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#52 Oct 15 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Well if that's true then it must've been Atma of the Baying Moon. I've done plenty of merit pacts with Minikin infused and seen nothing like that.

Edited, Oct 15th 2010 2:57pm by Pergatory
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#53 Oct 16 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
Well if that's true then it must've been Atma of the Baying Moon. I've done plenty of merit pacts with Minikin infused and seen nothing like that.

Edited, Oct 15th 2010 2:57pm by Pergatory


I believe you are right and my gut tells me that the crit effect is tied to the moon phase. I did a party earlier this morning and I only got 1 crit in a few hours. Yesterday I got more than a handful in a couple of hours when the moon was waxing.
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#54 Oct 18 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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So I finally got a chance to combine Stout Arm + Razed Ruins for some testing. First thing I have to say is that I did not miss Minikin at all. Between Refresh, Siphon, and HP/MP cruor buffs, I used Convert maybe three or four times in a 4-hour run.

Anyway, as for the results... I was astounded. We were in Abyssea Vunkerl farming seals. The main NMs we fought were Gnawtooth Gary, Seps, Pascerpot, Armillaria, and Iku-Turso (all pop NMs). I used Predator Claws the whole afternoon for a nice baseline. What I found was that Pred Claws low-range damage was in the 2000-2800s, and high-range damage was in the 3300-3800s. Yes you read that correctly: 3500+ damage against NMs using Pred Claws. These were not rare either, not like the high-range you're used to seeing on Pred Claws. About one out of three was over the 3000 damage range. I only saw one or two in the 1000-1800 range, I think both were against Gary and it may have been due to Garuda being blinded by Dust Cloud, and three duds (two of which were caused by Seps' AOE Flash move).

I think I'll be doing Stout Arm + Razed Ruins together from now on for SMN, unless I'm trying to solo and really need that Minikin, or have a really good reason to use magic BPs. If there's a regular opportunity to release & Siphon, and especially if Converting is safe, then Minikin isn't really needed.
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#55 Oct 18 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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ignore, I didn't see page 2.

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 4:30pm by Ahrana
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#56 Oct 18 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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got 2nd lunar abyssite and I was toying around with Minikin/Beyond setup... I was able to leave my Shiva out fulltime, and was doing 1.5-3.5k per Heavenly Strike. The 3.5k was on a mesa wivre in koschtat, and I was avg'ing 2.1k on Kukulkan. On Turul, I was only doing about 1.4k compared to the ~900dmg Predator Claws..


I think I like magic build still more than melee build :\
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#57 Oct 19 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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SakkaofValefor wrote:
I think I like magic build still more than melee build :\

That's cuz you need better melee atma :) Sounds like you're doing pretty good damage though, and I'm sure it's all situational. If you can average over 2k, it shouldn't be too far from the damage I'm doing with Pred Claws, but I think it's worth having both options available. I can't wait to get some nice MAB atma for stuff where magic damage is better, but I think I'll continue using the physical ones most of the time just because I've always preferred physical over magical on SMN.

Did Braireus yesterday and with an alliance of 18 I probably did 30% of the total damage. Every single Pred Claws pulled hate until Garuda died, anywhere from 1.7k damage up to 3k (on a zone boss!). I did Ovni as well, and every single one did over 3k to him. Knocked off 6% per BP. Carabosse is the only NM so far that I haven't been able to break the 3k mark on... she was taking 900-1800's. She's a tough cookie. According to wiki, she has -50% on both physical & magical damage taken, so I don't think merit pacts would work any better on her really.
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#58 Oct 20 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
SakkaofValefor wrote:
I think I like magic build still more than melee build :\

That's cuz you need better melee atma :) Sounds like you're doing pretty good damage though, and I'm sure it's all situational. If you can average over 2k, it shouldn't be too far from the damage I'm doing with Pred Claws, but I think it's worth having both options available. I can't wait to get some nice MAB atma for stuff where magic damage is better, but I think I'll continue using the physical ones most of the time just because I've always preferred physical over magical on SMN.

Did Braireus yesterday and with an alliance of 18 I probably did 30% of the total damage. Every single Pred Claws pulled hate until Garuda died, anywhere from 1.7k damage up to 3k (on a zone boss!). I did Ovni as well, and every single one did over 3k to him. Knocked off 6% per BP. Carabosse is the only NM so far that I haven't been able to break the 3k mark on... she was taking 900-1800's. She's a tough cookie. According to wiki, she has -50% on both physical & magical damage taken, so I don't think merit pacts would work any better on her really.



Hmm, if you were using a 5/5 Heavenly Strike with Atma of the Beyond and Atma of the Baying Moon, I don't know if you'd necessarily be saying that :) But you are right in that it is going to be situational. I fought Briareus and Carabosse this morning and magical pacts were a definite no-no. HS isn't going to do less than 2k for me on anything unless it has a native -MDT trait or is resistant to ice. You can hit 3k damage on it, but Predator Claws can surpass that on crits. Merit pacts are easier to deal with during kited fights, but Garuda can save that TP to heal herself. It's just really situational.

Full disclosure: Shiva has always been my favorite summon in FF games, so I admit my bias :) There are some other interesting magic atma combos out there for the other avatars as well. It's nice to have as much in your ******* as possible to adapt to what you are fighting.

Question for you though. With the RR Atma, have you noticed the DEX boost improving Garuda's accuracy at all?
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#59 Oct 21 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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Sasaraixx wrote:
Hmm, if you were using a 5/5 Heavenly Strike with Atma of the Beyond and Atma of the Baying Moon, I don't know if you'd necessarily be saying that :)

You're probably right

Sasaraixx wrote:
Question for you though. With the RR Atma, have you noticed the DEX boost improving Garuda's accuracy at all?

Yes, significantly. She very rarely misses her melee swings now. It's worth noting that Pred Claws accuracy for me has always been very high to begin with, so I didn't notice any accuracy improvement there. If there was one, it was overshadowed by the difference made by the crit modifiers. It's the critical aspect of Pred Claws that makes it so wildly varying, not the fact that she's missing swings. When you see a 300 damage Pred Claws, it could be that all 3 hits landed but none of them were crit. After seeing how effective Razed Ruins is, I'm actually debating switching from my Atk+15 Redingote to my Summoner's Doublet for Pred Claws.
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#60 Oct 21 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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I think I read somewhere on BG that crit+% is not as noticeable as straight up DEX/ATK/Whatever with the razed ruins atma.
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#61 Oct 21 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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SakkaofValefor wrote:
I think I read somewhere on BG that crit+% is not as noticeable as straight up DEX/ATK/Whatever with the razed ruins atma.

In my experience, and that of the DDs in my LS, the crit+% is the most noticeable part of Razed Ruins by far. I don't know how much of the crit rate increase was from DEX compared to how much was from the actual crit rate +%, but I used it on DRK the other day and was literally doing a crit about every third swing on DRK/SAM. I have 4 crit merits but normally my crit rate is closer to the 10% mark (never actually parsed it, just a gut feel). I peg the crit rate bonus to be somewhere around the +20~25% mark. The way I see it, the improvement in crit rate is THE reason to use Razed Ruins. DEX & Crit Dmg Bonus are just gravy.
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#62 Oct 21 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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I mean crit%+ on gear isn't as noticeable as, say, DEX/STR/ATK/Whatever when using razed ruins
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#63 Oct 22 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Oh I see what you meant, yeah that makes sense I guess for DDs. They don't all use crit WS, in which case the crit+% would only affect their melee attacks. Even those that do use crit WS, crits probably don't have as big of an impact as they do on Pred Claws. For Pred Claws specifically though, I think the crit+% is by far the most important benefit from Razed Ruins, as well as any crit+% you can get anywhere else. However, for the same reasons that BG said it's not that big of a deal, it probably isn't as important for other BPs like Spinning Dive which aren't critical damage.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 11:27am by Pergatory
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#64 Oct 22 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty sure NONE of the BPs actually say critical damage. So levi might be critting just as much as garuda, except you have 3 times as many chances on garuda to effect damage.
#65 Oct 22 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
All of the physical bloodpacts are capable of dealing critical damage even though they don't say it in the description for the bloodpact. That's why before the Royal Redingote came out, Summoner's Doublet was a great piece to throw in for the bloodpacts damage wise.
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#66 Oct 23 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
When you see a 300 damage Pred Claws, it could be that all 3 hits landed but none of them were crit. After seeing how effective Razed Ruins is, I'm actually debating switching from my Atk+15 Redingote to my Summoner's Doublet for Pred Claws.


I think the biggest case for this, the 300 damage, is that the first hit missed and 1-2 of the other hits landed. Keg's testing (seen here) had suggested that the first hit of the multi hit 70 bloodpacts is the strongest, and that the subsequent hits are weaker (but do also add to damage of course, especially in critical hits). Any physical bloodpact can critical though. I've seen it many times with tail whip and double slap in the lower levels...where they do ~50-100% more damage than they have been doing (like tail whip going from ~180-200 to the random 350). I've seen it with spinning dive on imps also (where at 75 I would use either garuda or levi on them.)

Quote:
Oh I see what you meant, yeah that makes sense I guess for DDs. They don't all use crit WS, in which case the crit+% would only affect their melee attacks. Even those that do use crit WS, crits probably don't have as big of an impact as they do on Pred Claws. For Pred Claws specifically though, I think the crit+% is by far the most important benefit from Razed Ruins, as well as any crit+% you can get anywhere else. However, for the same reasons that BG said it's not that big of a deal, it probably isn't as important for other BPs like Spinning Dive which aren't critical damage.


It's a little more complicated with avatar's over melees, too (which I'm quite sure you know). It's not like we can throw vulcan rings, triumph earrings, sea gorgets, ares' body, and cuch mantles on them or anything...or even critical hit merits. So really with the limited amount of gear we have that even affects our bloodpacts, atmas are like the biggest impact we can have on our avatars. The other thing that comes into my head now though is the Atma of the Azure sky. I heard someone say it's -10 second bloodpact timer and goes past the -15 cap (so -25, though I don't have it so I cannot verify). In that case, you'd have to wonder what's going to win out in the long run, though. Atma of the beyond + azure sky (mab+30 ice+30 bp timer-10) or atma of the beyond + baying moon (mab+60 ice+30). Bloodpacting ~28% more often if you ride the timer for less damage, or bloodpacting with a little more MAB. I -think- atma of beyond and azure sky would win over baying moon and beyond -slightly-, but I'd really have to do some math there...


Quote:
All of the physical bloodpacts are capable of dealing critical damage even though they don't say it in the description for the bloodpact. That's why before the Royal Redingote came out, Summoner's Doublet was a great piece to throw in for the bloodpacts damage wise.


I definitely agree with the doublet, I use it for all my physical bps and wish I had the +1 relic (I only have +1 gloves). On my Redingote I took -2 perp and 7mab/matt with magic merits and 5/5 wind/heavenly for keeping out a free garuda to build tp at 75 and wind blade on higher defense stuff... Now abyssea changes things a bit... but I'll likely just keep my redingote as is until the AF3 body comes out. If it has some nice -perp on it (since I never got around to trying to synth a penance robe with my leather) I'll definitely redo my redingote.
#67 Oct 24 2010 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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Just finished the Atma of Beyond/Atma of Baying Moon combo tonight.

Shiva, 5/5 Heavenly Strike, 5/5 M. Attack merits, Royal Redingote with +7 MAB, Caller's Sash, etc.,

3230 dmg on a Plateau Hare. Yeah, a bunny, but it's almost 4AM and I'm sleepy. Popped the Brooder very quickly and did a 2074 Strike before I high-tailed it out of there because I didn't have the alertness to solo it.

More testing to come.
#74 Oct 24 2010 at 5:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lucky 7 post I see.



I'm a bit split on attack still for avatars. I was using the attack:superior Baying Moon and can't say I saw ANY improvement in BP damage on +2 NMs. I was doing about 600-900 damage predator claws. With lucky hits of 1500.

I'd almost dare say the STR bonus is what effects the damage with atmas. Which would be consistent with how merits and crimson howl and gear never seem to make that much a difference in the attack department.

It would be interesting to try and mix two STR atmas for physical BPs, but I doubt it would ever beat the crit rate atma.
#75 Oct 24 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'd almost dare say the STR bonus is what effects the damage with atmas. Which would be consistent with how merits and crimson howl and gear never seem to make that much a difference in the attack department.


I most definitely agree that the STR bonus is going to make a big difference in the damage, especially since there is such a huge multiplier. I think the big thing to consider here, though, is that avatars cap out around 4.0 pdif, whereas a lot of players cap out much lower (ie 2.0 pdif for one handed weapons). Thus, it takes a **** of a lot more attack to cap out your pdiff on summoner than it does on a melee job, and you have access to FAR less options than a melee job does. As you are well aware, the highest damage of bloodpacts is on squishier stuff where you have a capped or closer to capped pdif, and the same can be seen with their basic melee hits too.

Thinking about it.... +15 attack on royal redingote, +15 attack from merits, +50 attack from stout arm (potentially +70 if they also gain 20 attack from 40 str, but we are unsure of that) is +80 attack. Can add in things like karura hachigane if garuda, and the relic feet add a bit of attack (keg testing showing that it's really not that much unfortunately). Also, the fay crozier or better yet, the fire magian staff with pet attack on it. Crimson howl is a little limited compared to things like beserk, minuet, etc, being less than 9% of a boost. Crimson howl boosts 400 attack by just under 36, and berserk by 100 respectively.

But considering 80 attack... a melee, if their attack is high enough, gets 85 attack from using a yellow curry bun alone (in a party of 4 or more...) and a little bit of strength. Add in to that things like Amemet mantle/Foragers, Jewelry with attack (like aesir ear), ammo like bomb core/fire bomblet, etc and they have a LOT more attack that they can strap on. Also add into it chaos roll, and minuet... because no one is probably going to use Beast Roll for our avatar. The amount of attack that they can strap on is enormous compared to the limited resources summoner has.

Also... I have yet to confirm if cruor buffs work on pets yet. I'll have to run in as 37 pup and get buffs, and see if they add to my automaton as well. If they add to my precious Koumei, I'm sure they will add to my precious Shiva and Garuda as well. But if they don't work on pets, that's another attack bonus that melee will have over our avatars...

But yeah... I think all three of the factors work to increase the damage a lot. I think STR pushes the potential damage way higher (obvious), critical hits from razed ruin not only have a greater impact because critical hits are enhanced further, critical hits serve to increase pdif. Attack will greatly increase the damage by raising pdif.

But considering that two decent +str atmas (eve and briareus) likely DOUBLE the base strength of the avatar, that's pretty huge.

Upping the critical hit rate by a huge amount, and increased the damage done, is going to boost up pdif a lot.

Giving an Avatar +150 attack, which you can't even get that much from atmas (and would need some gear), isn't even going to double the attack that they have when compared to strength. Going strictly for attack will yield the poorest results because you aren't getting the most "bang for your buck" persay.

So yeah... you have it right. STR and critical hit are the best you can likely use physical bloodpacts. I don't think though that the problem with attack is that it doesn't do too much. I think the problem is that we just don't have enough access to it for it to truly be as successful as it is for melee jobs. I would love to see pet that we eat be used by our pets, similar to atma, but the problem there imo lies in balance. Giving an avatar a big attack boost probably wouldn't be game breaking, but giving it to beastmaster or puppetmaster may be, considering they as the master have much more use than we do for something like yellow curry.

And as a side note... I've always enjoyed your summoner passion, Mellowy
#76 Oct 24 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Been trying the Razed Ruins/Stout Arm combo and have been getting results similar to Pergatory. 1780, 3039, 3621 on Poroggo Dom Juan (yeah, lolnm but I was helping my THF friend get the squid for the Karkinos Nusku Sash NM). I use the SMN Doublet +1 macro swap for Pred Claws, along with AF2+1 feet, Sacrifice Torque, Karura Hachigane, AF leg, etc. The optimal phys setup has a huge damage variance, whereas the Baying Moon/Beyond Atma combo for Heavenly Strike is much more consistently 2000-3000 dmg. It will really just depend on my mood on the day and what we are fighting. I didn't try using Heavenly Strike on Poroggo because they have high INT and are magic resistant.

On Turul, Razed Ruins/Stout Arm-infused Pred Claws got 2720 as a high. I was taking off 4-5% of its HP every 45 seconds.

In any event, moral of the story, SMN is a beast in Abyssea with Razed Ruins/Stout Arm for phys and Beyond/Baying Moon for magic BP. I don't even miss Minikin Refresh anymore with /RDM and Convert.

I'm a few missions away from finishing the Azure Sky Atma but will post findings after that.

Edited, Oct 24th 2010 3:32pm by Polltergeist

Edited, Oct 24th 2010 3:38pm by Polltergeist

Edited, Oct 24th 2010 3:46pm by Polltergeist

Edited, Oct 24th 2010 3:48pm by Polltergeist
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