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Fenrir Accuracy & Favour PenaltiesFollow

#1 Nov 18 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fenrir is different from the other avatars. As you know already, he attacks quicker (280 delay vs 320 delay) and deals more damage on melee hits. What are the beast's stats? Hopefully, I intend to shed some light on it.

Accuracy Testing

Allow me to draw you to an earlier test where I tested Shiva's Melee accuracy vs Greater Colibri:

Both tests were done without any Enhances Avatar Accuracy gear, or Favour.

 
Melee Damage  
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%  
Shiva                  5885   29.81 %     141/76   64.98 %     30/49    38.86     10     64/95   79.40    7.09 % 


Now allow me to show you Fenrir's parse:

 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Fenrir                10425  100.00 %     194/76   71.85 %     39/69    50.65     14    82/106   93.43    7.22 % 


As you can see, Fenrir hits harder. A lot harder. Not only that, but his accuracy is higher as well. During testing, the number seemed to hover around 71.50%, giving Fenrir approximately 6.5% more hit rate, or +13 accuracy. This gives Fenrir a total of ~320 Accuracy.

With that sorted, there will be two questions to answer.

1 - How much accuracy does Fenrir's Crown grant?
2 - How much is accuracy (melee hits) penalised by Avatar's Favour?

Fenrir's Crown and nothing else
 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Fenrir                10400  100.00 %     192/78   71.11 %     39/69    50.99     14    78/107   94.57    7.29 % 


This is disappointing. It seems the crown doesn't work on melee hits, only BP hits.

With Favour and nothing else
 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Fenrir                 8012  100.00 %     169/78   68.42 %     33/57    42.41     21     67/99   82.62   12.43 % 


This is also disappointing. Not only does the amount of damage from melee hits show a reduction, but there also appears to be a small accuracy penalty involved with Avatar's Favour. A larger sample would be needed in order to identify just what the penalty is, though from this it looks to be around a 3% reduction or 6 accuracy penalty, this would probably go to 5 if a larger sample was taken.

Note:
May it also be known that the critical hit rate with favour on went up by 5%. I cannot explain this. The other tests had a 7% critical hit rate which was spot on (5% base (this is the low cap, indicating Fenrir has less DEX than Greater Colibri's AGI)), +2% from ACP Body).



Conclusions

- Fenrir has more accuracy and more base DMG than the other avatars, possessing an accuracy (at Lv75) of around 320.
- Fenrir's Crown only works on Blood Pacts.
- Avatar's Favour imposes a small (around 5-6) accuracy penalty as well as a reduction in damage from normal melee hits (the same as the reduction in BP damage).



Edited, Nov 18th 2009 4:50pm by kegsay
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#2 Nov 18 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Hilarious. SE never stops amazing us with their awesome "BP only" enchantments. At least this means I won't need to bother with crown. Just got to get the shiva boots (assuming they are better than 5 skill).


I don't see how much higher the accuracy was during BPs though. But since I recall you tested us out to be like 85-90% on BP accuracy I don't think it will make that much of a difference.
#3 Nov 18 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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Fenrir's Favor is rather situational, and completely useless a good portion of the time, so I'm not sure why this is a huge factor. If you wanna leave Fenrir out for a while to wail on **** just disable the Favor. It's already cheaper perp than other non-Carby avatars anyway.

If you still want/need to make it cheaper though, the favor is there as an option, and (apparently) Fenrir will still outparse the other avatars even with the favor on.
#4 Nov 18 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
Hilarious. SE never stops amazing us with their awesome "BP only" enchantments. At least this means I won't need to bother with crown. Just got to get the shiva boots (assuming they are better than 5 skill).


I don't see how much higher the accuracy was during BPs though. But since I recall you tested us out to be like 85-90% on BP accuracy I don't think it will make that much of a difference.


Hey, what are you **** for, huh? You wanted an update, remember? Well this is new armor, that makes it an update, right? Huh? Huh? Huh?

I'm in ur thread, trollin' Mellowy
#5 Nov 18 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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Good stuff kegsay.

Can you do an analysis of Karura Hachigane's Attk/Def bonus?
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#6 Nov 19 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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RajiFarlander wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Hilarious. SE never stops amazing us with their awesome "BP only" enchantments. At least this means I won't need to bother with crown. Just got to get the shiva boots (assuming they are better than 5 skill).


I don't see how much higher the accuracy was during BPs though. But since I recall you tested us out to be like 85-90% on BP accuracy I don't think it will make that much of a difference.


Hey, what are you **** for, huh? You wanted an update, remember? Well this is new armor, that makes it an update, right? Huh? Huh? Huh?

I'm in ur thread, trollin' Mellowy


Too bad you forgot that update is not a synonym for improvement, it is a synonym for addition. (Actually I bet it is a synonym for improvement, just not in SE's language)
#7 Nov 19 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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As cool as it is to see this information, and further, to see someone passionate about SMN and taking the time to do actual testing... it occurs to me that 250 swings is not a very big sample size. In fact I think this gives a margin of +/- 6% which is a pretty big margin when you're trying to measure accuracy differences that are likely in the 2-3% range. 1,000 hits would bring you down to +/- 3% which is closer. Sadly if you want to measure accuracy to within +/- 1%, you need 10,000 data points per test case. I think this has been the main reason not a lot of testing has been done previously.

Edited, Nov 19th 2009 8:46am by Pergatory
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#8 Nov 27 2009 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder if the accuracy bonus further improves the multi-hit proc of Eclipse Bite even for a well geared SMN with a lot of +smn skill gear already (assuming a 95% acc cap which can be reached with relic hands/af feet and +22 skill over cap). If it does, it may be worth it.
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#9 Nov 29 2009 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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How much XP was gained on each colibri killed? The variation on favor versus non favor could be a result of just level variation.
#10 Nov 30 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Miraun wrote:
How much XP was gained on each colibri killed? The variation on favor versus non favor could be a result of just level variation.


I don't know why this got rated down, it's a valid point. Before lvl corretion, lvl 81s have 334 eva and lvl 82s have 339 (a difference of 5, and the OP saw 6) After lvl correction its a difference of 9, still very close to the OPs 6 that he saw.

Btw, do avatars take lvl correction into account? If they do fenny should be closer to 350-359 total acc.
#11 Dec 01 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, Pergatory already highlighted some of the other problems in this testing. Not just the potential for level correction, where a single mob could throw off the sample, but additionally, the sample size is too low to draw conclusive evidence to support a crit rate or acc difference based upon Favor. If you take a look at BG's testing for crit rates, you can better see the types of sample sizes they're using to determine the correlation between dex and crit, where they don't take sample sizes of melee swings under 10k. Furthermore, days/weather values need to be explicitly accomodated for to assure that there is no correlation or impact of day/weather values on ACC/Crit/ATT.


The testing is good, but it's not enough to be conclusive.

Please don't misunderstand, I appreciate your testing, and want you to keep at it. However, these tests are still inconclusive.
#12Xilfarth, Posted: Jan 05 2010 at 4:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well first off, this is SHIVA vs Fenrir (who's using his crown) it's already a flawed test.
#13 Jan 06 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Xilfarth wrote:
Well first off, this is SHIVA vs Fenrir (who's using his crown) it's already a flawed test.


Quote:
Accuracy Testing

Allow me to draw you to an earlier test where I tested Shiva's Melee accuracy vs Greater Colibri:

Both tests were done without any Enhances Avatar Accuracy gear, or Favour.


Kegsay specifically said that the tests to determine Fenrir's accuracy over any of the Celestial Avatars were done without any gear enhancing accuracy whatsoever. This is Shiva and Fenrir on equal grounds as far as what boosts the Summoner gives them.

Edited, Jan 6th 2010 1:25pm by Vlorsutes
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#14 Jan 12 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Gotta be hard to test this stuff. Much appreciated. Been lookin forward to someones take on Fenrir crown. I'm no tester, but just from using the crown, I agree with you and share in your dissapointment.
#15 Jan 12 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Not entirely sure as i dont follow smn stuffs much. But doesnt fenrir do piercing damage? Or is that only the BPs? If so, this is on birds which accounts for a "much higher base damage."

Also, just reenforcing that the sample is to small to state any of this as fact as the margin of error is larger than the differences, and WAAAY to small to think about criticals and this is before we account for the possible different bird levels that might have been sampled.

If you want to double check base damage, lv 1 mobs are better targets. it is possible that fenrir has more "melee skill" than shiva which would just give him more acc and atk combined with (i think) piercing damage which would show similar results but not have a difference in base damage.

Great work though. I look forward to more info unravveling the mysteries of FFXI. (Also reminds me to get back to my Evisceration crit test on the thf boards i havent touched in a few months xD)
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#16 Jan 12 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Regardless of their attack animation (biting, striking, swinging, etc), all avatar melee damage is considered blunt damage for their normal swings (only their bloodpacts have varying damage types), so there wouldn't be any damage bonus or penalty skewing the test results.

Edited, Jan 13th 2010 12:38am by Vlorsutes
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#17 Jan 19 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Default
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My point about Shiva vs. Fenrir was that Shiva has horrible melee accuracy as well as BP accuracy. It's like Ray Charles vs. George Foreman. My apologies if Fenrir wasn't using his crown. But crown or no, he's more accurate. That and he's easy on the -perp is why most SMNs that I know solo/farm with him moreso than others. Any SMN that's been playing for years can tell you this so it doesn't make sense to use her. A better comparison would have been Leviathan's melee vs Fenrir's.

Edited, Jan 20th 2010 12:28am by Xilfarth
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