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#1 Jul 10 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a new Cor, just hit 75 earlier this week, and I apologize if this question has been covered before. My question is: When is Samurai Roll more useful in merit parties than other DD rolls?
More and more parties ask for it and from my understanding it's useless unless it turns a 6-hit into a 5 hit build.


From my understanding with full store tp merits it takes an additional +34 store tp for a SAM with a 450 delay weapon (which includes the 2 most used GK, Hagun and Ominaru)

So basically, I would have to roll a 2, 10 or 11 in order to make Samurai Roll even worth it. Thats a 3/11 chance or roughly a 30% chance of this roll being useful.

Now if the SAM is a using a 480 polearm with a 5-hit build already then this roll would not be able drop it to a 4 hit build correct? Making this roll totally useless.

Sorry for all the questions any but any help would be appreciated.
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#2 Jul 10 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Depends on what gear they are wearing as far as Store TP is concerned.

It's too finicky to fuss about so I typicaly use SAM roll 1) when I'm soloing /DNC in campaign, 2) when I have a DNC in the party and a SAM, 3) when the SAM's tell me it will lower them to a 5 hit build based on their knowledge of their gear, store TP merits and the effects of the roll.

I'm not going to calculate it out for them. It's easier to just roll something else like Fighters or Hunters (or more often, Corsairs roll)
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#3 Jul 10 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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What Dartagnann said except:

Quote:
It's too finicky to fuss about so I typicaly use SAM roll 1) when I'm soloing /DNC in campaign, 2) when I have a DNC or a RNG in the party and a SAM, 3) when the SAM's tell me it will lower them to a 5 hit build based on their knowledge of their gear, store TP merits and the effects of the roll.


Double attack does squat for a RNG, and I know they love 20+ TP returns. Even if I only have one RNG, I would rather do a buff that benefits everyone and not just melees.

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#4 Jul 10 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Filian wrote:
What Dartagnann said except:

Quote:
It's too finicky to fuss about so I typicaly use SAM roll 1) when I'm soloing /DNC in campaign, 2) when I have a DNC or a RNG in the party and a SAM, 3) when the SAM's tell me it will lower them to a 5 hit build based on their knowledge of their gear, store TP merits and the effects of the roll.


Double attack does squat for a RNG, and I know they love 20+ TP returns. Even if I only have one RNG, I would rather do a buff that benefits everyone and not just melees.


Honestly, if I ever end up in a party with a RNG, I'll go Hunter's if I use a second DD roll. That means everyone will have through the roof Acc, and can go with more haste or damage oriented gear in place of Acc, eat meat, etc. Chaos/Hunter's still helps everyone. I do agree that Fighter's with a RNG in party isn't as good.

My general thought process:

DD Roll #1, almost always Chaos.

DD Roll #2:

- If SAM + DNC in party, certainly Samurai

- If WAR + other 2handers (DRK, DRG, SAM), Fighter's

- If no SAM and not a lot of 2 handers, Hunter's

- If SAM and my judgment based on the situation tells me it can be useful, Samurai (e.g. SAM tells me it will lower them to a 5-hit build, another job that skews toward WS damage like RNG, THF, DRG wants it)

- If Acc is at a premium for whatever reason, or additional Acc can allow the melees to more comfortably eat meat, Hunter's

OR...

Corsair's.

Oh, Samurai is also killer for breaking weapon latents. Obvious a bit, but yeah. Works on NPCs too, I soloed my Gun and Dagger of Trials latents that way in Kuftal Tunnel with my mid-60s level Fierce Attacker NPC opening random SCs for me. Dancer's + Samurai, occasional emergency cures with /DNC.
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#5 Jul 10 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I do pretty much that..and with the fact I have my Relic Hat (even if it's not 100% proc rate) I just alternate in SAM roll. Even more so with Snake Eye merited.
#6 Jul 10 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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The thing is, you also have to remember the other melee in pt. Maybe SAM roll won't do anything for the SAM itself, but what about the other DD? I've seen it plenty where the SAM roll doesn't drop the SAM another hit build, but it DOES for a WAR or DRK, or even DRG.

Most of my merit pts of late have been sam, war, drk, or drg for dd, usually with sam and war always and rotating the others. Sam + War roll in this setup with a bard doing march + madrigal is what our group has found to be best combo (at least for us)

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 7:19pm by Lucavern
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#7 Jul 13 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know all the info. All I know is i've hit a max of 25TP a shot on my cor and have had warriors and dragoons claim getting around 40TP return on a multihit WS. If that isn't good, I don't know what is.
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#8 Jul 13 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I joined a party on my MNK once where the COR was giving SAM roll. Standard 2 buffer, 1 healer, 3 DD party. DDs were myself and two SAMs. I got a 66TP return on Asuran Fists with Footwork up.



Edited, Jul 13th 2009 4:15pm by DubiousNinja
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#9 Jul 14 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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you gotta feel for what rolls you wanna throw out.

I've had BRD COR pts and COR COR pts, and some where im the only upkeep job, all at bird camps (and ppl say odin is overcrowded)

Chaos for all pts DD's reguardless of situation

in BRD COR pts
if we have SAMs but not WARs Samurai's roll
if we have WARs but not SAMs Fighter's Roll
If we have both, Fighter's roll

my mathematical reasoning for this is, i think double attack is cooler than store tp

double COR pts (lolz)
1:Chaos
2:Hunters
3:Fighters / Samurai's (see BRD COR pts)
4:throw out other #3 roll and if we run outta birds to kill, switch it to COR roll

as for single COR pts
1: Chaos
2: Fighters / Samurai's (see BRD COR pts)
2*: if the dd's are still having a hard time hitting they can have hunter's. I prefer hunters most of the time though because it helps out multi-hit WS's of which most jobs use at 75. with the exclusion of PUP and SAM(with no polearm).

And yes i do invite PUP's into my merit pts whenever possible. Armor Peircer (Sharpshot Automaton, WS around 75) hits for maybe 1.5k - 1.8k per shot which is pretty stupidly crazy.

all in all i dont think there is really a set rolling scheme set in stone for COR, as long as your not throwing out BRD and PLD rolls you should be ok..

I throw out random rolls in about 30% of my pts just for sh*ts. have fun with it!
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Armant wrote:
No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

Omegag wrote:
Cor should just be using dice rolls and helping with cures anyway

Dynamis Member while prepping for Dynamis Qufim wrote:
Is this where treasure hunter feet drop?

#10 Jul 14 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Default
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I use samurai roll a lot in Salvage, but almost never in Merits.

In Merits, my preference for the best EXP for ALL is corsairs with Luzaf's + evokers without + chaos without.

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#11 Jul 14 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Tarqs wrote:
as for single COR pts
1: Chaos
2: Fighters / Samurai's (see BRD COR pts)
2*: if the dd's are still having a hard time hitting they can have hunter's. I prefer hunters most of the time though because it helps out multi-hit WS's of which most jobs use at 75. with the exclusion of PUP and SAM(with no polearm).

And yes i do invite PUP's into my merit pts whenever possible. Armor Peircer (Sharpshot Automaton, WS around 75) hits for maybe 1.5k - 1.8k per shot which is pretty stupidly crazy.


Preach it, brutha! (PUP is my "true" main, COR my 2nd place). It's true though, a good PUP with Sharpshot frame is definitely a {Bird Killer}.

But by the way, PUP's best WS (Stringing Pummel, the Nyzul WS - essentially PUP's Asuran Fists) is indeed a multi-hit that they LOOOOVE accuracy for. I know a lot of PUP don't have it and need to rely on Howling Fist, but for those PUP who do have Stringing unlocked... they'll love you for Hunter's Roll.

I personally would want Chaos/Hunter's for almost any situation on PUP where I'm punching stuff. PUP never scoffs at more Acc due to working against their low H2H skill caps. PUP gets less benefit from SAM roll than most melee, since the damage is split between master and puppet, and puppet doesn't benefit at all from non-pet rolls. The master's WS alone is far less important than on a lot of jobs like SAM, WAR, DRG, MNK, etc. Same deal for Fighter's Roll - Double Attack is certainly better than nothing, but not as big a deal for PUP's comparatively low single hit damage/TP than it is for the 2-handers, and getting the master to 100tp faster is also less of a concern as described above..
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#12 Jul 14 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't know all the info. All I know is i've hit a max of 25TP a shot on my cor and have had warriors and dragoons claim getting around 40TP return on a multihit WS. If that isn't good, I don't know what is.


I think this is why a lot of players use SAM roll. It has effects you can see like Chaos. Hunter's acc bonus reall isn't that noticeable nor is Fighters in the midst of a fight. But TP is readily visible as is your ATT numbers.
So SAM and Chaos stroke the epeen more even if they don't necessarily improve kill speed more than other rolls.

But logistically speaking, if SAM roll doesn't lower your number of attack rounds to 100 tp, its value is only modest. Firing off most WS's at 115 TP isnt' substantially different than firing off at 100 TP. All Hunters has to do is lead to one less miss per 6 hits and it has more value than SAM.

SOmetimes it would be nicer to be a BRD where you only have 3 buffs to worry about for melee and 1 for mages. Decision making is so much easier. With COR it only is smooth when the party setup is good. Then you go Evokers COrsairs and Chaos and have fun. But when you are trying to optomize a so-so party with rolls it can be a challenge to pick the ones that will best suit the party's needs.

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#13 Jul 14 2009 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
But logistically speaking, if SAM roll doesn't lower your number of attack rounds to 100 tp, its value is only modest.


Caveat: unless you're using your tp for dances. DNC and /DNC will get use out of Store TP regardless of "X hit to 100tp" builds.

Quote:
All Hunters has to do is lead to one less miss per 6 hits and it has more value than SAM.


Doesn't sound like much, but if people are already parsing 90%+ Acc...
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#14 Jul 14 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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If people are already parsing 90% acc no decent cor would even consider Hunters roll in that situation... Kinda pointless as an example.

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#15 Jul 14 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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kidcampbellkid wrote:
So basically, I would have to roll a 2, 10 or 11 in order to make Samurai Roll even worth it. Thats a 3/11 chance or roughly a 30% chance of this roll being useful.


Slightly off-topic, but that is horrible statistical analysis. This is not a single roll situation of values 1-11, but very likely a situation of multiple rolls. Not to mention there is an aspect of intelligent choice; for example, there is no reason to EVER have a total of 1/3/4/5 for SAM roll.
#16 Jul 15 2009 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Caveat: unless you're using your tp for dances. DNC and /DNC will get use out of Store TP regardless of "X hit to 100tp" builds.


Which is why I said in my original post that SAM roll is useful when there are DNC's in the party or when I'm COR/DNC. But as a pure melee roll it would need to make a difference in the players attack rounds to 100 tp to be useful which is why I generally only roll it if the melee tell me they would get 1 less attack round with more store TP.

Just for kicks I tried alternating SAM, Fighters and Hunters in a Bird party that wasn't so hot last night. As usual, the Hunters roll got us infinite chains, whereas SAM and FIghters couldn't. So many DD out there really don't gear well for TP gain, don't eat crab sushi, etc that acc still is an issue even for some two handers. Sad really.
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#17 Jul 17 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
tarqs wrote:

as for single COR pts
1: Chaos
2: Fighters / Samurai's (see BRD COR pts)
2*: if the dd's are still having a hard time hitting they can have hunter's. I prefer hunters most of the time though because it helps out multi-hit WS's of which most jobs use at 75. with the exclusion of PUP and SAM(with no polearm).

And yes i do invite PUP's into my merit pts whenever possible. Armor Peircer (Sharpshot Automaton, WS around 75) hits for maybe 1.5k - 1.8k per shot which is pretty stupidly crazy.



Preach it, brutha! (PUP is my "true" main, COR my 2nd place). It's true though, a good PUP with Sharpshot frame is definitely a {Bird Killer}.

But by the way, PUP's best WS (Stringing Pummel, the Nyzul WS - essentially PUP's Asuran Fists) is indeed a multi-hit that they LOOOOVE accuracy for. I know a lot of PUP don't have it and need to rely on Howling Fist, but for those PUP who do have Stringing unlocked... they'll love you for Hunter's Roll.

I personally would want Chaos/Hunter's for almost any situation on PUP where I'm punching stuff. PUP never scoffs at more Acc due to working against their low H2H skill caps. PUP gets less benefit from SAM roll than most melee, since the damage is split between master and puppet, and puppet doesn't benefit at all from non-pet rolls. The master's WS alone is far less important than on a lot of jobs like SAM, WAR, DRG, MNK, etc. Same deal for Fighter's Roll - Double Attack is certainly better than nothing, but not as big a deal for PUP's comparatively low single hit damage/TP than it is for the 2-handers, and getting the master to 100tp faster is also less of a concern as described above..


I've been in 2 other pts so far (and love building these pts btw) that we had the COR use BST and PUP rolls.

one was PLD WHM COR PUP PUP PUP (lolz) at level sync 46(i think) in quicksand caves. my Arcaballista was hitting for like 220 on spiders was a fun time

the other was:
PLD PUP BST COR BRD WHM level sync at 65 at mount zhalyom.

but yeah if your # of pet jobs make up all the DDs you may want to consider pet rolls. i dunno bout drg's though cause their pets dont make up a majority of damage in a pt, so its your call
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Armant wrote:
No DRG for party, camp spot site with 30 dmg, but is it for 20 like 30 dmg when you no hit be it for dd, for 30 dmg instead? or half is 10 for 20 dmg?

Omegag wrote:
Cor should just be using dice rolls and helping with cures anyway

Dynamis Member while prepping for Dynamis Qufim wrote:
Is this where treasure hunter feet drop?

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