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Cor/Nin co-pulling in 25k/hr+ PartiesFollow

#1 May 10 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Regarding maximizing exp/hr, I think the following could be used as a good order of priority:
1.Survivability
2.DPS
3.Pull Rate
That is, make sure your party has what it takes to survive fights and long/infinite chains. Then make sure your party can kill as fast as possible. Assuming your party can kill fast, then make sure the pulls keep coming in without delay.
(Also, I see there's already a "how cor should be played" thread up from JP-button, but I didn't come here to participate in that thread)

Something that's always irritated me is at how self-righteous many Cors can be. They're just about quicker than any other job class to point the finger and say "you're doing it wrong." I think what's always irked me about this is that I could very very rarely find a Cor (even if they seem to come off as one of 'the best of the best') that could do what I asked them to as party leader, in the best interest of the party, as well as in the interests of that Cor's exp/hr. That is, pulling. I'm not talking about poor or mediocre parties having the cor pull. I'm sure there are times where in some party formations, the cor is the best person for the job (as could be said of my main job class, Thief) of pulling. But there's usually someone else there (preferably a bard) who can do that job for them.

I'm not talking about those parties though, I'm talking about peaked parties. With how long this game has been out, it is now not uncommon to build a party that can quote-unquote "cap" exp/hr at common merit camps. I'd even go so far to say that it doesn't even take a "great" party to be able to achieve this; "mediocre" parties can too. With a single, skilled bard puller, pulling all the available traditional mobs within the radius of their camp, the cap seems to be somewhere around 20-22k/hr+ without corsair's roll. But since merit parties are supposed to be about exp/hr I almost never merit without Brd+Cor anymore; I like my exp roll.


The problem is that this "cap" that I'm talking about is kind of an illusion. And the reason that it is so is because the mob supply at most merit camps (MMJ south and north, Birds mid and maybe lower) can be larger than most parties realize. Perhaps talking theoretically isn't as good as giving a solid example, so I'll get to the point and do that instead.

Let's take a great party setup. Outside heals if they're available, but that's unconventional and unnecessary (unless there is no "haster" within the party). Let's say mid bird camp. Let's say the healer is either a Dnc 5/5HasteSamba or Sch (accession+erase wivres) w/ outside heals, or a contemporary Rdm or even a Whm. Obviously we'll need a Brd/Nin. And of course 3 of the best "relic level" DD's you can get. I'm talking War/Sam, Mnk/War, assorted relics, Sam's with good pole builds, or w/e. The best of the best isn't even close to necessary to get well over 25k/hr, but let's say we've got that. Now we obviously need a cor for our exp roll (the main reason I put Cors in my pt).

So here's the meat of the issue. How should the Cor play? Straight DD? Support role? DD extra support? Well obviously given the topic of the thread, there's my preference: puller. One might say "ah, but there's already a bard." Decent point, but there's a very good reason why I would like a Cor to pull as well. That reason: the bard can't keep up with the pulls. This is more fact than opinion, and I know it first hand since I am a (pretty decent) bard. Even if your bard knows the camp perfectly, plays well, and has a chakram to pull with (which every bard bring for bird merits just in case it is required), it's not easy for them to keep up with regular 5-15 second kills and with no mobs up within their visual range.

There are two ways to amend this problem: 1.Increase the mob supply, and 2.Increase the pull rate. Mid birds is now my favorite camp because it seems the easiest for increasing mob supply. First, there are 3 wivres. Secondly, there's a whole floor of birds (and more wivres) next to you, and very many of them within 25' firing range. If that weren't enough, there's a floor of pullable mamools above you, and sometimes you can pull up to 5+ at a time (not necessarily a bad thing).

The problem is that it's very hard for a single bard to keep up w/ all these pulls and leave no downtime between fights. Ideally, if possible, a party should aim for 0 downtime between fights. If a mob dies, another one should be within melee range (not usually possible, but let's aim for that). For a bard trying to keep up 2-4 songs and travel up to 50' each way for another mob, 5-15 second fights may be too fast for this goal. This is where the cor comes in. I understand that you can't roll whenever you want to, but the rolls last a long time. If anything, let's keep it simple and say you just have to sing an exp roll and a dd roll. That leaves plenty of time to pull. With the kill rate given, /rng isn't going to help a whole lot. Our kill rate already exceeds our pull rate. Mp is fine, so support role isn't needed. The problem is the pull rate.

Darts

Corsairs can wear these. I frequently hear about corsairs saying they can't help pull because their guns are too slow. That's usually just their convenient excuse to say "I'd rather DD." But if gun speed is really a problem, darts are readily available and cheap. If a mob needs to be slept, dispelled, or light-shotted to enhance dia (wivres/lurkers), nothing is stopping the cor from making a macro to swap in the gun and ammo before the ability. Then they can swap back to darts and continue pulling.

I've had a few (rare) wonderful cors who have helped pull for my parties before (though never with darts). Cors, I guarantee you that if you get one of these calibur parties, co-pulling in the aforementioned way for the aforementioned reasons will increase your exp/hr (up to 35k/hr+, no fibs). And it should hopefully be fun too.


I'm interested to see what the cor community's thoughts are on this potentially perceivably outlandish proposal, especially since the caliber party I outlined above isn't even necessary to "cap" exp at most camps, and the easiest way to increase exp/hr from that "cap" will always be to add another puller (given the need for exp roll in an optimal party, this means it has to be the corsair). Also I am talking from experience as well; I have co-pulled on my sub-70 cor at mid birds before.

Edited, May 10th 2009 9:39pm by Shamaya
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#2 May 10 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
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There are several other cheap ways to pull other than darts.

Get one of the 1 damage chakrams for rank 3 IS points.
Use ninjitus like Hyoton.
Get a Peacemaker and tin bullets.

I personally like the latter since you can macro in steel bullets and not lose TP for some WS's.
But the first two are viable as well although ninjitsu has a fairly short range.

But a BRD is still a better puller. And a meripo without a BRD is not optomized.
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#3Shamaya, Posted: May 10 2009 at 1:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Aye, this is Cor/Nin co-pulling w/ a Bard main pulling only.
#4 May 10 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Why do you need 2 pullers? I can pull infinite number of chains by myself >.> Not to mention any decent Bard can do the same.....

Quote:
Our kill rate already exceeds our pull rate.

If your killing at top speed you'll run outta mobs before repops thus ending the chain anyway. So why bother?
#5 May 10 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Co puller is only necessary when there is competition. you can run to different areas and try to outclaim. If you both get something at the same time, well that's what lullaby/light shot are for.

But in an empty camp, only one puller is necessary. When I pull on COR, I just do that and buff. Don't even bother engaging. Just run out and get the next mob and keep it slept or tank it with shadows. Never ask for a co-puller.
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#6 May 10 2009 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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TBH, as a COR main puller (something I've done quite often), I've never had a pt that got outkill my pulls. Not saying such a pt doesn't exist, just that when I have been in those type of pts, it's been /war and a hybrid buffer/4th DD not as the puller. I know the middle bird camp extremely well and pull in a way that I know where the next available birds should be. I also pull birds from lower camp if needed. Gun speed is not an issue with a peacemaker at all and if you're just pulling, there's no reason not to use one (plus more AGI for your light shots). Typically I'll have to light shot one mob then use shadows to hold the next, rinse n repeat.

I certainly think 2 pullers at middle bird camp could be extremely effective if they communicate well. I'd have them both wipe out th middle floor then have the bard go north for mammools (links more likely) and the COR go south for birds.

You don't *need* 4 DDs to pull great xp and kill fast enough. Two BRD pts have long proven that. **** you dont even need THREE DDs to keep a chain alive. I speak from personal experience here. I remember a pt I had last year on my SAM in middle camp. We had someone DC, another person leave and were on about chain 207. Only four of us there while we waited on reps. RDM, BRD, WAR and my SAM. The War and I managed to kill fast enough on our own that when the reps came, we'd gotten over chain 230.

If I was asked to do this, I'd be ok with it (provided the DDs could keep up and the healer too). Again, the beauty of COR is its versatility. We can be a legit puller, a legit contributor as a DD or a valuable and efficent back-up healer/status curer. In the other thread I saw people saying "why not PLD or DRK.. they have aspir or chivalry or w/e"... ummm we have evokers and it's going to be on us already anyway. That's far better than aspir lol. And like someone else mentioned, COR/SCH gets aspir and sublimation too. I soloed my SCH from 10 to 21 last week. Just like to have options. /DNC is less than optimal in salvage on bosses. Yes you could put on peacemaker and fire away for tp, but people stick 2 MNKs on those bosses for a reason. /whm is pretty good in those situations but I think /sch can be better.

/end derail :P.

#7 May 10 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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TDGSW wrote:
TBH, as a COR main puller (something I've done quite often), I've never had a pt that got outkill my pulls.

Same. But then I usually do pickups/don't have a bard/play with average DDs.

I think your sales pitch could use some work. Just thinking about 15 second kills, 2 pullers, outside heals, swapping my gun in and out, and pulling from other camps, my brain started to hurt. I'm not saying maxed out meriting is a bad thing, it's just not the reason I picked up cor. Honestly, most in this forum have shelled out huge chunks of gil leveling DD cors, and we did it because it's fun. I think most of us want to keep it that way.

Still, I'd give it a go. It's probably not as harrowing as I'm making it out to be in my head.
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#8 May 10 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I think being able to prove people wrong and change the way they think about CORs is part of what attracts us all to the job. I once defeated a SAM friend of mine in a parse (admittedly it wasn't a legit competition and he was sitting on tp to help a MNK friend break a weapon). Even so, another friend of ours razzed him a bit for losing to a COR. All of us are in the same nyzul group and I've made a point to see who could produce the top WS each day. I'm currently winning that lil competition too. I get a kick out of seeing a WAR or SAM brag about his WS dmg in pt... "Oh I did 1500, aren't I uber?". Then I bust 1800 or 2k+ and just smile at them. The ceiling on COR WS dmg is extremely high. High enough that it can often make up for our inability to keep up on melee dmg.

A few months ago, my COR was ok. I'd average a shade over 800 slugs in merits, break 1k a fair bit and was doing ok. Now, I average 1200+ and have broken 2K once in a while (angon ftw mostly but I broke 2400 without it once). Heh, this poor DRG had angon macroed in a pt line chat that told us when he was using it. We'd all spam our WS and kill the mob before he could hit his WS macro. he got so mad lol. I told him it served him right for pt-chatting it and he quickly removed it lol.

I take a lot of pride in my ability to do good DMG and outspike most everyone. Then again, I also take pride in being able to carry a 300+ MP pool full time, still contribute dmg and then max out my MP pool at close to 500 by hitting one macro if the situation calls for it. Still working on my slug/detonator sets too. Would love to add Enki or skadi hands to it. Working on skadi legs for TP set, enki feet for haste set and enki body would be nice to TP in too.

It's like a few ppl have said before. It's tough to quantify a COR's true dmg if you subscribe to the "BRD is a top DD if you count how much it boosts the jobs around it" thinking. Not only are we dramatically raising the dmg of everyone around us, but in many cases I'm doing as much as they are lol.

And if you go further outside the box and thinking of BLM, SMN or BST burn pts or events... honestly we kill BRDs in that department. In Einherjar every week I'm leading a SMN x5 and me pt. If we astral flow without a COR, 2 flows usually isn't enough to wipe the wave out. If I hit a nice DRG roll, it's over in 2 flows every time. Oh yeah, and I can also run off to the side, buff myself and contribute with some solid ranged damage on the other mobs without taking any dmg myself. What's not to love about that?

Trioed Verdelet with 2 BST recently. One ran out of range of BST roll and the other guy's sheep easily took hate with my rolls on it.

But i'll say it again, COR's versatility is one of it's strongest points. We can sub absolutely anything and our buffs are as strong as ever. W can sub anything and still melee/ranged for dmg, even as /whm or /sch while also providing still more support. Bottom line is that some situations call for something besides all-out dmg. As a COR, you have the ability to adjust to whatever is needed while still performing your primary functions as well as just about any job in game. Might as well learn how to do it.

Edited, May 11th 2009 12:38am by TDGSW

Edited, May 11th 2009 12:41am by TDGSW
#9 May 10 2009 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Regarding maximizing exp/hr, I think the following could be used as a good order of priority:
1.Survivability
2.DPS
3.Pull Rate

Are you Japanese? Or do your healers just suck so hard that survivability is ever a concern at all? Damage EQUALS survivability.
Quote:
With a single, skilled bard puller, pulling all the available traditional mobs within the radius of their camp, the cap seems to be somewhere around 20-22k/hr+ without corsair's roll.

I fucking rofl'd so hard at this.

Did you get "cap" confused with "minimum"? Do your bards suck that bad that they need help? Any decent BRD can solo pull 30k/hr if their DDs keep up.

5-15 second kills? Hyperbole much? A 5 second kill is a relic RNG one-shotting a mob with barrage, or everyone using a WS at once. 22k per hour is like a 30 second average kill. You're not killing mobs in 15 seconds if you care about lolutsusemi.

Why do you need /NIN to pull, anyway?

You type like a fucking saleman, btw. It's irritating. I don't want to buy any Orange Glo.
Quote:
I'm interested to see what the cor community's thoughts are on this potentially perceivably outlandish proposal,

lol? You really think you're special and original, don't you?
#10 May 10 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
it's not easy for them to keep up with regular 5-15 second kills and with no mobs up within their visual range.


Parties do not kill mobs in 5 seconds. That would be 195k/hr @270 exp per mob

Parties do not kill mobs in 15 seconds. That would be 65k/hr @270 exp per mob.


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#11 May 11 2009 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty happy with the responses so far though, because the only responses I get in-game are "Corsair's DON'T pull," quoted by self-proclaimed top-Cors.


Keberoz' post though is exactly the main type of response I was expecting. But he does not state where he stands on the pulling issue. Your rage feeds me, sir. Under the assumption that you disagree with me completely, it drives me to tell you how to play your job.

TDG, I wouldn't say you derailed at all. Your insightful input was exactly the kind that I was hoping to see--about maximizing each situational role for your job when it is called for.


One of which is puller/co-puller. Regarding what Keberoz mentioned: no /nin is not required. But it is mentioned because it is the best sub available for the task. I knew the three-part-philosophy which includes "survivability" was not all-encompassing. But you should be able to tell that I'm already well aware of zerging PT's, as the entire OP pretty much sounds out that theme--and there is no specific mention of /nin DD's, as you seem to purport.

What confuses me is that you claim 30k/hr with no exp roll as "easy" and yet seem surprised at 5-15 second kills. Perhaps your experiences are contradictory? The reason I claim 20-22k/hr+ as a soft "cap" (not cap) w/ no exp roll is because it is. Go to a camp and record your exp/hr, and over time it will come out to 20-22k/hr (no xp roll) or slightly more if you're clearing the "traditional" mobs at the camp (birds = a couple pulls from the other level each cycle, but no wivres; north & south camp = 2-3 skoffins into the pit; mamook front = all mobs in the circuit; nyzul MMJ = all mobs on the floor).

And as you say, 22k/hr is achievable with 30 second kills. Hence the exhaustion of mob supply when kills are 5-15 seconds. 30 second kills are enough to pretty much clear camps alone. 5-15 is not unheard of at all. A single SA/TA+Mercy takes a second or few to execute, and very often takes off between 1/3 and 1/2 of a G.Colibri's health. Haste-capped pole sams and War/Sams put out very similar DPS to a mandau thief with the right support, and are in much more common supply. 5 seconds is when multiple people WS at once (happens all the time). 15 is when they don't. 20 is fine too, 5-15 is just a fair generalization.



And barber, the reason you don't see 60k/hr+ is because of mob supply =P. Don't forget pull downtime either. When I say 5-15 sec, I mean when the mob is at camp already.

And that is what the thread is about: how to increase both supply and rate of pulls.
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#12 May 11 2009 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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well with the party setup that u mentioned there...


i was in a relic burn

brd - horn
thf - dagger
sam - great katana
drk - scythe

rdm and me(cor) and i was in the bird middle camp, but i was well over 25k/hr didnt have a parse up or anything but exp was just coming in easily and i was on cor/nin straight DD joy/mkris slug shot spamming, and heres the thing the BRD DID NOT require any co-pulling help at all and things were all working fine

as for what kerb says its more like the faster u actually kill the darn thing ripping it apart is better surviving since it wouldnt even live over 10sec, and if your in a pt like that your only problem is that you would be running out of mobs to kill

my 2cents~
#13 May 11 2009 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent
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In an overly optimum setup, say 3 relic dd, brd, rdm cor. And at the middle brid camp or middle of MJS 2 pullers can be required to keep up. In these rare circumstances (not that hard to come by really depending on who you know) 2 pullers can produce more exp per hour than just 1.

Who cares if infinite chains can be pulled by 1 puller, when, if the party can kill fast enough, they can kill all the mobs pulled by 2 people in the same time. Chain number DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL.

1 thing matters, EXP per HOUR. If you get chain 100 in 40 mins, and My party gets it in 20, (both just made up numbers for the sake of argument) my party is pwning the crap out of yours.
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#14 May 11 2009 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you get chain 100 in 40 mins, and My party gets it in 20

Middle bird camp doesn't have enough mobs to need 2 pullers even if you kill wivres. Bottom camp however might. I've never had a party on the bottom floor that got thru all the wivres and birds b4 new repops. Granted I'm usually in PUGS or LS parties so relics aren't the norm for me lol. I've had a few fun relic holder parties but xp doesn't seem to improve much beyond any decently geared DD party imho.
#15 May 11 2009 at 4:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Thx Trey. Aye, even if you break chain you'll still get better exp by just pulling more mobs faster and risking it. Pushing it to the limit is the holy grail of merits.

Quote:
heres the thing the BRD DID NOT require any co-pulling help at all and things were all working fine
I'm not ragging on bards, and I know parties can make 25k+ w/ one bard puller. I've tapped 35 a few times with just myself as bard. But what I'm saying is that while not required, a cor co-puller will increase exp/hr as an option.

I think mid birds has more mobs Teg just because you can pull Mamools as well and also when you're at bottom you frequently get the "you can't target that" message when pulling mid >,<. It's hard to kill the entire mid floor, wivres, and some bottom birds b4 repops, but it has been done.
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#16 May 11 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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This thread is far too complicated. If I am pulling then something is inhibiting the party. I usually party with a certain group of brds and we pull 25k/hr if the DDs suck, our norm is 29k-30k/hr. If you brd is a good puller then he will be riding pops and gives you zero reason to be pulling, you should be contributing to dmg and on that front you should be parsing well. If i trust the healer then I go /war. If its a pickup healer I will consider /dnc.

I am in no way saying COR can't pull, I have done it tons IF there is no brd. I never /nin to DD.
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#17 May 11 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you better let the brd pull solo in normal situation, since it would be easier for the brd to manage the pop time.
#18 May 11 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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Shamaya wrote:


I completely was totally going along with your entire mindset and such until I saw Darts, and immediately thought 'does this guy know april fools was last month?'.

In one second flat I lost all respect for this post if you SERIOUSLY just mentioned darts. This is one of those moments where the white guy does the worst possible 'Oh no u di'nt' snap snap snap things imaginable.





In a situation where you are needing extra pulls, a cor can pull just fine without a fast paced gun. They can independantly sleep their own pulls. When I did my first BRDx2 party(with a newly obtained relic horn on one of them) we had the relic horn buffing and healing in MP gear, and the 2nd brd pulling and buffing. Occasionally, the pulling brd would communicate he needed help getting the next bird. We were at middle bird camp. He would communicate in advance so the relic brd had atleast 5-10 sec warning to get one, but also, the relic brd was aware and ready to jump as soon as he saw the /p line from the pulling brd that he might be needed to help for a moment. This is the attitude a cor should have at all times.

They should be ready to run and grab something with a few seconds notice. I know most like to advocate meleeing for TP when taking the cor DD route, but that tends to limit their ability to pull reliably as a backup in the situation the OP is talking about, which is a situation where split seconds are what makes the diff between reducing downtime and eliminating downtime. This is where TPing with steel bullets takes the lead on meleeing for TP. In these parties where you are asked to be 'on call' to assist in pulling.

Any cor that tells you their gun shoots too slow to pull need to go level RNG and pull for 50 levels. I pulled every level on RNG because I made every party and made every party on COR 35-65, and pulled in most of those too. The only thing that is needed is a sense of average kill time, and a sense of how long it takes you to grab the next enemy and get it to camp in the perfect moment. Delay means nothing if you can compensate for it by leaving camp 2 or 3 seconds earlier.

This may be a case of 'in my day we walked in 15feet of snow 15 miles uphill' things- but there's absolutely no reason why anyone should ever refuse to do something for the sake of increasing exp/hr. If they do, there's absolutely no reason you ever need to invite them. The sad truth is that they will find a group with players who don't care, and they'll be the 4th or 5th party that arrive at birds and kill 5 birds every 10 minutes and then someone will d/c about 45 minutes in, effectively ruining your party's exp for all 45 minutes.

In the end, just invite who will play the way you want to play, if you are the leader. That's the reason you are the leader. Way too many leaders throw parties together and then put **** up to a democratic vote. Parties don't get anywhere with that ****. Those 5 members are the ones who sat around for 45 minutes or more because they didn't want to put a party together(re:show leadership potential or want to bear any leadership responsibilities) so I don't see how people expect to throw a party together and then things just magically happen where you gain 25-35k/hr exp(or whatever the current fad exp/hr ratio to boast about is)
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#19 May 12 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
so I don't see how people expect to throw a party together and then things just magically happen where you gain 25-35k/hr exp(or whatever the current fad exp/hr ratio to boast about is)


Doesn't happen magically, you make sure your brd friends are good and avoid as many pickup people as possible. Just put a pt together last night. Had to get a pickup WAR... I out parsed him. I had a nice string of lucky COR rolls and did just short of 32k/hr. If you have tp ull with a brd in the pt you are hurting the party more by pulling than just DDing.
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#20 May 13 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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If i pt with a BRD i let them pull because they are better at it. If i can see the BRD is doing something else (ballad perhaps) and i feel my damage will not contribute anything on that monster (killing it fast enough already to reach chain) then i will search out for a new monster that may be tucked away.

Most COR will have the sense not to sit their with their finger up their **** and risk loosing chain. However, as i have never been in a 3 relic melee pt then i have never seen anything take 10 seconds to die. So in most cases my back up pulling is only part-time.

Sadly, a good 50% of the merit pt i get loose chain when i stop DD'ing to pull. Sounds big headed but its not...they just really are that bad at their job.
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#21 May 13 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry FenrirXIII, I didn't meant to come off like an *** saying corsairs should just always go and pull with darts, though it might have sounded like it. The reason I pulled darts outta my *** is because all of the Cors I talk to on Asura (save one that I can think of) have told me that Cor pulling is always a bad idea, and it is so because their guns are always too slow (even peacemaker). I know they're just BS'ing me because they're lazy, but my counter-point was always darts (the only weapon I could think of that wasn't a gun that they could pull with, and probably the fastest and cheapest). In response to that they would bring up DPS loss, at which point I countered that in the situations I was talking about, their DPS didn't matter, at which point they'd either say it did or we'd just drop it.

This all goes back to two major points surrounding the theme of cor-pulling I'm talking about, 1. being that **** is situational, and 2. being that there comes a point where if the 3 DD's reach a certain level of DPS, the Cor's DPS no longer matters (has no positive effect on exp/hr due to lack of mob supply).

I don't want to sound like an *** by putting it step by step, but I see that some people are mentioning that the bard is best suited to be the puller, as they have not seen parties where the bard could use a co-puller, and/or 25-30k'ish an hour is fine for them. But I'm not talking about when the bard couldn't use a co-puller--I'm talking about when they could use one, and I am also claiming that such situations exist. Here's what I mean:

*Setting: Your bard awesome and can't possibly pull any faster
*Setting: MP/healing is not an issue
*Setting: DPS is at the point where, ignoring the Cor's DPS, there is still a surplus DPS (mobs are being killed faster than they can respawn and be pulled)
*Premise: Pull rate could be increased by adding another puller to pull far away mobs

*Premise: The DD job with the lowest DPS would be the most beneficial to have co-pull
*Premise: In a 3DD,Rdm,Brd,Cor PT, the Cor is likely the DD with the lowest DPS
Conclusion1: The Cor can increase pull rate (exp/hr) by co-pulling in this situation
*Premise: Parties should seek to maximize exp/hr
Conclusion2: The Cor should thus be co-pulling in this situation

DarcAvtar, the reason why your party's kill speed did not exceed pull rate is the same reason why I agree that you should have been DD'ing in that party--because you were out-dps'ing the war. I've seen good DD cor's, but if a Cor is even close to out dd'ing another DD in the party, then that party is not the one that I'm talking about in this OP. If wivres break your chain even remotely often, that is not the type of party I'm referring to. If just a couple bird pulls from the other level sorts your repops out and you're still not short of mobs, that's not the type of party I'm talking about. A lot of you are boasting parties up to 30k/hr+ in these types of parties that I am personally not referring to. Maybe the limit of exp/hr is higher than I thought it was.

I have boasted myself of solo pulling up to 35k/hr on bard several times (and this is true; but at mid birds only), so if I can do that then why would I possibly make a thread like this? Well two reasons: 1. I don't expect nearly all bards to be able to do that; most can't. and 2. Maybe the limit of exp/hr is actually higher than 35k/hr (at mid birds). I've personally experienced hitting this 35k/hr mark both as bard and as DD in party, killing multiple wivres in a row and having to run half way across the floor to look for potential repops (downtime). I knew that if my Cor would be pulling, we could maybe have some mamools at camp instead of having to wait, or maybe a bird or wivre from lower.

At MMJ the exp/hr is lower. I don't think (not sure) I've broken 27-28k/hr w/ cor roll at north or south; that's about what we hit when there are no mobs left. But the thing I'm wondering about MMJ is this: it's big; there's no reason south or north camp should end 1-2 skoffin in. Couldn't a 2nd puller help pull the entire pit, or pull south camp's mobs to north camp, and vice versa? MMJ requires a lot more running than bird camp. Perhaps the role of a Cor co-puller becomes more clear if I refer to this scenario instead.

But I don't expect nearly all parties to be like this. So maybe the topic should be changed from "Cor/nin co-pulling in 25k/hr+ parties" to "cor co-pulling in 'there are no mobs up' ~30k/hr+ parties."
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Shamaya, Asura
#22 May 13 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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880 posts
I still think you are over thinking the COR co-pulling thing. If you have to bust out darts to co pull then something isn't quite right. I am not saying I do not toss out the light shot when needed but when the brd is riding timers I see little point in myself running around. When killing Wivres COR tends to be the heavy hitter between 2k+ slugs and quick draw shots. Rate me down if you want but I leveled COR for a couple reasons, one of them was having ~30k/hr pts by picking up one of my brd friends and pretty much random folks after that. You are a COR you should be making these kind of parties if that makes me an *** or an elitist fine but I saw make the most of your jobs potential.
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