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Reminder to 75 COR poseters re: dd corFollow

#1 Jul 06 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're a COR who doesn't deal damage, you've failed at the job class.



I really don't understand why most of the posters on this site shout this in every thread they can.

Yes, Cor should dd. The af has ranged stats (so does nin, even better in fact) everyone understands Cor's main dps weapon is gun.

But, it seems like the readers here leveled the job yrs ago and don't understand that Cor dd is NOT common among cor still leveling or endgame.

Please stop belittling people like many OP here that are just curious about Cor DD - the fact is, it's not something that they would likely know about even after leveling several jobs to 75 and pting with MANY other cors during that time.

This holds especially true for people looking at cor before they have their first 75, the money simply isn't there to shoot. Telling people to suck it up and farm or play another job are worthless posters. The job is insanely expensive and the dps is far from reflective of that fact. When people ask about dd/pulling/buffs/subs, stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is and a spare 100k to spend on every pt in food/ammo.
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#2 Jul 06 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Dryr wrote:
But, it seems like the readers here leveled the job yrs ago and don't understand that Cor dd is NOT common among cor still leveling or endgame.


Common =/= correct. COR DD is both practical and useful in the vast majority of endgame events. My COR DDs for Einherjar, sea, limbus, sky trigs, Nyzul Isle, etc. Sky gods is the only event my shell does where I don't, but I'm usually on WAR for those ayway.

Quote:
stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is


They should. Leveling NIN WAR RNG DNC is not hard, doesn't cost much, and doesn't even take very long with level sync and fields of valor now. Not having all of those subs at 37 is pure, sheer, utter laziness.

Edit: I suck at typing.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 3:51pm by KaishenRamuh
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#3Mjrna, Posted: Jul 06 2009 at 9:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Opinion =/= Correct either.
#4 Jul 06 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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There are some jobs you shouldn't ever level as a 1st job.

Pretty much like SMN (fenrir) or PUP (expensives attachements). COR shouldn't be used as 1st job to 75 because of the sheer cost, it was the case for NIN or RNG too but the prices seriously fell and made it viable.

Would you accept a BRD who doesn't got ballad2 or the last minuets because "they are too expensives"? Hint : the answer is no.
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#5 Jul 06 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I said it before and i'll say it again: If you took COR's gun away, invites wouldn't change one iota. If you take away the rolls, however, you would never get an invite.
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#6 Jul 06 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
With fields of Valor in place it took me only a day and a half to get a job from 1-37 ... it's ridiculously easy!

/whm
/rdm
/war

I did these 3 in about 2 weeks on and off. Playing for maybe a few hours a night. It's an expensive job to play in the most effective way possible. It's up to the individual if they want to give rolls and do "nothing", or give rolls and contribute the ~15% party damage (an average cor should be able to acheive this).

I wouldn't call myself a casual player, yet I'm not as hardcore as most. I still manage to farm enough gil and obtain good quality gear through events (Sky, Sea, Limbus +1's, Einherjar). The only thing I don't have time for is Skadi which I doubt I'll ever attain.

Limbus - easy and not time consuming to +1 your AF

Sky - cmon, it takes 1-2 days a week to get a full kirin pop set if you have a good group, C.legs and C.hands are invaluable.

Sea - Granted access takes a long time to get, but you can solo the Grah chips AND solo the NM for the fortitude torque! Not to mention the Obi's for QD and the gorgets for WS acc and atk.

Einherjar - They've made it so even if you lose you get ampules for the belt! Another short event that takes an hour or 2 each time you try (ampules guaranteed if you kill even just 1 wave).

Dynamis - This one actually does kinda suck, but with the increased drop rates in the northlands, it's not that bad. I got the hat and the coat in about 2-3 weeks.


So access to gear issues? aside from excuses, I don't see any reason anyone can't do at least one of these at a time. Even the most casual corsair would have access to some of these events. If a person asks the question, posters will tell them their answer. Just because you don't like that the answer is telling you to go level X subjob, or go farm X gil, doesn't mean the answer is instantly wrong. You just don't like it. No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to play a certain way. However opinions were asked, opinions were given. You can't preface a question with "how should I" or "what should I" to only be upset that the answer you receive is telling you to level another job or to farm for bullet money, or even to skillup a craft.

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#7 Jul 06 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Dryr wrote:
This holds especially true for people looking at cor before they have their first 75, the money simply isn't there to shoot. Telling people to suck it up and farm or play another job are worthless posters. The job is insanely expensive and the dps is far from reflective of that fact. When people ask about dd/pulling/buffs/subs, stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is and a spare 100k to spend on every pt in food/ammo.


It's called an 'Advanced Job' for a reason.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 1:00pm by chewzer
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#8 Jul 06 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dryr wrote:
Yes, Cor should dd. The af has ranged stats (so does nin, even better in fact) everyone understands Cor's main dps weapon is gun.

And you know what, from about 18-40 the best way to DD on NIN is to throw ninja stars. SE seems to have envisioned NIN to be a ninja star throwing ninjitsu enfeebler but the playerbase saw NIN as a tank and that became the "accepted norm". Just like a DD COR is the "accepted norm" in almost everyone's eyes, at least everyone I've partied with.

Dryr wrote:
But, it seems like the readers here leveled the job yrs ago and don't understand that Cor dd is NOT common among cor still leveling or endgame.


I leveled COR and am leveling it off of the same gil funding methods I used to get SCH from 1-75. Nothing has changed other than having a job at 75 means I can help my LS with Dynamis, Sky, Sea, and missions. None of these things really net me any gil, I get gear I want but since I won't spend the hours farming crap others do I don't see the returns they do and rightfully so.

Dryr wrote:
Please stop belittling people like many OP here that are just curious about Cor DD - the fact is, it's not something that they would likely know about even after leveling several jobs to 75 and pting with MANY other cors during that time.


Why wouldn't they? I learned that to level cor I would need up 50k for each level from30-50 where it jumped to an average of 100k at least after 54 and lesser colibri. These numbers are high because I take into account food, ammo, and deaths. But I got these numbers by reading posts on these forums, looking at how much things cost on the AH, looking up alternative places to buy things to save a little bit of gil. All of these things I did before or while leveling COR.

Now this sounds crazy and at first, it did to me too but then I figured out knowing what I do about making gil, how to average 50-100k a week in income to keep leveling COR when I wasn't doing "endgame" things, leveling subs or other random jobs in my limited playtime.

If I learned how to do this and it isn't much harder than learning the basics of how to play COR, why shouldn't I expect other CORs to do the same?

Dryr wrote:
This holds especially true for people looking at cor before they have their first 75, the money simply isn't there to shoot. Telling people to suck it up and farm or play another job are worthless posters. The job is insanely expensive and the dps is far from reflective of that fact. When people ask about dd/pulling/buffs/subs, stop pretending like everyone has every sub there is and a spare 100k to spend on every pt in food/ammo.

I bolded a key part, why is this true? I sucked it up and farmed. Having a level 75 job doesn't mean having a bank of millions of gil to blow on a job. It just means you can do events that take time away from farming and leveling another job. It also means you spend more time on that 75 job recouping exp lost doing said events.
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#9 Jul 06 2009 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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But I got these numbers by reading posts on these forums


People come here asking for this same info, but are judged instead of receiving it..
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#10 Jul 06 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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People are judged because they come in the forums with a holier than thou attitude and start acting like they're God's gift to whatever job they're band-wagoning for the month.
If I walked into your house and called you and your whole family a bunch of worthless ******** for not force feeding me and buying me everything I need to be rich and successful, you'd respond the same way.
#11 Jul 06 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dryr wrote:
Quote:
But I got these numbers by reading posts on these forums


People come here asking for this same info, but are judged instead of receiving it..


Actually I got what I needed from the Stickies and reading older posts comparing stats on various gears, and it wasn't just info from these forums it was all my research combined. I haven't had to really ask any questions because others have already asked it before, or it was common sense why X armor is better than Y armor.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 12:30pm by Zagen
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#12 Jul 06 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, you should try to do some damage. Just remember that no matter how good you are at it, the vast majority of people are going to view you like they do a BRD. Bottom line -- when people invite a COR, they are doing it to fill a support/"BRD" slot, not a DD slot. And nobody ever cares about a BRD's damage. They aren't going to magically start caring about yours. Feel free to spend 100k or so per party on consumables if you like; just don't be surprised if you find that the only person that cares is you.
#13 Jul 06 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I wanted to add something: What kind of parties are you in that gives you enough time to shoot while keeping-up 4 rolls and pulling? In the parties I join, we always have a BRD and with ToAU/WoTG camps I am finding stuff dies way too fast to bother even trying to TP. I usually find I can gather TP from pulls and then dump it before I leave to pull again.

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#14 Jul 06 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Feel free to spend 100k or so per party on consumables if you like; just don't be surprised if you find that the only person that cares is you.


Oh I think the other party members care. They just don't know that they care. They assume that the great xp is do to the buffs making them uber-powerful and forget that the COR DD is also adding about 15% to the party damage.

Good COR's plus good party members > Bad CORs plus good party members.

Unfortunately unless you parse, you'll rarely be aware of all that a COR can do for a party.

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#15 Jul 06 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I wanted to add something: What kind of parties are you in that gives you enough time to shoot while keeping-up 4 rolls and pulling? In the parties I join, we always have a BRD and with ToAU/WoTG camps I am finding stuff dies way too fast to bother even trying to TP. I usually find I can gather TP from pulls and then dump it before I leave to pull again.


You have a BRD, why are you pulling?

If you are sole support and pulling, I agree you don't have time to shoot or melee. But if you have a BRD, they should be pulling and you should be meleeing. Likely in those situations you can run a 3 roll rotation with Evokers, COR, Chaos or Evokers Hunters Chaos depending on how good your DD's are. In that instance, you have plenty of time to DD.
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#16 Jul 06 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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DubiousNinja wrote:
I wanted to add something: What kind of parties are you in that gives you enough time to shoot while keeping-up 4 rolls and pulling? In the parties I join, we always have a BRD and with ToAU/WoTG camps I am finding stuff dies way too fast to bother even trying to TP. I usually find I can gather TP from pulls and then dump it before I leave to pull again.


If you have a bard, why are you pulling?

Edit: lol... Dartagnann beat me to it. ;p

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 3:34pm by chewzer
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Chew is being a lot more level-headed regarding the whole issue, which is strange because he's probably drunk.
#17 Jul 06 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
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If you have a bard, why are you pulling?

Low level burns in East Ronfaure [S], we have the BRD sub WHM and assist with cures. Running a 3 DD /NIN rotation we need the extra healing. Easier to pull and let the BRD back-up.

Quote:
Oh I think the other party members care. They just don't know that they care. They assume that the great xp is do to the buffs making them uber-powerful and forget that the COR DD is also adding about 15% to the party damage.

Good COR's plus good party members > Bad CORs plus good party members.

Unfortunately unless you parse, you'll rarely be aware of all that a COR can do for a party.

Depends on the set-up really. Popular method of leveling with a certain LS on Fenrir is to bring CORs at level 40 to Nyzul Mamool camp. COR does Evoker's, SAM and COR rolls. With a BRD, RDM and 3 SAMs (MNKs, /SAM, etc.) this exp is insanely fast. Can go from 40-50 on COR in a very, very short time without the party suffering. The exp continues past that. You can go from 40-75 this way much faster than a lot of other ways.

People invite CORs for the buffs, not the pew pew. I'm not saying COR can't DD, i've seen some CORs that do amazing dmg, but the majority of the people would invite them even if the COR didn't shoot and the party was aware of the damage loss.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 2:44pm by DubiousNinja
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#18 Jul 06 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh I think the other party members care. They just don't know that they care. They assume that the great xp is do to the buffs making them uber-powerful and forget that the COR DD is also adding about 15% to the party damage.


I've had numerous parties pull in awesome EXP even when the COR was doing nothing but buffs and QDs (QDs including the occasional add control). Just because the COR might have been doing 15% of the mob's life doesn't mean that the other melees are going to take much longer to get rid of that 15% themselves, especially if a BRD is also present.

Bottom line: if BRDs can get away with contributing little to no direct damage themselves and still produce a party getting good EXP, so can COR. Not that I advocate doing this, just saying that if you think people look at COR and think "damage", you're deluding yourselves just as much as the wannabe RDM-melee is.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:47pm by Fynlar
#19 Jul 06 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've had numerous parties pull in awesome EXP even when the COR was doing nothing but buffs and QDs (QDs including the occasional add control). Just because the COR might have been doing 15% of the mob's life doesn't mean that the other melees are going to take much longer to get rid of that 15% themselves, especially if a BRD is also present.


Arguably you could pull in great experience if the COR just DD'd and rolled COR roll.
But it would still be better exp if the COR did everything he could which is roll and contribute damage. 15% faster is 15% faster whether its noticed or not.

As a COR I've had all sorts of parties, but the best ones are the ones that had a BRD puller and good DD's and me as a COR/DD. They are the only ones where I've hit the 20k/hr mark. Never done it when I was either sole support or needed to help backup heal.
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#20 Jul 06 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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just saying that if you think people look at COR and think "damage", you're deluding yourselves just as much as the wannabe RDM-melee is.

You know you're opening yourself up to the "I saw a COR with full Skadi and 'xyz' gear out-dmg 'xyz' DD," right? lol
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#21 Jul 06 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
Fynlar wrote:
Yeah, you should try to do some damage. Just remember that no matter how good you are at it, the vast majority of people are going to view you like they do a BRD. Bottom line -- when people invite a COR, they are doing it to fill a support/"BRD" slot, not a DD slot. And nobody ever cares about a BRD's damage. They aren't going to magically start caring about yours. Feel free to spend 100k or so per party on consumables if you like; just don't be surprised if you find that the only person that cares is you.



Sooooo it's ok to gimp yourself because other people won't notice... People do notice, the argument is that they don't invite because of the damage.


DubiousNinja wrote:
Quote:
just saying that if you think people look at COR and think "damage", you're deluding yourselves just as much as the wannabe RDM-melee is.

You know you're opening yourself up to the "I saw a COR with full Skadi and 'xyz' gear out-dmg 'xyz' DD," right? lol


And yes, while an average cor can and should be able to parse ~15% ... a good cor can and should be able to parse ~20% It's not that hard with the right gear and roll cycle. (I'm strictly referring to merits here though)


*edit* Speeling >.<!

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 2:17pm by Spikido
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#22 Jul 06 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Dryr wrote:
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If you're a COR who doesn't deal damage, you've failed at the job class.


I really don't understand why most of the posters on this site shout this in every thread they can.


I don't think most of the posters here DO really say that. What they really say is that you should be doing SOMETHING besides just standing there and rolling. If you're only rolling and standing around, you completely suck. Plain and simple. Is it possible to get invites from desperate people with low standards (or high desire to get e-peen WS numbers)? Yes. But you **** well better be doing SOMETHING productive in addition to your rolls.

Main ways people do that:

1. /RNG (or /WAR) and DDing. A lot of people like this and it's a very obvious choice, because COR has access to quite a bit of gear that is well suited for adding damage. You should at the very least be prepared to do so, in the event your party has a puller already (so COR/NIN is less useful) and doesn't need a lot of extra support (COR/DNC is less useful if you already have a lot of support - say, a DNC or /DNC in party, or multiple mages - you'd be better off adding damage instead of even more support).

Note that DD becomes much more about gaining TP for WS at later levels, but you will indeed be spending a lot of time shooting your gun in the mid levels. Once you get a multi-hit weapon (M.Kris or Joyeuse), ammo costs decrease because melee is much more efficient than ranged DD. Some of the higher level single hit daggers are reasonable options too, stuff like Jambiya and Behemoth Knife. A COR who pays attention to WS and rolls and uses a single hit weapon is a **** of a lot better than one who rolls and stands around. You really need to be shooting for TP from 22 to AT LEAST Slug Shot level (54? Can't remember off the top of my head) though. Your WS are simply too weak, and you'll get pretty good damage from /RA to add to your party far more than... just standing there and rolling. And you should at least have a solid ranged set for situations where you might want to be at a distance, as it comes up a lot for any COR no matter what your preference is.

2. /NIN and pulling. I actually kinda enjoy pulling sometimes, and though some here hate it, COR is at least capable of doing it (very well at merit camps, not as well prior to that but still certainly CAPABLE). Note that this still requires gil. You're still gonna be using consumables to pull, and at pre-merit levels you have plenty of time to pop off a couple /ra during the fight too. You're also going to be spending gil on ninja tools. ****, I even have some nice evasion pieces to go along with my capped evasion skill for when I pull.

3. /DNC and becoming an uber-support character. Box/Quick Step, Drain Sambas, emergency spot healing with cures. Add that to a little DD and the rolls, and you're doing a ton for your party. Potentially the cheapest way to go too, as you'll want to be in melee range to keep up sambas and use steps. A good low delay dagger or a multihit weapon (M.Kris or Joyeuse) are useful.

4. Japanese would say /WHM and backup healing is a good option, though it's generally not accepted by the english-speaking COR community outside of lazy people who just want an excuse to stand on the backline and occasionally throw out a cure. Even if you do think that's a good idea (I don't, but for the sake of argument let's say you truly wanted to play the COR/WHM role and not be a gimp), you'll need to invest in some MP and mage-type gear.

5. Focus on adding as much Quick Draw damage as possible with /RDM or /BLM. Very specific situations though, generally for endgame HNM type mobs that are weak to magic damage, and your ranged or melee attacks aren't as useful.


People whining about "it's expensive" are also annoying. By complaining about costs, you're pretty much admitting that you think the stuff that costs money is useful. Otherwise, why complain? If you don't like the idea of needing to earn gil, and you're just interested in buffing people and supporting without adding DD, BRD is a much more affordable option that might be a better fit for you.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 5:57pm by Anza
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#23 Jul 06 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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I think what we need to factor into this whole conversation is, what is the person's play-style like? Yes, I can't disagree that a COR who shoots and is able to keep up all buffs is going to be more effective than a COR who only does one or the other. But, not everyone plays the same. There is an ideal way to play and then there is an individual way to play.

The difference is that playing as just a buffer is still going to net an exp party a significant amount of exp/hr. It's not the same as a DD who comes in the worst gear you can think of and eats the wrong food. There is acceptable and then there is "wtf are you doing?"

When I talk about play-style, there are several factors to consider:

1)How much time do they have to play? Not everyone can spend 8-10 hours farming, but they can spend a couple hours doing Nyzul, Einherjar, etc. So why should they be put to a ridiculous standard of gear and expendables expense to please the masses?

2)Do they enjoy leveling? I think people forgot this somewhere. I have multiple jobs at 75 (count: 4) and I love COR, but I absolutley despise leveling. I love merits parties, but I can't stand the standard exp party. I take pride in my jobs, but I don't feel I have to spend every dime I have on leveling, i'm going to spend a fortune at 75 anyway. Not everyone is going to play by the same standards as others. COR isn't a job where you gimp your party if you don't shoot, only if you don't roll. On a DD job, this is different, where your only expendable is food.

3)Is this their first 75? Just because it's an advanced job doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to play it. It's a game. Yes they may not have all the nice Rare/EX gear that more experienced players do, or the ability to farm gil at a rate most of us can, but that doesn't mean they should be told "don't play this job because you can't afford it" especially with COR. Who's to say they don't get 75 with it and work their asses off for nice gear? I know this is typically not the case, but gfy if you think you can sit on high and judge them for playing COR as just a support/buffer job.

Again, with a standard DD job it is unaccepatble to at least not gear with stuff that makes sense and eat appropriate food, but that's because their only contribution to the party is DD. COR doesn't "need" to DD to be effective. Can it DD? Sure. Will the party suffer because it only rolls? How about party with 5 people without a COR doing just rolls and see how that works out for you.

Edit: Anza makes a good point about /DNC. I always forget about that sub, even though I spend 90% of my time on NIN as /DNC.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:00pm by DubiousNinja
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#24 Jul 06 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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DubiousNinja wrote:
I think what we need to factor into this whole conversation is, what is the person's play-style like?


If your "play style" is just to roll and do nothing else, there's a name for that. Gimp.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 6:05pm by Anza
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#25 Jul 06 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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That argument really doesn't hold much water. I'm not saying you should only stand there and roll, but it doesn't gimp the party if you do (level with 5 people and no COR and then level with a COR that only rolls, tell me how much of a difference it makes. Protip: It's going to be significant) A COR rolling vs. a COR that does nothing is a big difference. I never said you shouldn't be active and I dare you to find a statement I made that says "just stand there and roll." I am saying that you're not gimp if you don't spend 100K/level shooting bullets.

I gave you credit for your /DNC comment. If you don't have the means to farm lots of gil to be trigger happy, this is a nice way to still be useful.

Edit: Spelling.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 4:19pm by DubiousNinja
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#26 Jul 06 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Arguably you could pull in great experience if the COR just DD'd and rolled COR roll.
But it would still be better exp if the COR did everything he could which is roll and contribute damage. 15% faster is 15% faster whether its noticed or not.


COR doing 15% of the damage does not necessarily mean that your killspeed, or EXP rate, would drop by 15% if he were to stop.

Quote:
Sooooo it's ok to gimp yourself because other people won't notice...


No, I'm just saying don't go nuts over it (which is the mentality indicated by many people around this forum), because no matter what, that's not what people are inviting you for. Try reading that first sentence that you quoted again, as well.

Quote:
You know you're opening yourself up to the "I saw a COR with full Skadi and 'xyz' gear out-dmg 'xyz' DD," right? lol


Yeah, but that's more of an exception to the rule and even then it doesn't really matter. You could have a friggin mythic for all I care, people are still going to look at your job and invite you as a support and a BRD clone.

No matter how much I or anyone else pimps out their RDM to be a solid melee DD, I am still only going to be invited when they need someone for heals/Haste/Refresh. If I can accept that, everyone else should be able to as well. People do not look for RDMs when they want a DD, the same way they don't look for a COR.

Again, there's nothing wrong with trying to do good damage, just so long that you realize that you are generally going to be the only one that cares.
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