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Hate and KitingFollow

#1 Nov 18 2009 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
330 posts
Hello summoners,
Copying a post I made in the rdm forums. I am not a smn myself and know precious little about smn game mechanics, but I think I've seen it mentioned in some posts here that there are people with complete knowledge of this sort of thing, so if you can shed any light on this or point me in the direction of a post that helps that would be much appreciated.
Last night was the first time I kited anything real, and I have a few questions about hate that I figured people in this forum could answer. Me and a smn friend duod Kotan-kor Kamuy, although really it was me 98% soloing and him 98% eating delicious grauberg dirt. The basic plan: we kited to witchfire, then i ran a circle around the lake, crossed the river, Kotan went yellow in the river, I reapplied a buff and nuked or re-biod, ran a loop on that side, crossed again, repeat ad nauseum. This worked fine, so we figured he could BP, run across the river, let avatar die, lose hate when it chased him. That failed hard the first time, so I figured the game mechanics wouldn't let him lose hate until Kotan caught up to him after avatar death. Next time, he BPd, let avatar die, then ran across the river. Kotan still didn't stop in the river. My friend thought it might be a distance thing, since I was using crimson, but there were plenty of times when i was ~8yards or whatever ahead of him (ie within melee range) and he still went yellow in the river. Well, we decided maybe smn are just wonky clowns, but at 35% a blm friend joined us to speed it up and same thing - no matter how far he was when crossing the river, Kotan wouldn't go yellow. In conclusion, I have no idea wtf was going on, as it went yellow on me every single time. Any info would be appreciated, as we'd like to find a way for the smn to not be useless when we try again (0/1 on the drop).
#2 Nov 18 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
1,181 posts
Losing a monster over water is usually due to tracking by scent. Make your SMN cast Deodorise before the avatar dies and they'll be fine.

a blm friend joined us to speed it up and same thing - no matter how far he was when crossing the river, Kotan wouldn't go yellow.

Anyone without movement speed bonus has a tougher time of getting rid of a monster than someone who does. For monsters who track by scent, this can be the difference between losing aggro and not. An example if you please:

Without movement speed bonus:
MOB  .  .   .   .  .  .   .   .    .   .  Player 

The .'s here are used to represent your "scent". No matter how far you run, your scent trail will always make the monsters path true.

With movement speed bonus:
MOB  .  .   .   .  .  .   .   .    .   .  Player 
MOB       .  .   .   .  .  .   .   .    .   .  Player 
MOB            .  .   .   .  .  .   .   .    .   .  Player 
MOB                  .  .   .   .  .  .   .   .    .   .  Player 
MOB                       .  .   .   .  .  .   .   .    .   .  Player 

With the speed bonus, you gradually escape your trail, causing the monster to deaggro.
Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005
#3 Nov 18 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
330 posts
Good call on deodorize, didn't even think to have him cast it.
Regarding the scent trail, that doesn't seem to be the mechanic here. The reason I say that is, I could be 30 yards from Kotan, and he would still beeline for me until he hit the water, so it's not that I am outrunning the trail, just that once he hits the water he loses it. The same thing would happen if he was right on my tail when I crossed the river. I'll try it tomorrow with a normal hippo when the smn logs on though to be sure. Thanks for the info.
#4 Nov 18 2009 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
4,196 posts
I'm afraid losing hate over water is one of those things I've never put much faith in, so I don't know the exact mechanics of it. In my experience, it has never been something you can depend on 100%, and the fact that you were able to reproduce it consistently is pretty surprising to me. Perhaps it has something to do with the length of time between performing an action and crossing the river? Perhaps the enmity from doing something needs to drop below a certain point before it'll lose your trail in the river? Just a possible suggestion for something to try next time this happens, try performing the action farther from the river to let enmity drop lower before crossing. Good luck and let us know if you figure it out.
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#5 Nov 18 2009 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
330 posts
Oh, that is a good point. With me kiting a circle, it had always been quite a while between performing any action and crossing the river. Thanks for the idea, I'll test with normal hippos later. I definitely was able to lose hate crossing the river 100% of the time, even got to the point where I would cross, get just a few feet over and automatically start casting because I knew I was safe.
#6 Nov 18 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
183 posts
I don't think it's a scent issue at all.

That particular NM is a Hippogryph, which means its a sight-based mob. I can't find anything in the wiki to suggest Hippogryphs track by scent, so I'll assume for now that they don't. According to the wiki description for that NM:

Wiki wrote:
When taken to the Fay Spring, if you kite him through the middle lake, and are out of his line of vision, he will deaggro, regen and start to walk back to the Hippogryphs.

That suggests to me that the reason the NM is going yellow while you're kiting him across the river is because either the terrain is breaking line of sight, or the distance you are from the mob is outside of the NM's sight range.

Something you could have your SMN friend try is to Assault their avatar onto the NM from an angle that keeps the NM facing away from the river while the SMN runs across it. Also, have the SMN run out of sight range (a good indication of sight range is the outer ring on your radar).

It sounds to me that the reason the NM is going yellow so easily for you is that its hate is restricted to line of sight - if you break line of sight, it kicks you completely off its hate list.
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