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Magical Atma Findings?Follow

#1 Jan 12 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Pergatory did a really great post on physical atma findings here: Physical Atma I'm currently working on my Atma Wish List and would love some feedback on what atma to get for my Magical Build.

Does anyone have any numbers or suggestions on what you need to create a good build? I've currently got max merits in Wind Blade + one merit in each other avatar special magical attack, though I know a lot of people prefer Shiva for the Atma of the Beyond.

Right now I was looking at Atma of the Beyond (MAB +30, Ice +30, Light +30) and Atma of the Baying Moon (Attack +30, MAB +30) and Minikin Monstrosity (Refresh 10tick, INT +50, ENM -20). Has anyone run this out and tested it? Is INT relevant for our Magical Builds? How does Shiva compare to Garuda damage wise with Atma of the Beyond? How much MAB is needed?

Just any information would be great. I'm still testing this out, so I have no solid information, I was hoping someone else could provide some. :)

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:00pm by SmnVonia

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:01pm by SmnVonia
#2 Jan 12 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't remember, but INT has been proven to raise carby's nuke damage, so any INT is positive. But I doubt it beats MAB.
#3 Jan 12 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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The most important thing is to use balance. I do magic nukes with Garuda a lot. I use Minikin, Ultimate, and Gales. She does from ~3000 (5 merits no additional tp) to ~4000 (140 tp + 5 merits). She also gets a lot of MACC from gales and ultimate. It also does VERY nice numbers for astral flow, should you decide to team up with a BLM and kill ~20 mobs at once.

So really.... Going all out MAB+ atmas isn't the answer, all out +Int isn't the answer, and all out Specific Element isn't the answer either, but to get as high as you can of all three. Beyond just works nicely for shiva since she gets both ice and mab from it.

It says gales is 40 wind bonus damage on wiki, but I haven't actually tested it. I did, however, do the theoretical math the one day of Gales + Minikin + Ultimate and found that it is only slightly lower in damage than Beyond + Ultimate + Minikin.

I'll try to summarize it quick..

Suppose for ease of numbers, after the +int, a base damage of 1000 on a T2 pact.

Avatars have MABIV prior, and I've heard MABV now like blms do. So assuming 36 MAB...

1000 x 1.36 = 1360 normal damage for all T2 pacts at the same tp
With Beyond for Shiva:

1000 x 1.66 x 1.3 = 2158

With beyond and ultimate for Shiva:

1000 x 2.16 x 1.3 = 2808


Now for Garuda...

Gales for Garuda:

1000 x 1.36 x 1.4 = 1904

Gales + Ultimate for Garuda:

1000 x 1.86 x 1.4 = 2604

So there is about a difference (shiva doing roughly 7.8% more) in damage there... But the general notion is kind of there.



Minikin + Ultimate + Element you're using (Major)
#4 Jan 12 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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Minikin + Beyond + Ultimate will give you the best damage numbers for Heavenly Strike and that will hands down be your strongest magical BP and 2 hour. My Heavenly Strike usually does about 4300 damage without additional TP (5 merits) and she almost hits 5k if I let her build up max TP. These numbers will generally be much lower on NM's as most have some form of mdb or -mdt.

Wind Blade is not a bad option as Atma of the Gales is one of the better elemental specific atmas outside of Beyond. It won't do as much damage as Heavenly Strike and ice is generally a better element overall but there are other considerations to be made. Garuda generally has far more utility than Shiva and she can heal herself.

I will run around with Garuda tomorrow and see what kind of numbers she put up.

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#5 Jan 12 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I use both of them depending on what I'm doing, and what the monsters are that I'm fighting. Garuda also TPs the fastest, too. Shiva will be overall the best, that's uncontested, but Garuda with gales isn't that far behind. When MAB gets really high, you gain less and less from it in terms or overall damage as you stack it on. It's just nice to have some more options. You can also use Ramuh if you swap in a thunder atma for beyond/gales, for example. I just don't want anyone thinking 'Heavenly Strike is the only way to go' because really, with the right setup, the others are fairly comparable, too.
#6 Jan 13 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Thank you so much, this is all very helpful. :)

Yeah, I like to have the option to switch the avatars out from time to time. I use Garuda a lot because I like Predator Claws then Hastega, Blink, Fleet Wind, and Whispering Wind in a pinch. So I'd prob just leave merits in Wind Blade for now as I have the -perp staff to hold her out with less cost. Though I've thought about moving them to Shiva for a bit of variety.

Can anyone suggest a reasonable substitute to Atma of the Ultimate? I wasn't on game for several years and someone suggested it might be hard to get this one for a while, so I'm looking for something I could pick up sooner.
#7 Jan 13 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Can anyone suggest a reasonable substitute to Atma of the Ultimate? I wasn't on game for several years and someone suggested it might be hard to get this one for a while, so I'm looking for something I could pick up sooner.


You definitely want minikin and the element of the avatar you're nuking with. For a third atma your best be would be Baying Moon for the time being (especially if using Shiva). I doubt you've done Pandamonium Warden
(since most haven't anyways, including myself) if you don't have ultimate, so I won't suggest that one. If you don't use Shiva, Beyond works just as well as baying moon.

So for example:

Garuda:
Minikin + Gales + Beyond/Baying Moon (both are 30 mab)

Ramuh:
Minikin + Lion + Beyond/Baying Moon

Shiva:
Minikin + Beyond + Baying Moon

Hope this helps!
#8 Jan 13 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Minikin + Beyond + Ultimate will give you the best damage numbers for Heavenly Strike and that will hands down be your strongest magical BP and 2 hour. My Heavenly Strike usually does about 4300 damage without additional TP (5 merits) and she almost hits 5k if I let her build up max TP. These numbers will generally be much lower on NM's as most have some form of mdb or -mdt.


I feel like it hits around 3400 with just Minikin + Beyond. I thought I tested Ultimate as well and it made very little difference, but perhaps it was on a bad choice of mob.
#9 Jan 13 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I feel like it hits around 3400 with just Minikin + Beyond. I thought I tested Ultimate as well and it made very little difference, but perhaps it was on a bad choice of mob.


Adding ultimate to those two will only add 30% overall damage if no mab gear, and 27% if you have 15 mab in gear. It's not as big as 50 seems since you already have 66+ mab with beyond on. But I can tell you gales + ultimate + minikin was doing ~4k on buffalo as 87 summoner with... 13 mab on gear. I don't recall what shiva did... I can maybe play with it later
#10 Jan 15 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I was doing about 2900 on skele NM Kharon with Wind Blade. My merits are maxed, I'm decently geared, but smn skill is still not capped. Used Gales, MM, and Kirin for that one. Should be able to pick up Baying Moon with little conflict. Will test it when I do.

I have one merit in each of the other avatars magic attacks, then the rest in Wind Blade. Not sure how I feel about that yet, may pull them back out of the less used avatars, but I'm not sure if it's going to really make a huge diff. in damage?

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 12:28pm by SmnVonia
#11 Jan 16 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I think as it is now with all those atmas, one in each makes you much stronger overall, than having all in two. Still, I'd be to too afraid to change it since I could end up doing something outside Abyssea and then level 5s are good.
#12 Jan 18 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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I agree, versatility is king for Summoner. I think it's worth having each one unlocked. You don't need two 5/5's, one is enough.
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#13 Jan 27 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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So if I'm reading this right, there is a cap on MAB for avatars, relatively speaking. Should I not be using Ultimate then?

Sitting on the following boosts for gear (Full +2 set)
5 MAB from Soulscourge
1 MAB from Tiresias' cape
10% Boost from Caller's Doublet +2

and yet, when I went from beyond / howling / ultimate to beyond / minikin / ultimate... my damage went up from a steady 3725 to a steady 3845. Should I use Noxious Fang for a third if I want to break 4000? I'm rather confused.

Unrelated: If you trigger Grand Fall in -BP gear and switch to Blood Boon gear before it goes off, does blood boon have a chance to proc / proc the +2 set bonus? I assumed it worked like Conserve MP and casting a spell.
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#14 Jan 27 2011 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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For reference, using Beyond / Ultimate / Minikin with Shiva at 300% TP resulted in a 4978 Heavenly Strike. Is the only way to push that over 5000 with a Day / Set proc, then..?
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#15 Jan 28 2011 at 12:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Charwolf wrote:
For reference, using Beyond / Ultimate / Minikin with Shiva at 300% TP resulted in a 4978 Heavenly Strike. Is the only way to push that over 5000 with a Day / Set proc, then..?


That depends on what other gear you're using. If you have a decent Pet MAB setup for your Smn you can push your Heavenly Strikes higher than that, and in turn, if you have no extra MAB gear (just relying on the three Atmas), you'll have noticeably lower HS's.
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#16 Jan 28 2011 at 12:33 AM Rating: Good
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Gear MAB is calculated separately then? Because it wouldn't make any sense that going from 30 MAB to 50 INT would raise my damage by 100, unless the 30 MAB was having a partial effect that added X damage where X is less than Y added by 50 INT, and therefore adding more MAB onto gear would actually boost the numbers higher. I know I could potentially get another 5 from staff and another 2 from belt, at the cost of Blood Boon... that's a trade-off since proc'ing the full +2 set bonus I imagine is quite a lot compared to a couple hundred damage on a nuke. EDIT: Also forgot Eidolon Pendant, that's another +2 that can be swapped in, for a total of 9. 9 MAB for 8 Blood Boon.

That is, unless the blood boon bonus simply applies MAB to the equation and it does nothing.... someone please show me a Shiva HS'ing for 9-10k? ><



Edited, Jan 27th 2011 10:37pm by Charwolf
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#17 Jan 28 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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Charwolf wrote:
Unrelated: If you trigger Grand Fall in -BP gear and switch to Blood Boon gear before it goes off, does blood boon have a chance to proc / proc the +2 set bonus? I assumed it worked like Conserve MP and casting a spell.

I haven't seen any testing, but if it follows the pattern of everything else in the game then yes it only needs to be equipped when the BP lands; not while it is being readied.

As far as whether the Blood Pact bonus applies as MAB or something different, I can't say since I tend to almost always use physical pacts. However, I've heard from a friend who has lots of +2 pieces also, and she said she's seen 10k Heavenly Strikes so I think it's separate unless she was fighting a qutrub or something.
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#18 Jan 28 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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@Pergatory: Thank you. One less thing to worry about in the crazy maths going on here, much appreciated.
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#19 Jan 31 2011 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So if I'm reading this right, there is a cap on MAB for avatars, relatively speaking. Should I not be using Ultimate then?

Sitting on the following boosts for gear (Full +2 set)
5 MAB from Soulscourge
1 MAB from Tiresias' cape
10% Boost from Caller's Doublet +2

and yet, when I went from beyond / howling / ultimate to beyond / minikin / ultimate... my damage went up from a steady 3725 to a steady 3845. Should I use Noxious Fang for a third if I want to break 4000? I'm rather confused.


There is no cap anyone has found. I am not sure what howling is, as I cannot find an atma with its name in it. However, 50 int being multiplied by a lot of MAB (ultimate, beyond, innate, and gear added together) does a lot more for your damage than you seem to think it does. MAB is not the end all be all for BLM, and such is the same for summoner. When MAB gets really high, and int is low (since avatars don't get +int gear, food, or anything else), adding INT has a much more drastic effect than MAB does.

The highest damage for grand fall should be minikin, ultimate, and noxious fang. There are four things you can toy with that are going to effect your bloodpact damage. MAB, INT, Element specific damage+ (ie noxious fang, beyond, lion, etc), and TP. Day/weather too but that's kind of separate.

Tp, especially at a level 5 bp, is something you probably won't have to play with much. And using an atma slot for Magic BP is a waste anyways.

That leaves you with MAB, INT, and Element specific damage.

Without really going into the math of it all (and since I don't know the exact math anyways) what I can tell you is that you want a great balance of them all. Gearing for just MAB (Ie beyond, ultimate, baying moon) for +110 MAB is going to do less for grand fall than you will get from minikin/ultimate/noxious fang.

Quote:
Gear MAB is calculated separately then? Because it wouldn't make any sense that going from 30 MAB to 50 INT would raise my damage by 100, unless the 30 MAB was having a partial effect that added X damage where X is less than Y added by 50 INT, and therefore adding more MAB onto gear would actually boost the numbers higher. I know I could potentially get another 5 from staff and another 2 from belt, at the cost of Blood Boon... that's a trade-off since proc'ing the full +2 set bonus I imagine is quite a lot compared to a couple hundred damage on a nuke. EDIT: Also forgot Eidolon Pendant, that's another +2 that can be swapped in, for a total of 9. 9 MAB for 8 Blood Boon.


Gear isn't calculated separately. You have to keep in mind, having an innate 36 MAB, +30 from Beyond, +50 from ultimate, +9 from gear... is 125 total MAB. If you added, say another 30 MAB atma onto that, you're only increasing damage by 13.3% (2.55 / 2.25). That's not really much considering it's 30 MAB.

Adding Int onto that though... the int is getting multiplied by the 2.25 Magic attack modifier, and that is why the damage is higher. The higher your MAB gets, the more each point of int adds to your overall damage. The higher your MAB gets, the less each additional point of MAB adds to your overall damage.
#20 Feb 01 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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My thanks for the explanation. :) And yes, by howling, I meant baying moon (the MAB / Att one.)
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