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Reminder to 75 COR poseters re: dd corFollow

#52 Jul 08 2009 at 6:23 AM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:

COR/WHM is a perfectly fine choice. It however is not the best choice.


Ftfy

(Although I do go /whm to Salvage runs.)
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#53 Jul 08 2009 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Any party that can get chain 6 or 7 can in theory get chain 6 or 700. The most formidible obstacle to any party's chain has more to do with the fortitude of your bladder than the awesomeness of your COR. Good pulling is crucial too. Other than that yeah, pretty much any 6 gimps can chain infinitely, again in theory.

PS. Still not sure why we needed a new thread for this.


Edited, Jul 8th 2009 8:16pm by Filian
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#54 Jul 08 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Default
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I prefer /WHM over /DNC in merit parties, but only because I don't go full-on mage with it. I worked hard on my melee setup and I'm **** well going to use it. I pop sushi, I manipulate rolls so that I end up with Hunter+Evoker, and I stab the mob with my Joyeuse. If someone needs a cure, /ma "Cure III" <stpc>. I leveled DNC to 75 and I know I'm **** good at curing while meleeing.

With /WHM, I get to keep all my TP for Slugshot while still curing as long as I get Refresh.
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#55 Jul 08 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't think you or any other COR "needs" to spend 100k per level but why would I want a COR over a BRD if you're going to focus on buffing?


Because BRDs are not exactly very available and people will take what they can get? (Not that CORs are very available either, but it is another option)

Not to mention the fact that BRD+COR is generally more desirable than BRD+BRD, if we're talking about 2x support pts


Quote:
COR DD is nothing like RDM DD,


It is in the sense that nobody else cares if you can do it. Which was my point.

It does not change the fact that when my RDM gets invited it's because they wanted heals/Haste and maybe Refresh, just like how when a COR gets invited it's because they want his buffs and maybe a puller if they are BRD-less and desperate.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 5:43pm by Fynlar
#56 Jul 08 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seitekifu wrote:
I prefer /WHM over /DNC in merit parties, but only because I don't go full-on mage with it. I worked hard on my melee setup and I'm **** well going to use it. I pop sushi, I manipulate rolls so that I end up with Hunter+Evoker, and I stab the mob with my Joyeuse. If someone needs a cure, /ma "Cure III" <stpc>. I leveled DNC to 75 and I know I'm **** good at curing while meleeing.

With /WHM, I get to keep all my TP for Slugshot while still curing as long as I get Refresh.

So I'm guessing you don't use Corsair's Roll?

The advantage of /DNC over /WHM, in your case, is that you get to keep 2 DD rolls (or 1 DD roll + Corsair's).

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:12pm by redvenomweb
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#57 Jul 08 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
It is in the sense that nobody else cares if you can do it. Which was my point.

The good (smart) players do care about COR damage, as Sandmasterr explained earlier in this thread. Many just want their ego's boosted by rolls, and yes, couldn't care less what the COR was doing as long as they look better. I avoid those players as they're not only annoying to play with, but they're generally inferior to those that actually realize the reality of what is happening.

I don't understand the point in continually stating that some only care about rolls on a forum. This is universally understood; stating it over and over serves what purpose, exactly?
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#58 Jul 08 2009 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest, I haven't been COR75 for very long. I haven't had much luck with the DDs in my parties so I haven't been able to get a good Corsair's roll party.
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#59 Jul 08 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand the point in continually stating that some only care about rolls on a forum. This is universally understood; stating it over and over serves what purpose, exactly?


If it is so understood, why does this thread/topic continually come up as often as it does?
#60 Jul 08 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand the point in continually stating that some only care about rolls on a forum. This is universally understood; stating it over and over serves what purpose, exactly?


If it is so understood, why does this thread/topic continually come up as often as it does?


people can't keep ideas straight. throw "people don't care about your DD" and "COR can be a good DD" and "play however you want" and "meriting is easy" etc all together in a pot, and perceived contradictions will start a flame war.
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#61 Jul 08 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand the point in continually stating that some only care about rolls on a forum. This is universally understood; stating it over and over serves what purpose, exactly?


If it is so understood, why does this thread/topic continually come up as often as it does?


Because only a certain percentage of people are smart?
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#62 Jul 09 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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This thread makes my head hurt! It is obvious to me that people are still ignorant about COR and think infinite chain = best xp eva.

Some people seem to think a COR's dmg is lost in the mix and limits of repop timers. I mostly merit with friends and when they do pickup parties and get a COR who stands around with his thumb up his *** only rolling they whine to me. So yes people do notice IF they know what they are looking for. Just an FYI I parse 19-20% in parties normally and those parties pull 29-32k/hr. SO my damage is not lost in the mix of everything else.
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#63 Jul 09 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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There was another thread about how STR, AGI, ratt and gorgets each influenced slug shot's dmg. That thread, combined with me finally getting a parser and seeing i was landing 95%+ of my slugs influenced me to pile on STR and finally go /war to merits. Needless to say my dmg was taken to an entirely new lvl.


I would like to see this thread if someone can provide a link to it?

I recently hit a few damage caps on my slugs and detonators and would like to know what i can mix and match for my WS-SLug and WS-Detonator macros to up my game. Much appreciated if you can find it for me :)

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#64 Jul 09 2009 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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People sure do forget what fun is.

Yeh COR is expensive,
yeh COR can DD
Yeh COR is looked as a support.

If you look at what it is and what people see it as your not going to have much fun. If you are leveling or thinking about leveling it and are worried "Am I going to be useful or am I going to do enough damage?" then your in the wrong boat.

If you dont have enough friends or LS mates who will let you come as a job because you want to play it then you need more friends or a different LS. You should play the job that you have fun on, not so you can find out what other people think.
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#65 Jul 09 2009 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
Silvra wrote:
what fun is.


Fun is relative

Silvra wrote:
If you are leveling or thinking about leveling it and are worried "Am I going to be useful or am I going to do enough damage?" then your in the wrong boat.


Put this in the sticky, every COR needs to read that before they hit level 20

Silvra wrote:
You should play the job that you have fun on, not so you can find out what other people think.


Here is imo the right thing, if you are say a WAR using a GS or a COR meleeing with two trailers kukri, which is not uncommon and that is fun to the person doing it.

1) Get out
2) Solo, campaign, team up with friends to kill something
3) Do not say its wrong or elitist or rude and so on

If you come to a merit pt, the people there want one thing, XP, if you feel the need to hinder that by having fun in a less efficient way, there is nothing wrong with that but as they say, you don't have to go home but you cant stay here.

Most people do not want to merit with people who rather have fun via lowering XP, generating issues, and causing them to have to take longer to get XP they are there for in the first place.

Edited, Jul 9th 2009 7:00pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#66 Jul 09 2009 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I would like to see this thread if someone can provide a link to it?

I recently hit a few damage caps on my slugs and detonators and would like to know what i can mix and match for my WS-SLug and WS-Detonator macros to up my game. Much appreciated if you can find it for me :)


here
#67Esoa, Posted: Jul 09 2009 at 6:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Um, the first BRD does double march.
#68 Jul 09 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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Esoa wrote:
Zagen wrote:
Esoa wrote:
Why on earth would you want a 2nd BRD instead of a COR who isn't going to DD? COR buffs are better than BRD buffs except for double haste on well geared players.

2x March is reason enough to take a 2nd BRD over a buff only COR to me, add in a higher accuracy and better recast sleep than Light Shot, better recast Dispel, and it starts to add up. My point is a COR needs to do a lot more than "just buff" to be of higher value than a 2nd BRD.


Um, the first BRD does double march.

A BRD puller can sleep just fine so you only need backup sleeps and if you're at Colibri you don't even need that. What exactly do you need to dispel that you can't do between dark shot, the puller's dispel, and the RDM's dispel. Heck if you need dispel so badly you can go COR/SCH (and hey, you get some extra sleeps then too!).


BRD + BRD is fine, but the idea that 2x minuet > COR buffs is... let's just say that this is one of those arguments that gets decided by 2 minutes worth of math, and buff-only COR is the blaringly obvious better choice.

for one, chaos roll gives more ATT than minIV, and minIII increasing party damage enough to get you more XP than COR roll is preposterous. i'm fairly sure WAR roll, SAM roll, and **** probably even THF roll stomp minIII. we could talk about madrigal and actually do some math, but it reallllly shouldn't be necessary...
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#69Esoa, Posted: Jul 09 2009 at 7:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Wow 20%! Why bother bringing any other DD than COR? You could have every DD roll on you then imagine your damage output!
#70 Jul 09 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:

Most people do not want to merit with people who rather have fun via lowering XP, generating issues, and causing them to have to take longer to get XP they are there for in the first place.


When it comes to COR, you're wrong about this. As others have stated over and over most people do not care what playstyle you adopt with COR as long as a) you buff them and b) you are doing something, anything in the time you aren't buffing.
#71 Jul 09 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Esoa wrote:
Wow 20%! Why bother bringing any other DD than COR? You could have every DD roll on you then imagine your damage output!


You should just leave now and stop making yourself look bad. I do not know what else to say to you other than insults so I will not say anymore. No seriously please leave.
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#72 Jul 09 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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DarcAtvar wrote:
Esoa wrote:
Wow 20%! Why bother bringing any other DD than COR? You could have every DD roll on you then imagine your damage output!


You should just leave now and stop making yourself look bad. I do not know what else to say to you other than insults so I will not say anymore. No seriously please leave.


really this thread should just stop. can i summarize it?

1) COR can DD, well.

2) COR buffs are great.

3) COR buffs are good enough to justify a COR slot in PT.

4) logic lesson time guys! (3) does not entail that you shouldn't DD on COR.

5) no one cares how big your epeen is.

6) COR DD is expensive.

7) you get to decide what's "ok" to do in a party, and other people get to not party with you if they disagree.

8) it's easy to get a lot of XP in ffxi.

9) only ELITE PLAYERS like carrilei or whatever get 40k/hr.

10) if a list gets to 10, we have too much going on and flames will ensue.

---

if anyone wants to continue the list, go for it, but note that (10) entails that if you actually try to post to continue this thread, you'll get in an argument.
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#73 Jul 09 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
9) only ELITE PLAYERS like carrilei (not milich) or whatever get 40k/hr realize that judging a merit party by "infinite chains" is laughable.

FTFY.
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#74 Jul 09 2009 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Wow 20%! Why bother bringing any other DD than COR? You could have every DD roll on you then imagine your damage output!


I've often wondered what a 3 COR 1 BRD 1 DD 1 RDM party could accomplish.
Chaos, March x2, Fighters, Rogues, SAM, Hunters, COR roll on all the frontliners would be fun to watch. Doubt it would outdo another setup but it still would be pretty cool on birds.
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#75 Jul 09 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Carrilei wrote:
milich wrote:
9) only ELITE PLAYERS like carrilei (not milich) or whatever get 40k/hr realize that judging a merit party by "infinite chains" is laughable.

FTFY.


11) only people who can do elementary school math don't let their jaw hit the floor when their 20k/hr party becomes 22k/hr.
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#76 Jul 10 2009 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
Esoa wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:

Most people do not want to merit with people who rather have fun via lowering XP, generating issues, and causing them to have to take longer to get XP they are there for in the first place.

most people do not care what playstyle you adopt with COR as long as a) you buff them and b) you are doing something, anything in the time you aren't buffing.


Half true, bit fallacious, and you are not wrong in what you said, but since you quoted that people do not want to merit with those who lower xp, which makes no sense to want unless it is one of those merit pts my friends try to have me make, even then I do not want to, but I digress.

Bottom line, something said endlessly, there is more to COR than just rolling and not DDing.

If someone invites a COR only to roll:

1) The person does not understand COR or the meaning of hybrid beyond conserving gas
2) Might as well only get two BRDs, **** have one sub COR
3) Make sure its a JP COR/WHM
4) Wonder why you want to settle for less XP while your COR stands there
5) Comfort said self by saying that you are not an elitist and it is just a game!

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 5:15am by BelenosSwiftWater
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#77 Jul 10 2009 at 2:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Seitekifu wrote:
I pop sushi, I manipulate rolls so that I end up with Hunter+Evoker, and I stab the mob with my Joyeuse.


I don't understand how ppl like you have red names. Your basically revolving every merit pty you have around YOU.

Seitekifu wrote:
I worked hard on my melee setup and I'm **** well going to use it.


If you really have worked at it, why are you gimping your pty with Hunters roll? a decent/good setup will only need sushi. The Top class cor's can do w/o any additional acc buff (from food or support) for meripo's.

If your meripo's consist of Pup's Nin's Thf's Blu's or really gimp Mnk's, then the Hunter's roll (or Madrigal) is needed (note again, uber Nin's, Thf's and Blu's don't need acc support).

Seitekifu wrote:

To be honest, I haven't been COR75 for very long. I haven't had much luck with the DDs in my parties so I haven't been able to get a good Corsair's roll party.


Go to your merit pty's ready for DD (I'd recomend /RNG in your instance) or to pull /NIN (if you have a BRD, this isn't needed) or /DNC - but your giving up a lot of DD potential with this sub job. so make sure you pick the right sj choice based on your pty setup.

AND - stop manipulating pty's so YOU can get Hunters roll. NONE of your rolls are about you, they are about the good of the pty.

EDIT: the only 'manipulating' you should do, is making sure the roll you want most, is last in the roll rotation your doing (usually COR's roll in meripo's)

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 10:08am by Sandmasterr
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#78 Jul 10 2009 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand the point in continually stating that some only care about rolls on a forum. This is universally understood; stating it over and over serves what purpose, exactly?


If it is so understood, why does this thread/topic continually come up as often as it does?

I think I could've phrased my point better.. Why should we focus on what the sh*tty players think?

It's like intentionally lowering one's IQ, and wasting time. {No thanks.}

Edited, Jul 10th 2009 6:56am by Carrilei
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#79 Jul 10 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
Instead of applauding mediocrity, we could actually... oh, I don't know... use what SE gave us?


attn: sh*tty players
Shoot your gun, or go play bard.

I don't understand why this thread is as long as it is. Do people think that a 30k+ xp/hr party is unrealistic?

Considering at bird camp, a slug shot takes a bird from 30~40% hp to 0... and with a joyeuse, even with other excellent DDs, you should have enough for a WS every 2~3 birds (depending on how many WS the other DDs fire off).

But the lazy cheap cor's are right, having the ability to finish off a mob sitting at 30~40% hp is too expensive therefore not required.
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#80 Jul 10 2009 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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The reason this thread is so long (and so many more before it) is because seem to lack the ability to interpret English properly. I say COR should DD but we won't or shouldn't ever beat a real DD; Someone takes offense that I told them they're stupid. Milich says a COR DDing won't simply turn a 15k/hour party into a 30k one; Carrilei thinks we're calling him gimp or something. Someone says COR DD is expensive; Someone else takes offense because we're "applauding mediocrity".

Not everyone is trying to be antagonistic on the internet.
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#81 Jul 10 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand how ppl like you have red names. Your basically revolving every merit pty you have around YOU.


I *think* you misunderstood what he meant but.. then again I'm not him so maybe he did mean it that way.

The way I use the term "manipulate rolls" and the way I assume he meant it is just to do your rolls in a certain order to maximize their utility. Ideally speaking, 5 of the 6 pt members will have their 2 rolls up 100% of the time. The order in which you do them means nothing to them because they're always going to have those rolls up.

The one person most affected by roll order and who can benefit the most from smart use of rolls is.... YOU! (assuming YOU! = the COR) lol.

For example:

I have 6-minute rolls and a 3 roll cycle. I can essentially pick which 2 rolls I keep on myself for 5 minutes and which one I'll only have for 1 minute. If I'm DD i'll give the mages their roll first and then keep COR and Chaos on myself for 5 minutes. If I'm /mage I'll do the opposite and keep the refresh longer.

Nothing selfish about that, just another way a COR can make a pt function even better. Again though, I'm assuming that's what he meant lol. I could be wrong .



Edited, Jul 10th 2009 11:23pm by TDGSW
#82 Jul 10 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Corsair as a DD:

Cor Damage(shotting/DOT/QD) + Damage gain from buffs(from other DDs in party) * (1 + Percent of increased EXP/HP gained Summoners/Healers/Goodpulling) = Corsair total DD output.
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#83 Jul 11 2009 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I *think* you misunderstood what he meant but.. then again I'm not him so maybe he did mean it that way.


I might well have done, I was drunk last night and shouldn't have been allowed in front of a keyboard.

Either way, it also seems like he was/is using Hunter's roll as a standard in his merit pty's.

I was in a merit pty the other week, i was on SAM tho, with WAR & a 2nd SAM as DD, RDM, BRD, COR support. The cor was using his gun & daggers at the same time with iron bullets. I was kinda happy at that, i thought i might just have picked a half decent pick-up cor. Then he starts using Chaos/Hunter's. As SAM SAM WAR Hunter's was a complete waste, and he said he needed Hunter's to land Slug Shot. On SAM too, Chaos is doing nothing for our WS, only our DoT.

With some research, and more knowledge of the game, that COR could have made the pty really good with COR/CHAOS, or even better with COR/STP or COR/DA.

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#84 Jul 11 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
11) only people who can do elementary school math don't let their jaw hit the floor when their 20k/hr party becomes 22k/hr.

I'm surprised you keep going back to this point (that "infinite chain" is not much different than the types of parties that Carrilei is talking about). It's really wrong and fairly absurd.

Infinite chain on birds only (with maxed Sanction exp bonus) is ~12.4k/hr. That's the bare minimum for a party that's chaining indefinitely, and that's pretty underwhelming for any merit party with a support job in it (and absolutely unacceptable for a 2-support party). If you are chaining the same mobs as fast as possible (and killing only one floor of birds), you will get ~24.4k/hr; if you can manage to do so with Corsair's Roll (instead of 2 DD rolls), you're looking at 28.3k/hr.

I don't consider >= double the exp/hr for killing the same thing to be a trivial or inconsequential improvement.
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#85 Jul 11 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Default
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With some research, and more knowledge of the game, that COR could have made the pty really good with COR/CHAOS, or even better with COR/STP or COR/DA.


I've been in plenty of parties where Hunters was needed with 2H. You may be a good SAM, but there are plenty out there that are mediocre at best and need both Hunters and Chaos to even get respectable numbers. Maybe that is the COR"s experience to date. It has nothing to do with knowledge of the game.

It's the DD's responsibility to tell the COR whether ACC or ATT is capped or not. There are so many varieties of DD's and food optioins out there, most COR"s can't keep track.

Admittedly I'd usually roll Chaos/COR at the beginning and if we weren't killing at a speed I was happy with I'd swap out COR for another Roll. But while I've tried going Chaos/Fighters or Chaos/SAM, there's plenty of parties where Chaos/HUnters turned out to be the superior roll for speed of kills.
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#86 Jul 11 2009 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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To clarify a few points, the parties I've been in on COR have been really lackluster. They basically panned out like this:

-I seek on COR/RNG. They ask me to sub WHM, so I do.
-The party includes either average DDs, or hachiman body SAMs, or barone body DRGs, or relic body WARs (you see where this going).
-I get specifically asked to do Hunter's Roll.
-The party gets between 15~20k/hour.

But, I finally had a party that rocked. The setup was BRD BRD RDM COR/RNG WAR DRK and I was doing Fighter + Corsair roll. I believe we got mainly around 30k/hour and now I'm not sure if I ever want to go /WHM to merits again.

Again, I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear that I wasn't exactly in an ideal situation to DD properly.

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 3:50pm by Seitekifu
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#87 Jul 11 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
milich wrote:
11) only people who can do elementary school math don't let their jaw hit the floor when their 20k/hr party becomes 22k/hr.

I'm surprised you keep going back to this point (that "infinite chain" is not much different than the types of parties that Carrilei is talking about). It's really wrong and fairly absurd.

Infinite chain on birds only (with maxed Sanction exp bonus) is ~12.4k/hr. That's the bare minimum for a party that's chaining indefinitely, and that's pretty underwhelming for any merit party with a support job in it (and absolutely unacceptable for a 2-support party). If you are chaining the same mobs as fast as possible (and killing only one floor of birds), you will get ~24.4k/hr; if you can manage to do so with Corsair's Roll (instead of 2 DD rolls), you're looking at 28.3k/hr.

I don't consider >= double the exp/hr for killing the same thing to be a trivial or inconsequential improvement.


i feel sorry for you if your pickup infinite chain parties at birds are 13k/hr. get better leaders and stop partying 5 DD/NIN + COR/WHM or whatever you'd have to do to be so abysmal. i've never had a pickup party capable of keeping chain that didn't get 18k minimum, average 20k, without COR roll. this whole 30k/hr ************ is more due to COR roll and fast pulling than literally anything else at all. you can hold 20k+ with 2 DD 2 support if you're gearing, buffing, eating properly. all this "let's only talk about ELITE parties!" is self-congratulation.

sometimes COR DD would significantly raise XP/hr, b/c the COR's party members are gimps (but pulling/curing is being done well). sometimes it might tack on a k or two. you're seriously deluded if you think the dynamic is any different than what i'm saying; the only out of control better-than-a-good-pickup-PT XP in this game is *vacant* nyzul pulling from all 3 camps or *vacant* mjsp generally with outside healing support. you may think your leet birds + a couple wivre party is outdoing that other guys 4 AH SAM BRD RDM party, but you're really only getting a couple k more if that. look at TP in your next merit pt. how many people have to hold TP at low mob HP? what does it mean that they're doing that?

edit: to reiterate, yes, i am accusing most posters on various ffxi sites of (probably unintentionally b/c they believe their own ********* of pretending that meriting is a lot harder and different than it actually is, and i believe that the motivation for this is, exactly, the need for self-congratulation. the facts of mob HP vs player damage potential illustrate this quite clearly, but if you need emotional support for the argument, look at the type of people who talk about the huge difference in skill level / XP between this infinite chain party and that. carrilei is dying to validate him or herself, it's pathetic, and all i've seen him/her post.

as for redvenomweb, i assume you're just making a silly inference from the minimal possible battle time to achieve an infinite chain. i want to point out that an average fight time that was minimal-to-keep-chain would not keep chain (if you can't figure out why, think about averages for a bit).

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 6:04pm by milich
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#88 Jul 11 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
level / XP between this infinite chain party and that. carrilei is dying to validate him or herself, it's pathetic, and all i've seen him/her post.

Uh, my only point has been that you judging merit performance by infinite chains is a joke. Where exactly do you get that I'm "dying to validate myself"? I've been in lackluster merit parties before, and great ones, like many others. I think you're confusing logic with .. arrogance, or something? I guess it could seem like that if you're so often on the other side of it.


milich wrote:
i feel sorry for you if your pickup infinite chain parties at birds are 13k/hr. get better leaders and stop partying 5 DD/NIN + COR/WHM or whatever you'd have to do to be so abysmal.

Let's see here. Did RVW say he was in these 13k/hr parties, or did he point out that "infinite chain" can be 13k/hr as to point out that you're spouting incorrect ********* Hmmm...
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#89 Jul 11 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
i've never had a pickup party capable of keeping chain that didn't get 18k minimum, average 20k, without COR roll. this whole 30k/hr ************ is more due to COR roll and fast pulling than literally anything else at all.

COR roll, on average, gives exp+15.7%. If you think COR roll is making the difference between 20k/hr and 30k/hr, you're sadly mistaken. 30k/hr with COR roll is ~26k/hr without it.

Quote:
you're seriously deluded if you think the dynamic is any different than what i'm saying; the only out of control better-than-a-good-pickup-PT XP in this game is *vacant* nyzul pulling from all 3 camps or *vacant* mjsp generally with outside healing support.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

There is a pervasive (and false) belief in the FFXI community that exp/hr at birds is directly tied to how empty the island is. This is only true when you have a good-but-not-quite-good-enough party that can chain the occasional wivre but really needs a steady diet of birds in order to chain.

When you can reliably chain wivres, one floor alone is enough for 33k/hr before respawn timers are an issue. And one of the major, relevant factors in being able to chain wivres consistently is the amount of damage you are dealing.

In above-average (20-25k without COR roll) parties, you're right, COR doesn't really need to do much beside show up. But when you are talking about 30k+, everyone needs to carry their weight.

Quote:
as for redvenomweb, i assume you're just making a silly inference from the minimal possible battle time to achieve an infinite chain. i want to point out that an average fight time that was minimal-to-keep-chain would not keep chain (if you can't figure out why, think about averages for a bit).

So is your point that a minimal-chain party would actually get ~15k/hr instead of ~12k? There's still a massive gap between that and 25k+.
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#90 Jul 11 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Carrilei wrote:
milich wrote:
level / XP between this infinite chain party and that. carrilei is dying to validate him or herself, it's pathetic, and all i've seen him/her post.

Uh, my only point has been that you judging merit performance by infinite chains is a joke. Where exactly do you get that I'm "dying to validate myself"? I've been in lackluster merit parties before, and great ones, like many others. I think you're confusing logic with .. arrogance, or something? I guess it could seem like that if you're so often on the other side of it.


milich wrote:
i feel sorry for you if your pickup infinite chain parties at birds are 13k/hr. get better leaders and stop partying 5 DD/NIN + COR/WHM or whatever you'd have to do to be so abysmal.

Let's see here. Did RVW say he was in these 13k/hr parties, or did he point out that "infinite chain" can be 13k/hr as to point out that you're spouting incorrect bullsh*t? Hmmm...


you are so slow. you've picked up on this infinite chain thing (and i've trolled you repeatedly by using it without quotation or comment, but forgetting that), but you disagreed with me when i mentioned how there's very little difference between average/above-average merit parties and all-6-members-are-fantastic merit parties. i'm sure there's people here who are stupid enough to not notice that disagreement entails affirmation of the opposite opinion; in other words, i'm not putting words in your mouth by (wildly!) assuming that when you disagree with me, you hold the opposite view to mine.

as for getting all upset about infinite chain parties, i reiterate that infinite chain at birds is 18k+ minimum (same with nyzul mamool generally), and i'd love to see some parses proving me wrong.

"but RVW said infinite chain at birds can be 13k!" yeah. i reiterate (why am i always reiterating when i address you?) that the raw possibility of 13k/hr doesn't mean it ever happens; no one has 100+ chain with each fight measuring exactly 59 seconds. again, feel free to show me your parsed mediocrity if you have such a weird party recording.

i'm not going to go back and quote the beginning of this thread (you can read it yourself if you want), but i will continue to insult you. (if that's too cryptic, it's in response to whining about putting words in your mouth or whatever boring sh*t you post)

---

rvw in response to your most recent post,

my point is that minimal XP per infinite chain is impossible because you can't have fights that last the max amount of time before losing chain and still keep chain. the reason for this is that uniform fight length is impossible, especially with gimps.

i'm a bit at a loss at how to respond to you otherwise. you kill wivre and make how much more XP? what are you even claiming? that a pickup PT gets 20k, and you get 33k from wivre? ...the colibri still have the same repop times you know (stay with me here). so you get 3 more mobs per cycle. are you seriously trying to tell me that 3 mobs are giving like 5k XP?

and also, the COR roll mentioning is due to the fact that you're (as in this recent post) claiming these sweeping XP numbers to prove something about damage, but considering non-COR roll XP minimums (the gimp parties) and obviously COR-rolled maximums (those heavy epeen swingers).

i don't know why you're pretending there's like 5k/cycle worth of wivre XP at nyzul isle... i can only assume you're deluded into thinking a party that was pulling from all 3 camps "just doesn't get much more XP" than a party that doesn't... there really aren't enough mobs there to get more than a k or two more than an average infinite chain party (wink -> carrilei).

edit: not to be insulting (though you are being kind of insulting by not thinking, but i'm okay with it), a quick direct response:

Quote:
So is your point that a minimal-chain party would actually get ~15k/hr instead of ~12k? There's still a massive gap between that and 25k+.


considering i've said twice now that 18-20k/hr is about the minimum for reliably infinite chains at birds, you really couldn't infer what my point is? i mean, you sat at your computer and read me type "20k/hr" and thought, "he must mean 15k/hr"?


Edited, Jul 11th 2009 8:31pm by milich
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#91 Jul 11 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
considering i've said twice now that 18-20k/hr is about the minimum for reliably infinite chains at birds, you really couldn't infer what my point is? i mean, you sat at your computer and read me type "20k/hr" and thought, "he must mean 15k/hr"?

My 15k party example was "reliable" infinite chain. RVW has the math as low as 12.4k, so that 15k/hr certainly checks out. Yet you feel compelled to think only "18-20k" (it was just 20 before) is the absolute minimum to reliably chain. You're wrong; just go get drunk and merit with JPs as you mentioned earlier, and enjoy your "18k-20k infinite-chain" eliteness, thinking it really can't get much better, because you hit chain 113 or something.

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 9:28pm by Carrilei
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#92 Jul 11 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
my point is that minimal XP per infinite chain is impossible because you can't have fights that last the max amount of time before losing chain and still keep chain. the reason for this is that uniform fight length is impossible, especially with gimps.

And from that point, you seem to conclude that the lowest possible "reliable" chain speed is... over 50% faster (18-20k) than the mathematically minimum required speed (12k). OK.

Quote:
i'm a bit at a loss at how to respond to you otherwise. you kill wivre and make how much more XP? what are you even claiming? that a pickup PT gets 20k, and you get 33k from wivre? ...the colibri still have the same repop times you know (stay with me here). so you get 3 more mobs per cycle. are you seriously trying to tell me that 3 mobs are giving like 5k XP?

There are 21 colibri and 8 wivres at Tandjana Islet. Kill 10 birds and 4 wivres in 5 minutes (the respawn time) and you get 33k/hr (before COR roll). The math is not difficult, so I'm not sure why you haven't done it.

Quote:
considering i've said twice now that 18-20k/hr is about the minimum for reliably infinite chains at birds, you really couldn't infer what my point is? i mean, you sat at your computer and read me type "20k/hr" and thought, "he must mean 15k/hr"?

No, I'm trying to get you to explain some sort of actual math-based evidence for your completely arbitrary claim that infinite chains result in at least 18-20k/hr. Setting aside the obvious contradictory experience that everyone that is disagreeing with you has had (I've had several infinite chain parties that made less than 20k/hr WITH COR roll), it would be nice if you tried to offer up SOME sort of math to support your point.

Furthermore, it seems like your entire argument rests upon this rather ridiculous triviality of what exactly constitutes an "infinite chain" party, as if a party that makes 30k/hr (but loses a couple of chains on, say, wivres) is somehow inferior to one that chains every single bird start-to-finish for a grand total of 17k/hr (in that the latter would be classified as an "infinite chain" party, but the former would not).

So as not to obscure the point of this post:

The term "infinite chain party" does not carry any useful informational value other than to establish that the party is not completely incompetent and unworthy of any discussion whatsoever. Your claim that "infinite chain parties" are really only a few k/hr from each other, top-to-bottom, is absurd, and the corollary conclusion (that COR DD really doesn't make that much of a difference) is baseless. COR DD is only irrelevant if you are partying with people who also don't care about their damage.

P.S On a side note, your claim is precisely the kind of statement that I commonly hear from people who also say things like "bird camp caps out at 25k/hr" and "there's no point in min-maxing at merits because you will be respawn-limited anyway." I feel very safe in saying that the number of parties that will actually be respawn-limited at middle or bottom birds+wivres is statistically insignificant, and the number of parties who are respawn-limited with both middle and bottom available (a feat that not-at-all difficult outside of weekends/prime-time) is ZERO.

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 7:27pm by redvenomweb
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#93 Jul 11 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been in plenty of parties where Hunters was needed with 2H. You may be a good SAM, but there are plenty out there that are mediocre at best and need both Hunters and Chaos to even get respectable numbers.


Mediocre like this?

http://ffxigear.com/?ref=13860

With no merits, yeah, that guy sucks... but it's not your responsibility as a COR to make his accuracy not suck, it's your responsibility to make sure you get the most exp/hr that the party can. That includes telling jack asses like the above mentioned guy to start popping crab sushi.

Quote:
Admittedly I'd usually roll Chaos/COR at the beginning and if we weren't killing at a speed I was happy with I'd swap out COR for another Roll. But while I've tried going Chaos/Fighters or Chaos/SAM, there's plenty of parties where Chaos/HUnters turned out to be the superior roll for speed of kills.


Chaos/Hunter's is never the superior roll for exp/hr. As I said, if a DD has such bad accuracy that they can't be reasonably close to cap (lets say 90%+), then they should be using crab sushi... god knows they aren't going to be pulling hate often enough to lose food.

For a merit situation, the best rolls you can give your party are:

Corsair's Roll - EVERYBODY, ALWAYS.
Chaos Roll - If you have 2 or more DDs with multi-hit WSs.
Fighter's Roll - If you have 2 or more SAM using Gekko.
Evoker's Roll - The mage.

Seriously, I can't think of a single party set up that actually ever happens in game that those 4 simple choices aren't going to encompass all your merit party needs. And again, if you have a DD who sucks bad enough that you think you need Hunter's Roll, stop and realize that Crab Sushi + Chaos (or Fighter's) is a much better combination. Even if all 3 DDs suck that bad, they are better off using crab sushi and getting an appropriate roll than they are getting Hunter's. If they refuse, just don't party... you actually can get better exp from Campaign than a party like that.
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#94 Jul 12 2009 at 12:10 AM Rating: Default
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redvenomweb wrote:
milich wrote:
my point is that minimal XP per infinite chain is impossible because you can't have fights that last the max amount of time before losing chain and still keep chain. the reason for this is that uniform fight length is impossible, especially with gimps.

And from that point, you seem to conclude that the lowest possible "reliable" chain speed is... over 50% faster (18-20k) than the mathematically minimum required speed (12k). OK.

Quote:
i'm a bit at a loss at how to respond to you otherwise. you kill wivre and make how much more XP? what are you even claiming? that a pickup PT gets 20k, and you get 33k from wivre? ...the colibri still have the same repop times you know (stay with me here). so you get 3 more mobs per cycle. are you seriously trying to tell me that 3 mobs are giving like 5k XP?

There are 21 colibri and 8 wivres at Tandjana Islet. Kill 10 birds and 4 wivres in 5 minutes (the respawn time) and you get 33k/hr (before COR roll). The math is not difficult, so I'm not sure why you haven't done it.

Quote:
considering i've said twice now that 18-20k/hr is about the minimum for reliably infinite chains at birds, you really couldn't infer what my point is? i mean, you sat at your computer and read me type "20k/hr" and thought, "he must mean 15k/hr"?

No, I'm trying to get you to explain some sort of actual math-based evidence for your completely arbitrary claim that infinite chains result in at least 18-20k/hr. Setting aside the obvious contradictory experience that everyone that is disagreeing with you has had (I've had several infinite chain parties that made less than 20k/hr WITH COR roll), it would be nice if you tried to offer up SOME sort of math to support your point.

Furthermore, it seems like your entire argument rests upon this rather ridiculous triviality of what exactly constitutes an "infinite chain" party, as if a party that makes 30k/hr (but loses a couple of chains on, say, wivres) is somehow inferior to one that chains every single bird start-to-finish for a grand total of 17k/hr (in that the latter would be classified as an "infinite chain" party, but the former would not).

So as not to obscure the point of this post:

The term "infinite chain party" does not carry any useful informational value other than to establish that the party is not completely incompetent and unworthy of any discussion whatsoever. Your claim that "infinite chain parties" are really only a few k/hr from each other, top-to-bottom, is absurd, and the corollary conclusion (that COR DD really doesn't make that much of a difference) is baseless. COR DD is only irrelevant if you are partying with people who also don't care about their damage.

P.S On a side note, your claim is precisely the kind of statement that I commonly hear from people who also say things like "bird camp caps out at 25k/hr" and "there's no point in min-maxing at merits because you will be respawn-limited anyway." I feel very safe in saying that the number of parties that will actually be respawn-limited at middle or bottom birds+wivres is statistically insignificant, and the number of parties who are respawn-limited with both middle and bottom available (a feat that not-at-all difficult outside of weekends/prime-time) is ZERO.

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 7:27pm by redvenomweb


how powerful does a party have to be to put out 4k~ damage every 20-25 seconds? what min-maxing are you talking about besides eating proper food and using sensible buffs? how much of the 4k~ damage comes from BRD RDM COR buffs/debuffs, and how much from gear/"min/maxing"? you complain about "infinite chain" but throw around "min/maxing" like it's nothing (what, like the 1% DoT i spent 2m~ on haub+1 for? that's going to break my next party over 40k/hr).

anyway, you're right (as in i'm wrong; if you're making some strange claim beyond just disagreeing with me, i don't know) if COR DDing instead of not, or 2-3 members "min/maxing" (you mean engaging fast? or eating food? or what?) will shave 30-35 second fights down to 20 seconds. we could be honest and realize that stacking haste (BUFFS) and pulling speed is the only possible way to accomplish that task, and we could also realize that most parties include people (often more than one member) with TP held over at the end of a fight or while walking to a mob or walking in front of it for overwhelm or whatever so that virtually no one is held back XP-wise by damage potential...

but sure, let's not be honest. people get < 30k hour at nyzul because they wear haub instead of haub+1, and the 4th DD (COR) doesn't have an m.kris. and going beyond the usual 20k/hr (which the people who disagree with me "obviously" have experienced far less than because... because... well they must have parses showing it that they forgot to save) is totally due to heavy DDs and not march*2 + haste + hasso + dia and such. we all need to maximize as much as i do (and i do) to get more than 13k/hr in our piddling Infinite Chain Parties (capitalizing it now, because apparently my use of the word infinite chain is shocking).

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 4:12am by milich
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#95 Jul 12 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
how powerful does a party have to be to put out 4k~ damage every 20-25 seconds?

And again, like clockwork, you completely miss the point.

What he's talking about (one floor of birds + wivre all killed within 5 minutes) would get 33k/hr without Corsair's Roll. That'd be over 38k/hr with COR roll. I'll let you (try) to figure out what his point was, again. (hint: it has something to do with there being an enormous range of exp/hr that qualify as 'inifinite chaining'!).

Here's another hint, because well, you'll need it - he wasn't saying he gets 38k/hr, either. He was simply saying it's possible.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 5:09am by Carrilei
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#96 Jul 12 2009 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Carrilei wrote:
milich wrote:
how powerful does a party have to be to put out 4k~ damage every 20-25 seconds?

And again, like clockwork, you completely miss the point.

What he's talking about (one floor of birds + wivre all killed within 5 minutes) would get 33k/hr without Corsair's Roll. That'd be over 38k/hr with COR roll. I'll let you (try) to figure out what his point was, again. (hint: it has something to do with there being an enormous range of exp/hr that qualify as 'inifinite chaining'!).

Here's another hint, because well, you'll need it - he wasn't saying he gets 38k/hr, either. He was simply saying it's possible.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 5:09am by Carrilei


hint: i don't give a **** if it bothers you when i say "infinite chain" and have been only arguing about whether or not epeen swinging matters. if that means i wasn't talking about what you wanted to talk about, guess how that makes me feel (hint: i'm crying).
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#97 Jul 12 2009 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
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I don't undertand how 38K/hour is possible. Killing all birds + wivre's in 5mins, then your waiting for repop's.

I've been in a couple of pty's recently that have killed everything bird + wivre then kept losing chains due to waiting on re-pop's (namely these 80% Haste DNC+BRD suport pty's i've been making).

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#99 Jul 12 2009 at 6:35 AM Rating: Good
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Sandmasterr wrote:
I don't undertand how 38K/hour is possible. Killing all birds + wivre's in 5mins, then your waiting for repop's.

I've been in a couple of pty's recently that have killed everything bird + wivre then kept losing chains due to waiting on re-pop's (namely these 80% Haste DNC+BRD suport pty's i've been making).



I've always wanted to try that setup but never a dnc around when I want one.

on topic though, a lot of parties can keep a chain going and still get 15k/hr or so, but you do need to kill a little faster for 20k an hour, cor can not even dd and you can do that with good melee, but lets face it, a lot of melee are gimp out there.

lets not talk about this whole 30-38k/hr thing, theories are just that, in practicality it just won't happen, what carrilei is saying is that you can keep chain and not get that 20k an hour.

I've seen it more than once, I'm not an OMGwtfbbw cor dd, don't even have a multihit, but I have a decent haste setup and full dagger merits, and I can still take a bird from 25% to 0 with a ws, thats a few seconds faster that we can get to the next one. competent melee are hard to come by, always been that way really.

if I go cor to a merit pt, its beacause I want to flex the epeen as much as the other guy, and get some good xp in the mix, its why most of you don't play brd and play cor instead.

we look down on cor/whm because they really don't have much to do, much less so than a brd/whm, and really, why level cor if you don't want to shoot something.
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#100 Jul 12 2009 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Man I miss when FFXI was about fun lol.



but math IS fun! srsly!

I enjoy reading RVW's posts because they all bring to light what's really going on with the numbers. And when you think about it, all of these RPG games are big complex number games.

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#101 Jul 12 2009 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Chaos/Hunter's is never the superior roll for exp/hr. As I said, if a DD has such bad accuracy that they can't be reasonably close to cap (lets say 90%+), then they should be using crab sushi... god knows they aren't going to be pulling hate often enough to lose food.


Well my point was, that I've been in parties where the melees didn't bring food. I spend enough in a meripo already, I'm not supplying food for the gimps that come too cheap to buy even crab sushi.

Yes, I ask that melee take care of their accuracy. But they don't always do that in PUG's. So my options are: 1) supply them with sushi, 2) roll Hunter's, 3) leave the group.

My actions are: 1) Roll Hunters AND 2) Leave the group as soon as my xp band wears.

All I'm saying is there is a grand variability in the quality of melees out there that those of you in the rarified world of Alla don't seem to ever see. Believe it or not, there are melees who won't pop sushi or pizza even on mamool, let alone birds. Thankfully these real bad parties are few and far between. I'm just saying they exist and assuming they don't means you haven't spent much times at the lower end of Vanadiel society.
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