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#1 Sep 15 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Now that we broke the lvl 80 limit, which subs is best suited for SMN? /sch or /rdm?
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#2 Sep 15 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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/RDM, Sublimation isn't as effective when you have access to Convert and Refresh.
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#3 Sep 15 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I posted this about a month ago. Although the cap was 80 and we didn't have Refresh, it's still relavent. Comparing SCH and RDM is a little more than comparing Sublimation and Convert+Refresh. Doesn't necessarily mean SCH wins, but you need to take into consideration more than just MP regen tools.

As a side note, SCH let's us use Desert Boots now.

jlejeune wrote:
Ignoring what they have in common, /SCH offers -na spells, Erase, Regen II, Reraise, Drain, Aspir, Sleeps, Strategems (Accension/Manifestation are amazing), Sublimation, and B+ skills mostly for Sleeps, Drains, and Aspirs. /RDM offers Barspells (single target only with half skill), Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx, and the crowning jewel of Convert.

Convert, to me, isn't worth giving up everything /SCH can offer, especially since /SCH offers it's own MP recovery tools. We can Ward for Blink and Stoneskin, so those are purely for convenience, and Noctoshield is marginally more potent than a half level Phalanx, even with merits. Earthen Ward's duration is signficantly longer than Stoneskin, and while you can potentially cap SS at 350, Earthen Ward is always static no matter gear (and AoE). We can Ward for -Na spells too (Spring Water), but since Ward is on a universal timer, having the -na spell from sub is more efficient.

Of course, this is all subject to change at 82 when we'll have access to Refresh, but I'd still be hard pressed to give up all the tools /SCH offers for what amounts to Convert and Refresh. I'm admittedly biased against Convert on SMN. On RDM, I almost have a 1:1 convert ratio for HP:MP naturally, so I don't have a lot of +HP gear. This doesn't translate so well into SMN. I'm a Taru. :(

Now as far as skills are concerned. Phalanx, at 118 skill, will only reduce damage by 9 points. 8 merits would only bring that up to 11. Noctoshield will hover around 13 points. Stoneskin fairs slightly better, but at 118 enhancing, you'd need 141 total MND to cap it, 136 total MND with 8 merits. Earthen Ward will do 210 (80*2+50) consistently. Enfeebling (and elemental I guess) is a crapshoot since you're loosing well over half your skill of a main and all the magic accuracy it includes. This goes the same for Ninjustu, too. /SCH offers the work around of B+ing your skill so you can actually sleep things! 8 merits will never change anything in enhancing or enfeebling (or ninjutsu but that's outside the realm of SMN so I don't care what you do).

Dispel is, fortunately, naturally accurate, so a half level enfeebling skill doesn't matter. Both /SCH and /RDM offer it.

I stopped using /WHM when /SCH offered most of the same tools. Boils down to offering Viruna, Stona, Divine Seal, and Barspellras. I only bring out /WHM if I knew I'd be using Viruna and Stona a lot, for specific mobs.

[...]

SCH to me isn't so much about comparing Convert to Sublimation as it is have a variety of tools while still keeping some MP recovery ones. Convert is obviously the best MP recovery JA, but at the cost of versatility SCH provides. Fortunately, we can replicate a lot of it with BPs. Unfortunately, that ties up our timers even more. It's a give and take, and you'll find a preference. Mine is (obviously) /SCH at the moment.
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#4 Sep 15 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I think /whm, /sch and /rdm has it's uses...I use /whm for when I going to an area that where I'll need a quick tele back out and about, /rdm for less down time on doing my trials in safe areas (lack or RR spell makes me nervous tho) and /sch for the drain, aspir, the storm spells to reduce avatar perp by 3 (so far can do this with titan at lv85 when I'm using my Summoners horn). But when I finished my staff trials for the relevant avatars i use the most I will be using /rdm less and going back to /sch full time like before. Mainly cause I trust sublimation over convert. Nothing worse than wasting your mp to get yer hp out of the AoE danger zone
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#5 Sep 15 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Refresh makes your avatars cheaper and that alone makes /rdm the winner. I havent had to rely on sub job spells or abilities for a long time in any situation. even less so since abyssea. Mp recovery is a non issue nowadays so what ever sub you use i think should directly benifit your main. Refresh is the only spell in game i can think of that does that.
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#6 Sep 15 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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I honestly don't see myself using much of anything except /RDM anymore on SMN. There would have to be a specific need for a spell in /WHM or /SCH **** to cause me to use that sub. Which, don't get me wrong, it's totally feasible and I'm sure there will be situations that call for it. In most cases, Convert is just too powerful, especially for an Elvaan like myself. When I went from 80-85 in Abyssea, I did it in one single party and for the life of me could not spend all my MP while being proactive about MP recovery (keeping Refresh up, using Siphon every time it was up, using temp items whenever possible, etc.). I never even came close to running out of MP, and I was spamming BPs like a madman. I would do a Ward, then get out Garuda and do a Pred Claws, leaving her out to tank until the mob died or the rare circumstance where someone actually pulled hate off her (Garuda's a beast at 85!) only to release her, do another Ward, then get Garuda right back out again for another Pred Claws. This kind of non-stop activity used to drain my MP dry in a matter of about 5-10 minutes, but I did it for hours in Abyssea with no atma and not a lot in the way of temp items. It was quite an experience. I'm not sure if I like Summoner this way or not, but it's definitely powerful.

Also as a side note, if there is no Refresh II available, then SMN makes a great refresher. Our main job consumes only about 10 seconds of our activity every 45-60 seconds. I found that it didn't slow me down one bit to keep Refresh up on myself and the BLM80 in my party who couldn't cast it on himself yet.
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#7 Sep 16 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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You always feel naked without -na spells and grounded without teleports. But many jobs do fine without it, so you just have to get used to it.
#8 Sep 16 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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This question is not quite as clear cut as anyone would like. I've sworn by /SCH since it was available. What's not to like about Aspir, Drain, Sublimation, -na spells, and now Sandstorm (can't go wrong with a cheaper Titan while wearing AF2 Horn)? I do, however, see a lot of value in /RDM now that Refresh is available. There is a lot to like about being able to instantly restore MP every 10 minutes, have cheaper avatars at will, and being able to bring out our avatars more quickly.

If I had to come to a conclusion, I'd say /RDM is an excellent substitute for /SCH when there isn't much to Aspir or when nothing can be Drained.
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#9 Sep 20 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Outside of Abyssea, been using /RDM because Convert and Refresh is just too much to pass up in terms of MP recovery.

Inside Abyssea, if you have the ability to infuse two Atma, 10 mp/tic Refresh on top of the 2 mp you get from YY Robe/native ensures free avatars with plenty of regeneration between Blood Pacts. Add Elemental Siphon into the mix and you literally forget Convert b/c you won't really ever need to unless fighting zone boss like Glavoid. Finding /SCH or /WHM more useful to sub in Abyssea.
#10 Sep 29 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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i concur.

outside of Abyssea, /rdm seems like the best bet. Refresh is wonderful, convert is spiffy and you still get stoneskin/blink/aquaveil...
Sublimation will never quite match up to Refresh imo because of its tiresome HP tradeoff thing and sadly even at 99 /SCH will never see thunderstorm/voidstorm/aurorastorm to take advantage of weather -perp... If you're using something else very specific tho, this might actually be useful. Or if you're healing.

in Abyssea, you have the luxury of infusing atmas that give refresh, at which point perp/mp is no longer an issue at all. 2 refresh:minor refresh (10mp/tic) and siphon is more than enough even if you're spamming merit BPs turn after turn and works very nicely.. but if you don't have 2 atma, then RDM will once again be the most useful...

Even if you have 2 atma, you should probably consider /RDM as you won't always need that much refreshing power, at which point you'll consider getting atma buffs for your avatar. I'm personally extremely partial to atma of the lion cos it makes it so easy for Ramuh to do consistent 2k dmg Thunderstorms..

Another atma most of us would probably want to get is Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity, which gives Refresh:major (10mp/tic), freeing up your 2nd atma slot but not compromising on refresh at all.

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#11 Nov 30 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I can see the merits of having all three jobs available. I've only got /WHM and /RDM right now but I'm slowly getting /SCH levelled (for SMN, and for Sleep Nuking on PUP).

For me the main advantage of RDM is for zerg fights. If I'm starting off with Alexander and I don't have it them I'm usually just stuck /heal for the rest of the fight. With /RDM I can take advantage of Perfect Defence making it incredibly difficult to kill me after convert and continue supporting the party and DD'ing the mob. This works in reverse too; if I'm low MP and I'm needed for Alex a convert gets me that crucial extra duration.

WHM is my preference for healing, having access to Cure IV, Erase, barspells, and the -na spells lets me really help out the healers in my group. I'll go this sub when I'm not playing a major role or when were low on healers (or have unskilled healers).

SCH is a great compromise between the two but if you have the other two options its more of a bonus than a requirement. I've been levelling all three jobs in their own time in the order WHM > RDM > SCH owing to the order in which I feel they benefit others.
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#12 Dec 01 2010 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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More jobs will be able to learn the following spells:
- White Magic
Protect V PLD Lv.90
Aquaveil SCH Lv.13
Blink SCH Lv.29
Stoneskin SCH Lv.44
Shell V RDM Lv.87 / SCH Lv.90

- Black Magic
Fire IV RDM Lv.86
Blizzard IV RDM Lv.89
Fire III DRK Lv.88
Blaze Spikes SCH Lv.30
Ice Spikes SCH Lv.50
Shock Spikes SCH Lv.70
Aero V SCH Lv.87 (Addendum: Black)
Break RDM Lv.87 / SCH Lv.90 (Addendum: Black)

From next update .... beside of mp recover... /sch become more useful with light arts blink stoneskin...
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