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#27 Oct 21 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Requim wrote:


Shiva, Leviathan, and Diabolos look like they have pretty solid buffs, my only concern is if you need to be in proximity to the avatar then the avatars are the only ones going to be receiving the buff (since mages are generally not nearby).


Well, 2 of those 3 avatars best moves are ranged attacks (Heavenly Strike and Nether Blast). Putting aside whatever the negative effect of this JA may be, you could theoretically leave Shiva and Diabolos summoned but not engaged on the mob. The mages can receive the favor and you can launch your attakcs from a distance.
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#28 Oct 21 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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looks cool but i expect some kind of downside. weakened avatars sounds very possible, be it weakened pacts or something similar.

maybe skill related, maybe a set % skill loss on pacts, could affect the accuraccy of offensive pacts or the duration of wards with the ja active,

would kinda make sense, your avatars would be a bit weaker as a loss of skill would be a loss of accuracy on rage pacts and also kill the duration of various ward pacts. even something small like a 10% loss in skill could see you needing to find and stack over 60 to keep hastega capped with the ja up.

but either way just a theory.

edit:- also like someone above said it wont make smn as desirable as cor/brd. it never will. since favors are linked to the avatar you're restricted to 1 at a time, so gonna be impossible to have like a refresh favor on your mages and a double attack favour on your melee. but stacking it with existing wards may work well, keeping the party hasted with garuda while being able to keep your pld and blus refreshed for example. aside from the loss of potency everytime you swap avatars to put a ward up,

all that said though it's still something i imagine i'm going to have a lot of fun playing around with :) just waiting to see how it all works out.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 11:18am by Dzian
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#29 Oct 21 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Admiral Jinte wrote:
Quote:
The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.

Carbuncle's favor = Regen (11 Dancer's Roll: 14 hp/tick / 17 hp/tick (w/o dnc / w/ dnc))
Ifrit's favor = improved "Double Attack" rate (11 Fighter's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o war / w/ war))
Shiva's Favor = enhanced magic attack (11 Wizard's Roll: +12/+16 (w/o blm / w/ blm))
Garuda's favor = enhanced evasion (11 Ninja Roll: +50/+65 (w/o nin / w/ nin))
Titan's favor = enhanced defense (Best Guess, 11 Chaos Roll, applied to defense: +31%/+41% (w/o def job/ w/ def job))
Ramuh's favor = improved critical hit rate (11 Rogue's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o thf / w/ thf))
Leviathan's favor = enhanced magic accuracy (11 Warlock's Roll: No Numbers Available that I know of)
Fenrir's favor = enhanced magic evasion (Best Guess, 11 Warlock's Roll applied to Magic evasion: See above comment about Warlock's Roll)
Diabolos' favor = Refresh (11 Evoker's Roll: 4 mp/tick / 5 mp/tick (w/o smn / w/ smn))

XI is not the lucky number for COR. It gives the most powerful buff, but it is not the lucky number. Each roll has its own lucky number. Chaos Roll, for example, has IV as its lucky number. So all of the buffs you stated are more powerful than what I think you should be expecting.


Yup, XI is the perfect number for COR not Lucky Number... .. Hooray for SMNs..
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#30 Oct 21 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Rostofff wrote:
I can see summoners fitting nicely into a BLM party with this though.
Diabolos out for refresh.. AND dream shroud, and nether blast, depending on enemy.


Actually, I thought a SMN would be a nice addition to a BLM pt in dynamis. Not only for the reasons you mentioned, but for Nightmare as well.
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#31 Oct 21 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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SylphiaOnFairyServer wrote:
This update makes me very happy. I'm just a little sad that they didn't call it Junction, though.

You're an old Alla Smn poster if you get that.


Heh, hi again Sylphia. Yes, I remember, it was a year ago next month ^^
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#32 Oct 21 2009 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Holy ****, what the heck is Mellowy going to complain about now?
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#33 Oct 21 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Rostofff wrote:
hmmmm i wonder if these effects will affect the avatars themselves..
double attack etc..
or Shiva using her own magic attk+ for heavenly strike


Considering Corsair rolls and Bard songs, S-E usually specifies when a buff effects pets. "Pets" for the purposes of COR rolls include avatars, automatons, summoned and charmed beast pets, and DRG's wyverns. BRD songs don't effect pets.

When pets are effected, it seems that they are directly specified by a "pet buff". COR has Drachen Roll for Pet MAB/M.Acc, but Warlock's/Wizard's Rolls (M.Acc and MAB) do not effect pets. Beast/Puppet Rolls are for pet Atk/Acc, but Chaos/Hunter's are only for player Atk/Acc.

Remember too that Dancer's sambas initially helped pets, but S-E quickly stepped in and changed that. It seems that S-E is generally pretty reluctant to let pets get buffs intended for players.
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#34 Oct 21 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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RusticusSageo wrote:
Quote:
Admiral Jinte wrote:
Quote:
The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.

Carbuncle's favor = Regen (11 Dancer's Roll: 14 hp/tick / 17 hp/tick (w/o dnc / w/ dnc))
Ifrit's favor = improved "Double Attack" rate (11 Fighter's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o war / w/ war))
Shiva's Favor = enhanced magic attack (11 Wizard's Roll: +12/+16 (w/o blm / w/ blm))
Garuda's favor = enhanced evasion (11 Ninja Roll: +50/+65 (w/o nin / w/ nin))
Titan's favor = enhanced defense (Best Guess, 11 Chaos Roll, applied to defense: +31%/+41% (w/o def job/ w/ def job))
Ramuh's favor = improved critical hit rate (11 Rogue's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o thf / w/ thf))
Leviathan's favor = enhanced magic accuracy (11 Warlock's Roll: No Numbers Available that I know of)
Fenrir's favor = enhanced magic evasion (Best Guess, 11 Warlock's Roll applied to Magic evasion: See above comment about Warlock's Roll)
Diabolos' favor = Refresh (11 Evoker's Roll: 4 mp/tick / 5 mp/tick (w/o smn / w/ smn))

XI is not the lucky number for COR. It gives the most powerful buff, but it is not the lucky number. Each roll has its own lucky number. Chaos Roll, for example, has IV as its lucky number. So all of the buffs you stated are more powerful than what I think you should be expecting.


Yup, XI is the perfect number for COR not Lucky Number... .. Hooray for SMNs..


Not to mention Warlock's Roll's values are known. Lucky Number buff is 10 Macc and 14 Macc with rdm.

Edit: The reference to cor buffs with regard to the smn update and the fact that Titan buffs physical defense makes me wonder why cor doesn't have this available (on gallant's roll would make sense to me). Oh well, gratz smn's looks like a nice update for you guys. ^^

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 12:21pm by tmlane
#35 Oct 21 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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jlejeune wrote:

so it's not taking away resources to do our active jobs.


Yes it does. You can't /heal MP. The cost is way greater than you think if it actually does weaken BP.

If the weakness is large enough, SMN would still be useless only now instead of BP, release, /heal. It's summon, favor and... nothing.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 1:32pm by taishokukanoki
#36 Oct 21 2009 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
wth is Mellowy?
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#37 Oct 21 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Priphea wrote:
Holy ****, what the heck is Mellowy going to complain about now?


He'll find something. Spirits were ignored, I see.
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#38 Oct 21 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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wth is Mellowy?


<Found it!>:

Mellowy wrote:
Sigh. Fail update again.

Pros:

1. Summoners can now buff as well as CORs after level 55. (So we only suck for 55 levels now)
2. Lowered perpetuation was about time!
3. SMN burns should be pretty good now with up to 6 corsair buffs at max potency after a while.

Cons:

1. Now you can choose between Garuda with Hastega + Evasion up + level 5 Wind blade (The regular average SMN setup) or Titan with Stoneskin + Defense bonus + level 5 Geocrush (second most normal setup) ALTERNATIVELY Ifrit for LOLWARCRY + LOLPUNCH + DA bonus or Ramuh for LOLSPIKES + possibly 75 BP thunderstorm + Crit rate.

I.e. Either you use good wards and good merit pacts or you use good auras. No avatar has all three.

2. No ward updates. Yea, so we still have no reason to use anything but hastega, and only at 70+ with enough +skill.

3. No spirit updates. SE officially showed that spirits are dead and they couldn't care less about them. Considering they don't care for 8 magic pets, I see no future for the puppet mage frames.




As always, it is a good update done wrong. Here is how any SANE person would have made it:

Avatar's Favor (Lv.55 Recast Time: 5 minutes Duration: 2 hours)
Channels the avatar's power towards a beneficial status effect for party members within range. Reduces perpetuation cost and gives haste effect on pets while active.

Under this status the Summoner receives a third BP timer called Aura that allow you to select the following AOE buffs around your avatar.

<insert same image as in update notes>

PS. The effects also apply to pets.


I kid you not.
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#39 Oct 21 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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I thought you would have figured out by now that SE only cares about pure melee jobs and is only able to understand how melee jobs operate in their own game. They have no idea how to balance mages and pet jobs let alone how to give them abilities that's actually useful.

SE gives mages and pet jobs "interesting" abilities that has no place in the game. That's why I wouldn't be playing FFIV, it's made bey the same Devs and I have no confidence in their ability to make mages fun.
#40 Oct 21 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mellowy wrote:
Sigh. Fail update again.

Pros:

1. Summoners can now buff as well as CORs after level 55. (So we only suck for 55 levels now)


No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.

COR = can have two different buffs on each party member, and can have different buffs on different players. SMN = One party buff at a time, active on everyone in range.

COR = is not restricted from doing anything else while buffs are active (e.g. DD). SMN = is restricted in that you can't change avatar, and favors possibly weaken the active avatar.

SMN appears to be able to equal a lucky # COR roll for similar effects, but not the highest strength COR roll (XI, which is always better than a lucky). And that's "at its peak", with the update notes saying the strength of the effect is "gradually increasing". So as soon as you put up the buff, it won't be equal to a lucky COR roll.
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#41 Oct 21 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Sigh. Fail update again.

Pros:

1. Summoners can now buff as well as CORs after level 55. (So we only suck for 55 levels now)


No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.

COR = can have two different buffs on each party member, and can have different buffs on different players. SMN = One party buff at a time, active on everyone in range.

COR = is not restricted from doing anything else while buffs are active (e.g. DD). SMN = is restricted in that you can't change avatar, and favors possibly weaken the active avatar.

SMN appears to be able to equal a lucky # COR roll for similar effects, but not the highest strength COR roll (XI, which is always better than a lucky). And that's "at its peak", with the update notes saying the strength of the effect is "gradually increasing". So as soon as you put up the buff, it won't be equal to a lucky COR roll.


It really depends on how long it takes for your respective buff to max out.

I know it's not going to be the same as a maxed out cor buff, but a cor getting constant XI's on a buff (the only roll stronger than a lucky) is not going to happen very often. SMN's getting the consistency of a cor buff without the dangers of a bust or a bad roll (both strong possibilities for a cor and the job's key drawback).
#42 Oct 21 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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tmlane wrote:

cor buff without the dangers of a bust or a bad roll (both strong possibilities for a cor and the job's key drawback).


Merit allows COR to make their buffs much more consistent on the high end.
#43 Oct 21 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.


You know, I TRIED to sound at least a little positive. Sadly it backfired as "OMG, that is wrong. It won't be that good!".



But there are several things I fear, and that will come true (After all, this update was exactly what I feared).

1. No Favors will land on pets. They stack with songs, rolls etc, so obviously SE was thinking "yea, this will work just as normal buffs".

2. There will be a damage decrease when the ability is on (about 25% avatar attack reduction)

3. It will take about 3 min to gain full power. Just "randomly" the same duration your pacts are so you can never keep a ward on AND max potency.

4. If you ever get a party invite post 55, they'll tell you to use ifrit or get lost.



Of course with this I've set my expectations so low that I can't be anything but pleasantly surprised.
#44 Oct 21 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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taishokukanoki wrote:
tmlane wrote:

cor buff without the dangers of a bust or a bad roll (both strong possibilities for a cor and the job's key drawback).


Merit allows COR to make their buffs much more consistent on the high end.


Snake eye and Fold(the abilities you're referencing) do not guarantee consistent lucky rolls or XI's on a Cor's respective buffs (which is what they're going to need to match one of these Aura's these avatars give at peak strength). The chance for an inadequate buff is still very likely.

I think it sounds like a fair tradeoff. 1 Cor buff of value equal to a lucky roll up at all times is very good (this is still up in the air since it's unknown how long it takes to reach this level). Having anything more could potentially be overpowering.
#45 Oct 21 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
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I'm pretty pleased. This will also bring more focus to what the job could already do before hand. So many times I'm asked why Summoner is my favorite job. "Isn't it boring to play?" "Well, now all summoner's are is AF burning dummies." "You have too many restrictions."

Or even more focus to what the job can't do. No, I can't use 2 ward pacts back to back.

Hopefully now it wont be a job that's viewed so simply. Summoner has always been much more complex than people have given credit for, if you ask me.
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#46 Oct 21 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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i think it's a bit of a dis to not put the +DA/crit (or ****, +haste) on garuda, since that would be a real boon for SMN in merit parties. other than that, it looks like a really strong update, especially the magic stuff.
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#47 Oct 21 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
i think it's a bit of a dis to not put the +DA/crit (or ****, +haste) on garuda, since that would be a real boon for SMN in merit parties. other than that, it looks like a really strong update, especially the magic stuff.


{True strike.}

My initial reaction to the update announcement was 4 Blm 1 Cor 1 Smn pt for some extra magic power at ls events.
#48 Oct 21 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Default
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tmlane wrote:

Snake eye and Fold(the abilities you're referencing) do not guarantee consistent lucky rolls or XI's on a Cor's respective buffs (which is what they're going to need to match one of these Aura's these avatars give at peak strength). The chance for an inadequate buff is still very likely.


It doesn't guarantee consistent roll number, but it does provide a statistical increase to occurrence of higher results and a statistical decrease to the odds of a bust. (IE you don't need to double up/re-roll for higher number)

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 4:55pm by taishokukanoki

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 4:55pm by taishokukanoki
#49 Oct 21 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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But it isn't all the time. It will completely depend on how long it takes. It would be nice if it grew as fast as glittering ruby shrinks.
#50 Oct 21 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Not gunna do my old school choo-choo's but I'll just go in order

"Why is it an Ability not a trait"
Because it's only logical to expect a negative side effect that SE doesn't want us to spam back and forth between the 2 options, and assume we'll just choose one or the other. I'm thinking along the lines of Hasso/Seigan and whatever the new Nin 2 abilities were. But instead of giving us 3 choices (depending on part 3 of the update) we only get 2. Normal avatars where we can BP>Release>Repeat in a DD role (loose term) or Weakened Avatars that support the party.

"Will the pet get the buff as well"
Assuming the above is the way it will actually work, I doubt the pet will get the buff, although a weakend pet + a buffed pet = back to a normal strength pet? It will all depend on what the 'weakened' pet will constitute. Few Idea's already thrown out, BP timer, Smn skill, etc etc.

Looking at a few of these, My first guess, and probably (imo) most preferable, is double blood pact timers. At first thought there will be a lot of complaints, but assuming most of us are near 45 second recast as is, we're only looking at 1:30 timer. That's not really that bad when considering any of our Ward's normally used. In fact, it fits perfectly assuming our durations are 3 minutes. All buffs will still be active as before with no change. Hastega, Howl, and any other party buff used, is expected a 3 min duration, and your recast won't matter, unless you're keeping 3 wards on as is, and there are very few of you who do keep 3 buffs active. The reason this is my first guess, is because it's the same concept as hasso. But again it's just a guess.

Second possibility, someone mentioned a reduction in Smn Skill. While this would solve a handful of complaints of "Why did I spend this much time/effort getting 340+ Smn Skill, if I see no effect after the ~310 mark on anything but Siphon?" A percentage cut to Smn Skill would emphasize the need for the better gear to reach the Smn skill needed under the negative effect. While I won't write this idea off, it's less likely to be implied, because SE won't like the idea of All the positives of the job ability, if the negative effects can be negated with enough +Smn Skill gear/merits.

Other possibilities, lower attack/accuracy, or a more delay. I don't foresee SE going through the work of alternative tables for avatar acc/att for this ability, but slowing the avatar attack speed down would be as easy as applying a constant 'slow' effect which would be easy, but again, I doubt this will be the actual down side, but who knows.

Going back to my first guess of double the blood pact timer, let's take a look at the other side of the spectrum. First I'll just say, yeah it will suck for wards like sleepga from shiva when we're solo'ing etc. But lets look at the Rage side. For anything End game, where Smn are the main DD, yeah, it'll be no good, but for party situations or other events you have to see the bigger picture.
We're comparing BP/Release 3 times a minute, vs 2 BP + 3 minutes of melee dmg, lower perp cost, and a party AoE bonus. That's not a bad payoff, and I've even willing to bet, that on merit mobs, 3 minutes of melee damage will be near the damage 1 BP provides on average.
>> Quick math side note << 320 delay = 5.3 seconds, 3min = 180sec 180/5.3 = 33 melee swings, 33*70%acc = 23 hits. (celestial based on enil's melee threads on birds)42 Damage a hit would mean 966 Damage in 3 minutes. Which more than likely is what you're probably averaging with most 70 Pacts. Assuming the lowest cut in perp is -1tick, 3 minutes, is 60mp. So for 100 less MP you get the same damage expected. Which looks good on paper, but 3 minutes of avatar out means zero /healing. So, you're actually losing MP overall, but not nearly as much as you'd think. We can get into the melee'ing with spirit taker discussion if you want, I'm not really up for it. But It's hard not to expect anyone to have a -3 Perp Fay Crozier by now, which has a decent 50 base Dmg, which isn't too horrible for Spirit Taker, espesually if you're macro'ing in Mnd/Int. But like I said, different story, different time. And then you have to start fighting the 'omg tp feeding' issues.

Side Note>>> Fenrir's expected melee dmg is 52 per hit, and he attacks @ 4.6 seconds, which is 39 swings in 3 min @ 80% acc = 31 landed hits = 1612 damage in 3 minutes. WAAAAYYYY more than you can expect from a 3rd Eclipse bite. And that's based on Merit Mobs. Add in the fact fenrir is already the cheaper avatar and you're looking at potential, but his AoE effect is not as desirable, but Ecliptic Howl can be useful for the Party. Again on the Melee thing, any avatar other than Garuda allows you to use Walmart Turban, and 5% haste is a chunk to gain when considering melee dmg.

For the Solo'ers... Assuming option 1 is correct, this will be huge. I can't see any down side to this for you, you should all be jumping for Joy. Especially after reading what I wrote above about Fenrir's DoT and MP. Also take into consideration, that the damage will be more than double above when applied to EP/DC mobs, due to the higher avg melee as well as higher Acc rate.

For the General Smn's, you wanted lower perp cost, and incentive to keep avatars out, congrats you got it. If you expected it to come without any downsides, be realistic. Although I agree even with zero down sides to this ability, I didn't see it being over powering, but, such is life. And as a 'hybrid' job SE is always trying to push us into 1 choice of 3 roles. No downsides would allow us to do multiple roles. This gives us more tools to choose between the 3. End Game DD won't see any change, but our healer and support roles will be more viable in game, giving back some options we use to have.

For the Main healers, If you remember the relief you got when we were given /sch for Regen 2 in merits, this is even better. We just got Regen3GA with no mp cost. Free, FREE carby WITHOUT the need for a light staff, means you can use martial staff for your spirit takers, and /healing shouldn't be an issue. You get to keep Carby out for 3 minutes at a time (assuming you're still going to be hastega'ing) and shouldn't run into any MP issues even with /whm casting the occasional cure 3's. I read a lot of people say "I wouldn't mind being the party's b*tch/healer if I could at least do it with my avatars because that's why my jobs suppose to be about!!!11one1!!" While not everyone agrees with this, we can all certainly agree it's a large step in the right direction, and even is support roles, running around with carby will always be a regen 3'ga

For the other kind of solo'ing... Carby Kiting!
Guess what? HUGE update for us as well. Hate Free Regen 3 on (lets say half the time) Obviously you won't be in range for regen constantly, but there's no reason you can't stay withing Regen range until <pethpp> reaches 50%, plus we don't always need hp. But this will definitely help in the extend carby kiting situations where casting carby over and over, slowly builds hate over time, and carby doesn't pull hate back after the first hit or two (or miss or two if you have my luck, lol)

Again, the above is all based on the assumption the only downside is BP timer being doubled, which as I said, I think is the most preferable downside listed so far. Well... Actually the -smn skill would be the easiest to overcome, lol. But for that specific reason I don't see it becoming the implemented downside.

Wall o text, but I've been quite for a while. :p
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#51 Oct 21 2009 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
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No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.


You know, I TRIED to sound at least a little positive. Sadly it backfired as "OMG, that is wrong. It won't be that good!".


Well hey, people seem to be getting on you for not jumping for joy at the update. I'll balance it out a little and call out that overly optimistic statement ;)

Quote:
4. If you ever get a party invite post 55, they'll tell you to use ifrit or get lost.


How is that any different from any other job being expected to play a certain way? Parties expect a BRD to use Minuet/Madrigal on melees, Ballad on mages. They expect a COR to use Evoker's on mages and Chaos on DDs. RDMs are invited to parties to heal and refresh, not to cast Enspells and nukes.

And honestly, depending on party makeup it's really probably "Ifrit or Diabolos or get lost". Then you have Shiva's for a mage party or a particular event. The rest of the favors seem pretty situational.

Quote:
Of course with this I've set my expectations so low that I can't be anything but pleasantly surprised.


I *am* a bit surprised there's not more grumbling about no new avatars, after S-E actually talking about them in the past. People seem pretty positive in general about making SMN a clear third place buffing job (which it probably already was, this just pushes it closer to BRD COR). It's certainly a plus, and a way for SMNs to get lv.55+ party invites a lot easier. But I really don't think it's as fantasic as some people are making it out to be.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 5:22pm by Anza
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