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Physical atma findingsFollow

#1 Dec 13 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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So I've been playing around with atma since I got my third Lunar Abyssite, and wanted to share my findings because some of them are rather surprising. Of course most of you know I'm more on the physical side, so I haven't played with any magical atma yet. Sounds like people are running into a possible MAB cap, so the magic side sounds interesting too, but that will be outside the topic of this thread.

Before I start, keep in mind that I'm specifically talking about Predator Claws as that's what I'm doing my testing with, but I assume most conclusions will apply to the other physical BPs as well. Also, I'll list the various atma that I mention in this article so you know what their stats are:

Razed Ruins: DEX +50, Crit Rate +30%, Crit Damage +30%
Stout Arm: STR +40, Attack +50, R.Attack +50
Sanguine Scythe: HP +Major, Crit Damage +Major, Enmity +Minor
Harvester: STR +40, Double Attack +Minor, Resist Sleep +Major
Dark Depths: AGI +20, Evasion +Minor, Crit Rate +Major



Anyway, the first and most important finding I've discovered is that Crit Rate seems to cap extremely high, my guess is 95% just like accuracy, and that the BP has a native crit rate bonus of at least +30% or so. Up until I got my third abyssite, I had been using mainly Razed Ruins + Stout Arm. This produced fairly widely varying results, I had a pretty even split between 1-2k damage, 2-3k damage, and 3-4k damage. Once I got a third, I added Dark Depths for even more crit rate. Suddenly almost every single Pred Claws was now doing 3-4k range. I'm talking 9/10 of them were over 3k damage, even on NMs (Tunga & Whiro). I believe this was a result of capped crit rate, about 30% from Razed Ruins, another 30% I assume from Dark Depths, and 6% from equipment. This is why I believe BPs have a native crit rate bonus of at least 30% or so.


The second finding is a result of a suggestion Rakshaka had, which was to drop Stout Arm since Kegsay's testing had showed attack was not that useful. Instead, I tried Sanguine Scythe for even more crit damage bonus. So I was now using Razed Ruins + Dark Depths + Sanguine Scythe, full focus on crits. The results were very surprising. My BPs plummeted from consistent 3-4k damage down to frequent 1k or even less. As best I can figure, the only explanation for this is that crit damage bonus also has a cap, and that BPs also have a native crit damage boost that's fairly high. High enough that Razed Ruins alone puts you at the cap, thus Sanguine Scythe wasn't helping. Assuming the cap is +100% damage, BPs probably have a native boost around the +70% mark. (Note for Kegs: This could affect your calculation of M for BPs?)


However, even capped crit damage wasn't enough to explain the immense drop in damage when I switched to Sanguine Scythe. It had to also be that Stout Arm was helping more than I'd realized. Kegsay proved attack was not very effective, so we thought it must've been the STR+40 from Stout Arm that was having such a big effect. So I dropped Sanguine Scythe and swapped over to Harvester which has the same STR boost as Stout Arm, but no attack boost. As soon as I did this, my BP damage shot up into the consistent 3-4k range once again. In fact, I even did a Chaotic Strike on Kharon (skeleton NM in Attohwa) for over 4900 damage. This leads me to believe that STR has a huge effect on physical BPs, primarily due to the native crit rate & crit damage boost that the BPs have.


The one thing I have yet to test is what happens if you stack nothing but STR, but I suspect it would lead to insane spike damage that's very inconsistent. Based on my experience, it seems like there's a hump to get over right around the +70 STR mark which is the most important.



Conclusion:

I'd say this is the priority for physical BPs:
1. Accuracy, duh. Gotta make sure you're landing those hits. Shouldn't require any atma for this.
2. STR. You need to reach that magical point right around +70 where the damage from a good BP jumps by about 1000. With some good furtherance abyssite, you should only need one atma to do this (Stout Arm, Voracious Violet, Harvester, etc).
3. Crit Rate. Need about +60% to cap. Probably will use the last 2 atma for this (e.g. Razed Ruins & Dark Depths).
4. Crit Dmg. Need about +30% to cap. If you don't have Razed Ruins, something like Sanguine Scythe will help.
5. Double Attack & Triple Attack. These are low on the list because additional strikes added to the BP seem more like normal attacks doing only about 100-150 damage each.
5. Attack is last. The only attack boost I've ever seen make a significant difference is that from Sacrifice Torque.

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 10:10am by Pergatory
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#2 Dec 13 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Some great testing here, and thanks. Wasn't it shown though that Furtherance abyssites/cruor buffs don't affect avatars? They don't affect PUP automatons IIRC, so I've always operated under the assumption they don't affect avatars either.

Also, I'm surprised you don't incorporate VV into your testing as a rule. Although the other VV stats are meh, I would think the +10 STR over Stout Arm's ATT+50 would give it the edge if ATT truly doesn't matter much, no?

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 1:39pm by Polltergeist
#3 Dec 13 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Polltergeist wrote:
Also, I'm surprised you don't incorporate VV into your testing as a rule. Although the other VV stats are meh, I would think the +10 STR over Stout Arm's ATT+50 would give it the edge if ATT truly doesn't matter much, no?

It was precisely the fact that the STR bonus is the same between Stout Arm & Harvester that is the reason I chose it. I was trying to determine how much the attack was helping without changing the STR.

As for your question about normal cruor buffs applying, I had no idea. I assumed they carry over. Haven't tried to do any testing, though.
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#4 Dec 13 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Ah ok thanks.

Seems like the most ideal combo then might be VV/RR/DD. The VV/RR combo WAS inconsistent when I was using it up until the December update. DD might be just what is needed to cap crit hit rate and make PC consistent as per your findings.

VV/RR/DD for Phys, Beyond/Ultimate/Minikin for Mag are my go-to choices now. For the phys route, just rely on /RDM, Convert, Ele Siphon, gear, etc.
#5 Dec 13 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Good stuff, this I like to see. Most of this isn't surprising due to Kirschy's testing on BG for players, I presumed they followed through to avatars and your testing hints at this. Kirschy's findings were:

-Critical attack bonus caps at 50%
-Critical hit rate has no meaningful cap, as in 75%+ (same thread)


Quote:
The one thing I have yet to test is what happens if you stack nothing but STR, but I suspect it would lead to insane spike damage that's very inconsistent. Based on my experience, it seems like there's a hump to get over right around the +70 STR mark which is the most important.

I also agree that this should happen (I should probably test this actually). I'm curious about this +70 STR magical point mark, since avatar's have no fSTR cap.

Quote:
As best I can figure, the only explanation for this is that crit damage bonus also has a cap, and that BPs also have a native crit damage boost that's fairly high. High enough that Razed Ruins alone puts you at the cap, thus Sanguine Scythe wasn't helping. Assuming the cap is +100% damage, BPs probably have a native boost around the +70% mark. (Note for Kegs: This could affect your calculation of M for BPs?)

This is curious since it was thought that just as avatars get -50% physical damage taken, they might get some form of direct bonus to physical damage dealt. There was no way of testing this of course until now, so what you're seeing may very well be this innate 'trait' not stacking with Sanguine Scythe. Providing crit damage bonus caps at 50%, and that avatars get 50% natively, SScythe should have no impact at all. If proven to be true, this would require calculations (including PDIF ones) to be multiplied in order to account for this. More thorough testing will be needed to confirm this.
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#6 Dec 13 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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kegsay wrote:
This is curious since it was thought that just as avatars get -50% physical damage taken, they might get some form of direct bonus to physical damage dealt. There was no way of testing this of course until now, so what you're seeing may very well be this innate 'trait' not stacking with Sanguine Scythe. Providing crit damage bonus caps at 50%, and that avatars get 50% natively, SScythe should have no impact at all. If proven to be true, this would require calculations (including PDIF ones) to be multiplied in order to account for this. More thorough testing will be needed to confirm this.

Hmmm... a good test might be for me to use Stout Arm + Dark Depths alone, and see if the numbers I get are comparable to Stout Arm + Razed Ruins. It's possible that the crit damage bonus from Razed Ruins isn't getting us anything because it's already capped like you said! Razed Ruins gives such a huge boost that I'd assumed both crit rate & crit damage were helping, but it's possible it was only ever the crit rate doing anything. This is a possibility I hadn't really considered.

Also, the STR +70 magic number I was talking about assumed that cruor buffs carry over to pets. If they don't, you only need about STR +40.

And yeah Poll, I'd agree that RR/VV/DD is probably the best physical combo right now. One in STR, two in crit rate.

I must admit, I'm kind of disappointed that Sanguine Scythe was such a let-down. I liked the idea of my avatar having more HP and more enmity. Just based on a quick & dirty test yesterday, Lv90 Garuda with Sanguine Scythe had almost exactly 1700 HP (Thunder V from a Rock Murex did 1224 damage and took her to 28%).

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 1:10pm by Pergatory
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#7 Dec 15 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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While it is very interesting with Physical and Magic atma builds, I'd also like to see a discussion about survival combos. Which three atmas would keep an avatar alive the longest? Does absorb atmas stack in effect, or do they overwrite? It would probably help soloing resistant mobs if you could keep your pet alive longer. (But offense is usually the best defense)
#8 Dec 19 2010 at 6:37 AM Rating: Default
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Did some high level testing:

Won't bother going into detail which atmas I used (since I just went for the stats).

STR: Superior
Crit rate: Major

And while I could hit 2.4k on Rani, it was more like every 5th BP at best. Mainly hoovered around 900, making it feel like regular BPs.

I'm pretty sure RR is a must on SMN, which just makes it that much annoying to be missing it.
#9 Dec 20 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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For physical BP its RR all the way without str to back it up you will have a spread still will hit hard. I just can't get away from MM the refresh is just to damn sexy never running out of mp and always having a decent avatar out for my protection is just sexy. I alternate VV and ultimate for my last spot depending on what I am doing and if need all magical add beyond for RR.
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#10 Dec 20 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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So I was playing around with VV/RR/DD the other night when my LS was farming Rani pops (using /RDM of course). We started doing the Iron Giant that is a KI precursor for Rani. And while I mostly got what I was expecting in terms of nicely consistent 3-4k numbers, every once in awhile I got a 6000+ Predator Claws. I think this happened twice during the fight and my eyes goggled. I can only surmise that this meant Predator Claws was critting every single one of the three-fold attack... I have never seen this happen, I was under the impression that it had a certain "max" for crits, but there we go.
#11 Dec 20 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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The iron giant is said to behave in such a way that it occasionally takes more damage. (rotates weakness?) Many have reported occasionally doing quite high numbers and wondering how to reproduce them on the giant.
#12 Dec 20 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Poltergeist27 wrote:
So I was playing around with VV/RR/DD the other night when my LS was farming Rani pops (using /RDM of course). We started doing the Iron Giant that is a KI precursor for Rani. And while I mostly got what I was expecting in terms of nicely consistent 3-4k numbers, every once in awhile I got a 6000+ Predator Claws. I think this happened twice during the fight and my eyes goggled. I can only surmise that this meant Predator Claws was critting every single one of the three-fold attack... I have never seen this happen, I was under the impression that it had a certain "max" for crits, but there we go.


Elaborating more on what Mellowy said, the Ironclad Smiter, after certain TP moves, will start taking considerably more damage for a certain period of time before going back to normal. It won't for all of its TP moves, but certain ones like Turbine Cyclone will trigger this weakness. Just estimating from the the numbers I remember seeing a ninja doing to him, I'd venture to say that during those time frames, it'll take between 2-3x as much damage as it would normally. As such, you'd be looking at your normal Predator Claws doing anywhere from 2-3k on it, which fits the general range one would expect.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 1:28pm by Vlorsutes
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#13 Dec 20 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Default
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I Use RR SA and MM fo soloing. Since VV is only good for str while SA backs up the Str with ATT. I can land 3-4k on nms. Conistantly. I was thinking for maxed dmg SA RR and C&D would be best to make sure pred claws lands all 3. Have yet to get C&D though to test it and I wouldnt reccomend the combo solo though as you take a hugh hit in mp.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 10:08pm by Fumikuu
#14 Dec 21 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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VV does allow dropping some nice magical nukes my avatar just traveling building tp is <3 so I am ready to nuke, cure or dd in a pinch plus vv adds Double attack its quite nice.
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#15 Dec 21 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Fumikuu wrote:
I was thinking for maxed dmg SA RR and C&D would be best to make sure pred claws lands all 3.

C&D should be overkill for Pred Claws. Between the massive amounts of summoning skill & avatar accuracy you can get through gear/merits, and the DEX+50 from Razed Ruins, you should have capped accuracy. If not, get out and skill up that summoning!

P.S. I was rocking Garuda on mandies in Tahrongi the other day, working on Garuda staff trial, and wanted to post my results. It was my first time doing triple atma (RR+DD+VV) on normal non-NMs for any consistent length of time. I was pretty surprised. Had two do 5200, one 5006, one 4999. Times sure have changed when I see a 2k Pred Claws and the only word that comes to mind is "fail." Pretty soon they gonna stop inviting me to Abyssea on SMN because I kill stuff too fast, I've basically been relegated to back-up tank in Abyssea. I stand there with Garuda looking pretty until a tank goes down and the NM starts chasing the mages around, then I Pred Claws and let Garuda tank until the DD's get back up. Then once they finally proc weaknesses and are ready to kill it, it's at like 40% and I manage to land one more Pred Claws before they kill it.
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#16 Dec 22 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Hah, I have the exact same back-up tank role on SMN in my LS Perg. Sometimes I end up sitting around as the melee are usually busy proccing and don't want me to do a thing because I do too much damage. On normal non-NM exp mobs, what I like doing lately to build lights is "pulling" with Heavenly Strike. I will go find a fresh mob, press the BP right off the bat, and run away. Shiva goes to town, and the mob is dragged back to camp with only 15-25% of its HP left (or sometimes 1-shotted >< ) . BLM's and ele WS ppl proceed to get azure/amber.
#17 Dec 23 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Another update, according to the DRK forums Dark Depths has been confirmed to give +20% crit rate, not +30%. This means it's equal to Gnarled Horn, and Gnarled Horn's other stats seem better. So I think I'll be changing my main setup to:
Razed Ruins + Voracious Violet + Gnarled Horn
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#18 Dec 23 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Same here then. I played /RDM last night in Abyssea without Refresh atma and never even missed Minikin. 5 MP/tic idle Refresh with gear + the spell Refresh meant I could go full-on DD. I never even had to Convert. Siphon took care of the shortages.
#19 Jan 12 2011 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Pergatory, thanks so much for starting this thread! :D Thank you guys for the input as well.

Physical Build. Since I've got fewer play options, due to LS restrictions, I'm looking at VV, RR, and Gnarled Horn for a physical build. According to Wiki, Gnarled Horn atma gives 30% Crit Hit Rate. That should put me at the 60% needed. I don't have any salvage done, so I guess DD would be a pain in comparison.
#20 Jan 12 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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SmnVonia wrote:
Pergatory, thanks so much for starting this thread! :D Thank you guys for the input as well.

Physical Build. Since I've got fewer play options, due to LS restrictions, I'm looking at VV, RR, and Gnarled Horn for a physical build. According to Wiki, Gnarled Horn atma gives 30% Crit Hit Rate. That should put me at the 60% needed. I don't have any salvage done, so I guess DD would be a pain in comparison.


GH should be 20% Crit rate if im not mistaken.
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#21 Jan 13 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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SmnVonia wrote:
Pergatory, thanks so much for starting this thread! :D Thank you guys for the input as well.

Physical Build. Since I've got fewer play options, due to LS restrictions, I'm looking at VV, RR, and Gnarled Horn for a physical build. According to Wiki, Gnarled Horn atma gives 30% Crit Hit Rate. That should put me at the 60% needed. I don't have any salvage done, so I guess DD would be a pain in comparison.

Actually, VV + RR + GH is my preferred combo right now. Dark Depths & Gnarled Horn are both +20% crit rate, and GH's secondary stats are better than DD's.
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