your fingers you don't get double six)for the rest of the buffs in a typical rotation/cycle. Is this the real reason it's useful? I suppose if I want fold to be useful in the way I imagine it, that I could change group 1 merits around to have PR recast maxed instead. Does that sound like it makes sense? XD

Winning Streak-
I feel like the purpose of having more winning streak merits would be to alleviate more time between buff cycles for more DD action, -OR- to allow you to switch between parties in an alliance situation <18 members. In that case however, It would be impossible to switch between two parties and give them identical buffs without the use of fold on a 5 minute timer.

Loaded Deck-
After seeing the RD stuff and thinking about it more, I feel like having 2 LD merits would significantly improve the results of my RD. 1 point has such a large effect on the success of RD. I know it is not used often due to its timer, but in some ways it makes sense to ensure it is a vital tool you can rely on. In other ways, since it is such a long timer some people consider it a mildly reliable backup plan at best but never expect much out of it; They never expect it to be reliable in a tight situation...even though it is very possible to make it so.

In the end through my internal debate I have so far decided on:
5 Snake eye
2 Fold
2 Loaded deck
1 Winning streak


When thinking about advice to give me personally, since each COR's merits should best reflect what they do for COR, here is what I mostly use COR for.
Merits
Low-man ENM, trio with friends, etc.
Limbus

I would eventually like to use it for occasional Dynamis(when I can get away from the main tank slot) and would LIKE to use it for Sky and Sea on a 50/50 basis with my PLD, since I cannot deny the fact my PLD is pretty well experienced. I don't have a Sky or Sea shell at the moment, but plan to make a decision on one shortly so I can get C/BFG and other goodies. Thanks!
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#2 Jul 30 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I went 3 Fold, 1 WS, 1 LD, 5 Snake eye.

With that combo I'm very happy. It's rare i ever have bust status, meaning I can still be a bit more aggressive. I get an extra 20 sec on my rolls in case the cycle gets a little off. I don't think 2 merits in LD will substantially improve RD enough to warrant not getting an extra merit in one of the other three.

And QD Acc and recast all the way. Light Shot is my best friend as a COR.
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#3 Jul 30 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Also, as far as busting double 6's using fold and not having RD up:

If my initial roll hits 6 I sit on it for about 30 seconds, then double up. If I bust, I can fold and wait about 15 seconds to reroll. If I don't bust that was only 30 seconds of a weak roll.

But this requires you to have the time to sit next to melee in order to wait it out. If you are pulling it doesn't fly and you may need to sit on a folded bust for 45 seconds waiting for PR recast.

Fold also doesn't have to be about removing the negative effect of a bust on yourself, it can also be saved for when you have a double bust effect on from rolling very aggressively and you need to clear one in order to be able to roll again.
#4 Jul 30 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I went 5 Snake Eye, 3 Winning Streak, 1 Fold, 1 Loaded Deck.

1/5 Loaded Deck - deserves at least one merit, but more into that is generally a waste in my opinion.

5/5 Snake Eye - pretty much essential to me nowadays. There's no excuse to ever have an unlucky roll with this fully merited :)

1/5 Fold - Between 5/5 Snake Eye and Fold, you have nearly endless utility to not ever land on an unlucky roll. In response to your post, if you land on a 6 on your first roll, wait until Double Up is about to wear off (45 seconds after you first roll) then double up. If you bust, you can fold and Phantom Roll will be about to come back up again. It's up to you whether to merit more into fold or winning streak depending on your play style.

3/5 Winning Streak - Went with this cause I am the lone corsair (atm) in my linkshell and often DO switch parties to buff the alliance. This just gives me that much more breathing room where I don't have to worry about rolls going down. Plus gives me more time to PEW PEW and do damage.
#5 Jul 30 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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My problem with Snake Eye and Fold are that I hardly use them. I do Merits, Dynamis, Einherjar, ENMs, BCNMs, have done ZNMS in the past, Nyzul, Assaults, and the occasional Salvage.

I can see the benefit of having make Snake and Fold but I cant make myself go there it seems. Generally I save Snake eye for evokers, or anything I roll a 10 on. Those 2 instances have the greatest impact by being double-uped.

With the Buff to our Relic Body I would be interested to see if we cant force Random Deal to make it reset 2 abilities more often. I use Random Deal a great deal in Dynamis and when im in a merit pt or BCNM fight.

We have the basic merits of 5/5 QD recast and 5/5 QD acc and at least 1 Loaded Deck, 1 Fold, and 1 Snake eyes. Winning Streak is only good if your doing a COR swap as I never have encountered a time where I needed more then 5 min to get buffs up. Ill probably put 2/3 in Loaded deck depending on how a second merit works.
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#6 Jul 30 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the thoughts, I like how everyone has posted their personal choices in merits and what encouraged them to do that, depending on their play style. Keep it goin! =D





Alobont wrote:
Winning Streak is only good if your doing a COR swap as I never have encountered a time where I needed more then 5 min to get buffs up. Ill probably put 2/3 in Loaded deck depending on how a second merit works.


I played with both melee-for-TP and shoot-for-TP in my last merit party, to get a feel for what seems better. Winning streak merits help a lot if you are going the ranged attack route I'd think, since they enable you to have more shots inbetween rolls. As much as I love to shoot for TP I've realized that, quite painfully, even our best ammo at a higher price than RNG ammo cannot match a well geared RNG, so it will always be more effective to melee for TP, and step back for ranged WS when going for maximum damage. For those situations where being in melee range is not the best option however, winning streak would help. I agree it's probably not the best investment though.

Having at least 1 in winning streak does allow you a full extra minute into your buff rotation though. Potential to support 3 different types of people in a party, OR give two different groups of DD different buffs(if not using cor roll). For instance, in a limbus/dynamis situation where exp is not an issue and you have two types of DD in the same party.(RNG + melee, BLU + melee, etc.) But thats a somewhat moot point as positioning is that much more difficult in these areas. Dynamis, if anything.

I do plan to do more RD spamming after some LD merits though, so you could expect to see those results in awhile. Probably just post them in that same thread since all the other tests were posted there.
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#7 Jul 30 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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I did 3 Winning Streak instead of 3 Fold too and I've never regretted it for even a second. There are countless situations where my buffs lasting an extra minute has been invaluable. Thats one extra minute of making 5 other people much more effective at their jobs. Like you said, it also allows you to rotate between two parties better for zerg buffing and so forth. I can understand the appeal of Fold when you use it to erase a bad roll and try again, but in my experience getting overly picky about that will only put you farther and farther behind and it's usually not an issue with 5/5 Snake Eye anyways. I personally just use Fold as double bust insurance.
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#8 Jul 30 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My problem with Snake Eye and Fold are that I hardly use them. I do Merits, Dynamis, Einherjar, ENMs, BCNMs, have done ZNMS in the past, Nyzul, Assaults, and the occasional Salvage.


Having 5/5 SE and 3/5-5/5 Fold merits makes you roll more aggressively. I cannot imagine not having SE ready when you roll unlucky numbers or when you roll 1 below lucky numbers or a perfect number. I don't save SE just to accommodate one roll. Corsairs are gamblers, gamble away.

I have 5/5 SE, 2/5 Fold (going to increase it to 4/5), 1/5 WS (getting rid of this), and 2/5 LD (will probably change this to 1/5).

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#9 Jul 30 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm surprised many of you find so little use of Fold and Snake eye. I'm on those timers constantly. Maybe I'm just an unlucky roller and need the extra help lol.

Seriously, there is nothing more reassuring than getting a 6 on Chaos or Evokers and seeing both SE and Fold timers at 0:00. It means I can go for it and try to get that XI rather than be more conservative. Unluckies come up often enough its nice to be able to have two options to deal with it on fairly frequent tmers.

I don't do COR swaps much so the WS merits are wasted on my playstyle. But I love going for good rolls. My Dynamis group was laughing at me the other day for all my busts. But it was because I had Fold up every 10 min I could be more aggressive and risk busting more. They rarely go with a bad roll.
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#10 Jul 30 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Not really clear how any Corsair finds so little value in Snake Eye or Fold, these are two of the most useful merits in the game across all jobs.

After all, our job is really to give our fellow team members the best possible rolls we can, and these two meritable abilities directly correlate to that function, whereas the other two Tier 2 Corsair merits do not.

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#11 Jul 30 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
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Alobont wrote:
I use Random Deal a great deal in Dynamis and when im in a merit pt or BCNM fight.


Can I ask why? I've used it once I think because I actually remembered it was one of our abilities.
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#12 Jul 30 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My problem with Snake Eye and Fold are that I hardly use them. I do Merits, Dynamis, Einherjar, ENMs, BCNMs, have done ZNMS in the past, Nyzul, Assaults, and the occasional Salvage.


You need to roll more aggressively. ;)

It's not always easy to do that pre-75, but that is the whole point of these merit JAs. Take some more risks~
#13 Jul 30 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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TheBarrister wrote:
Alobont wrote:
I use Random Deal a great deal in Dynamis and when im in a merit pt or BCNM fight.


Can I ask why? I've used it once I think because I actually remembered it was one of our abilities.


Depending on the party, I can reset sentinel timers, my own light shot when i need it, and various other stuff. With the relic body it becomes a lot more useful then it previously was.


I roll agressivelly all the time. Though im agressive about my rolls i still just dont use SE and Fold enough. I may use it one time in a merit pt and thats it. Maybe im just lucky with rolling. Having those merits isnt bad I, personally, just dont use them enough to make it a top priority.

While buffing is our main job is pretty easy with stuff like luzaf and relic hat. I feel as far as my buffs go im in a good spot where i can spend most of my time worrying about my damage and noty buffs because i know I got it right.

Edit: If i roll anything under a 7 a double up. I still dont see more of a use even with me doubling on 7s. Yes, the merits are nice and ill get some but just dont use those abilities that much, because I dont need to.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 4:03pm by Alobont
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#14 Jul 30 2009 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I went 5 SnakeEye, 3Winning Streak, 1 Fold, 1 Loaded Deck and would never set it up a different way. Makes it much easier to bounce between parties when you need to, as well as giving you more time to do other things. Specially nice for some of my upcoming NM solo attempts where it means I can ride out rolls that much longer and have more time to get space to reroll.
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#15 Jul 30 2009 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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I went 5 snake eye, 3 win streak, 1 LD, 1 fold.

My reasoning: 5 snake eye I think most of us agree on. I prefer to use it mostly to roll off an unlucky 8 or 9 (rolling off an unlucky 6 or 7 is usually just a double-up for me). I rarely use it to land a lucky (you have a 16% chance of doing that with a 1 anyway and a decent chance of rolling higher and hitting 10 or 11 also). However, if I deem a roll to be of critical importance (mnk roll on frogs in salvage, magus roll on a cerb type mob or the t10 assauly dverger boss), I will use snake eye to ensure lucky if I can.

win streak: I don't see too much value in adding just 20 secs to rolls. It gives you a little more wiggle room I guess. I like 6-min rolls. Get to keep your good rolls on longer and while it has been pointed out that bad rolls stay on longer too (with snake eye and fold, you cant have THAT many bad rolls and 2) if you get a bad cycle, you have the option of not waiting for 6 mins to be up to just reroll the cycle and start again). It also makes a 6-roll cycle viable, though tbh I've yet to come across a situation where that was needed lol.

I once did a fight vs Gotoh Ja (T3 ZNM mamool) where the pts lined up perfectly for me to do some pt hopping. Had a blmx5 pt and the tank pt. Was easy to buff one pt then the other using diff rolls. However I found that ppl with the pt lead were less than attentive when i needed back in and it wasnt worth the hassle >.> The T10 Dverger fight i did Magus on tank > MNKs on tank and ranged melee > evokers on mages > sch on mages > chaos on ranged attackers. 6 min rolls made that a lil easier.

Fold: My problem with more fold merits is the same one the OP encountered. I find that fold without random deal is just blah. You can, of course, attempt to "bust intelligently" a the end of our double-up timer but I find there's too much that can go wrong there. It's fine if you're rolling off an unlucky but off a 6 it just isn't that great. Let's say you're using evokers.. roll a 6.. wait till the timer is almost up and.. roll a 3 ><. You're stuck with unlucky evokers and you'd blow fold anyway. I'll usually just sit on a 6 (on evokers) anyway unless all my JAs are up or I deem the risk is worth it. Rolling off a 6 will only produce a better roll 33% of the time (same roll 33% and worse roll 33%). The odds just don't favor it. If snake eye is up though, then its slightly better.

Loaded deck: I agree that one merit in this is absolutly worth it. 50% chance to restore right? But the second merit only increases that by 10%, less worth it.

Anyway, that's my rationale for 5 SE, 3 WS, 1 LD, 1F.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 11:59pm by TDGSW

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 12:00am by TDGSW
#16 Jul 31 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
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Also in the camp of 5 Snake Eye, 3 Winning Streak, 1 Loaded Deck, 1 Fold.

SE is no contest, I ride the hell out of that timer.

Winning Streak is still kinda debatable, I used to be the merit puller (before I picked up a Joyeuse), so it was pretty essential to have for when I put up rolls. Now that I melee in merits, it's not as important. However, it's pretty useful for other events where people are running all over the place.

1 merit in loaded deck is the biggest buff you can get for RD, but anything more seems fairly meh.

1 Fold, I actually tend not to need this, despite doubling up on 6 and unluckies.
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#17 Jul 31 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I roll agressivelly all the time. Though im agressive about my rolls i still just dont use SE and Fold enough. I may use it one time in a merit pt and thats it. Maybe im just lucky with rolling. Having those merits isnt bad I, personally, just dont use them enough to make it a top priority.

While buffing is our main job is pretty easy with stuff like luzaf and relic hat. I feel as far as my buffs go im in a good spot where i can spend most of my time worrying about my damage and noty buffs because i know I got it right.


Your're either not using SE when you rolled unlucky numbers 7+, or you're just lucky that you're hitting the 'lucky numbers' and/or getting 10s and 11s.
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#18 Jul 31 2009 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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RusticusSageo wrote:
Quote:
I roll agressivelly all the time. Though im agressive about my rolls i still just dont use SE and Fold enough. I may use it one time in a merit pt and thats it. Maybe im just lucky with rolling. Having those merits isnt bad I, personally, just dont use them enough to make it a top priority.

While buffing is our main job is pretty easy with stuff like luzaf and relic hat. I feel as far as my buffs go im in a good spot where i can spend most of my time worrying about my damage and noty buffs because i know I got it right.


Your're either not using SE when you rolled unlucky numbers 7+, or you're just lucky that you're hitting the 'lucky numbers' and/or getting 10s and 11s.


Lets look at merit rolls.

Chaos: Lucky = 4, Unlucky = 8.
Most of the time its pretty easy to roll a 4 with out doubling. If i land on 5, 6, or 7 then I double. Its very very rare i land on 8. I mostly see 4, 5, and 9s.

Evokers: Lucky = 5, Unlucky = 9.
Most of the time I roll a 6 or 5. If I land on a 6 I generally dont double up due to the fact of such little gain. Now depending on the ecent I will but for merits a 6 is good enough.

Racc: Lucky = 4, Unlucky = 8
Same as chaos.

Sam: Lucky = 2, Unlucky = 6.
Hardly ever ever see a 2 or the ability to double up into one. I see a lot of 6s but then its just a double up to fix it.

Cor: Cant remember the numbers but they arent bad eitger.


Our merit rolls are at such easy numbers I just dont use the abilities enough.
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#19 Jul 31 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Chaos: Lucky = 4, Unlucky = 8.
Most of the time its pretty easy to roll a 4 with out doubling. If i land on 5, 6, or 7 then I double. Its very very rare i land on 8. I mostly see 4, 5, and 9s.

Evokers: Lucky = 5, Unlucky = 9.
Most of the time I roll a 6 or 5. If I land on a 6 I generally dont double up due to the fact of such little gain. Now depending on the ecent I will but for merits a 6 is good enough.

Racc: Lucky = 4, Unlucky = 8
Same as chaos.

Sam: Lucky = 2, Unlucky = 6.
Hardly ever ever see a 2 or the ability to double up into one. I see a lot of 6s but then its just a double up to fix it.

Cor: Cant remember the numbers but they arent bad eitger.



Why is 4 even remotely easy to roll. It's a 1/4 chance essentially if you consider all the possiblities to get there. 6 and 7's are far more common and even 8 is a very common roll. I'd say I have to roll SE on Chaos about every 4th time.

WIth Evoker's I agree that SE and Fold aren't used that much since 6 is a decent number. But Still a 9 will come up every now and then when you roll off a 4 or 3 and needs a SE. But also I'll often SE a 4 to ensure getting on the lucky if SE is up.

Hunters is same as Chaos.
COR is same as Evokers except a 6 is a bad number and I'll try to roll off it.
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#20 Jul 31 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Chaos: Lucky = 4, Unlucky = 8.
Most of the time its pretty easy to roll a 4 with out doubling. If i land on 5, 6, or 7 then I double. Its very very rare i land on 8. I mostly see 4, 5, and 9s.


I cannot even explain how wrong this statement is. The first roll, you will have the same probability of getting 1, 2, 3, 5 or 6. And if you get less than 4 on your 1st roll, your probability of hitting a total of 4 is going to be slimmer when you double up. How is it easier to get a 4 than a 6 or a 1 on the first roll? The rolls are so random, it has nothing to do with how easy to get a certain number. It is all based on luck. And that is why SE and Fold can manupulate the number you roll to your liking.

My guess is you only have 1 merit in SE (I'm assuming you have 1 merit), you end up saving SE when you hit a 10, and/or when you want to use it, the timer is not up because of 1 merit in it, thus giving you the perception of 'not using it' more often.



Edited, Jul 31st 2009 1:39pm by RusticusSageo
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#21 Jul 31 2009 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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RusticusSageo wrote:
Quote:
Chaos: Lucky = 4, Unlucky = 8.
Most of the time its pretty easy to roll a 4 with out doubling. If i land on 5, 6, or 7 then I double. Its very very rare i land on 8. I mostly see 4, 5, and 9s.


I cannot even explain how wrong this statement is. The first roll, you will have the same probability of getting 1, 2, 3, 5 or 6. And if you get less than 4 on your 1st roll, your probability of hitting a total of 4 is going to be slimmer when you double up. How is it easier to get a 4 than a 6 or a 1 on the first roll? The rolls are so random, it has nothing to do with how easy to get a certain number. It is all based on luck. And that is why SE and Fold can manupulate the number you roll to your liking.

My guess is you only have 1 merit in SE (I'm assuming you have 1 merit), you end up saving SE when you hit a 10, and/or when you want to use it, the timer is not up because of 1 merit in it, thus giving you the perception of 'not using it' more often.



Edited, Jul 31st 2009 1:39pm by RusticusSageo


Woah buddy calm down. My statement about the 4 is off my personal experiences. I roll 4 a lot from what ive seen so chill out. Yes I only have 1 merit, but if I need it I use it, I dont need it very often.
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