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Reminder to 75 COR poseters re: dd corFollow

#1 Jul 06 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're a COR who doesn't deal damage, you've failed at the job class.



I really don't understand why most of the posters on this site shout this in every thread they can.

Yes, Cor should dd. The af has ranged stats (so does nin, even better in fact) everyone understands Cor's main dps weapon is gun.

But, it seems like the readers here leveled the job yrs ago and don't understand that Cor dd is NOT common among cor still leveling or endgame.

Please stop belittling people like many OP here that are just curious about Cor DD - the fact is, it's not something that they would likely know about even after leveling several jobs to 75 and pting with MANY other cors during that time.

This holds especially true for people looking at cor before they have their first 75, the money simply isn't there to shoot. Telling people to suck it up and farm or play another job are worthless posters. The job is insanely expensive and the dps is far from reflective of that fact. When people ask about dd/pulling/buffs/subs, stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is and a spare 100k to spend on every pt in food/ammo.
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#2 Jul 06 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Dryr wrote:
But, it seems like the readers here leveled the job yrs ago and don't understand that Cor dd is NOT common among cor still leveling or endgame.


Common =/= correct. COR DD is both practical and useful in the vast majority of endgame events. My COR DDs for Einherjar, sea, limbus, sky trigs, Nyzul Isle, etc. Sky gods is the only event my shell does where I don't, but I'm usually on WAR for those ayway.

Quote:
stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is


They should. Leveling NIN WAR RNG DNC is not hard, doesn't cost much, and doesn't even take very long with level sync and fields of valor now. Not having all of those subs at 37 is pure, sheer, utter laziness.

Edit: I suck at typing.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 3:51pm by KaishenRamuh
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#3Mjrna, Posted: Jul 06 2009 at 9:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Opinion =/= Correct either.
#4 Jul 06 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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There are some jobs you shouldn't ever level as a 1st job.

Pretty much like SMN (fenrir) or PUP (expensives attachements). COR shouldn't be used as 1st job to 75 because of the sheer cost, it was the case for NIN or RNG too but the prices seriously fell and made it viable.

Would you accept a BRD who doesn't got ballad2 or the last minuets because "they are too expensives"? Hint : the answer is no.
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#5 Jul 06 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I said it before and i'll say it again: If you took COR's gun away, invites wouldn't change one iota. If you take away the rolls, however, you would never get an invite.
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#6 Jul 06 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
With fields of Valor in place it took me only a day and a half to get a job from 1-37 ... it's ridiculously easy!

/whm
/rdm
/war

I did these 3 in about 2 weeks on and off. Playing for maybe a few hours a night. It's an expensive job to play in the most effective way possible. It's up to the individual if they want to give rolls and do "nothing", or give rolls and contribute the ~15% party damage (an average cor should be able to acheive this).

I wouldn't call myself a casual player, yet I'm not as hardcore as most. I still manage to farm enough gil and obtain good quality gear through events (Sky, Sea, Limbus +1's, Einherjar). The only thing I don't have time for is Skadi which I doubt I'll ever attain.

Limbus - easy and not time consuming to +1 your AF

Sky - cmon, it takes 1-2 days a week to get a full kirin pop set if you have a good group, C.legs and C.hands are invaluable.

Sea - Granted access takes a long time to get, but you can solo the Grah chips AND solo the NM for the fortitude torque! Not to mention the Obi's for QD and the gorgets for WS acc and atk.

Einherjar - They've made it so even if you lose you get ampules for the belt! Another short event that takes an hour or 2 each time you try (ampules guaranteed if you kill even just 1 wave).

Dynamis - This one actually does kinda suck, but with the increased drop rates in the northlands, it's not that bad. I got the hat and the coat in about 2-3 weeks.


So access to gear issues? aside from excuses, I don't see any reason anyone can't do at least one of these at a time. Even the most casual corsair would have access to some of these events. If a person asks the question, posters will tell them their answer. Just because you don't like that the answer is telling you to go level X subjob, or go farm X gil, doesn't mean the answer is instantly wrong. You just don't like it. No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to play a certain way. However opinions were asked, opinions were given. You can't preface a question with "how should I" or "what should I" to only be upset that the answer you receive is telling you to level another job or to farm for bullet money, or even to skillup a craft.

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#7 Jul 06 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Dryr wrote:
This holds especially true for people looking at cor before they have their first 75, the money simply isn't there to shoot. Telling people to suck it up and farm or play another job are worthless posters. The job is insanely expensive and the dps is far from reflective of that fact. When people ask about dd/pulling/buffs/subs, stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is and a spare 100k to spend on every pt in food/ammo.


It's called an 'Advanced Job' for a reason.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 1:00pm by chewzer
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#8 Jul 06 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dryr wrote:
Yes, Cor should dd. The af has ranged stats (so does nin, even better in fact) everyone understands Cor's main dps weapon is gun.

And you know what, from about 18-40 the best way to DD on NIN is to throw ninja stars. SE seems to have envisioned NIN to be a ninja star throwing ninjitsu enfeebler but the playerbase saw NIN as a tank and that became the "accepted norm". Just like a DD COR is the "accepted norm" in almost everyone's eyes, at least everyone I've partied with.

Dryr wrote:
But, it seems like the readers here leveled the job yrs ago and don't understand that Cor dd is NOT common among cor still leveling or endgame.


I leveled COR and am leveling it off of the same gil funding methods I used to get SCH from 1-75. Nothing has changed other than having a job at 75 means I can help my LS with Dynamis, Sky, Sea, and missions. None of these things really net me any gil, I get gear I want but since I won't spend the hours farming crap others do I don't see the returns they do and rightfully so.

Dryr wrote:
Please stop belittling people like many OP here that are just curious about Cor DD - the fact is, it's not something that they would likely know about even after leveling several jobs to 75 and pting with MANY other cors during that time.


Why wouldn't they? I learned that to level cor I would need up 50k for each level from30-50 where it jumped to an average of 100k at least after 54 and lesser colibri. These numbers are high because I take into account food, ammo, and deaths. But I got these numbers by reading posts on these forums, looking at how much things cost on the AH, looking up alternative places to buy things to save a little bit of gil. All of these things I did before or while leveling COR.

Now this sounds crazy and at first, it did to me too but then I figured out knowing what I do about making gil, how to average 50-100k a week in income to keep leveling COR when I wasn't doing "endgame" things, leveling subs or other random jobs in my limited playtime.

If I learned how to do this and it isn't much harder than learning the basics of how to play COR, why shouldn't I expect other CORs to do the same?

Dryr wrote:
This holds especially true for people looking at cor before they have their first 75, the money simply isn't there to shoot. Telling people to suck it up and farm or play another job are worthless posters. The job is insanely expensive and the dps is far from reflective of that fact. When people ask about dd/pulling/buffs/subs, stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is and a spare 100k to spend on every pt in food/ammo.

I bolded a key part, why is this true? I sucked it up and farmed. Having a level 75 job doesn't mean having a bank of millions of gil to blow on a job. It just means you can do events that take time away from farming and leveling another job. It also means you spend more time on that 75 job recouping exp lost doing said events.
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#9 Jul 06 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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But I got these numbers by reading posts on these forums


People come here asking for this same info, but are judged instead of receiving it..
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#10 Jul 06 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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People are judged because they come in the forums with a holier than thou attitude and start acting like they're God's gift to whatever job they're band-wagoning for the month.
If I walked into your house and called you and your whole family a bunch of worthless ******** for not force feeding me and buying me everything I need to be rich and successful, you'd respond the same way.
#11 Jul 06 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dryr wrote:
Quote:
But I got these numbers by reading posts on these forums


People come here asking for this same info, but are judged instead of receiving it..


Actually I got what I needed from the Stickies and reading older posts comparing stats on various gears, and it wasn't just info from these forums it was all my research combined. I haven't had to really ask any questions because others have already asked it before, or it was common sense why X armor is better than Y armor.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 12:30pm by Zagen
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#12 Jul 06 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, you should try to do some damage. Just remember that no matter how good you are at it, the vast majority of people are going to view you like they do a BRD. Bottom line -- when people invite a COR, they are doing it to fill a support/"BRD" slot, not a DD slot. And nobody ever cares about a BRD's damage. They aren't going to magically start caring about yours. Feel free to spend 100k or so per party on consumables if you like; just don't be surprised if you find that the only person that cares is you.
#13 Jul 06 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I wanted to add something: What kind of parties are you in that gives you enough time to shoot while keeping-up 4 rolls and pulling? In the parties I join, we always have a BRD and with ToAU/WoTG camps I am finding stuff dies way too fast to bother even trying to TP. I usually find I can gather TP from pulls and then dump it before I leave to pull again.

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#14 Jul 06 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Feel free to spend 100k or so per party on consumables if you like; just don't be surprised if you find that the only person that cares is you.


Oh I think the other party members care. They just don't know that they care. They assume that the great xp is do to the buffs making them uber-powerful and forget that the COR DD is also adding about 15% to the party damage.

Good COR's plus good party members > Bad CORs plus good party members.

Unfortunately unless you parse, you'll rarely be aware of all that a COR can do for a party.

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#15 Jul 06 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I wanted to add something: What kind of parties are you in that gives you enough time to shoot while keeping-up 4 rolls and pulling? In the parties I join, we always have a BRD and with ToAU/WoTG camps I am finding stuff dies way too fast to bother even trying to TP. I usually find I can gather TP from pulls and then dump it before I leave to pull again.


You have a BRD, why are you pulling?

If you are sole support and pulling, I agree you don't have time to shoot or melee. But if you have a BRD, they should be pulling and you should be meleeing. Likely in those situations you can run a 3 roll rotation with Evokers, COR, Chaos or Evokers Hunters Chaos depending on how good your DD's are. In that instance, you have plenty of time to DD.
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#16 Jul 06 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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DubiousNinja wrote:
I wanted to add something: What kind of parties are you in that gives you enough time to shoot while keeping-up 4 rolls and pulling? In the parties I join, we always have a BRD and with ToAU/WoTG camps I am finding stuff dies way too fast to bother even trying to TP. I usually find I can gather TP from pulls and then dump it before I leave to pull again.


If you have a bard, why are you pulling?

Edit: lol... Dartagnann beat me to it. ;p

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 3:34pm by chewzer
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#17 Jul 06 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
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If you have a bard, why are you pulling?

Low level burns in East Ronfaure [S], we have the BRD sub WHM and assist with cures. Running a 3 DD /NIN rotation we need the extra healing. Easier to pull and let the BRD back-up.

Quote:
Oh I think the other party members care. They just don't know that they care. They assume that the great xp is do to the buffs making them uber-powerful and forget that the COR DD is also adding about 15% to the party damage.

Good COR's plus good party members > Bad CORs plus good party members.

Unfortunately unless you parse, you'll rarely be aware of all that a COR can do for a party.

Depends on the set-up really. Popular method of leveling with a certain LS on Fenrir is to bring CORs at level 40 to Nyzul Mamool camp. COR does Evoker's, SAM and COR rolls. With a BRD, RDM and 3 SAMs (MNKs, /SAM, etc.) this exp is insanely fast. Can go from 40-50 on COR in a very, very short time without the party suffering. The exp continues past that. You can go from 40-75 this way much faster than a lot of other ways.

People invite CORs for the buffs, not the pew pew. I'm not saying COR can't DD, i've seen some CORs that do amazing dmg, but the majority of the people would invite them even if the COR didn't shoot and the party was aware of the damage loss.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 2:44pm by DubiousNinja
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#18 Jul 06 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh I think the other party members care. They just don't know that they care. They assume that the great xp is do to the buffs making them uber-powerful and forget that the COR DD is also adding about 15% to the party damage.


I've had numerous parties pull in awesome EXP even when the COR was doing nothing but buffs and QDs (QDs including the occasional add control). Just because the COR might have been doing 15% of the mob's life doesn't mean that the other melees are going to take much longer to get rid of that 15% themselves, especially if a BRD is also present.

Bottom line: if BRDs can get away with contributing little to no direct damage themselves and still produce a party getting good EXP, so can COR. Not that I advocate doing this, just saying that if you think people look at COR and think "damage", you're deluding yourselves just as much as the wannabe RDM-melee is.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:47pm by Fynlar
#19 Jul 06 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've had numerous parties pull in awesome EXP even when the COR was doing nothing but buffs and QDs (QDs including the occasional add control). Just because the COR might have been doing 15% of the mob's life doesn't mean that the other melees are going to take much longer to get rid of that 15% themselves, especially if a BRD is also present.


Arguably you could pull in great experience if the COR just DD'd and rolled COR roll.
But it would still be better exp if the COR did everything he could which is roll and contribute damage. 15% faster is 15% faster whether its noticed or not.

As a COR I've had all sorts of parties, but the best ones are the ones that had a BRD puller and good DD's and me as a COR/DD. They are the only ones where I've hit the 20k/hr mark. Never done it when I was either sole support or needed to help backup heal.
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#20 Jul 06 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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just saying that if you think people look at COR and think "damage", you're deluding yourselves just as much as the wannabe RDM-melee is.

You know you're opening yourself up to the "I saw a COR with full Skadi and 'xyz' gear out-dmg 'xyz' DD," right? lol
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#21 Jul 06 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
Fynlar wrote:
Yeah, you should try to do some damage. Just remember that no matter how good you are at it, the vast majority of people are going to view you like they do a BRD. Bottom line -- when people invite a COR, they are doing it to fill a support/"BRD" slot, not a DD slot. And nobody ever cares about a BRD's damage. They aren't going to magically start caring about yours. Feel free to spend 100k or so per party on consumables if you like; just don't be surprised if you find that the only person that cares is you.



Sooooo it's ok to gimp yourself because other people won't notice... People do notice, the argument is that they don't invite because of the damage.


DubiousNinja wrote:
Quote:
just saying that if you think people look at COR and think "damage", you're deluding yourselves just as much as the wannabe RDM-melee is.

You know you're opening yourself up to the "I saw a COR with full Skadi and 'xyz' gear out-dmg 'xyz' DD," right? lol


And yes, while an average cor can and should be able to parse ~15% ... a good cor can and should be able to parse ~20% It's not that hard with the right gear and roll cycle. (I'm strictly referring to merits here though)


*edit* Speeling >.<!

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 2:17pm by Spikido
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#22 Jul 06 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Dryr wrote:
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If you're a COR who doesn't deal damage, you've failed at the job class.


I really don't understand why most of the posters on this site shout this in every thread they can.


I don't think most of the posters here DO really say that. What they really say is that you should be doing SOMETHING besides just standing there and rolling. If you're only rolling and standing around, you completely suck. Plain and simple. Is it possible to get invites from desperate people with low standards (or high desire to get e-peen WS numbers)? Yes. But you **** well better be doing SOMETHING productive in addition to your rolls.

Main ways people do that:

1. /RNG (or /WAR) and DDing. A lot of people like this and it's a very obvious choice, because COR has access to quite a bit of gear that is well suited for adding damage. You should at the very least be prepared to do so, in the event your party has a puller already (so COR/NIN is less useful) and doesn't need a lot of extra support (COR/DNC is less useful if you already have a lot of support - say, a DNC or /DNC in party, or multiple mages - you'd be better off adding damage instead of even more support).

Note that DD becomes much more about gaining TP for WS at later levels, but you will indeed be spending a lot of time shooting your gun in the mid levels. Once you get a multi-hit weapon (M.Kris or Joyeuse), ammo costs decrease because melee is much more efficient than ranged DD. Some of the higher level single hit daggers are reasonable options too, stuff like Jambiya and Behemoth Knife. A COR who pays attention to WS and rolls and uses a single hit weapon is a **** of a lot better than one who rolls and stands around. You really need to be shooting for TP from 22 to AT LEAST Slug Shot level (54? Can't remember off the top of my head) though. Your WS are simply too weak, and you'll get pretty good damage from /RA to add to your party far more than... just standing there and rolling. And you should at least have a solid ranged set for situations where you might want to be at a distance, as it comes up a lot for any COR no matter what your preference is.

2. /NIN and pulling. I actually kinda enjoy pulling sometimes, and though some here hate it, COR is at least capable of doing it (very well at merit camps, not as well prior to that but still certainly CAPABLE). Note that this still requires gil. You're still gonna be using consumables to pull, and at pre-merit levels you have plenty of time to pop off a couple /ra during the fight too. You're also going to be spending gil on ninja tools. ****, I even have some nice evasion pieces to go along with my capped evasion skill for when I pull.

3. /DNC and becoming an uber-support character. Box/Quick Step, Drain Sambas, emergency spot healing with cures. Add that to a little DD and the rolls, and you're doing a ton for your party. Potentially the cheapest way to go too, as you'll want to be in melee range to keep up sambas and use steps. A good low delay dagger or a multihit weapon (M.Kris or Joyeuse) are useful.

4. Japanese would say /WHM and backup healing is a good option, though it's generally not accepted by the english-speaking COR community outside of lazy people who just want an excuse to stand on the backline and occasionally throw out a cure. Even if you do think that's a good idea (I don't, but for the sake of argument let's say you truly wanted to play the COR/WHM role and not be a gimp), you'll need to invest in some MP and mage-type gear.

5. Focus on adding as much Quick Draw damage as possible with /RDM or /BLM. Very specific situations though, generally for endgame HNM type mobs that are weak to magic damage, and your ranged or melee attacks aren't as useful.


People whining about "it's expensive" are also annoying. By complaining about costs, you're pretty much admitting that you think the stuff that costs money is useful. Otherwise, why complain? If you don't like the idea of needing to earn gil, and you're just interested in buffing people and supporting without adding DD, BRD is a much more affordable option that might be a better fit for you.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 5:57pm by Anza
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#23 Jul 06 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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I think what we need to factor into this whole conversation is, what is the person's play-style like? Yes, I can't disagree that a COR who shoots and is able to keep up all buffs is going to be more effective than a COR who only does one or the other. But, not everyone plays the same. There is an ideal way to play and then there is an individual way to play.

The difference is that playing as just a buffer is still going to net an exp party a significant amount of exp/hr. It's not the same as a DD who comes in the worst gear you can think of and eats the wrong food. There is acceptable and then there is "wtf are you doing?"

When I talk about play-style, there are several factors to consider:

1)How much time do they have to play? Not everyone can spend 8-10 hours farming, but they can spend a couple hours doing Nyzul, Einherjar, etc. So why should they be put to a ridiculous standard of gear and expendables expense to please the masses?

2)Do they enjoy leveling? I think people forgot this somewhere. I have multiple jobs at 75 (count: 4) and I love COR, but I absolutley despise leveling. I love merits parties, but I can't stand the standard exp party. I take pride in my jobs, but I don't feel I have to spend every dime I have on leveling, i'm going to spend a fortune at 75 anyway. Not everyone is going to play by the same standards as others. COR isn't a job where you gimp your party if you don't shoot, only if you don't roll. On a DD job, this is different, where your only expendable is food.

3)Is this their first 75? Just because it's an advanced job doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to play it. It's a game. Yes they may not have all the nice Rare/EX gear that more experienced players do, or the ability to farm gil at a rate most of us can, but that doesn't mean they should be told "don't play this job because you can't afford it" especially with COR. Who's to say they don't get 75 with it and work their asses off for nice gear? I know this is typically not the case, but gfy if you think you can sit on high and judge them for playing COR as just a support/buffer job.

Again, with a standard DD job it is unaccepatble to at least not gear with stuff that makes sense and eat appropriate food, but that's because their only contribution to the party is DD. COR doesn't "need" to DD to be effective. Can it DD? Sure. Will the party suffer because it only rolls? How about party with 5 people without a COR doing just rolls and see how that works out for you.

Edit: Anza makes a good point about /DNC. I always forget about that sub, even though I spend 90% of my time on NIN as /DNC.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:00pm by DubiousNinja
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#24 Jul 06 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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DubiousNinja wrote:
I think what we need to factor into this whole conversation is, what is the person's play-style like?


If your "play style" is just to roll and do nothing else, there's a name for that. Gimp.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 6:05pm by Anza
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#25 Jul 06 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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That argument really doesn't hold much water. I'm not saying you should only stand there and roll, but it doesn't gimp the party if you do (level with 5 people and no COR and then level with a COR that only rolls, tell me how much of a difference it makes. Protip: It's going to be significant) A COR rolling vs. a COR that does nothing is a big difference. I never said you shouldn't be active and I dare you to find a statement I made that says "just stand there and roll." I am saying that you're not gimp if you don't spend 100K/level shooting bullets.

I gave you credit for your /DNC comment. If you don't have the means to farm lots of gil to be trigger happy, this is a nice way to still be useful.

Edit: Spelling.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:19pm by DubiousNinja
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#26 Jul 06 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Arguably you could pull in great experience if the COR just DD'd and rolled COR roll.
But it would still be better exp if the COR did everything he could which is roll and contribute damage. 15% faster is 15% faster whether its noticed or not.


COR doing 15% of the damage does not necessarily mean that your killspeed, or EXP rate, would drop by 15% if he were to stop.

Quote:
Sooooo it's ok to gimp yourself because other people won't notice...


No, I'm just saying don't go nuts over it (which is the mentality indicated by many people around this forum), because no matter what, that's not what people are inviting you for. Try reading that first sentence that you quoted again, as well.

Quote:
You know you're opening yourself up to the "I saw a COR with full Skadi and 'xyz' gear out-dmg 'xyz' DD," right? lol


Yeah, but that's more of an exception to the rule and even then it doesn't really matter. You could have a friggin mythic for all I care, people are still going to look at your job and invite you as a support and a BRD clone.

No matter how much I or anyone else pimps out their RDM to be a solid melee DD, I am still only going to be invited when they need someone for heals/Haste/Refresh. If I can accept that, everyone else should be able to as well. People do not look for RDMs when they want a DD, the same way they don't look for a COR.

Again, there's nothing wrong with trying to do good damage, just so long that you realize that you are generally going to be the only one that cares.
#27 Jul 06 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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COR doing 15% of the damage does not necessarily mean that your killspeed, or EXP rate, would drop by 15% if he were to stop.


Admitedly true but I didn't want to try to calculate the killspeed would be. Arguably that's 80% on the puller in the great scheme of meripo. But 15% damage added will speed kills and that potentially will speed xp/hr assuming you are not outkilling your pops or pullers ability to keep up.
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#28 Jul 06 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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DubiousNinja wrote:
That argument really doesn't hold much water. I'm not saying you should only stand there and roll, but it doesn't gimp the party if you do (level with 5 people and no COR and then level with a COR that only rolls, tell me how much of a difference it makes. Protip: It's going to be significant) A COR rolling vs. a COR that does nothing is a big difference. I never said you shouldn't be active and I dare you to find a statement I made that says "just stand there and roll." I am saying that you're not gimp if you don't spend 100K/level shooting bullets.


I don't think you or any other COR "needs" to spend 100k per level but why would I want a COR over a BRD if you're going to focus on buffing? Even if a party has 1 BRD I'd want a 2nd BRD over a COR who isn't going to DD.

That upwards of 100k per level I'm willing to spend has gotten me repeat invites from people who make parties I know won't be a risk for good EXP/hr.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 6:04pm by Zagen
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#29 Jul 06 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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jainaproud wrote:
There are some jobs you shouldn't ever level as a 1st job.

Pretty much like SMN (fenrir) or PUP (expensives attachements). COR shouldn't be used as 1st job to 75 because of the sheer cost, it was the case for NIN or RNG too but the prices seriously fell and made it viable.

Would you accept a BRD who doesn't got ballad2 or the last minuets because "they are too expensives"? Hint : the answer is no.

COR was my first 75. ****, it was my first job past 30. I just had to farm a lot, and decline party invites when I didn't have what I needed (often). Thanks to not ******** on the job class, I had more than a handful of offers to pay for my ammo, just to get me to party..
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#30 Jul 06 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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It seems to me that the more I read here it is you DD on COR or gtfo. It would seem I would get ******* out all the time because when I hit 75 I wont be DDing all the time. I purchased a peacemaker for when I pull, probably will be most merit parties I'm in because I only pull for friends, and I hate lfp but, I got a Corsair's Gun for when I do get the chance to DD. Atm it seems that some people would rather someone pull with a 600 delay gun just so they can be a DD. Another thing is I am one of those corsairs that use the af weapon but that is because I am pulling and do not want to waste loads of time with a huge delay gun.

Just a question am I doing it "wrong" b/c I don't go full dd on cor and probably wont (tho I can, have decent amount of gil left and have most sj up to 37)? When I get enough tp to shoot off a slug shot I break 650 easy with a arguably cheap set of racc gear, most expensive has to be spectacles.

A side note. People on Carbuncle will invite you whether or not you fit the "JP only or English party: X", I can speak very very limited Japanese but it is just bits and phrases but I do not understand konji so it really isn't a fit into the jp only party but I have at points gotten invites by them. They just care that you are a buffer. Almost seems if you can roll idgaf that you are naked (<,<; I ish geared tho).
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#31 Jul 06 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Just a question am I doing it "wrong" b/c I don't go full dd on cor and probably wont (tho I can, have decent amount of gil left and have most sj up to 37)? When I get enough tp to shoot off a slug shot I break 650 easy with a arguably cheap set of racc gear, most expensive has to be spectacles.


Your aren't doing it wrong at all, you play how you want to play. I used to take what a lot of people on this board say as fact, but I have come to find out that the people on this board actually only represent about 5% of the actual playerbase mentality in the game.

Most people won't give a second look at whether you are even shooting your gun. We are looked at as an alternative to Bards, and in most cases you may be asked to pull, but that is the extent of the shooting that is generally expected.


I showed up as a COR/THF to a pick up group once and spent the majority of the next 4 hours Sneak Attacking and Trick Attacking with an Archer Knife when i wasn't rolling. I threw darts for pulls. The next night I got invited by the party leader to group again, and the week after that I got invited by someone else who was in the party. Corsair is the least popular job in the game (based on the census) and most people don't even know how our rolls work let alone what else our job can do. And those that do know generally care little about what we do beyond roll. I actually get asked to come /WHM a lot, and do so, though I tend to do /RNG when I don't mind adding to the party's damage.
#32 Jul 06 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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Your aren't doing it wrong at all, you play how you want to play. I used to take what a lot of people on this board say as fact, but I have come to find out that the people on this board actually only represent about 5% of the actual playerbase mentality in the game.


True. But if you ever want to get invited to do things with those sorts, you need to up your game.

I take any invite because I'm not a picky person. I've seen the difference between parties that don't care what the COR does and parties with good players that do care. It's the difference between night and day when it comes to meripo.

You can plug along getting decent xp on COR in PUG's with people that don't care or you can get in a great party of good players, do DD and outstrip any xp you've ever made before.

When people say you are doing it wrong, its because they've done it right and it is amazing. But in the end you can do it any way you want and still get xp and invites. It's the naked BRD saga all over again. Cheap COR's bandwagoning the job to get easy party invites and then not making the effort to perform well because "you don't have to".

I don't think its in the best interest of the job or of the forum posters to endorse poor CORmanship. SO that is why we get in a huff about how to play the job. It's a versatile job for sure, but every approach has good and bad ways to go about it. Even COR/WHM requires tools for the task whether that's MP gear, QD gear or even shooting gear.
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#33 Jul 07 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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Oh I think the other party members care. They just don't know that they care. They assume that the great xp is do to the buffs making them uber-powerful and forget that the COR DD is also adding about 15% to the party damage.


I've had numerous parties pull in awesome EXP even when the COR was doing nothing but buffs and QDs (QDs including the occasional add control). Just because the COR might have been doing 15% of the mob's life doesn't mean that the other melees are going to take much longer to get rid of that 15% themselves, especially if a BRD is also present.

Bottom line: if BRDs can get away with contributing little to no direct damage themselves and still produce a party getting good EXP, so can COR. Not that I advocate doing this, just saying that if you think people look at COR and think "damage", you're deluding yourselves just as much as the wannabe RDM-melee is.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:47pm by Fynlar


SSSSHHHHHHH!!!!! if people realize that gcolibri XP/hr is capped by repop time and is generally the same 2 great DD + 2 leech + 2 support, 3 great DD + 1 leech, + 2 support, 2 great DD + 1 leech + 1 D/C-or-AFK + 2 support, the whole foundation of our performance maximizing society will collapse.

seriously, if you have a BRD and 2 other good melee, chances are your DD contribution isn't speeding much up. "but COR is a great DD!!" no, listen. this principle extends to any DD; you could join a good party, go AFK, and it wouldn't be that much different than if you hadn't, as long as all 5 of your party members are good. this is true whether you're a COR or a MNK or a NIN or a SAM or (etc). you don't need 6 maximizers to infinite chain colibri. you can do it with 1 maximizer, a competent puller and healer, and the rest scrubs.

the two caveats are: 1) if you can DD, why not? it's not going to hurt anything, do it. 2) as someone mentioned in that last COR thread i posted in, COR DD (like ANY maximizer DD!!!) can be a real difference maker in a PT where all the DDs are average or below average (this is not rare for pickup parties).

what i'm saying is fynlar's point about "don't kid yourself into thinking people care about your DD or even into thinking it's making much of a difference," point is not only true, but generalizes. i'm happy to make a bad/average party great, but i know very well that meriting is easy enough that i can go afk smoke and come back in a good party only to find they kept chain without me, if i'm with 5 good players. there's only so many pops at a merit camp, and in fortunate circumstances, it's not your big swinging epeen chopping them all down.

"what does any of that have to do with anything?"

eh, i don't know. if a COR doesn't DD and the party keeps chain, i don't give a sh*t. maybe because i get drunk and party with JP so much. if a COR does DD (rare), all the better. if a COR started requesting songs that benefited them at the expense of the 2-3 standard DDs, they'd get a prompt "lol no":D.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 4:08am by milich
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#34 Jul 07 2009 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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seriously, if you have a BRD and 2 other good melee, chances are your DD contribution isn't speeding much up. "but COR is a great DD!!" no, listen. this principle extends to any DD; you could join a good party, go AFK, and it wouldn't be that much different than if you hadn't, as long as all 5 of your party members are good. this is true whether you're a COR or a MNK or a NIN or a SAM or (etc). you don't need 6 maximizers to infinite chain colibri. you can do it with 1 maximizer, a competent puller and healer, and the rest scrubs.


In that case you are in the wrong camp. When I have an uber party setup we don't do birds. We do the top mamool camp and get far better xp. If you are ripping through the repop timers, you don't need to sit back, you need to find a better camp.
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#35 Jul 07 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
seriously, if you have a BRD and 2 other good melee, chances are your DD contribution isn't speeding much up. "but COR is a great DD!!" no, listen. this principle extends to any DD; you could join a good party, go AFK, and it wouldn't be that much different than if you hadn't, as long as all 5 of your party members are good. this is true whether you're a COR or a MNK or a NIN or a SAM or (etc). you don't need 6 maximizers to infinite chain colibri. you can do it with 1 maximizer, a competent puller and healer, and the rest scrubs.


In that case you are in the wrong camp. When I have an uber party setup we don't do birds. We do the top mamool camp and get far better xp. If you are ripping through the repop timers, you don't need to sit back, you need to find a better camp.


also doable with 5 members. there are no "better camps" than most above average parties can top off unless you have a vacant mamool ja staging point or kill wivre/mamool/birds from middle and below. even if not topped off, the XP/hr difference is usually like 22k~ becoming 25k~ or so anyway.

it's a self-congratulating myth that parties with "pro" melee get significantly more XP than a pickup party with 1-2 great DD and pullers/healers that are competent enough not to fumble the chain. yes, more DoT = more XP/hr and also = safer infinite chain, but don't overstate how hard it is to maximize or near-maximize XP in a merit party.

i mean, this is especially the case if you're talking COR DD*3 BRD RDM. i would hope anyone who doesn't flat out refuse to pt with 4x DD + 2 support has, over the years, infinite chained with 4x DD + 2 support. for argument's sake, suppose there's a party with 4 DD each doing 25% party damage each. now suppose they lose a DD and pick up a COR, who sings chaos roll and COR roll, and may or may not melee.

what does chaos roll alone contribute? supposing for ease that it's 25% ATT average you're adding and we're not talking about GK SAMs, that's around a 30% increase in the remaining 3 melee's damage. so you have

25*1.3 +
25*1.3 +
25*1.3 +
=
97.5

so whether the COR melees or not, the party is already infinite chain if 4 DD was infinite chain.

to put it another way, i wonder if you realize just how different many parties are in terms of damage capability, but how relatively the same they are in terms of XP/hr. i mean, if your damage is being held back because someone else WSd faster than you, your party isn't really being limited by damage capability, or at least not the way one would naturally think of it. it's not that you just can't do damage fast enough to kill the mob. it's that someone did it already and you have to move to the next mob to unload that TP.

---

i'm not saying any of this to discourage COR DD or melee maximizing (in fact, i encourage both). i do think you should avoid overstating the difference either makes in a party where the melees and mages are very good. the fact is that a great party would still be great if it lost 1 melee, b/c this game has significantly more potential for beefing up the player than it provides difficulty, both in merits and events.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 11:36am by milich
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#36 Jul 07 2009 at 7:45 AM Rating: Default
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chewzer wrote:
Dryr wrote:
This holds especially true for people looking at cor before they have their first 75, the money simply isn't there to shoot. Telling people to suck it up and farm or play another job are worthless posters. The job is insanely expensive and the dps is far from reflective of that fact. When people ask about dd/pulling/buffs/subs, stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is and a spare 100k to spend on every pt in food/ammo.


It's called an 'Advanced Job' for a reason.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 1:00pm by chewzer


You mean like Samurai? And Dragoon? And Bard? Yup, Advanced Job totally means expensive and pros only.
#37Esoa, Posted: Jul 07 2009 at 7:54 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why on earth would you want a 2nd BRD instead of a COR who isn't going to DD? COR buffs are better than BRD buffs except for double haste on well geared players.
#38 Jul 07 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Esoa wrote:
Why on earth would you want a 2nd BRD instead of a COR who isn't going to DD? COR buffs are better than BRD buffs except for double haste on well geared players.

2x March is reason enough to take a 2nd BRD over a buff only COR to me, add in a higher accuracy and better recast sleep than Light Shot, better recast Dispel, and it starts to add up. My point is a COR needs to do a lot more than "just buff" to be of higher value than a 2nd BRD.
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#39 Jul 07 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I can only speak for myself but the reason I post about COR's DD capabilities is to educate. LOL hope that doesn't come off as too high n mighty, but its the truth.

Fact: Most non-CORs are completely unaware of what a great COR's ceiling is.

Fact: Most COR's are also unaware of this.

Fact: Most people DO invite COR just for the buffs. Can't argue it. It may be "wrong" or "misguided" but it is the truth.

Solution: Make other CORs and other players in general aware of what a COR is capable of. One way to do this, aside from posting info and answering questions on here, is to pretty much double avg WS dmg of everyone else in the pt. Melees love their numbers. They do. It's true. They love watching big numbers on the screen. The whole point of being a DD is to do lots of damage and post those big numbers. The bigger they are, the better you're becoming (buffs and mob enfeebs aside).

So when a COR comes along and is routinely busting 1450+ slug shots, it actually does tend to get ppl's attention.

Did SSR last night on COR/WHM (again, my salvage group always asks for this). Did PKs room and the LS leader afterward remarked how fast we'd plowed through that room. We almost always have a COR on a run (almost always me, unless we do 2x runs at once then someone else will grab their pirate gear too). I'm the only one of us who plays COR/WHM like a DD though. Having a 4th DD (lineup was and almost always is DRK MNK THF COR BRD RDM) with a WS that does comparable dmg on the fomors and actually superior dmg on the imps.. I'd like to think that played a role in how things went.

So my main reason for posting about it is to open eyes, preferably of up-and-coming CORs, to say "don't settle for being this kind of COR. If you want more, it's out there." I haven't reached my ceiling yet. Most of that is gear-related (still need skadi legs, hands and body, still need enkidu body n feet, tho the feet would be situational.. still need a Legion Scutum).

On top of that, I'm really just starting to understand the potential of QDs. My best QD on something of consequence prior to this week was a 377 ice shot on Cheese Rat. Not bad but then I saw someone else in this forum busting him for 530 lol. Immediately I'm thinking "OK, why cant I do that... he can't possible have THAT much more MAB than I do." Not sure why i never noticed double weather is basically 100% in the ruins, but his pic of the shot dmg had those lil water drops in it and I was like "ohh yeah"

So yesterday we did armed gears and I finally caved in and became one of those CORs who carries all 8 shots now. I used to carry 4 (the bare essentials of light, dark, ice and earth). Especially on armed gears, having all 6 elem ones makes a massive difference. The other COR kept spamming earth shot and predictably did 0 dmg whenever gears wasn't weak to earth. I averaged about 140~145 per shot prior to 50% hp (when gears have a big time magic defense bonus). Once the bonus was off, 330 ice shots were the norm. Water shot? I have no obi yet (working on it) but occasionally I still got the weather bonus and capped out at 463 dmg. I knew from having tried /rng on gears before that it just wasn't all that practical while needing to stay 20 distance away to avoid AOE. So /rdm, HQ staves all around, focused on QD dmg and was still able to toss out cure 3s to anyone who needed them. Worked out great.

I really wish /rdm had paralyna n stuff. I'd go to salvage /rdm in a heartbeat if it did but if I can't paralyna/status cure in our group, not gonna cut it.

Anyway, that QD story is just an example of how posts on here can and should help improve other CORs. There was another thread about how STR, AGI, ratt and gorgets each influenced slug shot's dmg. That thread, combined with me finally getting a parser and seeing i was landing 95%+ of my slugs influenced me to pile on STR and finally go /war to merits. Needless to say my dmg was taken to an entirely new lvl.

So when new or upcoming CORs read these threads, that's the type of stuff they should look for and utilize. Some people may just see "look at me and my dmg" when they read it but that's kinda cynical. I'm betting most CORs don't realize they can solo some pretty big stuff. You almost never see COR mentioned as a good soloer. That's my current COR project. Working on my QD build so I can start soloing some ZNMs. All I really need (you know, aside from stuff like novio that's not readily available to me atm, no sea shell).... is an earth obi and a water obi. Once I get those, I think I'm ready to try it out.

#40 Jul 07 2009 at 10:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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TDGSW wrote:
Well, I can only speak for myself but the reason I post about COR's DD capabilities is to educate. LOL hope that doesn't come off as too high n mighty, but its the truth.


not at all, it's a very nice service. i originally started posting a lot for almost exactly the same reason, except regarding general DDs (and MNK and SAM in particular). as long as you're humble, seeking to disseminate information can never be a bad thing; if you listen to criticism and never stop learning yourself, you can only help others and yourself (even if people think it's "arrogant" to try to educate people).
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#41 Jul 07 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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Zagen wrote:
2x March is reason enough to take a 2nd BRD over a buff only COR to me, add in a higher accuracy and better recast sleep than Light Shot, better recast Dispel, and it starts to add up.

I can tell you that, vs. birds at the very minimum, Light Shot blows Lullaby away when it comes to accuracy. I landed over 600 Light Shots in a row on G.Colibri without a resist... and that was only after I started counting.

As for the idea that COR's damage contribution is superfluous: it depends on the party. For the majority of parties (particularly pickups), even with 2 support, you're probably going to hover around 20-25k. But if you want to try to break the 30k barrier (e.g. killing birds+wivres or mamool+skoffins), you are almost certainly going to need to bring damage to the table.

The only people who think that bird camp is respawn-limited at ~25k are people who aren't good enough to be able to chain wivres. Even if you are limited to one floor, killing all the birds and wivres on that floor will give you 33k/hr before Corsair's Roll.
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#42 Jul 07 2009 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
so whether the COR melees or not, the party is already infinite chain if 4 DD was infinite chain.

Right. Because "infinite chain" is something that actually matters. 6 gimp morons could chain endlessly on G.Colibri. There's a bit of a difference between 15k/hr and 30..

milich wrote:
it's a self-congratulating myth...

The phrase "infinite chain" is the ultimate self-congratulatory myth.



RVW wrote:
The only people who think that bird camp is respawn-limited at ~25k are people who aren't good enough to be able to chain wivres.

This.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:09am by Carrilei
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#43 Jul 07 2009 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
milich wrote:
so whether the COR melees or not, the party is already infinite chain if 4 DD was infinite chain.

Right. Because "infinite chain" is something that actually matters. 6 gimp morons could chain endlessly on G.Colibri. There's a bit of a difference between 15k/hr and 30..

milich wrote:
it's a self-congratulating myth...

The phrase "infinite chain" is the ultimate self-congratulatory myth.



RVW wrote:
The only people who think that bird camp is respawn-limited at ~25k are people who aren't good enough to be able to chain wivres.

This.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:09am by Carrilei


lol you and your amazing elite parties. "i turned my 25k/hr party into 28k/hr" woop de ****. i did an ENM one day and got 2k free XP. (i've also chained wivre, mamool, and colibri in the same party, and FUCK IT DIDN'T CAP ALL MY MERITS IMMEDIATELY WHAT A RIP OFF)

as for infinite chain as ultimate myth, what the **** are you talking about? first of all, infinite chain gcolibri at least at middle bird is 20k minimum, so i don't know what you're talking about with this 15/30 nonsense (surely you're pretty elite though, so maybe i'm talking out of place). second, yeah, 6 gimps can infinite chain, that's my fucking point, stupid. what did you think all that "don't congratulate yourself too much" talk was about? did you think i was saying, "i'm awesome b/c i get lots of XP"? are you literate?

but what am i even talking about, you want to swing epeen, not make reasonable observations about XP party dynamics. i'll bite; in relation to you, i invented epeen. i was infinite chaining (like that phrase?) in KRT before there were corsairs, and i was outparsing everyone i met too (****, i still do). holy **** i think my epeen will explode if i post any more, i better just send this one in and go have a cigarette.
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#44 Jul 07 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I had a parse @ 15k/hr where I was the leading damage dealer.. ****, it's on this forum from way back, and that was infinite chain. I play on 360, so I can't parse, but I can tell you that "infinite chain" as a testament to good efficiency is a joke. Even if I were to take what you said, you act like 20k is the same as 30k+.

And yeah milich, my epeen must be huge playing COR and parsing far less than (good) DD's. Got me there.

That juvenile word works better for the Monks and Samurais of the world. Oh wait...

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:17am by Carrilei
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#45 Jul 07 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
I had a parse @ 15k/hr where I was the leading damage dealer.. ****, it's on this forum from way back, and that was infinite chain. I play on 360, so I can't parse, but I can tell you that "infinite chain" as a testament to good efficiency is a joke. Even if I were to take what you said, you act like 20k is the same as 30k+.

And yeah milich, my epeen must be huge playing COR and parsing far less than (good) DD's. Got me there.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:53am by Carrilei


...and you act like 30k+ has anywhere near as much to do with DD as it does to do with COR roll. seriously, meriting is easy. get over it, maximize if you like it, buy your ammo, post your parses. don't kid yourself.
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#46 Jul 07 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Default
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milich wrote:

...and you act like 30k+ has anywhere near as much to do with DD as it does to do with COR roll. seriously, meriting is easy. get over it, maximize if you like it, buy your ammo, post your parses. don't kid yourself.

And where the @#%^ did I state that you pompous jerkoff?

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:36am by Carrilei
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#47 Jul 08 2009 at 12:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry, but I can't believe half the things i've read in this thread.

COR DD is nothing like RDM DD, We don't want to fit every single role the game has to offer and convince everyone were great at it. You'd think RDM's would be happy with healing, de-buffing/supporting, solo-ing, and tanking.

All of our armor has RACC, RATT, ACC on. Our highest ranked weapon is a Gun. Yes, we can make a /WHM setup with a **** load of MP, but I could do the same thing MNK/WHM. SE didn't intend us to play like a Brd (yes i know, SE did'nt intend NIN to tank, or SAM to be the uber DD it is in initial design).

Ofc our DD does'nt come close to that of a pure DD like SAM, WAR or MNK, but if it did, don't you think we'd be the most broken job in the game being able to buff like a BRD, and DD like a SAM?

A BRD can half *** pty's by just singing 2 sets of songs, and standing still for 2mins, a COR could do a 3 roll rotation and stand still for the rest of the time, the thf could pull, but that pty would not be great. It would get the job done, but it could have been so much better.

If you want to level COR, but can't afford the gil to be one of those uber COR's that get remembered by other good players in this game, you can at least shoot standard bullets, or pull, or /DNC, keeping your Marksmanship capped for a day when you possibly could become a great COR.

COR is one job I have taken unbelievable pride in, because like thf, pup, blu and other jobs, there are so many crappy COR's out there, its nice to know that your doing the job well.

And for the record, Good cor;s do get noticed, theres been times i've been asked by ppl as soon as I log on sometimes if I could play COR for them. Good cor's attract the attention of good players, normal standard buffing onry no gun cor's still attract attention, but the attention they attract is just sub-standard players who will do anything for cor buffs in their crappy 'STR Rings > ACC rings' pty's.
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Taking a break.
#48 Jul 08 2009 at 12:03 AM Rating: Default
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Carrilei wrote:
milich wrote:

...and you act like 30k+ has anywhere near as much to do with DD as it does to do with COR roll. seriously, meriting is easy. get over it, maximize if you like it, buy your ammo, post your parses. don't kid yourself.

And where the @#%^ did I state that you pompous jerkoff?

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 3:58am by Carrilei


OH MY GOD YOURE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH

BECAUSE WHEN I DISAGREED WITH YOU, THAT TOTALLY

DOESN'T

GIVE

YOU

THE

RIGHT

TO ASSUME THAT I MEANT THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SAID!

I MEAN, ****, SURE YOUR WHOLE POINT WAS THAT ANY GIMP CAN CHAIN INFINITELY AND GET WELL OVER 20K XP. AND I WAS SAYING THAT IT TAKES A PRO TO GET 30K. AND YOU SAID THAT COR ROLL WAS THE MAIN DIFFERENCE. BUT DON'T PUT FUCKING WORDS IN MY MOUTH WAHHHHHHH LET'S ARGUE
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retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#49 Jul 08 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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5,159 posts
Great, we agree, sort of, just know I'm rolling my eyes whenever you mention infinite chains.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:38am by Carrilei
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Corsair75
Pandemonium Asura...

ffxiah
#50 Jul 08 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
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Most people are just too fanatic about optimal choices.

COR/WHM is a perfectly fine choice. It however is not the best choice.
#51 Jul 08 2009 at 5:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
ANY GIMP CAN CHAIN INFINITELY AND GET WELL OVER 20K XP



Sure, but not with 5 other gimps.
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Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
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