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"Enhances Random Deal" Issue fixed in new updateFollow

#1 Jul 20 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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http://www.playonline.com/pcd/verup/ff11us/detail/4742/detail.html

From the update notes:
The "Enhances 'Random Deal' effect" bonus granted by the following items is now functioning as intended:
Commodore Frac / Commodore Frac +1

It was broken, lol? Maybe that's why it was pretty useless.

Edit: Clarified topic

Edited, Jul 20th 2009 12:51pm by Igneus
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#2 Jul 20 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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it was broken? o.O lol
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#3Tarqs, Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 9:03 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) nother lol. I have this as well and honestly Random deal always sucked for me so i never really cared, i used it if it was up and i needed another roll or tried to reset RDM Convert timer or something.
#4 Jul 20 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Eh, I was always just under the impression that the Frac would just improve the chances of resetting a JA.

... honestly the only things I could think of that it could enhance Random Deal is by either resetting up to 2 JAs, or resetting one JA and halving the recast timers for one or 2 other JAs.
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#5 Jul 20 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Square Enix:

Latent Effect: Enhances "Placebo" Effect


Thanks, SE
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#6 Jul 20 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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SyrusSquirple wrote:
Square Enix:

Latent Effect: Enhances "Placebo" Effect


Thanks, SE


Here here! I was just in a merit party last night with phantom roll, Sharpshot and barrage timers down, and the RDM just converted so I tried to use RD with my shiney frac of awesome. I didn't get any JA's restored, and RD missed composure and convert on the RDM as well. I guess we all had little to no expectations of this latent effect in the first place since it's SE.

It's so rare that you use RD because of the lengthy timer so it's just something I guess none of us have really thought about trying to test(extensively)? First thing I'm gonna do is make someone use a JA and I'll use 3-4 and try RD and see what gets recharged and what doesn't.

I don't have any LD merits yet, so it should be interesting to test if frac gives the same effect of loaded deck, or if it just enhances accuracy of hitting a single JA waiting on its timer. I hope for the latter. :3 Then I can just put a single merit into winning streak and loaded deck, and 5 snake eye/ 3 fold.

Edited, Jul 20th 2009 1:59pm by FenrirXIII
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#7 Jul 20 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
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I think it is this from wiki:

Quote:
Small chance to restore 2 job abilities with more than one job ability waiting on recast.


The Frac says "enhances" not "augments" so it shouldn't change behavior, which the natural behavior is resetting ONE ability.

So in other words, SE probably just nerfed our random deal JA with frac equipped. Making it work as "intended", and instead of giving 2 chances at resetting JA's it will just add 10% chance or so to your only chance.

And I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this, just because SE loves doing negative things "just for the sake of being correct". See pets getting sambas.
#8 Jul 20 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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I am kinda dreading that scenario. While extremely unreliable, it is nice to get 2 abilities back. But yeah, it seems more likely that they would label it as "Augments" if it was intended to do that.

Probably still means you still need to have that 1 LD merit to guarantee 1 JA if 2 are off.
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#9 Jul 20 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Could also be that 2 JA thing was correct and they upped the percent or made 100%. But im being way optimistic.
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#10 Jul 20 2009 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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FenrirXIII wrote:

It's so rare that you use RD because of the lengthy timer so it's just something I guess none of us have really thought about trying to test(extensively)? First thing I'm gonna do is make someone use a JA and I'll use 3-4 and try RD and see what gets recharged and what doesn't.



I was thinking we could test by testing in front of a Nomad moogle or mog house. If we were to sub something with a lot of /JA's, we could spam RD over and over just switching SJ to reset. I've never noticed a difference in the Frac helping so maybe this update will fix it.
#11 Jul 21 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, I did some preliminary testing in the limited time I had this morning. In hindsight, should have written down my exact results, but basically, I took Shadowedge's suggestion and did the MH job switch thing to test Random Deal a lot. I should note that I do have Loaded Deck merited, though I don't think that makes a difference.

I did around fifteen tests and it looks like it resets 2 JAs very frequently, though I could have gotten extremely lucky. Also of note, it never seemed to reset 2 JAs when I only had two waiting on cooldown, but reset 2 if I had 3 or more on cooldown a lot. I estimate I did around 10 Random Deals with 3 or more JAs waiting on cooldown, and Random Deal only failed to reset 2 JAs twice.

I wish I had written down my results for more statistical analysis, but I'd guess that it's at least 50% if I was just lucky, but if it wasn't just luck, it might actually be much higher, possibly 75%.

If anyone else has done a bit more in depth testing on this, I'd love to hear their results as well.
#12 Jul 21 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Does Random Deal still pick stupid orders on JAs?

I once had 45 sec left on Phantom roll (because I was rolling) and 15 sec on Snake Eyes and thought I'd get snake eyes available in time by random dealing... but behold, it picked the 45 sec left ability over 15 sec (suggesting that it actually goes by "max recast" rather than "current recast")

In the end I noticed I could wait those 15 seconds and snake eyes + roll anyway, but it was probably fairly close to losing the re-roll option.
#13 Jul 21 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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I was so busy last night and I completely forgot. I'll **** around in Tav after the servers come up shortly here.

-These are all done with Commodore's Frac equipped for every test, no LD merits, immediately after maintenance finished today.

-Not sure how to compact it any. Wanted to leave line spaces between each set so it isn't too difficult to scan through visually.

/random configurations

1:
focus
dodge
chakra
returned: 0

2:
focus
dodge
chakra
returned: 0

3:
berserk
warcry
defender
returned: 0

4:
focus
dodge
chakra
boost
returned: 0

5:
focus
dodge
chakra
boost
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

possibly doesn't work on non-cor JA's for the COR

6:
berserk
defender
warcry
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

7:
focus
boost
phantom roll
returned: 1, boost

8:
third eye
meditate
warding circle
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

9:
third eye
meditate
wardinc circle
hasso
seigan
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

10:
third eye
meditate
returned: 0

11:
hasso
meditate
returned: 0

5 minute JA/1minute JA timers, mnk/cor and some war/cor JA combos

12:
focus
phantom roll
returned: 0

13:
berserk
phantom roll
returned: 0

14:
focus
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

15:
berserk
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

16:
phantom roll
focus
returned: 0

17:
berserk
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

18:
focus
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

19:
berserk
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

20:
focus
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

2 long JA timers same timers, mnk/mnk

21:
focus
dodge
returned: 0

22:
focus
dodge
returned: 0

23:
focus
dodge
returned: 0

24:
focus
dodge
returned: 0

25:
focus
dodge
returned: 0

26:
focus
dodge
returned: 0

27:
focus
dodge
returned: 0

28:
focus
dodge
returned: 1, focus - waited till timer was 4:50 before using RD...significance?

29:
focus
dodge
returned: 0 - waited for 4:50 on focus again...dodge 4:51

30:
focus
dodge
returned: 0 - waited for 4:47 focus, 4:49 dodge...

2 long JA timers, + short JA timer, mnk/mnk/mnk

31:
focus
dodge
boost
returned: 0

32:
focus
dodge
boost
returned: 0

33:
focus
dodge
boost
returned: 0

34:
focus
dodge
boost
returned: 0

35:
focus
dodge
boost
chakra
returned: 1, dodge

36:
focus
dodge
boost
chakra
returned: 0

37:
focus
dodge
boost
chakra
returned: 0

38:
focus
dodge
boost
chakra
returned: 0

39:
focus
dodge
boost
chakra
returned: 0

40:
focus
dodge
chakra
boost
returned: 0

same timer JA's, 1 minute, cor/sam JA combo

41:
hasso
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

42:
hasso
phantom roll
returned: 0

43:
hasso
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

44:
hasso
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

45:
hasso
phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

same timer JA's, 1 minute sam/sam JA combo

46:
hasso
seigan
returned: 0

47:
hasso
seigan
returned: 0

48:
hasso
seigan
returned: 0

49:
hasso
seigan
returned: 0

50:
hasso
seigan
returned: 0


Again, sorry for the super long post. I just copy+pasted results from notepad. If someone wants to clean it up for me better then I will edit the post with a better format. xD; I kind of got stumped after awhile on ideas to test. From just what I see here, it feels like there is a bias for phantom roll. I don't have other COR JA's(merit) and didn't think about testing with double up, but i think it would be worth trying a few times if someone has fold/snake eye at even timers, and do a few tests phantom roll/fold/snake eye or just phantom roll/oneCorJA to see if the frac's effect focuses on phantom roll, or any cor JA, more than other JA's from your subjob.

Was there anything else I might have overlooked? I know i could do with reproducing all of this -without- the frac, but for now, on to campaign!

Edited, Jul 21st 2009 2:45pm by FenrirXIII
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#14 Jul 21 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nice work there, Fen. I decided to go ahead and do a short retesting of my own. I ran a mere 15 tests, all with 3 or more JAs on cooldown, and here's what I got.

1
Scavenge
Barrage
Phantom Roll
Fold
RESET: Phantom Roll

2
Scavenge
Barrage
Phantom Roll
Fold
RESET: Phantom Roll and Barrage

3
Scavenge
Barrage
Phantom Roll
Fold
RESET: Phantom Roll

4
Scavenge
Barrage
Phantom Roll
Fold
RESET: Scavenge and Phantom Roll

5
Scavenge
Barrage
Phantom Roll
Fold
RESET: Phantom Roll

6
Snake Eye
Fold
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Fold and Barrage

7
Snake Eye
Fold
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Snake Eye and Scavenge

8
Snake Eye
Fold
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Snake and Barrage

9
Snake Eye
Fold
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Fold and Scavenge

10
Snake Eye
Fold
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Snake Eye

11
Snake Eye
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Scavenge

12
Snake Eye
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Snake Eye and Scavenge

13
Snake Eye
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Snake Eye

14
Snake Eye
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Scavenge and Barrage

15
Snake Eye
Scavenge
Barrage
RESET: Snake Eye and Barrage

That totals to 9/15 times that I got 2 JAs back. This is with 1 "Loaded Deck" merit. It might actually get even better with more merits in LD, but I'm not going to divert them from Snake Eye and Fold anytime soon. It also seems to have a preference for Phantom Roll, often at the expense of others, but the sample set is kinda small. I'm not going to bother with just 2 JAs, I'm pretty well convinced that it will never return both of them if you only have 2.

It looks like, with Loaded Deck at least, my earlier theory was correct, and I'm pretty happy with this readjustment. Without Loaded Deck, however, it seems kinda useless.
#15 Jul 26 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure I understand what's going on here, still. Can someone help a little?
Even from my tests in the post above yours Maruraba, we both have different results for the few tests I did use 3 JA's or more. Clearly, nearly all of my tests with 3 JA's on cooldown or more had almost no correlation with your tests of 3 JA's or more.

Things I do understand from the two posts though:
1.) Phantom roll has an affinity for random deal
2.) Random deal likes to fail often for me. *

*Perhaps this is due to all of my tests using RD at the top of these JA cooldowns? Would these results be different if I waited until JA timers are significantly lower?(such as waiting for focus or dodge to get under 3 or 4 minutes time remaining)

I know the name of the JA is 'RANDOM', but so far my results have been significantly less than random. I will reproduce some of what I did earlier using 3 JA's and see if the results are any different this time to indicate 'randomness'. I also have enough merits to upgrade Fold one level, so maybe using two COR JA's (phantom roll and fold) and 1 third SJ JA will have different results, although assuming RD has a bias for phantom roll, this might not be entirely accurate.

I would like to know however, why I have not experienced a double-JA charge from RD with my commodore frac on, hopefully I will see one in my next round of tests though. I don't know how to translate all the information but hopefully others can have some insight as to what all this means or what/how else I can do tests so we all know a little more about how random deal works.
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#16 Jul 26 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Even from my tests in the post above yours Maruraba, we both have different results for the few tests I did use 3 JA's or more. Clearly, nearly all of my tests with 3 JA's on cooldown or more had almost no correlation with your tests of 3 JA's or more.


I think the biggest difference is LD merits vs no LD merits in the the two results.

And Random Deal in general favors the shorter recasts.
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#17 Jul 26 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Havwnt done any significant testing but I'd say (i have one loaded deck merit), I get phantom roll back... 90% of the time maybe. It's significant because i'm surprised when it doesn't restore that. Quick Draw is also restored often.

I don't think it's exclusively based on timers but it definitely favors shorter ones. I almost always use random deal in the following way: Phantom Roll > Double-Up > bust > Fold > Random Deal. Sometimes I get fold back even though I only just used i a second earlier.

#18 Jul 26 2009 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Sometimes I get fold back even though I only just used i a second earlier.


That's rare IMO. About one in 20 RD's will give you Fold instead of PR back. I almost always get PR back in that scenario. Occ it'll proc QD if that is still awaiting a charge. Fold rarely gets proc'd.

However I commonly use RD while travelling /THF. Flee -> Fold -> RD most often recharges Flee but about 60:40 with Fold. So I think RD favors shorter recasts and innate COR abilities before subjob abilities.

Not sure what the frac does but I noticed in Dynamis tonite (first one since I got my Frac) that on one occasion RD recharged both Fold and PR.
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#19 Jul 27 2009 at 12:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'm not sure I understand what's going on here, still. Can someone help a little?
Even from my tests in the post above yours Maruraba, we both have different results for the few tests I did use 3 JA's or more. Clearly, nearly all of my tests with 3 JA's on cooldown or more had almost no correlation with your tests of 3 JA's or more.


Sure thing. Here's what I've figured out based on my testing and experience in the field:
-Commodore Frac enhances Random Deal to occasionally give back 2 JAs.
-Random Deal is affected by Loaded Deck.
-Therefore, Loaded Deck applies to the enhancement.

It might give back 2 JAs when you only have 2 on cooldown, but I haven't seen it yet. However, just as Loaded Deck works best when you have 2 or more JAs on cooldown, it appears that 2nd returned JA requires an extra one as well. It's a little bit like it treats Random Deal as going off twice. If I had more merits in Loaded Deck, I might wager that my results would have been even higher.

My advice, Fenrir, is to merit Loaded Deck. Just unlock it and you needn't do any more with it, but it's actually a great Job Trait and I'll bet if you re-ran your tests you'd see the difference immediately.
#20 Jul 27 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Alright, thanks for everything guys. I did do a few repeat tests and they were all the same as my post above. One set of 10 in particular, proves my theory that RD does not 'favor short recast timers'- but moreso favors cor JA's. I could do another set of testing now that I have fold, but basically, I did this:

1
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

2
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

3
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

4
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

5
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

6
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, dodge

7
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

8
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

9
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

10
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll


replace phantom roll with boost, an even shorter timer than phantom roll, should have same results under the theory 'RD favors smaller timers'

1
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

2
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

3
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

4
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

5
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

6
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

7
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

8
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

9
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0

10
focus dodge chakra boost
returned: 0



Boost is a substantially lower recast than Phantom roll and RD hated it's guts. In fact, RD hated all those JA's guts. Note: Commodore Frac is equipped during all 20 of these.

These final 10 were with my frac removed. Remember, I still have no LD merits for any of these.

no commodores frac

1
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 0

2
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

3
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 0

4
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

5
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

6
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

7
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

8
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

9
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll

10
focus dodge chakra phantom roll
returned: 1, phantom roll


So as far as ourselves are concerned, it appears RD likes our JA's more than other SJ JA's.

Even without the frac on, random deal was highly successful at recharging phantom roll. An important note as far as personal experience, I was in a merit party last night as RNG sub and noticed that random deal had recharged both sharpshot and barrage. This is interesting and I am tempted to repeat the test but with RNG sub and see how many it takes to get two JA's to recharge. (sharpshot scavange barrage phantom roll fold) then replace RNG sub with MNK sub and repeat to just try and get a rough idea of the 1:X ratio of how often you can expect to see two JA's recharged simultaneously.

So MY conclusion from this(rough testing) is that the Commodore Frac has a very low chance of recharging 2 JA's on its own, and that it is highly reliant on LD merit(s) to see any real benefit from it.


Dartagnann wrote:

And Random Deal in general favors the shorter recasts.

Stop saying this!! If the anecdotal evidence to this is phantom roll vs. other JA's, then it's false advertising. Phantom roll has a natural affinity to get recharged by RD. If you really want me to prove it then the best way to test it is to have SAM sub with hasso, seigan, third eye, and phantom roll and see which JA gets recharged the most often. hasso/seigan/phantom roll are on even playing fields with even timers and third eye is significantly less. If you wanna test yourself, tell me your results with and without frac. My results are more raw and accurate I feel because of having no LD merits yet(haven't upgraded it yet because I'm not sure I feel like I'm done doing tests, and I know that 10 of each is a very small group for conclusiveness..)

I'm not trying to be rude, just asking politely that this stop being said since the only testing i've seen so far is in direct contrast to this statement. ^.^b Lets figure it out! It's FAR from being truely random. It's becoming more and more clear that atleast 1 LD upgrade is the most powerful 3 merit points you can spend on your COR specific merits.


Edited, Jul 28th 2009 11:09am by FenrirXIII
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