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Prioritizing Merits for a new 75Follow

#1 Apr 28 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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I'm 73 and hopefully 75 in the next week or two, but have been thinking about merits a bit recently. I know there are some varying schools of thought, but my biggest question is how to best prioritize what to get first vs. what is better off to get later.

Currently I have 3 sword merits and am willing to take this to 8 (4 at a minimum, but 8 probably).

For Tier 1, I'm thinking of QD Accuracy and QD Recast maxed for both. I'm going to get the ACP Armor with QD -5 and MAtt +4 as well.

For Tier 2, all 4 seem pretty useful. I think I like Snake Eye the best, so probably go 5 with that. Leaning towards 4 Fold and 1 Loaded Deck as well.

Any thoughts on what I'm looking to merit, and the bigger question, given what I'm looking at, what categories would take more priority over the others?

Thanks!

Edited, Apr 28th 2009 12:31pm by dawgdchi
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#2 Apr 28 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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I can't tell you what's "best" because that's very subjective, but I can tell you what I did. First I planned out my merits like you have. Mine are slightly different, but your choices are very common as well. I did:

5 Quickdraw accuracy
5 Quickdraw recast

1 Loaded Deck
5 Snake Eye
3 Winning Streak
1 Fold

Then I simply spent my points in the most efficient manner without any regard for what would be the most potent upgrades. In other words, I did all the 1 point upgrades, followed by all the two point upgrades, and so forth.

As for Winning Streak vs. Fold merits..I don't want to open that debate up again so let's just call it personal preference. I love having 6 minute buffs and I rarely need Fold, only when I double bust really, which is very rare with capped Snake Eye.
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#3 Apr 28 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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I would suggest getting Corsair specific merits before combat skills since that'll affect your entire party.

QD Recast/Accuracy are pretty much the de-facto standard for Corsair Group 1 Merits. Recast is probably something you'd want to take care of first, but it really doesn't get all that great until you can dump a lot of points in it all at once - at least until -6s recast.

For Group 2, it's a bit debatable. Maxing Snake Eye is pretty much a given as that will make the biggest difference in rolling, by far. 1 in Loaded Deck makes Random Deal significantly more potent since it guarantees at least one JA will be restored assuming more than one JA is waiting on recast. Now the debatable part is 4 Fold or 1 Fold + 3 Winning Streak. I'd suggest the former as it allows you to be more aggressive on rolls.

I would prioritize at least unlocking Snake Eye, Fold, and Loaded Deck first. Afterwards, max out Snake Eye. The rest of the order is up to you.
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#4 Apr 28 2009 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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OK my Smiley: twocents

Tier One
  • 5 - Quick Draw Recast
  • 5 - Quick Draw Accuracy

Tier Two
  • 1 - Loaded Deck
  • 5 - Snake Eye
  • The rest are up to you
I recommend either: 3 - winning Streak 1 - Fold or 4 - Fold depending on your play style.

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#5 Apr 28 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks guys, I think that pretty much backs up what I'm thinking for merits and gave me some good ideas on priority.

The reason I came with 4 Fold was due to this line in Callisto's Guide that really hit the difference between 4F or 1F&3WS
Quote:
Typically it's a matter of 3 Winning Streak 1 Fold vs. 4 Fold 0 Streak. Having an extra minute in between rolling will in fact raise your damage output, sometimes substantially, especially when you are rotating in backline rolls that require you to peel off of the target and run back to the mages. However, the extra aggressiveness that Fold allows will raise the average value of the buffs you place on your party members, helping the entire group's output, not just yours.

I'm obviously into support role jobs, and while I enjoy putting up the Powa Slugs on things, my first concern is making sure the group is as strong as possible, not just myself. This part's a personal call to make, though.

If I had to pick, I'd pick more party support vs. personal DD. I like the idea of being able to be a bit more aggressive and land those higher rolls, more double ups on 7s and maybe even 8s if Fold is up and SE isn't.
Quote:
I would prioritize at least unlocking Snake Eye, Fold, and Loaded Deck first. Afterwards, max out Snake Eye. The rest of the order is up to you.

Open to other suggestions, but I do like this approach.
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#6 Apr 28 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If I had to pick, I'd pick more party support vs. personal DD. I like the idea of being able to be a bit more aggressive and land those higher rolls, more double ups on 7s and maybe even 8s if Fold is up and SE isn't.


Having 6 minute rolls to me has nothing to do with _personal_ DD. It's about keeping the buffs on everyone else 100%. I honestly very rarely need Fold and I would definitely call myself an "aggresive" roller. I think some people are just afraid of having one bust on them.

Edit: I said I didn't want to argue and I meant it. >_< I just feel the need to offer my experiences.

Edited, Apr 28th 2009 11:02am by Filian
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#7 Apr 28 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Another question... what priority would you give to Marksmanship merits?

Let's suppose someone goes with this not terribly uncommon setup:
5/5 Snake Eye
4/5 Fold
1/5 Loaded Deck
5/5 QD Timer
5/5 QD Accuracy
8/8 Marksmanship

Besides the question on WHICH merits, which order would you do them? I've fairly recently started meriting my COR and unlocked Snake Eye and Fold, Loaded Deck coming next. Wondering where to go from there though. I merit kinda slowly, so I'm not going to just get them all in a couple weeks and call it a day. I don't have a ton of time to dedicate in huge chunks for exp/merits between RL and FFXI events.

And I intentionally left Sword/Dagger off. I have 8/8 H2H for PUP and MNK that's not going anywhere, and I'm planning to take my RNG from 37-75 some time so I want 8/8 Marks since I'll use it on two jobs. I may put the remaining 4 in Sword... but at any rate I'll wait on that until I actually get a Charby pop and have friends to help take the beast down.
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#8 Apr 28 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Priority IMO:

Quickdraw recast -> 3
Snake eye -> 1
Fold -> 1
Winning streak -> 1

After you get those, start finishing off recast, then get snake eye maxed followed by winning streak. Then of course after those, finish off quickdraw accuracy.

Reason you don't max them at once is so that you can use less merit points to get faster upgrades. Also reason I chose winning streak over fold is because I enjoy having my extra long XI streaks.


#9 Apr 28 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Filian wrote:
Quote:
If I had to pick, I'd pick more party support vs. personal DD. I like the idea of being able to be a bit more aggressive and land those higher rolls, more double ups on 7s and maybe even 8s if Fold is up and SE isn't.


Having 6 minute rolls to me has nothing to do with _personal_ DD. It's about keeping the buffs on everyone else 100%. I honestly very rarely need Fold and I would definitely call myself an "aggresive" roller. I think some people are just afraid of having one bust on them.

Edit: I said I didn't want to argue and I meant it. >_< I just feel the need to offer my experiences.

Edited, Apr 28th 2009 11:02am by Filian
I pretty much have to agree here. The extra minute for me was the way to go. Its always in effect, where as fold is only used as needed. But again, it's a matter of personal preferance

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#10 Apr 28 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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I should add, that I actually went 3 Winning Streak + 1 Fold, as I tend to not need Fold as much - but I don't ever double-up on 7 unless it's an unlucky.

I used to pull a lot in merits before, and that used to be my rationalization for 3 WS. However, now that I do merits with a friend as a Bard, I'm almost never pulling. I guess the argument can be made that if you need to Fold, then you're denying your party buffs for about a minute (assuming you either VI+VI, or land an unlucky number and wait until 0:40 to double-up), but meh. I've been considering dropping WS for Fold, but most of the times I end up not needing to Fold very often.

Regarding Combat Skill merits, it really does depend mostly on whether or not you have other jobs that can use those merits better. If Corsair is your only job, then 8 Sword/Dagger + 8 Marksmanship makes sense. Combat skill merits should still take less of a priority than any of your job specifics though.
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#11 Apr 28 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Great points guys. Especially about Winning Streak. Thanks guys!
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#12 Apr 28 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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For pure buff potency, Fold beats Winning Streak handily. Winning Streak can only increase your net buff output if one of the following two statements are true:

a) all the rolls you have active landed on above-average results, or
b) you are only on a 2-roll rotation

In contrast, Fold allows you to roll more aggressively for better results. (And you can't really make the argument that you "roll just as aggressively" with 1 merit in Fold; you simply cannot have Fold available often for that to be true.) That being said, I went with Winning Streak x3 and Fold x1, just because I'm lazy and I don't want to have to roll as often.

As for cat1 merits, I went QD recast x5 and Phantom Roll recast x5. I don't personally believe that QD accuracy is worth giving up shorter recasts on PR.
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#13 Apr 28 2009 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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If winning streak is more useful than fold, it's because you don't roll aggressively enough. Better to have a minute with no roll than have 4+ minutes with an unlucky roll.

Anyway, get first 1-2 tiers of everything you plan on finishing, then cap combat merits, then max snake eye. Rest can follow in any order. Snake eye is god.
#14 Apr 28 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I am definitely going 5/5 in QD Acc/Recast, as well as Snake Eye. After that, I believe it does come down to preference.

I am planning on 3 Fold and 2 Loaded Deck, because the extra roll time would be annoying to me if I wanted to replace a roll, and I like the extra chance at resetting timers.

The 10 min Fold timer would allow me to be even more aggressive with rolls. I've found that 15 minutes from my 1 merit is just too much for my taste. I might keep LD at 1 and put the extra into Fold, because I often times find myself needing to fold around 7-8 minutes into the timer.

Have fun meriting!


EDIT: Forgot Combat skills. COR was not my first 75; SAM then NIN (and I only finished NIN to get a few marksmanship merits for COR & THF ahead of time). I merited Dagger also (+4; 8 skill), and it is capped on COR. I usually don't have any accuracy issues until I Slug :)

Edited, Apr 28th 2009 4:19pm by heavensword
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#15 Apr 28 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Default
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RVW wrote:
Winning Streak can only increase your net buff output if one of the following two statements are true:

a) all the rolls you have active landed on above-average results, or
b) you are only on a 2-roll rotation

Well, given you're most often on a 3 roll rotation at 75.. And probably on a 2 roll rotation more often than 4 as well.. It's not like the scenarios you described are rare. And really, it does have more of an effect than just those two - many, many subtle ways it helps you increase overall buff contribution that some like to write-off as 'useless.' How one considers any enhancement to our buffs useless, I don't know. I guess to some if it's not an 'in your face' obvious boon, it shouldn't be considered.

Kerb wrote:
If winning streak is more useful than fold, it's because you don't roll aggressively enough. Better to have a minute with no roll than have 4+ minutes with an unlucky roll.

Oversimplifying it imo. The reality of it is, in my mind, that luck will determine which is the better merit - who knew, playing this job? At a given event or day, which merit is better is situational, and the values always in flux. Generally the better your luck is, the better Winning Streak merits are, and the worse your luck is, the better Fold merits are in relation.

I just dislike the 4/5 Fold or GTFO mentality of some.. I mean, especially with Commodore Frac now, who's to say 5/5 Fold isn't superior to 4/5? Then are all these 4/5 Fold people wrong, even by their own reasoning?

Get full Snake Eye and at least one in Fold, and after that do what you think is best for the way you play. I know and respect some that have gone with 0 Winning Streak merits, 1, or 3. The concrete data of that decision is not what's important, it's what you're doing with it.
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#16 Apr 28 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Carrilei wrote:
And really, it does have more of an effect than just those two - many, many subtle ways it helps you increase overall buff contribution that some like to write-off as 'useless.' How one considers any enhancement to our buffs useless, I don't know. I guess to some if it's not an 'in your face' obvious boon, it shouldn't be considered.

Oh, it has a benefit: it allows you to (ostensibly) spend more time DDing, because you aren't rerolling as often. But that's not increasing your buff potency.

Quote:
Generally the better your luck is, the better Winning Streak merits are, and the worse your luck is, the better Fold merits are in relation.

This isn't a very useful statement, as it is rather ridiculous (or impossible, even) to base your merit choices on what kind of luck you plan to have.

Quote:
I just dislike the 4/5 Fold or GTFO mentality of some.. I mean, especially with Commodore Frac now, who's to say 5/5 Fold isn't superior to 4/5?

Loaded Deck and relic body have just as little to do with each other as do Snake Eye and relic hat.

Loaded Deck increases the accuracy of Random Deal.
Relic body increases the potential reward.

Saying that relic body is potentially a replacement for Loaded Deck is like saying that Barrage is potentially a replacement for Sharpshot. They complement each other.

Furthermore, it's also kind of silly to imply that I'm saying "4/5 Fold or GTFO" in response to a post where I state that I have 3 merits in Winning Streak.

Quote:
Get full Snake Eye and at least one in Fold, and after that do what you think is best for the way you play. I know and respect some that have gone with 0 Winning Streak merits, 1, or 3. The concrete data of that decision is not what's important, it's what you're doing with it.

If the concrete data isn't important, why even bother discussing it? Everyone should just do what they feel like.
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#17 Apr 28 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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If you really cannot think of any other instance where having longer roll duration is in any way helpful (to your buff contributions), I do have to question the entirety of the thought given to the subject.

One hint: It's not always about buff potency (though Winning Streak does help there in more ways than you give it credit for), it can be about whether or not a buff is active at all.

RVW wrote:
Furthermore, it's also kind of silly to imply that I'm saying "4/5 Fold or GTFO" in response to a post where I state that I have 3 merits in Winning Streak.

Wasn't directed at you, or even so much Kerb for that matter. Or anyone in this thread really. Sorry for any confusion.

RVW wrote:
If the concrete data isn't important, why even bother discussing it? Everyone should just do what they feel like.

There's a difference between a debate where both sides have legitimate rationale as to their validity, and a comparison where it's entirely one-sided. If you want a comparison even sticking within our Cat 2 merits, you need not look past Snake Eye. Imo, if you don't max that out, it's a mistake. There is simply too much in favor for it, over the other choices. Fold vs. Winning Streak is not like that.

To make a SAT reference, the Fold and Winning Streak decision is much more comparable to PR recast and QD Acc than it is Snake Eye vs. any other merit. And mentally I've had enough of this debate over time; I'll continue to re-evaluate my opinions as always, and listen to others, but I'm sick of this lol.


RVW wrote:
Loaded Deck increases the accuracy of Random Deal.
Relic body increases the potential reward.

>> Also by the way, I believe you're off on what Commodore Frac does. In addition to the small chance to reset 2 JA's at once, it also increases the chance to reset one JA, which is similar to a Loaded Deck merit. Now, I don't think the % increase is as high (it may be, I'm unsure), and it will not guarantee one to be reset if 2 more more are waiting on recast, but the point is... With Commodore Frac in hand, I think the 5/5 Fold argument got a little stronger (perhaps not much, but I think it's worthy to at least note). I think 4/5 Fold vs 5/5 Fold is also a difficult decision.

Edited, Apr 28th 2009 9:18pm by Carrilei
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#18 Apr 28 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Personally went 5/5 QD recast/acc
5 Snake eye
3 Fold
1 LD
1 WS

My rationale: I use fold a fair bit. Not infrequently I'll hit an 8 on Chaos after using Snake eye to get off a 9 on evokers. Boom, DU and bust and RD to re-roll and hope for better luck. Happens more than I care to acknowledge.

So why not 4 Fold. Well simply put, I don't want to get too far ahead of my RD timer. Nothing like folding and having to wait 15-30 sec to re-roll.

And second is, I wanted 1 in WS to give some extra wiggle room. In a 4 roll rotation, if you are rolling right on the minute timers, you get a min of bonus time in case crap happens to keep on top of things. A merit in WS increases that to 1:20 which seems just about right for me in most "oh, crap" situations. I don't care about extending my DD time. just want to some room to play with so buffs are always up.

Other key merits: Marksmanship, Sword (joyeuse bearers)/Dagger (M. Kris wielders), STR, Crit +, MP - probably in that order
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#19 Apr 28 2009 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Carrilei wrote:
If you really cannot think of any other instance where having longer roll duration is in any way helpful (to your buff contributions), I do have to question the entirety of the thought given to the subject.

One hint: It's not always about buff potency (though Winning Streak does help there in more ways than you give it credit for), it can be about whether or not a buff is active at all.

Oh, I considered it. But given that the only situation in which this really happens is when a COR is being swapped among parties, and that such a circumstance is not particularly high on COR's priority list, I can't really justify choosing one's merits to account for it.

It also bears mentioning that any situation in which WS would apply in this manner is also one where PR recast would increase your buff output, in almost exactly the same fashion.

Quote:
There's a difference between a debate where both sides have legitimate rationale as to their validity, and a comparison where it's entirely one-sided. If you want a comparison even sticking within our Cat 2 merits, you need not look past Snake Eye. Imo, if you don't max that out, it's a mistake. There is simply too much in favor for it, over the other choices. Fold vs. Winning Streak is not like that.

To make a SAT reference, the Fold and Winning Streak decision is much more comparable to PR recast and QD Acc than it is Snake Eye vs. any other merit.

I think this speaks to my point.

PR recast affects your initial roll lag, and ability to quickly get a buff back up after a bust or fold. It, therefore, improves your buffing ability.

QD accuracy increases your QD damage*. However, no one would claim that it improves your buffing ability; it does something different.

Similarly, Fold improves your buffing ability, while WS increases your time available for DDing. That's not to say that DDing is unimportant, but for the Corsair that values his buffing ability over other concerns, Fold is the superior choice.

Quote:
>> Also by the way, I believe you're off on what Commodore Frac does. In addition to the small chance to reset 2 JA's at once, it also increases the chance to reset one JA, which is similar to a Loaded Deck merit.

Source?

In any case, even if this were true, it would only apply to Loaded Deck merits beyond the first. The first Loaded Deck merit is a drastic improvement over 0 LD merits; relic body is not even a remotely viable substitute.

*Strictly speaking, QD accuracy also improves sleep/dispel, but it's usually not relevant; on the stuff you can land Light/Dark shot on, you don't need QDacc merits, and on the stuff that you can't, QDacc merits won't help.

Edited, Apr 28th 2009 11:04pm by redvenomweb
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#20 Apr 28 2009 at 10:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Like I said, this is such a dead horse to me, I don't wish to continue debating - I'll at least reiterate what some have mentioned in this thread - that Winning Streak is not primarily a COR DD merit, but a COR roll enhancement merit, for the other party members. The fact that it improves COR damage is a secondary bonus. Rolling less often has many benefits, not nearly all that I can list at 2am when I'm feeling crappy - you get better use of Snake Eye/Random Deal, you can stay out of harm's way while keeping rolls up with better success, etc.. ****, rolling less often means less Busts, which treads in a slight way on the ground Fold has there.

RVW wrote:
Source?

In any case, even if this were true, it would only apply to Loaded Deck merits beyond the first. The first Loaded Deck merit is a drastic improvement over 0 LD merits; relic body is not even a remotely viable substitute.

Check the wiki.. Personally, while farming I've reset Flee what seems like a little more often (~50%), but the sample size isn't near enough. It could very well be acting like a 2nd Loaded Deck merit though, reducing the chance of failure by 10%.

We all know the first Loaded Deck merit is a very large improvement - however, I don't see how you can already conclude that the Commodore Frac enhancement isn't a similar boost given you didn't even know it existed a moment ago..

What you'd need to do is nix the 1 Loaded Deck merit, and test Random Deal with just the Commodore Frac on. Until that's done, I don't see how you can jump to such conclusions.

Edited, Apr 29th 2009 2:21am by Carrilei
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#21 Apr 29 2009 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Carrilei wrote:
Check the wiki.. Personally, while farming I've reset Flee what seems like a little more often (~50%), but the sample size isn't near enough. It could very well be acting like a 2nd Loaded Deck merit though, reducing the chance of failure by 10%.

Um, there is no cited data on the wiki... someone just edited the page and added that. I've never seen any tests on any FFXI forum that support such a conclusion, and given the nature of RD, there would have to be a LARGE amount of tests in order to show that this bonus actually exists. Furthermore, given that we already know for a fact what the Comm. Frac definitely does do (chance for two resets), the chances of it also having another bonus (which just so happens to be extremely difficult to prove) is unlikely.

It's like claiming that RNG AF+1 hands (which tests have show to add a shot to Barrage) also increase accuracy on Barrage: it's so incredibly difficult to prove (or disprove) that the person making the claim needs to show their work. "It seems like I get JAs back more" is not a test; it's superstition. It's facing west on Windsday for better drops.

Quote:
We all know the first Loaded Deck merit is a very large improvement - however, I don't see how you can already conclude that the Commodore Frac enhancement isn't a similar boost given you didn't even know it existed a moment ago..

What you'd need to do is nix the 1 Loaded Deck merit, and test Random Deal with just the Commodore Frac on. Until that's done, I don't see how you can jump to such conclusions.

Given that we don't even know what the base formula for RD resetting one JA is, much less the actual enhancement from the first LD merit, I don't see how you can judge Comm. Frac's supposed RD accuracy increase.

But more to the point, no one merits LD for the increase in RD accuracy when randomly restoring a single JA. If this was the only thing LD did, it would be among the most useless cat2 merits in the game. There is exactly one reason to put 1, and only 1, merit in Loaded Deck: guaranteed JA reset when more than one JA is down.

And given that no matter how "accurate" RD is, I still can't directly pick which JA is reset, any accuracy bonus (supposing it even exists) on Comm. Frac is almost entirely irrelevant. LD makes RD 100% accurate when more than one JA is down. Unless Comm. Frac also makes RD 100% accurate (which it doesn't), then it is ineligible as a substitute for LD. Full stop.

Edited, Apr 29th 2009 1:46am by redvenomweb
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#22 Apr 29 2009 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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Anyone else bored?
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#23 Apr 29 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
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MrVashy wrote:
Anyone else bored?

Smiley: snore
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#24 Apr 29 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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Heh, haven't seen a good fight err "debate" in a while but my 2 cents.

Winnign streak doesn't improve your buffs? WHAAAAAT? Ok, you roll a chaos 11 for 5 minutes. I roll a chaos 11 for 6 minutes. Seems pretty obvious to me that 6 minutes of the strong roll is better than 5. Alternately, if you roll poorly 6 mins of a bad roll is worse than 5 mins BUT you have the CHOICE to simply begin your next cycle earlier if you want to (and that's assuming snake eye, fold and random deal aren't enough to fix the bad roll). You'd have to mess up pretty badly to have that happen but it can occasionally.

Another argument I'd make against 4 in fold is this: Sure you can fold every 7 1/2 minutes or whatever.... but you can still only random deal with 20 minutes. Guess I'm not a huge fan of fold without random deal immediately after.

The other plus with 6 minute rolls is you can make yourself more effective based on your sub while keeping rolls up on others 24/7. If I'm /dd in an event, 4-roll set.. evokers to sch to chaos to fighters and I can keep chaos on me for 4 minutes instead of 3. If /mage, chaos, fighters, evokers, sch and I can keep evokers and sch on myself for 4 minutes. If it's a 3-roll setup, the benefit is even greater. Let's assume merits, /dd, evokers to chaos to COR. I can keep chaos on myself for 5 minutes. And like someone else previously mentioned, the less you have to roll, the less you're going to bust. Honestly I haven't rolled so badly that I've wanted more fold merits. I'll always roll on a 6 (cept evokers) and roll on an unlucky 7. I'll snake eye off unlucky 8s or 9s. Occasionally I'll get an unlucky with snake eye down but that's what fold and rdeal are for. You'd need 3 unluckys in one cycle to get yourself in a bad situation (snake eye the first, fold the second, leaving no options for the third) and more fold merits aren't going to help you there.


Honestly, imo, if you're busting enough to need 4 fold merits, ur doingitwrong. You'd ave to get really unlucky or roll like an idiot to bust that often.



Edited, Apr 30th 2009 2:10am by TDGSW
#25 Apr 29 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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#26 Apr 30 2009 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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TDGSW wrote:
Winnign streak doesn't improve your buffs? WHAAAAAT? Ok, you roll a chaos 11 for 5 minutes. I roll a chaos 11 for 6 minutes. Seems pretty obvious to me that 6 minutes of the strong roll is better than 5.

...except that you have to replace your XI Chaos well before the 6 minute mark anyway, since you have other rolls to rotate.

Quote:
Another argument I'd make against 4 in fold is this: Sure you can fold every 7 1/2 minutes or whatever.... but you can still only random deal with 20 minutes. Guess I'm not a huge fan of fold without random deal immediately after.

In aggressive situations, roll your last double-up ~5sec before the Double-Up window expires. You won't need to use RD when Phantom Roll will be back up anyway in 5-15 seconds.

Quote:
And like someone else previously mentioned, the less you have to roll, the less you're going to bust.

And likewise, the less you roll, the less you are going to hit Lucky or XI.

Probabilities work both ways.
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#27 Apr 30 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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"...except that you have to replace your XI Chaos well before the 6 minute mark anyway, since you have other rolls to rotate. "

Huh? Incorrect. The whole point of having 6-minute roll is so you DONT have to do that. Begin the cycle with the first roll (let's just say 4-roll cycle), 1 min later 2nd roll, another minute later 3rd, 1 min later 4th roll (this happens 3 minutes into the 6 min cycle)... you don't have to roll again for 3 full minutes and you can still stick every single roll you have to on the next cycle without anyone ever losing the effect. So if I stick Chaos 11 on the melees, they keep it for pretty close to 6 minutes. I myself may lose it sooner because I have to go buff mages but that's why you set your rotation up to maximize your own rolls. In a 3-roll cycle, I can keep chaos on myself 83% of the time, or for 5 consecutive minutes in a 6-minute span. In a 4 roll, it would stay up for 4 minutes out of 6.

"In aggressive situations, roll your last double-up ~5sec before the Double-Up window expires. You won't need to use RD when Phantom Roll will be back up anyway in 5-15 seconds."

Ok and if you do that you've lost an entire minute. If you're doing 4 rolls in 5 minutes, you're officially out of time and your first roll WILL wear before you can get back to it unless you skip a roll entirely. And this is assuming you've already busted once and used fold and random deal which has cost you at least 10 seconds minimum if you 20+.

On a 3-roll cycle, you've have plenty of time to replace the bad roll and wasted minute but.... if you're only rolling 3 times, how is snake eye and 1 fold merit not enough? Again, you'd have to be busting at a ridiculous rate to need this and if you're busting all the time, whether you replace the roll eventually or not, people are just going to remember you busting a ton.

I have been a COR main for probably a year now. COR and SAM are 1a, 1b jobs to me but i've spent the majority of my time on COR in 2009 by far. I can count the number of times I've busted so badly that I've wished for more fold merits on one hand.

Just don't see that much value in fold every 7.5 minutes when you can only rdeal every 20. You've already got snake eye every 5 minutes to bail you out of a bad roll. If you fold the first time and immediately random deal (assuming 1 loaded deck merit, which most people seem to agree is a good idea, and commodore frac), there's a decent shot that you're getting either snake eye or fold back anyway (sometimes in place of phantom roll back, but hey, you still got it back).

I hit luckys fairly often. Against Odin this week in a pt of SMNs, i nailed pup roll lucky 3 times in a row (no snake eye or fold needed, 4, 4 then 4 right off the bat) which was the entire fight. I hit 9s (non-unlucky ones), 10 and 11 fairly often too. Occassionally i'll leave a 7 up if the 8 in unlucky but ideally i'm gunning for lucky, or 9+ (unless 9 in unlucky of course). If i busted as often as you seem to suggest you do, I could redo merits and get more fold. It's not something I've ever needed and I'm far from a conservative roller.

Bottom line with 6 minutes is this: When you hit a good roll, you can enjoy it's benefit for a longer period of time. When you hit a bad roll, you snake eye, When you hit a second bad roll or maybe bust first, you fold/random deal. If you manage to bust or ***** up 3 times in that short a span (and again, u can snake eye EVERY FIVE MINUTES!!!).. you can always choose to immediately restart the cycle after 4 minutes instead of sitting on it for 6. Seriously, if you're busting so much that 5-minute snake eye, 15-minute fold and 20-minute random deal aren't enough to keep you out of trouble 95% of the time... you just aren't rolling very intelligently.

Take the first 25 minutes of any pt or event. Let's assume you burn fold and random deal in the first 5 minutes. In that 25-minute span, you can snake eye 5 times, fold twice (with 15 min timer) and random deal twice. That's at least 7 bad rolls you can correct assuming rdeal doesn't give you fold or seye back. If it does, that's 8 or even 9 rolls.... in 25 minutes....

On a 4-roll, 5-min cycle, you should be rolling 20 times in 25 minutes. You can adjust or take back at least 7 of those, which means if you bust or land on unlucky 35% of the time (which is EXTREMELY HIGH), you can fix it without more fold merits. With 7 1/2 min fold, you can correct 9 of 20 rolls. Are you really unlucky or busting 45% of your rolls? There's no way. Alternative, 4-roll 6-min cycle, you're rolling 17 times and can fix 7.

Often times, you don't even need 4 rolls. Most merit pts just want 3.. chaos, Cor and evokers. 25 minute span you're only rolling 13 times and can still fix 7 of them. That's over 50%. If you are honestly busting so much that you need more fold... well there's a thin line between aggressive and insanity I guess. Sure, once in a while you'll get a cold streak but there's no way in **** you should be busting so often that you need fold every 7.5 minutes, given that you already have other tools to prevent bad rolls.





#28 Apr 30 2009 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Easiest way I can sum it up is this:

Fold x4 only benefits you when you roll yourself into a bad situation. If you're burning snake eye left n right and doubling up on 8s and 9s needlessly, sure go for more fold.

Winning streak x3 benefits you a lot more frequently imo. When you stick a good roll, it stays on everyone longer. If you set up your cycle correctly, you can keep the rolls you want on yourself 1 minute longer every 6 minutes (16% of the time, every time).

And don't forget this lil gem too. You still have an extra merit that you didn't blow on Fold x4. You only used 3. This allows you to have BOTH loaded deck and fold and longer rolls and snake eye x5.
#29 May 01 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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Fold only gets rid of the negative stat on you. I have no idea where this 'selfish' concept has come from for people who merit winning streak. Fold does nothing but help you recover and it doesn't reset Phantom timers so, huh!?

I have 3 in WS and honestly i couldn't care any less if someone thinks i'm doing it wrong. If you want 4 Fold then go for it.
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#30 May 02 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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TDGSW wrote:
Huh? Incorrect. The whole point of having 6-minute roll is so you DONT have to do that. Begin the cycle with the first roll (let's just say 4-roll cycle), 1 min later 2nd roll, another minute later 3rd, 1 min later 4th roll (this happens 3 minutes into the 6 min cycle)... you don't have to roll again for 3 full minutes and you can still stick every single roll you have to on the next cycle without anyone ever losing the effect.

Then, by the same token, Winning Streak makes below-average rolls (e.g. VII on Chaos) last longer, and prolongs you from replacing it with a new, statistically-likely-to-be-superior attempt.

The bottom line is that, due to the way COR's roll rotations work, it is effectively impossible to extend the duration of strong rolls without also extending the duration of weak ones. In order to replace weak rolls and keep the strong ones, you need to use something like, say, Fold.

Quote:
If you're doing 4 rolls in 5 minutes, you're officially out of time and your first roll WILL wear before you can get back to it unless you skip a roll entirely.

...unless you have Phantom Roll recast merits, in which case you are just fine. So it all ties together.

Quote:
You've already got snake eye every 5 minutes to bail you out of a bad roll.

Statistically, Snake Eye provides more benefit when used on X than when used on Unlucky. No sane person would use Snake Eye on VI.

So effectively, Snake Eye is used every time you land on X or Unlucky, which means that the primary cases for Fold are:

a) when you land on VI, Double-Up, and get a VI
b) when you land on Unlucky, Snake Eye is down, and you bust on a Double-Up

Now, you can choose to just eat the Unlucky when your Snake Eye is down, but the point of more Fold merits is that you don't have to.
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#31 May 02 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
Now, you can choose to just eat the Unlucky when your Snake Eye is down, but the point of more Fold merits is that you don't have to.

Why eat Unlucky when you can just wait 40~ seconds and Double-Up?

I think what Filian said is true - that some are just afraid to have any Bust effect on them at all. The chances of double-Busting at 75 are extremely low. Also, if that were to ever happen, and you're doing something where the timing of your Wild Card isn't important.. You can then use that to clear your bad luck. I think that's something that's overlooked.

Edited, May 2nd 2009 11:09pm by Carrilei
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#32 May 02 2009 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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Guess we simply agree to disagree. Not saying fold merits are "wrong" because any COR who could have 20 tier 2 merits would clearly want to max out all 4 of them. There's no useless merits on COR. I just see more value in longer rolls because I simply do not bust enough to warrant more fold merits. Do i occasionally have to leave a XII chaos up? Yeah and unless you can fold every minute (which you can't), I'm betting you have to sometimes too.

If you can't see *any* value at all in being able to tailor the rolls you want on yourself to be on yourself 67% or even 83% (in a 3-roll cycle), then I don't know what to tell you. If you see no value in being able to stick a salvage boss fight with a strong MNKs roll for a full 6 minutes... don't know what to tell ya.

Fold x4-5 has its value too but only if you bust often or hit unlucky often. This analogy isn't perfect by any means, but it's like zanshin on a SAM. Zanshin is only really useful if you plan on missing. Folding every 5 or 7.5 minutes is only being put to its full use if you plan on busting or rolling unlucky a lot. Also, the true value of fold is pairing it with random deal, which you can't do every time. Now if you could fold AND random deal every 5 or 7 minutes, that'd change everything. My guess would be that most people choose not to go that path because fold without random deal just isn't all that hot.
#33 May 02 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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TDGSW wrote:
If you can't see *any* value at all in being able to tailor the rolls you want on yourself to be on yourself 67% or even 83% (in a 3-roll cycle), then I don't know what to tell you.

Of course I see the value; it allows you to increase your DD output. Which is what I've been saying that Winning Streak does.

Quote:
If you see no value in being able to stick a salvage boss fight with a strong MNKs roll for a full 6 minutes... don't know what to tell ya.

Like I said, both your strong and your weak rolls are extended, so I think that is more of a glass-is-half-full analysis of Winning Streak.
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#34 May 02 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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If I felt the DD advantage Winning Streak gives was all the merits did, or even it was even the focus over the buffing aspect, I would've gone with 4 or 5x Fold.

There's more to it. No need to over-simplify it, just to make your mindset clean and clear.

Also, your claims of extending 1 good roll = all rolls are incorrect. Let's assume average Evoker's, lucky or XI Chaos, and average Fighter's.. Explain to me what is stopping you from waiting an extra minute after re-rolling Evoker's? Nothing...

In fact, in that example, even if you had an underaverage initial Evoker's, it'd still work fine as you can reroll asap there.

Edited, May 3rd 2009 1:29am by Carrilei
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#35 May 02 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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"Like I said, both your strong and your weak rolls are extended, so I think that is more of a glass-is-half-full analysis of Winning Streak."


True enough BUT... on average, what do you think your (or the avg COR's) ratio of strong rolls to weak rolls is. It's **** sure not 1:1. I'd define weak by staying on unlucky, busting, maybe consider a 7 weak, not sure whether 8 is "weak" or just "decent". It's roll dependent I guess. I think we can eliminate 6 and anything below it from the "weak" definition, as no one would ever not double-up in that situation.

Strong? lucky obviously, 11 obviously, I'd consider 10 strong too. Maybe we say lucky, and 10+ constitutes strong. 8-9 (assuming not unlucky) qualifies as decent or just OK. 7, unlucky and obviously bust as "weak."

Yes, strong rolls and weak rolls CAN both last 6 minutes. But your ratio of strong to weak rolls is absolutely NOT 1:1. If it is, you fail at rolling lol. I haven't kept track of every roll I've ever done by any means, but I'd guarantee you the number of strong rolls I get FAR exceeds the number of weak rolls. Let's assume strictly for argument's sake that your ratio or strong to weak rolls is 5:1. Depending on your definition, that could be an extremely conservative estimate. Even so, if i'm rolling 5 times as many strong rolls as weak rolls, winning streak is working in a positive manner 83% of the time. So the glass is 83% full maybe? :P. There's NO WAY it's half full. Absolutely no way.

And like Carrilei said, what's to keep a 6-minute roller from adjusting? Assume 3-roll cycle of evokers > chaos > cor. Let's say I hit 7 on evokers, which is just ok. Then I roll 10 on chaos and hit lucky on COR. That took me just over 2 minutes. By the time phantom roll comes up again, my chaos still has 4 minutes left on it. I can reroll evokers then if I want. I'd lose chaos sure, but the melees could still keep it for 4 more minutes. The strong roll remains and the cycle is unbroken.

Admittedly at some point, the cycle would catch up to you. Let's say you wait the 4 minutes, then roll chaos and COR again. You'd have to follow immediately with evokers because it would be wearing off. At that point, your desired rolls (assuming you're DDing) aren't on you 83% as you'd like. However, you could simply choose to then overwrite the previous chaos n COR immediately (therefore doing 5 rolls in 5 minutes) and be right back on schedule to keep those rolls on yourself for 4 minutes before needing evokers again.

The argument that fold x4 is necessary and the argument that because both strong and weak rolls stand, that it's a 50/50 proposition is based on the assumption that you are busting or hitting unluckys at an unbelievable rate. It's simply not the case. With just snake eye @ 5 mins and fold @ 15 minutes, if you have use those tools correctly, you can't possibly have bad rolls anywhere nearly as often as good rolls over a long period of time. Maybe you could have one bad/unlucky cycle but over the course of time, your good rolls will vastly outnumber your bad rolls (and that's not counting OK, good or decent rolls).

My main question remains: do you really bust that often? I don't and I don't know many CORs who do.

Edited, May 3rd 2009 3:14am by TDGSW

Edited, May 3rd 2009 3:15am by TDGSW

Edited, May 3rd 2009 3:15am by TDGSW
#36 May 03 2009 at 5:23 AM Rating: Good
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Here's a quick question...

My first merits are going to go towards Snake Eye to unlock it and go from there. So I'll have a long timer for a bit until I get a bunch more.

Anyways, do you guys typically use Snake Eye to roll off a 7+ unlucky or to go from 10-11 more? Or is it just really up to the player?

I lean towards rolling off the luckies, but as my recast gets lower I'll probably do more 10-11. Thoughts?
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#37 May 03 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Anyways, do you guys typically use Snake Eye to roll off a 7+ unlucky or to go from 10-11 more? Or is it just really up to the player?


At a 5 min recast I will use it predominantly to roll of unluckies and occ to roll onto a lucky or XI. Depends on the importance of getting a good number and how many rolls in the rotation I'm doing.

For instance in a Meripo where good numbers on Evokers and Corsairs aren't necessarily that crucial I'll do whatever it takes to get a nice roll on Chaos.

With a 15 min timer, I'd mostly just use snake eye to get off unluckies.

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#38 May 03 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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^


What Dart said. You can choose to do either but I'd agree, if it's only every 15 minutes, I'd roll off unluckys. I typically save it for that anyway but, also like Dart said, if the roll is of critical importance, I have no problems using snake eye to hit a lucky. MNK roll on Salvage bosses is a prime example. I also like MNK/Magus on cerberus-type Nyzul bosses. Magus roll is absolutely critical on certain T10 assaults. The Dverger fight, we had no SMN to nullify its magic def down move, so I did everything I could to give our tank the best magus roll possible. Every other roll was secondary to it.

Unlocking snake eye and fold first is pretty good. I'd do 1 of each immediately then maybe finish snake eye if you plan to and worry about loaded deck, winning streak or subsequent fold merits after.
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