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No perpetuation cost when the avatar is doing nothing?Follow

#1 Dec 21 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Is there a reason for avatars still having a perpetuation cost even when they're doing nothing?

Will it be game-breaking if the perpetuation cost is removed and the Summoner is allowed to rest when the avatar is not attacking?
#2 Dec 21 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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MardokFFXI wrote:
Is there a reason for avatars still having a perpetuation cost even when they're doing nothing?

Will it be game-breaking if the perpetuation cost is removed and the Summoner is allowed to rest when the avatar is not attacking?


Your controlling one of the greatest powers ever, and you want to be able to "rest" while doing it? SE is very much into the small things, and this has been one of the points of contention for a long time. At 75, there is now enough gear to get a regular avatar out full time with no perp costs, you just have to work at getting the gear.
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#3 Dec 21 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Yea, all sane people think it should be removed. Just a shame there are no sane people working at SE.

It is EXACTLY as game breaking as allowing a BLM to rest while they have slept a mob. EXACTLY. And still people insist on posting about how game breaking it.

These forums would be much better if people learned the correct way of comparing apples and oranges.

Edit: Btw, while on the EXACTLY topic, resting with an idle avatar serves only one purpose, and that is to store TP. That means it is also EXACTLY as overpowered as having signet on to rest and keep TP. Well, less overpowered since you don't get defense bonus etc.

Edited, Dec 21st 2009 5:41pm by Mellowy
#4 Dec 21 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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the thing about smn though, that people need to remeber, is SMN are very good in large numbers. being able to rest while your avatar is out would let you keep it summoned forever, with the ability to use BP at will.

the only thing that would be able to stop a SMN alliance from completely raping just about anything would be if the mob could 1 shot every avatar at the same time.

ive personally done an 18 SMN alliance on the 4 lesser sky gods. they got raped. hard. no ones MP was completly empty, but if the fight had gone on for a few more minutes we would have been fighting our MP bars instead. imagine if you could never run out of that MP. now THAT is overpowered.

if anyone is interested party setup was:

(SMN/sch x5 SMN/brd x1) x3 = 18 SMN alliance
#5 Dec 21 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
the thing about smn though, that people need to remeber, is SMN are very good in large numbers. being able to rest while your avatar is out would let you keep it summoned forever, with the ability to use BP at will.


You mean like BST, PUP etc?

#6 Dec 21 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Squintik wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
the thing about smn though, that people need to remeber, is SMN are very good in large numbers. being able to rest while your avatar is out would let you keep it summoned forever, with the ability to use BP at will.


You mean like BST, PUP etc?



like that, except SMN can immediatly re-summon their pets to be ready for battle. BST and PUP can't do this, unless BST has charmable mobs around so they need to wait for their timers.

i'm not saying BST and PUP can't do what a SMN can do, but if all timers are down it won't be pretty. it's basically the equivalent of all the SMN running out of MP.
#7 Dec 21 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem with balance is that you can always find a way to break it.

Rotate 2 soul voiced BRDs for a zerg? Well, if killing mobs with 10 000 HP in 30 seconds isn't unbalanced, I don't know what is.

Aegis PLDs hardly taking damage from VT mobs? Sounds a bit unbalanced, even if not everyone can have an Aegis.

BLMs solo puddings for like 8k an hour sounds pretty overpowered to me, since I can't kill them like that on SMN.

A single SMN astral flowing 3 times to kill a promyvion boss sounds a bit overpowered also. Better nerf the job instead of improve it, right?



At the end of the day I think what matters most is what you can do in most situations. If I can't 18 SMN every single event I run to, why should it decide what I can and can't do? The balancing point should be how good your job is in an average party setup of 6 different jobs. Today I think a few jobs are really lacking at that.
#8 Dec 22 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
the thing about smn though, that people need to remeber, is SMN are very good in large numbers. being able to rest while your avatar is out would let you keep it summoned forever, with the ability to use BP at will.


I'm not asking for SE to let Summoners rest while their avatars are out, I'm asking them to let the Summoner rest while the avatar is doing nothing.


Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 2:45pm by MardokFFXI

Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 2:46pm by MardokFFXI
#9 Dec 23 2009 at 2:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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"BLMs solo puddings for like 8k an hour sounds pretty overpowered to me, since I can't kill them like that on SMN. "

You clearly never tried imps on smn.
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#10 Dec 23 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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RhadamantisRagnarok wrote:
"BLMs solo puddings for like 8k an hour sounds pretty overpowered to me, since I can't kill them like that on SMN. "

You clearly never tried imps on smn.


This is lolmellowy, they probably tried, but when they couldn't weaponskill, they QQ'd and went home.
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#11 Dec 23 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Default
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I think you are missing the point (as usual around these parts of the forums). It is not about if you can get 8k exp IN SOME WAY, it is that you can't do it THE SAME WAY as someone else. Overpowered is of course usually used to describe that someone does something someone else can't, even if the overall situation may not be better.

Imps however is an excellent example for the thread. While it is one of our best solo exp incomes, it is entirely uneffected by the ability to rest with an avatar out (and not engaged).

As for my personal experience. I don't find the risks worth the reward with imp solo. I'm always stalked by bad luck and usually get a near death situation within 5 imps. Besides solo is probably the thing I'm least interested in FFXI.
#12 Dec 23 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mellowy wrote:
I think you are missing the point (as usual around these parts of the forums). It is not about if you can get 8k exp IN SOME WAY, it is that you can't do it THE SAME WAY as someone else. Overpowered is of course usually used to describe that someone does something someone else can't, even if the overall situation may not be better.

Imps however is an excellent example for the thread. While it is one of our best solo exp incomes, it is entirely uneffected by the ability to rest with an avatar out (and not engaged).

As for my personal experience. I don't find the risks worth the reward with imp solo. I'm always stalked by bad luck and usually get a near death situation within 5 imps. Besides solo is probably the thing I'm least interested in FFXI.


So my monk is overpowered because it can kill some NMs that my SMN can't, or my pld is overpowered because it can reduce damage better than my SMN can? Each job is meant to do things differently, just like BLM Can't solo imps like SMN, we can't manaburn off of puddings like BLM.

If your wanting to use that base, every job other than WHM in this game is severely overpowered.
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#13 Dec 24 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see how resting with an avatar out is the same as a BLM resting with a slept mob. The way I always saw it was the avatar didn't want to be there and was resisting. And the SMN was using it's MP and "concentration" to keep the avatar in check.

Secondly, say they get rid of perpetuation cost; what happens to all that -perp gear? It'd become completely useless unless they changed it. And I'm scared of the idea of that much auto-refresh gear for SMN. You'd be main healing for the rest of your life.
#14 Dec 24 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Then the simple solution is to give SMN a "Silence" debuff while Avatars are out.

Then reduce Ward pact timer to 20 seconds to get support up to par.

To penalize the Summon-Pact-Release behavior, greatly increase the cost of summoning an avatar but greatly decrease the cost of pacts to compensate.

Give a twenty second JA which allows avatars to be switched up for free so that you still have the versatility of Ward pacts without suffering the penalty of high Summoning costs. As a balance mechanic, the next avatar has their HP reduced to the HP of your current avatar.

Edited, Dec 25th 2009 12:50am by taishokukanoki
#15 Dec 25 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Default
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Toioiz wrote:
If your wanting to use that base, every job other than WHM in this game is severely overpowered.


Exactly. Speaking about how something is overpowered in a limited situation is nothing but silly. People insist on bringing up extreme cases like it were something that were happening constantly. As we all know DRKs with 2 hours and krakens are not exactly weak, but only fools bring it up as an argument against changing the DRK job in any way.

As I see it the only time a job possibly could be called overpowered, is when it is the main choice for the majority of the game. Which actually means the list of overpowered jobs are RDM, WHM, BRD, WAR, PLD, SAM, BLM more or less.

But again, it is a moot point arguing about what is overpowering and what isn't. Much better to discuss what makes the none-overpowered sessions of the game more fair. In this case not losing MP and able to rest with an idle avatar.

Quote:
I don't see how resting with an avatar out is the same as a BLM resting with a slept mob. The way I always saw it was the avatar didn't want to be there and was resisting. And the SMN was using it's MP and "concentration" to keep the avatar in check.


That would be from a story perspective. Do also note that from a story perspective summoning Fenrir kills you, as well as he can fend off 5+ King Behemoths on its own.

The comparison to BLM btw is about result and effect. In reality a BLM sleeping a mob and then resting is MORE unbalanced than a SMN resting with their avatar NOT engaged.

Quote:
Secondly, say they get rid of perpetuation cost; what happens to all that -perp gear? It'd become completely useless unless they changed it. And I'm scared of the idea of that much auto-refresh gear for SMN. You'd be main healing for the rest of your life.


That is quite off topic since there is no discussion about removing perpetuation during battle, only when not fighting.

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