So, do we still suck?Follow

I'm seeing a lot of testing going on for the avatar favors but I can't figure out whether or not the response is very positive.

How satisfied are Summoners with the favor update?

My account isn't activated right now, so I can't test it for myself... but if this update makes us really useful and adds a new element to the job, I'd resubscribe in an instant. I'd really love it if I could play my Summoner more often - I feel like I levelled it for nothing, though I really like the job and controlling my avatars.

Kind of surprised they didn't add a new avatar just as "icing on the cake" (as another poster said) to their big SMN update, but it's all good.

Anyway, all updates are appreciated - but how huge is this one?
Are we finally going to be wanted/needed in more endgame situations?
From the looks of it, it seems more like it's meant to help SMNs in EXP 10~75...

Opinions?!

Edited, Nov 10th 2009 8:44pm by Poubelle

*Won't really help get merit PT invites over BRD/COR/RDM.

*Won't add extra damage from HNM (unless you want to use SMN for extra MAB for BLMs, or double attack for melee, but why would you give up a slot for effectively one cor roll when you can just get a cor and get 4? (since damage is gimped))

*Won't help soloing, except for possibly easier to get free Avatars.

*Would help for minor events e.g. Dynamis,Limbus,Nyzul where SMN plays semi DD, semi support roles.

tl;dr No, Favor's are limited to pretty much be party-only beneficial effects, and since one "roll" is worse than two rolls, I can't see people wanting SMN for merits, which limits the main purpose I think SE had in mind.

Nice addition, but it doesn't chance pretty much anything.

I'm not sure what it's like at 55, but at 75, once Diabolos's Favor is at full potency (3MP for me, unfortunately), Diabolos is free with Pluto's Staff, Evoker's Ring, Yinyang Robe, Nashira Gages, and Evoker's Pigaches +1.

The update helped, but it didn't take us our of our tier of where we are in the game. We're on that very line to where this update could of helped so much.

This update was suppose to make it so SMN's can summon, keep avatars out and pt buff the party. As a result we're weakened in damage, but we're increasing party damage.

This update did one good thing and made it so Favors help the party. Double attack on a group of melee's? With DoT, lower level BP damage and the occasional TP pact or 70, adding in we can toss out some helping cures is great.

The bad part is we can't do it ourselves. Our "focus" is flexability, and we should be able to do it on our own not with the help of a refresher.

So it comes down to, if you have a well geared SMN, a refresher and an open slot for an endgame event..why not?

This update was a start, we just need a few more -perpet to make our job worth taking up. They have a second chance at not screwing us over with the mid-november update. Let's hope the evolith system will put in avatar perpet cost - on items that we normally couldn't put things in before...earrings? waist? legs? neck? mid level perpet - in these slots would help the smn job out a lot and give S.E. what they were aiming for.

The power is there, the ability to maintain isn't at least not until the 70's and with a refresher.

Technically COR has that title, with Evoker's Roll, XI, with a SMN in the PT. Ours however is a lot easier to not only get, but maintain too.

Endgame, I can't see it changing much. CORs can give Evoker's and a more potent form of our Dream Shroud via Wizard's Roll, and can then either do a small amount of damage or curing, or drop party and give another PT two more rolls.

SMNs would only be able to do the Evoker's, along with minor damage or curing.

I am not very knowledgable on COR, but how high can a COR get the refresh? I thought it's highest was 4/tick. Does COR sub BRD in that instance where it acts a refresher?

I only remember having a COR in my BLM party once, and I do not really pay attention to someone else's performance, unless I happen to notice it (or the lack of it).

Does BRD as a sub job with ballad even stack with the SMN's favor?

That is so true, I started it in 2004, and always worried about how I was judged. My SMN never gets merit party invites, and will not now.

And honestly, since I gave up putting up my flag as SMN, I will not start it now. But SMN are being underestimated, not over, in my opinion. I can heal just fine, and since I'd be using Carbuncle, would also not get hate as a result of it.

I think people simply refuse to work with a SMN. My own LS leader told me in his own words that he would not take a SMN over a RDM, ever. So, it is just the mindset of the people that make us SMNs so sad. And emotionally empty inside....

The more SMNs become 'outcasts,' the more I will play it.

I'd say that the people saying Favors don't change anything are simply referring to "SMN's situation." That is, the rate at which we get invited to parties or get asked to go to some events.

However, simply speaking of the SMN job itself, I'd say that the update changed quite a bit. It adds whole new ways to play the job. I'm loving it so far, and I'm still missing a few key pieces of gear to take full advantage of it.

I think SMN's would have to show what they can do now before the situation changes for them. And I don't see that happening soon, or even ever. It's similar to the whole lolzpup thing.

Well, avatars can still attack? I have not yet heard much if mages still got the Diabolos' favor while it is assaulting a mob. Same thing with Carbuncle. Minimum damage, I am aware, however it is better than nothing. While a continuous Regen may not sound impressive, it is continuous, and automatically AoE, and SMN/SCH could just manually cast his own Regen II spells, and still Cure III.

Either way, this was not meant to counter argue or anything like that, but like you said, what we can do now is definately better than what we were able to do before. I won't say that we became Gods or anything, although I wish, Summoners would deserve to be Gods with all the crap they had to go through just to get to be what they are at 75.

Yeah, pretty much. XD

When looking to fill a space, leaders rarely look to fill half of several roles at once with one member, and the other half of said roles with another; it's simply easier to grab (for example) one dedicated tank, one dedicated healer, one dedicated support, and a few dedicated DDs, everyone knows what they must do and they'll each (ideally) preform those few actions well.

Meh, SMN still, and will, always be one of the most beautiful jobs of the game. And with them idle buffs, will make OTHER jobs be even better. Well, if you get my drift.

BRD can cast Paeon, and can spot heal, but SMN has an *automatic and continuous* (aura) Regen II, can spot heal, and have Carbuncle heal ontop of that. And do damage. Every 50 seconds. DON'T LAUGH!!

COR can refresh, but SMN gets an *automatic and continuous* (aura) Refresh, can buff, and do damage. Every 50 seconds. Don't laugh now! I mean it!! And SMN can spot heal ontop of that.

No job can provide a double attack bonus. Is that right? Point is, we are Summoners, not strict support classes like BRD and COR.

Someone said, we were not meant to be the best at everything, but we are definately GOOD! And... So beautiful.

Just curious, the augment list posted on BG contains things that can be done with the evolith/synergy system, on it is avatar perpet -1. Do you think it will be possible we might see those evolith's to put on some gear to maybe help with the gap?

I mean this is a two part update, mid-november is still a week or two away. A evolith of perpet-1 to something simple as a ruby earring with a few more pet boosts since i'm sure there's 3 slots or so avaible..would make for a decent piece...and it would really fill in that gap that the favors didn't fully put in.

Let's just share my experience last night - when I headed to Port Jeuno for limbus after being on SMN (which is rare) since I was doing those different damage types NMs in Romave for Shantotto... I'm actually really still quite upset about it now.

Stood around waiting for jobs to be called - expecting to be told to get on COR or RNG or something... get put in BLM party for Diabolos refresh. Go to limbus and BLMs are sleep-nuking... so can't really do much in the way of damage without being timed incredibly carefully, can't release avatar cos it was like mass taru-moan-ga III if I did because it turned their mp crack off - so I just had to stand there, keep hitting dream shroud, throw out a cure... and not move, with Diabolos superglued to my backside. Oh and keep a finger over retreat macro in case the avatar went after a mob the BLMs were trying to sleep. The one time that happened I got lines of "stupid effing Diabolos" - only not with the fluffy version of effing.

I have never been so bored in all my time in-game. It even beat BRD in the BLM party in dynamis for boredom. To top it all off - when I mentioned I was bored I got told (only half jokingly) "you're just a BRD now - deal with it." Can't change avatars for variety because that's like shoving a drug addict into cold turkey for the time it takes to cast, do something, resummmon and favour to rebuild - no more Earthern Ward, Aerial Armour, Predator Claws... not even any more lil blue squirrel (although I was tempted to stand with him out and regen 'em all out of ring latents).

I'd like to thank SE wholeheartedly for ruining a job that, while I didn't get to play it much, I enjoyed. Almost chucked my AF2 and YYR away last night I was so cross - and now SMN is a job I'm no longer prepared to play for anything other than solo/mass SMNer activities. Full props to SE for achieving what I thought was impossible - making a fun job now more boring to play than HNM BRD in the black mage party. If I'm going to get the "come SMN to stand by the BLMs and be bored" - I'll say no and take the risk of a broken linkshell.

Now I fully appreciate that at least part of this is the LS I'm in and the dynamics of who was on that night, and the fact that people were being wise asses to show off for the amusement of others in a joking way - but it's exactly what I saw happening when they announced the favours and it is, sadly, what the job's likely to become relegated to. There's invites and being used for stuff - but at what price? I think that what happened last night was more than a price I'm prepared to pay.

The job didn't suck - but now it does.

So, the moral of the story is...for all you SMNs wishing you could buff as well as BRD/COR so you could take a spot from them in a party...looks like you got your wish. Is it really worth it?

I want to ask something to all the SMNs here. Let's say we became totally specialized in one role (since our versatility kills party invites). For the easiest example, let's say Refresh(ga) whore. And let's say we ramp up Diabolos's Refresh to say...6 mp/tic when fully charged? There we go, single biggest source of Refresh from one job in the game, putting RDM, BRD, and COR out of business in terms of providing Refresh. Let's say this suddenly got us all the party invites in the world (exp/merits/endgame). Would you be glad because you finally get a chance to use your SMN for SOMETHING, or would be upset like this poor person I quoted because you'd be heading into the realm of RDM/BRD boredom?

Also, out of all the roles SMN can fulfill, which one would you choose to specialize in if you had the chance? As said before, our versatility is cool and all, but it kills our party invites because our talents are so spread out we're not overly good at anything as a result.

Not a SMN myself well its 30, but for T4 ZNM I was really glad of Shiva's Favor it seemed very noticeable and the SMN was still doing decent damage with Shiva.

My BLM love aside I do however think that of all the ways to steer SMN in the right direction for the purpose of getting in exp pt's this wasnt the best way to go. Not that i'm saying SMN endgame should be changed just something to make it more exp friendly without burning in the tunnel and having 30 Summoning Skill at 75 >.>

I don't know how much smn skill of 30 gives you but I do know the "fun" of manually skilling up the smn magic skill! Get a lawn chair and sit outside bastok..and watch the day go by!

That's why I feel a little confused whenever players on this forum talk about wanting new avatars. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need new avatars - we need SE to fix/tweak the ones we have. There are so many bloodpacts I don't use because they're either useless or extremely situational, or simply because I feel compelled to use a "safer" or more reliable BP given the time and MP constraints. I think SE needs to focus more on improving what we have before adding anything else.

I agree wholeheartedly, especially because SE's "new avatar(s)" would be considered a fix, and would likely cause us to ignore all previous avatars as well as having their own problems, as well.

The end result would just be a different kind (i.e., updated) of partially-broken job, which isn't a solution at all, but rather tosses a newer problem on top of an older one.

Frankly, I cannot understand how Summoner ever made it to release back in 2004 (?) - it's only magic skill was essentially useless, its merit spells were negligible, it had no gear that enhanced the Avatars, and it could only do one action per minute, what the heck, SE? After years of updates more than doubling the power of the job, it still suffers from its initial design failures, and is only beginning to come into its own, though even so remains bested, as others have also pointed out, by a Corsair.

Maybe one day they'll figure out what most serious Summoners who post on these boards already know and have experienced.

maybe...