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Gave up on yet another JP party; ;Follow

#1 Jul 17 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Invited to a JP pt, not uncommon. This time the set up was me(cor/rng) with pld/war, rdm, brd, drk/nin and mnk/nin.

With 3 refreshes I used tab key to try and spell out that /nin was not needed( I wanted to save a few bullets a fight with good dd) but the response was a /tell from the party leader asking me (support job) (ninja) (do you have it?).

I know JP love to give their healers a break even at the cost of xp/hr, but cmon.. 3 refresh and a rdm still needs a shadow pt NOT in merit pt (lvl 45ish)
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#2 Jul 18 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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I don't get it lol. /nin is so lame on birds. /sam is actually better because it nullifies flurry completely when third eye is up. I don't think they are giving their healer a break, more like giving them a license to go afk for an hour or fall asleep at their keyboard. I know healing is an often boring, thankless job but my god. Cultural differences are what they are, I guess.
#3 Jul 18 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dryr wrote:
Invited to a JP pt, not uncommon. This time the set up was me(cor/rng) with pld/war, rdm, brd, drk/nin and mnk/nin.

With 3 refreshes I used tab key to try and spell out that /nin was not needed( I wanted to save a few bullets a fight with good dd) but the response was a /tell from the party leader asking me (support job) (ninja) (do you have it?).

I know JP love to give their healers a break even at the cost of xp/hr, but cmon.. 3 refresh and a rdm still needs a shadow pt NOT in merit pt (lvl 45ish)


just typical noobs; nationality has nothing to do with it. NA/EU sometimes believe every melee must /NIN at all levels too. it's just inexperience and stupidity.

JP are often more cautious than NA/EU, more often than not to their party's detriment. however, i've never encountered a 2 mage + PLD JP party that had its DDs come /NIN at any pre-70~ level, and my insomnia has me partying with 5 JP members pretty often. i've also never had complaints when asking JP members to sub /DD pre-70 in parties with a tank and 2 mages.

you just got unlucky and met a noob.

edit: it's also possible that your server has /NIN trends, which would be unfortunate. all /NIN pseudo-burn (or "actual" burn i guess) pre-75 and outside of ronfaure[s] can be fine, but generally only when healing and tanking is insufficient.

Edited, Jul 18th 2009 11:22pm by milich
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#4 Jul 19 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Default
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So LOTS AND LOTS OF MP REFRESH, a paladin(ideally a strong powerful hate holding tank) and the melees completely gimp their damage to save a little MP.....

This isn't that bad though. The only thing WAR gives you before 50 is Berserk, which is 25%ATT DEF-25%. Your Chaos Roll will give them around 25-40%+att.

A good Monk with good gear(brownbelt, okotes, right food) will be destroying **** he doesn't really need that extra 25%.

Chaos/Hunters/MinuetIII/March/Haste Over 100+ATT, 30-40ish ACC, Haste+20%......poor paladin trying to keep hate off a MNK that level that uses berserk on top of that.

Oh and the DRK.....with NIN sj he can use his hate generating abilities without dying......

So its not as bad as you thought.......but still......I know I've been in a JP WHM RDM BRD SAM/DNC MNK/NIN and me as NIN/WAR before at lvl70......why the **** didn't the samurai just SJ /THF and plant a 1k WS on me every minute IDK.......and why did we need a WHM......
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#5 Jul 19 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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HunterGamma wrote:
So LOTS AND LOTS OF MP REFRESH, a paladin(ideally a strong powerful hate holding tank) and the melees completely gimp their damage to save a little MP.....

This isn't that bad though. The only thing WAR gives you before 50 is Berserk, which is 25%ATT DEF-25%. Your Chaos Roll will give them around 25-40%+att.

A good Monk with good gear(brownbelt, okotes, right food) will be destroying sh*t, he doesn't really need that extra 25%.

Chaos/Hunters/MinuetIII/March/Haste Over 100+ATT, 30-40ish ACC, Haste+20%......poor paladin trying to keep hate off a MNK that level that uses berserk on top of that.
Eh I've done both PLD and MNK through 45's and Monk had all of that gear, plus Pizza, and /war. Wasn't that amazing. I remember on PLD I had such ridiculous hate at those levels I had a Monk doing Raging Fists followed by a THF SATA+Viper Bite'ing onto him for some sorta skillchain, and I still managed to fight for hate.

tl;dr /nin is looool at 45. Moreso on DRK which doesn't even have much at 45.
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#6 Jul 19 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
HunterGamma wrote:
So LOTS AND LOTS OF MP REFRESH, a paladin(ideally a strong powerful hate holding tank) and the melees completely gimp their damage to save a little MP.....

This isn't that bad though. The only thing WAR gives you before 50 is Berserk, which is 25%ATT DEF-25%. Your Chaos Roll will give them around 25-40%+att.

A good Monk with good gear(brownbelt, okotes, right food) will be destroying sh*t, he doesn't really need that extra 25%.

Chaos/Hunters/MinuetIII/March/Haste Over 100+ATT, 30-40ish ACC, Haste+20%......poor paladin trying to keep hate off a MNK that level that uses berserk on top of that.
Eh I've done both PLD and MNK through 45's and Monk had all of that gear, plus Pizza, and /war. Wasn't that amazing. I remember on PLD I had such ridiculous hate at those levels I had a Monk doing Raging Fists followed by a THF SATA+Viper Bite'ing onto him for some sorta skillchain, and I still managed to fight for hate.

tl;dr /nin is looool at 45. Moreso on DRK which doesn't even have much at 45.


while i disagree on belittling MNK/WAR damage if you're not overhunting and you're eating properly, i think your post sort of gets to the heart of what was wrong with the OP's party. a good PLD should be a hate monster by then; even if DDs manage to pull hate, they won't keep it long, so the idea of gimping everyone in the party to "save MP" is pretty silly.

again though, i'm sure it had nothing to do with it being a JP PT with JP norms. it's not the norm to party PLD support support DD/NIN*3 at any level, for any nationality.
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#7Esoa, Posted: Jul 19 2009 at 10:14 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why do people complain about party composition pre-75?
#8 Jul 19 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Esoa wrote:
Why do people complain about party composition pre-75?


probably the same reason they don't buy accounts.
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#9 Jul 19 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So LOTS AND LOTS OF MP REFRESH, a paladin(ideally a strong powerful hate holding tank) and the melees completely gimp their damage to save a little MP.....

This isn't that bad though. The only thing WAR gives you before 50 is Berserk, which is 25%ATT DEF-25%. Your Chaos Roll will give them around 25-40%+att.

A good Monk with good gear(brownbelt, okotes, right food) will be destroying sh*t, he doesn't really need that extra 25%.

Chaos/Hunters/MinuetIII/March/Haste Over 100+ATT, 30-40ish ACC, Haste+20%......poor paladin trying to keep hate off a MNK that level that uses berserk on top of that.

Oh and the DRK.....with NIN sj he can use his hate generating abilities without dying......

So its not as bad as you thought.......but still......I know I've been in a JP WHM RDM BRD SAM/DNC MNK/NIN and me as NIN/WAR before at lvl70......why the @#%^ didn't the samurai just SJ /THF and plant a 1k WS on me every minute IDK.......and why did we need a WHM......


Except that extra 25% att stacks with all of those buffs. Sure he doesn't need that extra att but it helps.
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#10 Jul 19 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe instead of those "new player/how to start playing" guides SE made, they should make a "making meripo for dummies" guide. I have nothing against being cautious or even "overly safe" but that pt set-up is just overkill in that direction.

The thing is the type of pt set up most of us would advocate is FAR from unsafe. RDM/WHM, BRD/NIN, COR/WAR /RNG /DNC w/e, and 3 2h DDs/SAM (or SAM/WAR or /DRG) is perfectly fine on birds. Nothing risky or unsafe about it. Everyone who is either pulling or DDing has a form of protection except the COR who should be smart enough to play in a way to not be an MP sink and keep the sushi he'd need to be effective also.

I think people just need to trust seigan + third eye more. Yes, occasionally it can **** you over with just 1 anticipate. On average though, I think you're getting the same amount of protection as you would from utsusemi (cept where magic dmg or TP moves that shadows absobr are involved). The real bonus imo is that third eye cant be interrupted so theres absolutely no worries about ichi recast or anything like that.
#11 Jul 19 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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If a COR is not pulling the birds, he doesn't need shadows. You won't be an mp sink unless your melee are seriously gimped. If you are being a MP sink then adjust your playstyle to only slugshot at 25-30% of mobs health bar.

/NIN doesn't help you much when you aren't pulling. Sure you might be able to WS a bit sooner, but all that's going to do is run you out of sushi quicker lol. ANd shadows won't eat a pecking fury.

Whenever a party asks me to come /NIN or /WHM, I'll come /DNC. That way when MP is fine and everyone realizes it I can go into attack mode with box step/ desparate flourish and more ACC than /NIN offers.
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#12Esoa, Posted: Jul 19 2009 at 11:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm still not sure what any of this has to do with merit parties, since the OP is talking about a party in the 40's. You know, where most people are happy enough to get a RDM + PLD let alone RDM + PLD + BRD. I guess some people are never satisfied. Incoming complaint about them using Spike Necklace instead of Peacock Charm?
#13 Jul 20 2009 at 2:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Esoa wrote:
I'm still not sure what any of this has to do with merit parties, since the OP is talking about a party in the 40's. You know, where most people are happy enough to get a RDM + PLD let alone RDM + PLD + BRD. I guess some people are never satisfied. Incoming complaint about them using Spike Necklace instead of Peacock Charm?


what a stupid post. the point is that there's lots of healing, so /NIN wasn't necessary. that makes the RDM + PLD + BRD all less of a good thing. how could you make such a ridiculous post? what is wrong with you?
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#14 Jul 20 2009 at 6:46 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
Esoa wrote:
I'm still not sure what any of this has to do with merit parties, since the OP is talking about a party in the 40's. You know, where most people are happy enough to get a RDM + PLD let alone RDM + PLD + BRD. I guess some people are never satisfied. Incoming complaint about them using Spike Necklace instead of Peacock Charm?


what a stupid post. the point is that there's lots of healing, so /NIN wasn't necessary. that makes the RDM + PLD + BRD all less of a good thing. how could you make such a ridiculous post? what is wrong with you?


You are correct, but please reign in the brow beating.
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