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COR + JoyeuseFollow

#1 Apr 30 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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hey there, currently lvl'ing COR and looking toward some gear for COR @ 75
just wondering about the Joyeuse.
obviously it's an awsome piece for merits if u can get it and if u melee for TP, however would you guys say it's an Essential piece? aka is it worth stopping lvling COR to go camp for a while and get it? any advice would be great

thanks a lot
#2 Apr 30 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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legolasaj wrote:
hey there, currently lvl'ing COR and looking toward some gear for COR @ 75
just wondering about the Joyeuse.
obviously it's an awsome piece for merits if u can get it and if u melee for TP, however would you guys say it's an Essential piece? aka is it worth stopping lvling COR to go camp for a while and get it? any advice would be great

thanks a lot

As I stated in a previos post IMHO Joyeuse(or MK) is Priority #1 for any Career Buccaneer. Martial Gun is #2.

It's up you whether you stop leveling to get it, but you want to get it. It is worth the time and effort required to get it

~Ath
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#3 Apr 30 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Which of the two Merc kris or Joytoy would you use if you were 75 and had both?
#4 Apr 30 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I have both and I use M.Kris.

The actual net damage output difference between the two is fairly small; Joyeuse will win in some situations, while M.Kris will win in others. However, M.Kris unquestionably generates more TP than Joyeuse, and as a COR/DNC, that's the winning factor.
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#5 Apr 30 2009 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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How often does the M Kris hit for 0 damage with it's 8 damage rating?
#6 Apr 30 2009 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a joyeuse guy myself. Don't own an mkris but obviously they are both good. I'd think joyeuse would win for melee DOT but mkris would win for tp gain (and therefore more frequent slugs). Also a COR's sword skill caps at 240 while it's dagger skill caps at 256.

But definitely you want at least one of the two. In some situations a vulcan's staff, axe grip and shooting for TP will serve you better. Maybe in others a trailers kukri and shooting for extremely evasive mobs perhaps (Byakko maybe) but this won't happen much.
#7 Apr 30 2009 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mjrna wrote:
How often does the M Kris hit for 0 damage with it's 8 damage rating?


A low damage weapon doesn't make you hit for zero, low attack makes you hit for zero.

#8 Apr 30 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
How often does the M Kris hit for 0 damage with it's 8 damage rating?


Like the above poster said, its attack that makes you hit for 0. As cor has higher skill with dagger than sword, if M Kris hit for 0, Joy would have for **** sure hit for 0 in its place (or missed).

I think the deciding factor for many CORs is Gil and Merits. I am a THF main, I had dagger merits. I will never have sword merits.
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#9 Apr 30 2009 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
Like the above poster said, its attack that makes you hit for 0. As cor has higher skill with dagger than sword, if M Kris hit for 0, Joy would have for **** sure hit for 0 in its place (or missed).

Not exactly. There are certain situations where Joyeuse will hit for single-digits but M.Kris hits for 0, due to rounding.

However, in merits, that's not relevant. With the exception of Demoralizing Roar, I don't think I've ever hit for 0 with M.Kris in meripo.
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#10 May 01 2009 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I refused to accept the whole "higher Att means less chance at hitting for 0 no matter what" notion, when way back when, my /ra on Sky gods were hitting for greater than 0 more often than the thieve's daggers.. Who had greater Att than I had Raat.

As I've said a lot now, I believe Joyeuse contributes more helpful damage, not necessarily always allowing for the most damage possible. The only time I could envision myself choosing MK over Joy would be /Dnc.
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#11 May 01 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I also picked Kris because I have dagger merits (and I got lucky on several high-gil ISNM & BCNMs). It certainly is capable of generating more TP, and since I /DNC, too, it's a simple choice.

That, and Charybdis is religiously camped by people on Gilgamesh for some reason. Still, since I don't have a Suppa or Sword merits...not likely to ever happen anyway.
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#12 May 01 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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At the time Joyeuse was much more accessable as I earned up several boons over the years. MK has always intrgued me tho. I wish I could try it out before I commited to the price tag.

MK generates a lot of TP but roughly how much faster then Joy? Anyone. An approximate is good enough.

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#13 May 01 2009 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A low damage weapon doesn't make you hit for zero, low attack makes you hit for zero.


A low damage weapon can help, though.

A DMG:1 weapon is the only type of weapon that you can actually FORCE to hit for 0 consistently by pitting it up against a mob with significant enough DEF, as countless RDM Ceremonial Dagger soloists can attest.
#14 May 01 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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No doubt if I had 3 million gil and nothing better to spend it on I'd get m kris. The acc advantage of daggers with cor is nothing to sneeze at. Much easier to get a haste build going with dagger than with sword.

But since 3 million gil would be spent on flame rings, alky bracelets triumph earrings, and a few more high ticket items, I'll suffer along with joyeuse.
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#15 May 01 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I have both too and I use Joyeuse personally. I find it hard to believe that the improved TP gain and more frequent WS of the merc kris can overcome the absolutely abysmal DPS, as compared with the spectacular DPS of Joyeuse. For COR/DNC that would probably be a different story. Plus, as an elvaan I look slightly less fruity meleeing with a sword than I do with a dagger...slightly.
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#16 May 01 2009 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Admiral Viska wrote:
MK generates a lot of TP but roughly how much faster then Joy? Anyone. An approximate is good enough.

~Ath

1.45 vs 1.90, I believe. There are other things to consider, like DA boosts helping Joy more than MK, and the 16 skill advantage of MK, etc, but as you see they can be on both sides.

Edited, May 1st 2009 6:43pm by Carrilei
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#17 May 01 2009 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
Admiral Viska wrote:
MK generates a lot of TP but roughly how much faster then Joy? Anyone. An approximate is good enough.

~Ath

1.45 vs 1.90, I believe. There are other things to consider, like DA boosts helping Joy more than MK, and the 16 skill advantage of MK, etc, but as you see they can be on both sides.

Edited, May 1st 2009 6:43pm by Carrilei

Thanks Carr. The reason I ask is because sometimes messing around it would be great to have the extra tp at hand when i'm /DNC. Not so much for merit PTs but when i'm out doing god knows what.

Also the fact I have 7 dagger merits and only 5 sword. I've been thinking about going 6 and 6 (I have 8/8 Marksmanship already) but i'm gonna hold off to see if they raise the cap.

I think I'll stick to Joy. 3.5M is alot to drop when saving for Skadi.
Thanks.

Ath
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#18 May 01 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I've never used MK in merits but I feel that Joy is better suited for me. I usually get to 100% tp in time for a 'killig blow' around 25% mob health each round. IMO if I had a MK I would gain TP faster BUT I would be sitting on it longer until I use my WS. Most merits I'm either /WAR or /RNG so wsing too early would just mean more mp wasted on me.

Also with Chaos/and or Fighters on, I sometimes pull hate with my DPS,so without any parse it shows me that with 4 sword merits + suppa and +~30 acc, I'm adding a decent amount of dmg with just a Joyeuse and waiting to WS until 1/4 of the mobs health.
#19 May 02 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Default
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legolasaj wrote:
aka is it worth stopping lvling COR to go camp for a while and get it?


Is COR going to be your merit job? If so, then then you want Joyeuse or MK. But outside of dynamis, you will rarely melee in any endame event. If you have another merit job you should just get to 75 and worry about it later.
#20 May 02 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Clyne wrote:
But outside of dynamis, you will rarely melee in any endame event.

I honestly don't get what compels people to say this all the time.. It couldn't be further from the truth.
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#21 May 02 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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The only time you shouldn't melee endgame is against stronger HNMs... most "events" you can melee no problem.
Quote:
Is COR going to be your merit job?

COR is like the best merit job in the game, why wouldn't you use it to merit!
#22 May 02 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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Oddly enough Dynamis is about the only endgame where I don't melee. I prefer /RDM in a Quick Draw focused set up.

I melee in Limbus, Salvage, Nyzul with out any problem. And COR is of course very kick *** in merits^^

Ath
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#23 May 03 2009 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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When I hit 75 I sat down with a pen and paper and tried to take into account all factors for joy vs merc. I had to average a lot of things because there are times when we have evokers and corsair roll on ourselves instead of attack. I tried to be a thorough as I could taking into account DA, acc, etc.

Can't remember off the top of my head but I think the magic number was 943 for ranger sub. As in, if your ws averages more than 943 damage the kris was better (since it allows more ws) and if your ws average was below 943 the joy was better (due to a higher proportion of damage coming from melee attacks). This was on birds btw and assumed a ws the instant you hit 100 tp (which may or may not happen)


In practice the advantages of kris and joy are not in their damage differences imo. The kris' main advantage is it makes you more likely to be able to have 100 tp or more when the mob is at 25% health or less. As a /rng or /war its always preferable to ws at 25% instead of 80%.

The joy's main advantage is that it spreads damage out. Yeah, its still a spike come WS time, but since they come a touch more infrequently and melee damage is added, it allows for 'smoother' damage.

I dunno. I see /rng and /war just beat the **** out of a mob and wsing at 95% health then using up mp for the next 30 seconds and I'm just not a fan. I've been the mage in that pt and its taxing. For that reason I lean toward kris a little more. I would say it's it your beat interests to have one or the other though.
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#24Kerberoz, Posted: May 03 2009 at 7:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Fail... why is the mob living that long?
#25 May 04 2009 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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Admiral Viska wrote:
Oddly enough Dynamis is about the only endgame where I don't melee. I prefer /RDM in a Quick Draw focused set up.

I melee in Limbus, Salvage, Nyzul with out any problem. And COR is of course very kick *** in merits^^

Ath

<-- New 75, hoping to bring COR to Einherjar and Dynamis...

Even maxed QD Recast at -15 through Merits and Mirke...are you using your MP to help heal people up a bit between QD's? I guess never having done it I'm not sure what to do when you're not using an instant JA every 45 seconds.
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#26 May 04 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Recasting Stoneskin & Blink? lol

Add in a roll and there you go! :)

Too bad /RDM doesn't get Raise...Then I'd be taking it to Campaign battles, too...maybe.
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#27 May 04 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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heavensword wrote:
Recasting Stoneskin & Blink? lol

Add in a roll and there you go! :)

^This Yes I spam the following spells:
  • Stoneskin
  • Blink
  • Cure III

Helps with the Uggy requirements. I'm 95% of the time in the BLM PT with Evoker's and Wizard's on. QD MAB set up GO!

In most other events im /DNC and meleeing it up in the front lines.

~Ath

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#28 May 04 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Fail... why is the mob living that long?


Because not everything is a colibri? I don't like being hit in the face by a dahak in nyzul. I don't like pulling hate on upper floor gears in salvage. It's not fun wsing a full health skoffin when everyone else blew their tp on the last mob.

Even if its two attack rounds the point is valid......cor/rng or cor/war will take more damage than anyone else in the party so if the mob looks at them instead of someone else you are becoming a drain on the pt's resources and there is really not too much to debate there.

But I wouldn't expect someone who refuses to level whm sub for blm to be concerned with any other pt members anyway. It's the numbers that are most important.

Edited, May 4th 2009 1:38pm by BarberofSeville
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#29 May 05 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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BarberofSeville wrote:
Quote:
Fail... why is the mob living that long?


Because not everything is a colibri? I don't like being hit in the face by a dahak in nyzul. I don't like pulling hate on upper floor gears in salvage. It's not fun wsing a full health skoffin when everyone else blew their tp on the last mob.


You make a good point that people too often assume everything is a meripo mob that dies quick.

That being said... nobody is forcing you to WS a full health mob and pull hate. You can always, you know, WAIT until the tank (or front line DDs if there's no dedicated tank) get hate before you unleash a WS. You're just running into the same issue that any DD needs to learn. Don't use a reckless WS when it's gonna cause you to take hate and take a beating. Particularly when, as you say, these aren't enemies that are gonna die really fast. You'll get your chances, so hold up on that first WS.

Yeah, it might reduce your overall damage output if you aren't able to always WS right away at 100tp. Deal with it. Especially if, as you claim, you feel the plight of the healers and the party resources being expended on the COR who takes some hits... well, avoid that situation by being a little more patient.

Edited, May 5th 2009 3:22pm by Anza
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#30 May 05 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
BarberofSeville wrote:
Quote:
Fail... why is the mob living that long?


Because not everything is a colibri? I don't like being hit in the face by a dahak in nyzul. I don't like pulling hate on upper floor gears in salvage. It's not fun wsing a full health skoffin when everyone else blew their tp on the last mob.


You make a good point that people too often assume everything is a meripo mob that dies quick.

That being said... nobody is forcing you to WS a full health mob and pull hate. You can always, you know, WAIT until the tank (or front line DDs if there's no dedicated tank) get hate before you unleash a WS. You're just running into the same issue that any DD needs to learn. Don't use a reckless WS when it's gonna cause you to take hate and take a beating. Particularly when, as you say, these aren't enemies that are gonna die really fast. You'll get your chances, so hold up on that first WS.

Yeah, it might reduce your overall damage output if you aren't able to always WS right away at 100tp. Deal with it. Especially if, as you claim, you feel the plight of the healers and the party resources being expended on the COR who takes some hits... well, avoid that situation by being a little more patient.

Edited, May 5th 2009 3:22pm by Anza

I do pretty much the same though since i'm usually /DNC ill take this time to reapply Drain Samba or Cure one of the DD's. Much better then WS and taking a pecking flurry to the face!

~Ath
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#31 May 07 2009 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
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Admiral Viska wrote:
Thanks Carr. The reason I ask is because sometimes messing around it would be great to have the extra tp at hand when i'm /DNC. Not so much for merit PTs but when i'm out doing god knows what.

I've been thinking about weapon choice for /Dnc a bit, and I actually don't know if I am ready to conclude that MK is superior to Joyeuse.

Roughly, you can conclude that Joy will amass 150% the TP of a normal weapon, and MK 200%. So in this regard, Joy is only 3/4 the weapon Kris is. However, I do think melee damage has to be considered to some degree - reason being, I was asking myself how much more curing support MK would really allow, in comparison to Joy? Would there ever really be a situation where /Dnc Joyeuse TP gain would not be enough curing, but /Dnc Mercurial Kris TP gain would? I find that doubtful*. So in comes the outside consideration of melee DoT.

Joyeuse splits are usually around 50/50; probably more like 45/50 DoT/WS if you have very strong WS gear. MK splits from what I've seen are more like 20/80 or 25/75. We know both the Joy and MK ratios add up to a similar amount of total damage, so this is easy to figure: Joyeuse should roughly double the melee DoT MK does. Probably a little more than 2x.

So the initial thought process was, most TP gain = best choice for /Dnc. But I'm unsure about that now. 3/4 the TP gain but 2x~ the melee damage may be preferred if it still allows your mage(s) to perform at the exact same level or very close to it. It also has the added benefit of feeding less TP, but that's a distant thing to factor in.

*Do note that I don't just mean keeping people alive; I do mean considering everything - any stress alleviation /Dnc is providing to the mage(s), allowing them to perform better.. From player buffs to mob debuffs.

If anyone sees a flaw in my logic, do let me know.

Edited, May 7th 2009 7:30am by Carrilei
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#32 May 07 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Believe it or not the real reason I was wondering was becuase my DRK buddy and I duo alot of stuff (more then we should be capable of Smiley: sly) and I think it would be fun to mess around with. He often times takes more DMG then I can keep up with myself as /DNC.

I'm pretty happy with my performance with Joyeuse in most places, but I wish I had more combat merit wiggle room. I hope they do expand it.

~Ath
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