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"I can't be bothered to pull, buff and shoot"Follow

#1 Jun 20 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
That was the reply a buddy of mine got in a merit party with a COR.

So my roomate was exping on WHM/SCH at bird camp with a COR(unsure of sub) and 4 melee. Im watching his party on the upper bird camp while Im in my party at lower. He tells me to look at his screen for a sec because he wasn't sure wtf the COR was doing and wanted to know if I thought that his COR sucked.

The COR was the parties puller; he would run up to a colibri, light shot, do <call1> and then stand by the bird waiting for the party to run to him. He did this for every mob. Also, not once did he use RA's or do WS's. He would not even use QD unless he was 'pulling' or if a link occured. He was putting DRK and WAR rolls on the melee and SMN roll on the WHM. Other than that he would just spend large gaps of time litterally standing there doing nothing.

My buddy finally asked him if he wouldnt mind shooting the mob once or twice a fight in the hopes of doing a slug shot every 3 or so birds which he replied with his comment "I can't be bothered to pull, buff and shoot".

When asked if he could atleast do some QD damage once a min he replied "my inventory is too full to have anything but light cards available and besides, if QD is down who's gonna sleep links, you?"

Friend: "Yeah I'll sleep them with repose"

COR: "It will just get reflected onto you then what are you gonna do?"

Friend: "I have sublimation it cant sleep me"

COR: "You're not telling me anything i don't know"

Needless to say the party ended not long after that.

I'm just wondering if we're asking too much of the COR population or was this guy just being a giant dooshe.

Is it too much to ask that you pull, sleep at camp, do a roll, shoot two shots and then go to pull another? (pardon me but I don't know the exact rythm of the COR playstyle)

Its not only that he wasn't providing any damage what so ever but he was actually slowing down the party by sleeping things yards away and making the melees run to him waisting valuable time.

/rant

side note i love cor in party just this one seemed to be a bad egg
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#2 Jun 20 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Bad corsair is Bad.

Anyways, I would have booted him on the spot soon as he said that. You honestly would have been xping faster without him and another melee instead. Light shotting a mob where it pops and standing next to it is just a waste, as the party could just kill what they are fighting and voke pull while running to the next. If you're corsair pulling, should r.attk at max range and pull to camp, stand there till melee pull it off (FIRST PULL ONLY), then go out and start r.attk pull and light shot at camp. I usually don't end up having time to shoot between pulls and buffs, but I tend to have enough tp to slug every 10-12 pulls, even using Peacemaker and its low tp return.
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#3 Jun 20 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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You're not going to get a good COR willing to join a healer ddx4 party.
#4 Jun 20 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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When asked if he could atleast do some QD damage once a min he replied "my inventory is too full to have anything but light cards available and besides, if QD is down who's gonna sleep links, you?"

Friend: "Yeah I'll sleep them with repose"

COR: "It will just get reflected onto you then what are you gonna do?"

Friend: "I have sublimation it cant sleep me"

COR: "You're not telling me anything i don't know"



I like your whm.
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#5 Jun 20 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
Kerberoz wrote:
You're not going to get a good COR willing to join a healer ddx4 party.


I dont understand this trend of party MUST =

2 of :BRD COR
1 of :RDM
3 of :DD

I've had SMN SCH 4 melee go on chain 90

I've also had BRD RDM DD DD DD DD not get past chain 8.

It's like when I want to merit I have to deal with princess level BRD/CORs, full af melees and people not willing to party butcause this one time they got chain 200 with two BRD's and now thats the only way to do things.
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#6 Jun 20 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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You're not going to get a good COR willing to join a healer ddx4 party.


I might be a bad COR then. I'd be willing to join a party like that if the DDs weren't complete fail.

OP: COR pulling isn't like BRD pulling. We can't hand out sleeps every 25 seconds. It's not exactly hard though, and you sure as hell don't sleep a mob and expect the pt to run over to it. You might as well just be roaming.

A party like that shouldn't even be worrying about sleeping links after the first few minutes. There should be nothing to link to when pulling.
#7 Jun 20 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Getting a cor into a 4x dd + 1healer setup isn't that hard, all depends on the corsair. I personally will join them only if one of the dd's will voke pull and roaming camp, or we have a thf or rng that will r.attk. That's just because I don't like pulling for pickup groups, and I put it in seacom that I won't pull. I have no qualms about pulling for friends though. Hell, I've pulled for friends even when one of them was on brd and wanted to have an easy day and not pull.

The reason why I do it is I take pride in my corsair's gear, or how I'm working on gearing him. I haven't been busting my ass to set it up to be nearing top end gear, only to not use any of it. That'd be like asking a DD to not use all their best gear. Yeah, I know COR is supposed to be a support and not a true DD, but we each have our own way of goin.

And for anyone that wants to think, "Well good, I wouldn't invite you anyways if you won't pull" chances are I wouldn't have wanted to even DD for you and I'll get another pt invite doing what I enjoy in no time anyways. If you're not going to enjoy what you're doing, there's no point in doing it. This is a game for relaxing, not a job.
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#8 Jun 20 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Generally, yes it's hard for a COR to pull, DD, and buff a 3 roll rotation. Not really any harder than RDM at merit pties with a 3 roll, but it can get pretty out of hand with a 4 roll.

1: Most CORs will pull with a peacemaker since a 600 delay gun isn't great for pulling. This makes shooting steel bullets almost worthless as the weapon has pretty low damage.

2: Your COR wasn't pulling, so he has no excuse. If he had been doinitrite I could understand, but he wasn't.
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#9TDGSW, Posted: Jun 20 2009 at 3:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) COR can easily pull infinite chain and keep 3 or 4 rolls up at once. Occasionally even add a little DD but that depends on the pt's kill speed. If the pt is strong, there will be no time for the COR to do that and still have the next mob ready. If the pt is slow, a COR can outpull the pt. Happened to me once where I'd pull the second bird back, sleep it and then have time to take a couple of shots at the first bird before it died, then go off to find bird #3.
#10 Jun 20 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I've had SMN SCH 4 melee go on chain 90


Just curious, did the SMN pull and do melee buffs? (hastega, acc?)

If so, I may have to try this out.
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#11 Jun 20 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Sounds like the DDs in your party were lacking. I'm not defending lazy Cors, but I make sure if the party is making me pull, that they can keep up with my pulling. Which means there is only time for me to DD when my tp hits 100 for a Slug. The rest of the time I'm pulling and sleeping mobs and rolling. He should of however been able to pull them to camp before sleeping them. I always tell party leaders that if DDs can't keep up with my pulling then I'm leaving or going back to town and switching to /War and one of the Sams(theres always a fucking Sam) Can switch to /Nin and pull and I'll out dd them.
#12 Jun 20 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Occasionally even add a little DD but that depends on the pt's kill speed. If the pt is strong, there will be no time for the COR to do that and still have the next mob ready. If the pt is slow, a COR can outpull the pt.


That's kinda what I meant. In a proper merit pty a COR generally won't have time to do all 3. They can, but the better the pty the harder it gets.

Quote:
Just curious, did the SMN pull and do melee buffs? (hastega, acc?)

If so, I may have to try this out.


We did this in an altepa pty the other day. PUP DRK SAM PLD WHM SMN, the SMN pulled and held a mob while the pty took down the one that was previously pulled. We got about 9k/hr without a band which is pretty nice.
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#13 Jun 20 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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The major problem with that COR was that he was pulling improperly. Not shooting and not QD'ing beyond Light shot is not the problem. If I'm pulling on COR, there's no way I'm using QD for anything other than Light shot.

Shoot with peacemaker, run to camp, light shot mob, roll, run back out to find next mob, rinse repeat (with some Utsu thrown in there as well). That's all I do in a meripo as puller. Why? because that's all I should have time to do if the DD's are even decent. If I have time to shoot, melee or otherwise engage the mob, then it's time for me to find another party as we won't be chaining past 6.

This COR should have been bringing the mobs back to camp and light shotting them there. That was his major flaw. Otherwise I can't fault his rolls, rationale for not wasting QD charges and not engaging and shooting the mob. But his method of pulling sucked.
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#14 Jun 21 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
Main difference between me and that COR is that I never would have joined your party to begin with. I don't like pulling as COR, and I don't need merits that bad. I might, if there was something I really wanted to merit, offer to go bard instead (which isn't an option for a lot of people), but otherwise I'd be quite content to just hang out in Whitegate until I got a party that met my established standard.

It may sound slightly snobbish, but I have close to 600 merits now and I really don't enjoy meriting at all anymore unless it's fast paced and going well. I don't see a reason why I should bother when I could be doing something I enjoy more, like reading a book, watching a movie, or just talking to friends.
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#15 Jun 21 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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You're not going to get a good COR willing to join a healer ddx4 party.


Anyone that needs a BRD to function (since I know that's what you're insinuating) is a subpar player.
#16 Jun 21 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
The major problem with that COR was that he was pulling improperly. Not shooting and not QD'ing beyond Light shot is not the problem. If I'm pulling on COR, there's no way I'm using QD for anything other than Light shot.

Shoot with peacemaker, run to camp, light shot mob, roll, run back out to find next mob, rinse repeat (with some Utsu thrown in there as well). That's all I do in a meripo as puller. Why? because that's all I should have time to do if the DD's are even decent. If I have time to shoot, melee or otherwise engage the mob, then it's time for me to find another party as we won't be chaining past 6.

This COR should have been bringing the mobs back to camp and light shotting them there. That was his major flaw. Otherwise I can't fault his rolls, rationale for not wasting QD charges and not engaging and shooting the mob. But his method of pulling sucked.


100% perfect reply ^^

Using light shot only is fine (expected, actually), rolls were solid, and there shouldn't be any time to DD with 4x DDs killing mobs. The only dumb thing the OP's COR was doing is light shot on the mobs where they spawn - don't light shot mobs where they spawn, pull them back to the party THEN sleep them. You'll gain a little TP as you pull, for an OCCASIONAL ranged WS. But that's infrequent, and frankly not that impressive of a contribution anyway if you're using a low delay/low damage Peacemaker.

Pulling is best done with a Peacemaker for low delay. If this COR didn't have a Peacemaker, you can still deal with a larger delay gun (and more risk of stolen pulls) or a throwing weapon (good ol' darts), or even ninjutsu if /NIN.

NOW... one important thing the OP never mentioned. COR is a much worse puller if not /NIN, to the point where I won't pull on anything else. I will always ask party leaders who is pulling before I leave for camp, and I will never pull on anything but /NIN. I don't even mind pulling for most random pick up groups, but you damn well better tell me you want me to pull BEFORE we're at camp. I know that many times parties won't tell you in advance, then once everyone's at camp they expect the COR to pull. BAD BAD BAD.

If this COR was on something besides /NIN, maybe /RNG or /WAR, that could explain why they were reluctant to shoot and bring a mob to the party and were instead doing that goofy light shot where the mob spawned. If it was me, I'd have said {Good Bye!} party if they wanted me to pull on non-/NIN and didn't forewarn me. In that case though, you're better off with a roaming party instead of designating someone poorly equipped to pull as a "puller" and then have everyone run to that person anyway. Then your COR can melee/WS and buff with the party.

Busaman the Mighty wrote:
I have to deal with princess level BRD/CORs


PROTIP: The reason you're sub-defaulted on this reply is "princess COR". Especially when you openly admit you don't even really understand COR by coming on to this forum and asking.

I completely respect admitting ignorance and asking questions to people who do know about the job. I do it myself quite a bit. But throwing around stupid talk like "princess COR" = yeah...

Edited, Jun 21st 2009 2:47pm by Anza
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#17 Jun 21 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Default
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I completely respect admitting ignorance and asking questions to people who do know about the job. I do it myself quite a bit. But throwing around stupid talk like "princess COR" = yeah...


Except a lot of them do exist. I call it as I see it.

Why beat around the bush?
#18 Jun 21 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
You're not going to get a good COR willing to join a healer ddx4 party.


Anyone that needs a BRD to function (since I know that's what you're insinuating) is a subpar player.


It's pretty much a certainty that you'll get better EXP/hour with a BRD than without one. Why would you even bother posting this?

Nobody's saying that you NEED a BRD to get EXP. It's that it's better with one than without one, and someone like a COR, who generally spends money to EXP and is highly popular, is probably going to want to join the best party possible, not any party that comes across them.
#19 Jun 21 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Default
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Nobody's saying that you NEED a BRD to get EXP. It's that it's better with one than without one


Not always true, I've had some very useless Bards in my time.

Quote:
Anyone that needs a BRD to function (since I know that's what you're insinuating) is a subpar player.

Is a true statement, I have had many parties get chain 100+ without a bard and not get past chain 6 with one, and vise versa. Its all about how decent the players are.
#20 Jun 21 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I need a brd to experience. Not because I cannot pull, but just because I dont want to. I say why not be picky on COR merit parties, all the really good players want a COR.

Now in pickup exp, being a princess is hard, but many of us just don't do much or any pickup exp/merit parties anymore. I simply don't have the time for it. If a party isn't forming with people I know, I generally don't even change to COR.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with being a princess COR.
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#21 Jun 21 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Busaman the Mighty wrote:
Kerberoz wrote:
You're not going to get a good COR willing to join a healer ddx4 party.


I dont understand this trend of party MUST =

2 of :BRD COR
1 of :RDM
3 of :DD


You really don’t understand this trend? Really don’t understand, or simply don’t want to believe that most people don’t merit for the awesome amounts of fun they are going to have with complete strangers wherein there is a strong possibility one of those strangers is not very good at their job, thereby costing them wasted potential when they could have joined a better party?

Busaman the Mighty wrote:

It's like when I want to merit I have to deal with princess level BRD/CORs, full af melees and people not willing to party butcause this one time they got chain 200 with two BRD's and now thats the only way to do things.


Then don’t merit with those people. I’m sure there are some others who don’t have Brd, Cor, Rdm, Drg, Sam who won’t mind meriting with you in your style.

Furthermore, not trusting your pulling with the delay of a gun weapon when Bard is superior by a large margin to Corsair in pulling is not being princess. I will never pull for a merit party on Corsair. I’ve done it once for friends and managed chain 80+ but hated every second of it. I hate playing an inferior role when 99% of the time, one of the other DDs has Bard and could come pull on it because they are easily replaceable.

Lucavern wrote:
Getting a cor into a 4x dd + 1healer setup isn't that hard, all depends on the corsair. I personally will join them only if one of the dd's will voke pull and roaming camp, or we have a thf or rng that will r.attk. That's just because I don't like pulling for pickup groups, and I put it in seacom that I won't pull. I have no qualms about pulling for friends though. Hell, I've pulled for friends even when one of them was on brd and wanted to have an easy day and not pull.

The reason why I do it is I take pride in my corsair's gear, or how I'm working on gearing him. I haven't been busting my ass to set it up to be nearing top end gear, only to not use any of it. That'd be like asking a DD to not use all their best gear. Yeah, I know COR is supposed to be a support and not a true DD, but we each have our own way of goin.

And for anyone that wants to think, "Well good, I wouldn't invite you anyways if you won't pull" chances are I wouldn't have wanted to even DD for you and I'll get another pt invite doing what I enjoy in no time anyways. If you're not going to enjoy what you're doing, there's no point in doing it. This is a game for relaxing, not a job.


This is exactly how I feel. My job is in more demand than your bandwagon AH 2 hander job, and several of those displaced my thief so I’m already a little bitter. Don’t like the way I like to merit…don’t invite me. You’re honestly doing us both a huge favor.

Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
You're not going to get a good COR willing to join a healer ddx4 party.


Anyone that needs a BRD to function (since I know that's what you're insinuating) is a subpar player.


Anyone that doesn’t want a BRD is a subpar player. Feel free to be your own special snowflake while I get superior exp/hour (which is the point of getting exp, right? – certainly not to make friends with other special snowflakes). No one needs a BRD to function. That’s not quite the same thing as being a COR and declining an invite to a BRD-less party, is it?

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#22 Jun 21 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
doctorugh wrote:
Quote:
I've had SMN SCH 4 melee go on chain 90


Just curious, did the SMN pull and do melee buffs? (hastega, acc?)

If so, I may have to try this out.


Yeah the SMN was doing hastega and predator claws.
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#23 Jun 21 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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It's sorta funny to see how different people view merit pts. Not tryna slam anyone, it's just interesting. I personally don't need merits (at least not till I drag one of my 37s to 75 anyway) but yet I seem to be far less picky than most people who actually do. Ideally, I'd like the traditional RDM, BRD, COR and 3 DD thing (if I could pick, i'd get DRK, DRG and SAM myself), so I can /war and really enjoy myself. Not having a BRD.... is a bit of a downer but not necessarily a dealbreaker for me.

I've pulled in merit pts probably 20ish times I'm guessing. not a ton. Honestly the first time I did it, I actually looked fwd to a new challenge. I've pulled on damn near every job I have at low lvls (even NIN as the damn tank lol) but had never really mass pulled at a merit pt rate before (cept one time on WAR when our BRD dced and I managed chain 33 anyway lol). My first COR chain ever was 80ish or so. It was kinda fun running around, finding mobs, dragging them back without taking dmg and still keeping up rolls. Have pulled 200+ before np. It's definitely a useful skill to have if the need ever arises (meh, you could argue it may never arise, or if it did, you just wouldnt give a crap but w/e lol). I wanna be good at every aspect of the job so occasionally I don't mind dusting off the peacemaker and pulling a long chain. Of course if there's a BRD, I'd say he should pull cuz quite frankly, it makes no sense to have him just sit there n do nothing.

I just genuinely enjoy playing the job. Whether I'm getting 28K/hour isn't the biggest deal. If I'm having fun, that's No. 1. I can have plenty of fun unloading 1600-2100 slugs. One pt I had, the SAM was feeding me tp with shiki every 5 minutes because he knew I had the best WS in the pt lol. If I can get 28k/hour as well, that's obviously even better. Perhaps it's because my work schedule only allows me to play at NA peak hours 2 nights a week and I can't just sit on FFXI for 16 hours a day like some ppl lol. When I have time to play the game, doing something > doing nothing. Just reading a lot of quotes in this thread, you'd almost get the impression people didn't enjoy the job lol. I know that's not the case, but damn, seriously!
#24 Jun 21 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Busaman the Mighty wrote:
"I can't be bothered to pull, buff and shoot".


Why does this sound dirty?

Okay mind out of the gutter. >_<"

That is just one lazy COR, and extremely frugal at that.

I spam bullets in party. >_>"

Everyone has their own playing style but I prefer to be more DD and actually have some fun than stand around and do nothing in between.
#25 Jun 21 2009 at 7:03 PM Rating: Default
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I really don't like to pull as a COR, I will do it but there better be no one better to chose from.

SAM, RNG, THF, WAR, BLU, DNC, DRK, PLD, NIN all have some form of Ranged Attack as well, there ammo is cheaper, and they don't have a roll rotation to worry about, and there are a ton of jobs that can use Darts too. There is almost always one of these jobs in the group as well, and most of them are /NIN while COR is usually /RNG or /WHM. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I want to pull. I don't mind throwing a Light Shot out if there is a Colibri right next to the party, nor do I mind contributing shots to add to dps and Slug Shots as I get them.

For as many people who say COR are crap if they can't pull, buff, and dps in a party, I often wonder why there are very few people who wonder where all the ranged attack weapons on the above jobs have disappeared to.
#26 Jun 21 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Default
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"For as many people who say COR are crap if they can't pull, buff, and dps in a party, I often wonder why there are very few people who wonder where all the ranged attack weapons on the above jobs have disappeared to."

well, the main thing is (in MOST cases), you're losing less dmg by having a COR pull then say a RNG or a SAM. In most cases, a COR should be 4th on the dmg list in a pt (though somehow I usually end up 2nd or 3rd). The COR can still keep all his rolls up without too much trouble and can also SLEEP the pull, which is something many of those other jobs simply cannot do. A RNG could using sleep bolts, sure. THF maybe but their crappy marksmanship skill makes that a bit of a risky proposition.

If you're talking a non-merit type situation though, I'd go the other way and say the THF or RNG or whoever should be pulling. If you're not chaining infinitely, you're not losing any dmg on the pull at all. Maybe the puller leaves a bit early to get the next mob but it's not like he's prevented from DDing at all like a merit COR would be.

All this talk of pulling reminds me of the good old days when a random DD would pull lol. A lot of them were scared sh*tless it seemed, that or just faked it to get out of pulling. Back when worrying about links was actually an issue lol. I remember in places like the nest (crawlers) or bibiki (goblins), one bad [pull could result in a full wipe lol. God this game is so much easier now :).
#27 Jun 22 2009 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Anyone that needs a BRD to function (since I know that's what you're insinuating) is a subpar player.


No one ever said a COR needs a BRD to function. But its a given that a COR + BRD party will out-xp a single BRD or single COR party. A BRD is also a superior puller to a COR because of Horde lullaby and Carnage Elegy. Esp in mamool camps.

Additionally, COR doesn't have any haste roll. So an additional BRD support makes the party superior. Chaos/COR/March/Minuet can make mincemeat out of most areas.
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#28 Jun 22 2009 at 11:34 PM Rating: Default
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Anyone that needs a BRD to function is a subpar player.

This always makes me lol.

There's a difference between "need" and "want".

It wouldn't be overly difficult to play one-handed, but why bother? Just to prove to some random dime-a-dozen allanoob that you can? There's no incentive.

Just because you refuse setups that you judge to be sh*t doesn't mean you couldn't survive and scrape by with 18k/hr or whatever in them. It just means that you don't want to bother working like a whore for table scraps.
#29 Jun 22 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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And yet again since it seems to be difficult to grasp:

Infinite chains do not mean anything in 2009. This game has been so imbalanced over the years that high chains mean nothing. Merit mobs are a joke, players are ridiculously overpowered with minimal meris and AH gear, and FFXI is rotting in easymode.

15k/hr and 30k/hr are both infinite chains. So what? Chain number means nothing. If you can get to 30, you can get to 300. You have so long to chain. Anything past 30 or so is just a measure of bladder strength, nothing more. No one is impressed by chain #45456456457457457. You can pull chain 100 on ToAU merit mobs with ANY setup as long as the players aren't functionally retarded. PLD BLM WHM COR DOMARU DOMARU can get chain 100.
#30 Jun 23 2009 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Fully agree with Kerb; anytime "infinite chains" are mentioned as a testimony to good merit results, it's an eye-roller.
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#31 Jun 23 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Default
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Infinite chains do not mean anything in 2009.


Well kerb, that's because you haven't done any single support PUG's in a while.

Since I'm not as picky as you, I'll join a pickup group if I've only got a few hours to xp. Most often they don't get a BRD and they want me to pull. So I'll pull and roll and you'd be surprised how often these PUG parties can't get infinite chains. They think they just have to wear their uber gear and go crazy on the mob. They don't pay attention to damage mitigation. /SAM is for Hasso and meditate only. /NIN is for shadows "when I remember". No one eats decent food even on mamools (last PUG i had at mamools, one WAR ate squid sushi +1 and that's it). I end up slowing pulls because the RDM starts running out of MP. Boom we're stuck at chain 7 or 8.

I have a simple rule. Even a crap party is worth sticking it out for the life of an Empress Band. After that, it's "Find an excuse to leave time".

Of course I've also been in your boat with the good players with good gear that know a COR + BRD party is the only way to merit. Gettting your 10 merits filled in a couple hours is pretty nice and I keep wondering, "why can't all parties be like this?"

So for a large percentage of the population, infinite chains do mean something. It's just that the top 10% of the population that attends Alla forums never sees the netherworld of crap SAM's that populate PUG meripos. And if you can easily avoid them... more power to you.
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#32Fynlar, Posted: Jun 23 2009 at 10:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've yet to have even parties with a BRD exceed 18k/hr. So as far as I'm concerned, BRD is not the magical factor that will determine whether or not you can break that amount; there's more to it than just that.
#33 Jun 23 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Honestly, by merit level, a good COR who isn't shooting for TP is not spending all that much. Do you guys think that none of the other DDs in the party spend money on any consumables, or what?

You're still blowing 50-100k-ish every party, as long as it's not a short party. Yes, that's in addition to food like normal DD's, and if pulling Shehei will be used. 200g per WS and 50g every 45 seconds in cards adds up. If SE decided to charge this for a melee to function tomorrow, there'd be riots. 250 gil every 45 seconds is what then, exactly? If not "all that much"?
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#34 Jun 23 2009 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
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Honestly, by merit level, a good COR who isn't shooting for TP is not spending all that much. Do you guys think that none of the other DDs in the party spend money on any consumables, or what?


Really? In a meripo where all i'm doing is pulling, I'll usually go through a stack of light cards (3500-4800/stack), 2-3 squid sushi's (12k/stack), about a third stack of shihei (2k/stack) and a stack of bullets (4-8k/stack) and 10-20 steel bullets for the odd slug shot (20k /stack). So I can easily come out 15k down in a 3 hour meripo.

A SAM uses one marinara pizza which are 6k I believe. Some melee will come /NIN and burn through a half stack of shihei to add 1k gil. A RDM uses a marron glace for 4k. Other than RNG, I'm not seeing a lot of consumable use amongst most party members. In a colibri camp its even worse where the melee typically eat nothing or maybe some meat mithkabobs (4k a stack). They might get unlucky and burn through a couple stacks of those.

Most COR's will spend twice as much per meripo as any other DD save RNG. So I think that gives COR's a bit of a right to determine who we party with. I'm not one of those COR"s as I'll pretty much go out with anyone. But I'll geenrally leave a crap party if I'm spending too much for too little reward.
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#35 Jun 23 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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"princess COR" and "princess BRD" make you sound like you're dissing a woman because she wouldn't fuck you. i know i'm talking to a wall, but i wish people could get it through their heads that people... actually... are... entitled... to... choose... who... they... party... with... regardless of how it makes you feel. read it slow, take it all in.

as for how expensive COR is, yeah there's no way a melee is spending that much these days. pizza+1 is dirt cheap and the best food around for almost all jobs (except for epeen swingers that could go red curry or something, and they don't give a sh*t about that kind of gil or they wouldn't be benefiting more from red curry than pizza in the first place). mithkabob/crab sushi spam is cheap too.

COR wouldn't put a dent in a lot of players gil--at least general maintenance-wise--but if you look at their general expenses as a % of general DD/support/mage expenses, it's going to be at least double.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 3:26pm by milich
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#36 Jun 23 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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If you need a BRD to perform well, you suck.


I'd argue that COR is one of the few jobs that actually does need a BRD to perform well. We are a support/DD hybrid job. To do that you have to have some other job pulling. BRD is the only job in meripo that is superior to COR as puller.

A COR without a BRD is a meripo puller/buffer. Reasonable work if you can get it but it hardly puts all those hard-earned merits and gear to good use. I could pull a meripo on COR naked with a light staff, peacemaker and light cards. I wouldn't consider that peak performance.

A COR with a BRD is a buffer, damage dealer or even support healer (/DNC). We can definitely put out good damage with QD every 50 sec, TP gain with Joyeuse and a pretty strong WS in SLugshot. That's what I call truly performing the job as intended (wtf would SE load us with gear heavy on RACC, RATT, STR and AGI if we weren't meant to DD).

Just my point of view.
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#37 Jun 23 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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"princess COR" and "princess BRD" make you sound like you're dissing a woman because she wouldn't @#%^ you. i know i'm talking to a wall, but i wish people could get it through their heads that people... actually... are... entitled... to... choose... who... they... party... with... regardless of how it makes you feel. read it slow, take it all in.


Yes, and being choosy/demanding to the realm of unreasonableness is what defines you as a princess to the populace. Get THAT through your head.
#38 Jun 23 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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"princess COR" and "princess BRD" make you sound like you're dissing a woman because she wouldn't @#%^ you. i know i'm talking to a wall, but i wish people could get it through their heads that people... actually... are... entitled... to... choose... who... they... party... with... regardless of how it makes you feel. read it slow, take it all in.


Yes, and being choosy/demanding to the realm of unreasonableness is what defines you as a princess to the populace. Get THAT through your head.


let's make up a word for "people who have MNK DRG SAM BRD at 75". because THERE ARE such people! it's important that we develop a terminology for it. i mean, sure, the offensive and stupid term 'princess BRD' came about through enough people feeling saaaaad that they met a BRD one time who force DC'd from their party and that seems silly, but it's totally valid. i mean, that BRD you met was UNREASONABLE! that BRD exists, so we needed a term to cover other plainly unreasonable people. we also need terms for people with MNK DRG SAM BRD at 75. and of course people with WAR RDM WHM DRG RNG at 75. that has to be another term.
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#40 Jun 23 2009 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I wont say what the proper way to play is. All I know is that when I have pulled, I'd buff like normal, shoot a mob, run to camp, sleep, and repeat until I get TP for a WS.
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#41 Jun 23 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Yes, and being choosy/demanding to the realm of unreasonableness is what defines you as a princess to the populace. Get THAT through your head.

Subjective term is subjective.

The problem with terms like "princess JOB" comes when people abuse it.

"This princess COR left because we're making 15k/hr."
"This princess COR left because we don't have a BRD."
"This princess COR left because we're making 5k/hr..."
"This princess COR left because we're 6/6 and have no healer, not even a /DNC....."
"This princess COR left because we wiped to 4 G.Colibri in a row......."

It gets watered down and meaningless. If anything, people hear someone complain about a princess, and the logical assumption is "The so-called princess left because your party sucks..." But "sucks" is subjective too.

In the end, everyone wants fast, easy, fun exp. People will have differing opinions about what's fast enough to be worth their time. Healers and pullers especially will have a specific tolerance for how stressful of a party they'll tolerate. And everyone has their own definition of fun. You can bash on people for being rude or condescending or force d/cing. But making judging remarks on someone, just because your standards are lower than theirs, is silly and futile. Just ignore them and find someone else to play with.
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#42 Jun 23 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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How about those darn "Princess Warriors", who dont voke off the "Princess Cor", and the "Princess RDM" who refuses to help sleep when light shot is down?
And the "Princess MNKs", who just engage and WS and soak up the xp; they just tick me off.
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#43 Jun 23 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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let's make up a word for "people who have MNK DRG SAM BRD at 75". because THERE ARE such people! it's important that we develop a terminology for it.


OK, sure, go for it. But you do realize that now you sound like you're arguing just for the sake of looking silly, right?


Quote:
Subjective term is subjective.


It's really not hard to know what is reasonable and what is not. Use your head.

Not knowing these kinds of things can get you in trouble with the law in real life. If you truly don't know, you'd best start learning.


Quote:
The problem with terms like "princess JOB" comes when people abuse it.

"This princess COR left because we're making 15k/hr."
"This princess COR left because we don't have a BRD."
"This princess COR left because we're making 5k/hr..."
"This princess COR left because we're 6/6 and have no healer, not even a /DNC....."
"This princess COR left because we wiped to 4 G.Colibri in a row......."


People do abuse the term, yes, but that doesn't mean princess players don't exist. It's understandable for people to excuse themselves from parties like the bolded ones above, for instance.

But just because some high school kids abuse the term "gay" and apply it to things that it should not be applied to does not mean that there's no such thing as homosexuals.


Quote:
People will have differing opinions about what's fast enough to be worth their time.


Right, and the extreme opinions will still get you labeled as a princess, nonetheless. As stated, it's really not hard to know what is reasonable. Insisting that a certain job is in your party, or that a certain job is never in your party, is just one of the many ways for me to brand you as one.

Don't like it? Try being less of a nazi.


Quote:
But making judging remarks on someone, just because your standards are lower than theirs, is silly and futile.


If you're being a cockbite, I will certainly call you out as such. I already know it isn't going to change your behavior, but that doesn't stop you from being what you are.


Quote:
How about those darn "Princess Warriors", who dont voke off the "Princess Cor", and the "Princess RDM" who refuses to help sleep when light shot is down?
And the "Princess MNKs", who just engage and WS and soak up the xp; they just tick me off.


Anyone can be a princess player. It just applies more to jobs like BRD and COR because "everyone wants them" and therefore more of them feel they are more entitled to be choosy than anyone else.
#44 Jun 23 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
"princess COR" and "princess BRD" make you sound like you're dissing a woman because she wouldn't fuck you. i know i'm talking to a wall, but i wish people could get it through their heads that people... actually... are... entitled... to... choose... who... they... party... with... regardless of how it makes you feel. read it slow, take it all in.

I'm not sure why you continue to have such an obsession with stopping use of the word "princess" (as opposed to, say, "noob" or "gimp"), but it goes beyond simple I-DCed-because-we-weren't-making-enough-exp.

It's the RDM who refuses to cast Dia because it's too bothersome.
It's the BRD who refuses to pull because it's too hectic.
It's the COR who use brass bullets because steel bullets are too expensive.

It's the general mindset of putting yourself above the rest of the party solely because the job you are playing is high demand.

Ever wonder why you don't hear about princess SCH, or princess THF, or princess BLU? Because those jobs don't get to be a princess. They get f*cking booted.

If you are one of the chosen few, you can be as much as an obstinate jerk as you want, and your parties either have to suck it up or be willing to sit in Whitegate hoping that another (high-demand) replacement pops up.

Do not attempt to simply frame this as people having minimum expectations; it goes far beyond that. All of us have seen the RDM that insists that everyone sub NIN so that he doesn't have to cure as much, even when that will reduce the party's performance.

It's not an issue of having standards; it's an issue of "I want what I want, and if you don't give it to me, I'm taking my ball and going home." THIS is what defines a princess.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 7:38pm by redvenomweb
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#45 Jun 23 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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In my opinion, COR does have the right to not want to pull, and have a BRD do it, but also, if you're gonna pass on pulling duties, you better be ready to do something else to help the party. Myself personally, won't join a merit party if there is no BRD pulling, but I also spent a lot of gil getting my gear to the point where I can essentially be the 4th DD. Sure I'm not putting up SAM or DRG like numbers, but I hold my own pretty well, and have no problems spamming Slug Shot with Steel Bullets and keeping up 2-3 rolls always (COR and Chaos always, and using Evoker's if the mage is getting a bit low).

I have left parties with the other people pretty impressed with my output, and always have requests to go party with them again. I put in my seacom that I do not wish to pull, and always ask before accepting an invite, as to not cause drama once we reach camp. I feel that is my right as someone who sunk a lot of money into not being the prototypical sit back, buff, and in some cases, forced to /WHM and backup heal COR. Too often people consider COR to just be a support job, when it has been stated many times it's a Support/DD hybrid job, and I plan on playing both parts of that equation so that I can enjoy my time meriting, and that is what it's about anyway, right? If we aren't having fun, what are we doing?
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#46 Jun 23 2009 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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i'm drunk but i've been playing since the NA release and i say 'princess' isn't a valid term. is that enough for you @#%^ing sh*ts?

p.s. i haven't been playijng since the NA release but i dfid start playing in 2004 so my opiunion is matter
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#47 Jun 24 2009 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
i'm drunk but i've been playing since the NA release and i say 'princess' isn't a valid term. is that enough for you @#%^ing sh*ts?

p.s. i haven't been playijng since the NA release but i dfid start playing in 2004 so my opiunion is matter


i have never heard of this player before or his opinions but i believe he is probably right
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#48 Jun 24 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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p.s. this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoGc_KIiSRs
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#49 Jun 24 2009 at 2:13 AM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:


WHAT!? HOLD ON THAT VIDEO CUTS OFF LIKE HALFWAY THROUGH THE SONG!

F

U

C

K


Y

O

U



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBCAPakjr8k

ALSO SOME RANDOM GACHIMUCHI VIDEOS THAT I'LL NEGLECT TO LINK BECAUSE I KNOW YOU WON'T APPRECIATE IT

CAPS

CAPS

CAPS

CAPS

CAPS

SPAC

PAC

P

PEE
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#50 Jun 24 2009 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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believe it
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#51 Jun 24 2009 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder who won the pool for which job forum would be the first to realize awesomeness of drunk pahn outside mnk forums.
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