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#52 Oct 21 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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taishokukanoki wrote:
tmlane wrote:

Snake eye and Fold(the abilities you're referencing) do not guarantee consistent lucky rolls or XI's on a Cor's respective buffs (which is what they're going to need to match one of these Aura's these avatars give at peak strength). The chance for an inadequate buff is still very likely.


It doesn't guarantee consistent roll number, but it does provide a statistical increase to occurrence of higher results and a statistical decrease to the odds of a bust. (IE you don't need to double up)


So what's your point? 1 consistent buff is going to be more potent than 1 that fluctuates (especially when it needs to hit 2/11 values to be greater than or equal to the consistent buff). This is the whole reason why ppl prefer a brd over a cor from a buffing standpoint(well that and haste). Still speculation though since we don't know how long it takes the avatar to max out.
#53 Oct 21 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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The fluctuations are of a narrower margin because optimal roll strategies does exist. The fluctuations are further then skewed by Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes creates, Higher highs and higher lows.
#54 Oct 21 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of avatars, SE has never spoken about them as "job adjustments", but rather "new content". They'll have their own update note (if they are coming).

It could also just be a translation error, and these favors are what took 2 years to design and "balance".
#55 Oct 21 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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#56 Oct 21 2009 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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taishokukanoki wrote:
The fluctuations are of a narrower margin because optimal roll strategies does exist. The fluctuations are further then skewed by Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes creates, Higher highs and higher lows.


A pointless argument since despite a narrower margin the buff is still inconsistent. Snake eye does not guarantee a lucky roll or XI even with a proper roll strategy. You're also neglecting the fact that the ability is on a 5 minute timer when maxed out making it only usable for 1 buff per roll rotation which a cor will often use to salvage a bad roll or save for their more powerful buffs.

I'll ask you again. What is your point? This does not cause a buff to cease to be inconsistent, and if a SMN can reach an equal value to a lucky number in an acceptable time then it will be the more potent buff.
#57 Oct 21 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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tmlane wrote:
taishokukanoki wrote:
The fluctuations are of a narrower margin because optimal roll strategies does exist. The fluctuations are further then skewed by Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes creates, Higher highs and higher lows.


A pointless argument since despite a narrower margin the buff is still inconsistent. Snake eye does not guarantee a lucky roll or XI even with a proper roll strategy. You're also neglecting the fact that the ability is on a 5 minute timer when maxed out making it only usable for 1 buff per roll rotation which a cor will often use to salvage a bad roll or save for their more powerful buffs.

I'll ask you again. What is your point? This does not cause a buff to cease to be inconsistent, and if a SMN can reach an equal value to a lucky number in an acceptable time then it will be the more potent buff.


Regardless I doubt the Favors will be "job enhanced" so it will only be more potent buff for parties who have no WARs or DRKs or SAMs as melee jobs, or no BLMs for nuking jobs.
#58 Oct 21 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rolls are "free" but Favors are not. In fact, Favors are WAY TOO EXPENSIVE.

Actual cost:
1) Decrease in avatar performance
2) Perp cost if there is any
Opportunity cost:
1) MP lost by NOT /healing.

But more to the point. Can the Favors reach max effect within the span of one merit fight? Which is what? 30-40 sec?

If not, then you'll have to keep it up for multiple fights and not able to rest. IT's all around bad.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 6:07pm by taishokukanoki
#59 Oct 21 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Wow...
It seems they finally added the update that would make summoners and summons truly valuable... Only about 5 years too late. It's sad because I would have LOVED this back when I played...
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Yay!
#60 Oct 21 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Although this update will make us more desirable in parties, I'm not sure it makes us desirable enough to warrant choosing a Summoner over a Corsair or Bard for buffing, or even as a support-buffer to work alongside one of those jobs. Unless there are more details to this update that make the situation better, I'm not convinced that it'll improve our ability to find parties. There might be some interest in Summoners at first, but after the average player realizes we can't be healer and buffer at the same time effectively, invites will drop off again.

I do like some elements of this update, but the more I think about it, the only thing it means to me is that with the new ability active and my avatars' perpetuation cost reduced further, I'll be able to kite Djinns for longer before having to rest.
#61 Oct 21 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Congrats on your upgrade SMNs, you've truly deserved something. It may not be a new avatar but man oh man, I really want to see you guys in a manaburn party most of all.

EDIT: really bad typo lol

Really curious how the Double Attack rate will proc with Ifrit's Favor.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 6:03pm by RaideLeonn
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#62 Oct 21 2009 at 7:05 PM Rating: Default
Heya Manifest! Any bets whether they eventually implement a second mode like Sch, or just keep it a single selectable mode like Rdm?

I'm rather curious to see what a Smnburn plays like now (an uncapped Smnburn, not a capped Astralburn). Does each Smn get to pick a different avatar now? Especially if the avatars *can* get these buffs.

Worth noting: Garuda can benefit from her own Hastega, which stacks with Bard March. Garuda cannot benefit from March. Hastega will not benefit other avatars, even other Garudas. Thus, we have a precedent to *suggest* that the avatar will benefit from her own Favor. What would be REALLY nice is if other pets (especially other avatars) can also benefit from the Favor.

Also worth remembering is that glorious 'bug' that let pets receive buffs in Campaign. The coding *does* exist to allow it, S-E just has it set to disallow it.
#63 Oct 21 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I was overcame with a sense of Deja Vu when I saw the adjustment notes. After 10 minutes of digging through my old posts, I found this post I made in Dec 2008.

http://www.zam.com/forum.html?forum=29&mid=1230249312182478080&page=1&howmany=50#m1230619930210778891

The similarities are striking.
Dekusutaa Dec 29, 2008 wrote:

Here's the more 'wish list' items.

1)Add Party-wide bonuses for having avatar out. Up to 3 SMNs can stack their differing avatar bonuses. Repeats do not stacks. Effects are Halved for /SMN and do not stack with multiple /SMN.
Ifrit +5% attk +30 Ice Resist
Leviathan +5 MDB +30 Fire Resist
Shiva +5 MAB +30 Wind Resist
Garuda +5% Eva +30 Earth Resist
Carbuncle +1 Regen "Resist Charm" +30 Dark Resist
Titan +5% Def +30 Thunder Resist
Ramuh +5% Crital Hit +30 Water Resist
Fenrir +5% Accuracy +30 Light Resist
Diabolos +5 Conserve MP "Resist Sleep" +15 All Elemental Resist

2) For the new avatars being designed, have then do very specific things
ie: one that can take a beating and tank. one that can do a lot of damage but has a + dmg penalty making them not ideal for taking hits.






Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:08pm by Dekusutaa
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#64 Oct 21 2009 at 8:40 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Although this update will make us more desirable in parties, I'm not sure it makes us desirable enough to warrant choosing a Summoner over a Corsair or Bard for buffing, or even as a support-buffer to work alongside one of those jobs. Unless there are more details to this update that make the situation better, I'm not convinced that it'll improve our ability to find parties. There might be some interest in Summoners at first, but after the average player realizes we can't be healer and buffer at the same time effectively, invites will drop off again.


Isn't SMN already considered a good healer? I'm honestly asking, because I don't merit anymore unless for fun (I've had capped merits for quite some time, well non NIN, but NIN merits suck anyway). I would assume hastega and cure III would be enough in most merit pts. Not to mention dia2 if you decide to go /whm. Instead of trying to be healer and buffer at the same time, why not just pick one? If you're healing, sub whm or sch. If buffing sub cor (up to 17% atk) or brd (ballad) which go along nicely with your new buffs.

Maybe I'm just biased because SCH is basically the last choice for healing in merits because of lack of haste. But SMN doesn't seem bad to me as healer or buffer. I see problems trying to do both at once though.

I'd love to merit with a SMN. I think SCH and SMN work well together, we cover each others weaknesses very well. SMN can hastega and receive weather, and with SCH there, DDs have absolutely no reason to hold back with seigan and /nin. Now with the new buffs, maybe SCH can be accepted as a healer. 35% AoE haste, 1 atk buff + dia2, double attack, and 100% offense from DDs, oh yeah and lol +7 Str. But I'm just a silly SCH with a dream...


Edited, Oct 21st 2009 11:03pm by Fermion
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#65 Oct 21 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Squintik wrote:
Although this update will make us more desirable in parties, I'm not sure it makes us desirable enough to warrant choosing a Summoner over a Corsair or Bard for buffing, or even as a support-buffer to work alongside one of those jobs. Unless there are more details to this update that make the situation better, I'm not convinced that it'll improve our ability to find parties. There might be some interest in Summoners at first, but after the average player realizes we can't be healer and buffer at the same time effectively, invites will drop off again.

I do like some elements of this update, but the more I think about it, the only thing it means to me is that with the new ability active and my avatars' perpetuation cost reduced further, I'll be able to kite Djinns for longer before having to rest.


If Carby's regen ability averages >3 hp/tick and stacks on Carby itself, it sounds like it will (based on the comparison to the Corsair roll's lucky number strength) it be awesome for marathon soloing some tougher NMs and great for HNM and end game where dot could be an issue.

The real question is if the buffs stack on the avatar. I <3 Garuda and Wind Blade which I took to lvl 5, but I'd be heartbroken to have to roll back merits to build up Shiva and Heavenly strike with Shiva's irresitable MAB bonus. But I gotta do what I gotta do.

The unfortunate part is, I've only just recently decided to spend merits on Titan's Geocrush too...


Edited, Oct 21st 2009 10:09pm by Dekusutaa
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#66 Oct 21 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Could it be fair to assume that there would be a part 3 to the update? Since they lumped smn and bst in one? Could the 3rd be...a new... nah.
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#67 Oct 21 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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Isn't SMN already considered a good healer?


Only thing making SMN better than WAR at healing is the amount of MP. With the introduction of DNC a SAM/DNC is probably superior to SMN/WHM for healing... but you wouldn't want a good job sacrifice their main for others, leave that for crappy jobs.

Quote:
Worth noting: Garuda can benefit from her own Hastega, which stacks with Bard March. Garuda cannot benefit from March. Hastega will not benefit other avatars, even other Garudas. Thus, we have a precedent to *suggest* that the avatar will benefit from her own Favor. What would be REALLY nice is if other pets (especially other avatars) can also benefit from the Favor.


As I've said since SCNM was added to the game, I suspected the aura effect to come in a SMN update. And since we have precedents of bosses not getting slow or gravity themselves, I doubt the avatars will get the boosts themselves.
#68 Oct 21 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Fermion wrote:

1) I'd love to merit with a SMN. I think SCH and SMN work well together, we cover each others weaknesses very well. SMN can hastega and receive weather, and with SCH there, DDs have absolutely no reason to hold back with seigan and /nin. Now with the new buffs, maybe SCH can be accepted as a healer. 35% AoE haste, 1 atk buff + dia2, double attack, and 100% offense from DDs, oh yeah and lol +7 Str. But I'm just a silly SCH with a dream...


Smn and a Sch in one party (as is) would be overkill. Good Sch can keep the entire healed as is, and they make claims of being able to allow all DD's to go /sam or /war and go balls to the wall, which they use as an argument to overcome no haste. I've yet to merit with a Sch healer, so I can't confirm nor deny that claim.

Smn, can also keep the entire party healed and hasted on their own and also use Rages as well. There's really no point (as is) to have both in one party. Each of them separately would benefit more from a Brd, Cor, or Dnc than they would a Sch, or Smn. Now, Smn's more common issue now, is we require everyone to use /Nin to be safe and smooth. It's gotten to the point now, where people have realized Whm and Rdm are both able to support a party while allowing War's to /sam, Sam's to /war and Drg to /sam. Because of that fact, people are a lot less likely to settle for a Smn or Sch as merit healers these days.

Moving on to the update and 100% support role...
Smn/Cor with Ifrit Favor.
Assume you're spamming Crimson Roar every 1:30 (again I'm assuming double BP timer) and using Chaos Roll, as well as the expected 18% Double Attack from the favor.

We're looking at 18% Double Attack, BP ward's 9% Attack plus /Cor's Chaos Roll's Average 8.2%*.
18% Double Attack & 17% Attack.

That would put us dead even with Corsairs for front line buffs, assuming they were using Fighters(DA) + Chaos(Att).
But... Cor can Deal more Damage than a Smn, and with zero MP cost.
Cor can offer Refresh to the back line, as well as hMP or Exp bonus.
Cor can also reliably and quickly sleep a mob.
Cor can also (not optimally) act as a puller.

So even if you wanted to make the statement that a Smn could keep up with a Cor in Damage, the 3 other remaining factors will still justify everyone choosing a Cor and Brd over Smn. Haste is not something we can offer a party unless the main healer is a Sch or Dnc. From a Sch's standpoint, maybe a Smn becomes the #2 option second to Bard. Dnc main healing... Is what I consider an exotic party that you can't make a basis on, along with drg/whm parties. Pre-update, I'd also venture to say that a Dnc was a better support job than Smn, assuming they have 5 merits into Haste Samba. Post update, I'd have to guess that for the typical merit party Smn would be ahead of Dnc now. But Smn can still offer Mana Burns something.

* /Cor Chaos Roll average is based on the theory that you'll Double up on 1-3 and 5. Leaving a possible 4,6,7,8,9,10,11 result, 12%,6%,7%,1%,8%,9%,15% respectively. Combined = 58. 58/7 = 8.2% Attack on average.
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#69 Oct 22 2009 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
Only thing making SMN better than WAR at healing is the amount of MP.

And AOE hastega
And AOE Stoneskin
And hMp gear
And Clear Mind 5
And Elemental Siphon
And YinYang Robe
And Auto Refresh
And...
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#70 Oct 22 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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If the general feel is that the avatars will be weakened during this ability, it would make no sense for them to gain the favor bonus. If that's the case, it will be pretty disappointing.

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#71 Oct 22 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I foresee a "an avatar weakened cannot move, but still retains everything else" coming, which would mostly help mages strategies over melee ones.

I'm not really interested by merit performance honnestly, we don't want smn to become a new bandwagon job like SAM did and end up with 90% of ppl not knowing what they do.
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#72 Oct 22 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Smn and a Sch in one party (as is) would be overkill. Good Sch can keep the entire healed as is, and they make claims of being able to allow all DD's to go /sam or /war and go balls to the wall, which they use as an argument to overcome no haste. I've yet to merit with a Sch healer, so I can't confirm nor deny that claim.


In that situation, the SMN would obviously be buffing so /cor would be best.

A 350 hp stoneskin, at the very least -25 damage phalanx really do make healing very easy. **** throw in AoE blink if you want to make the case even stronger, although I've never needed it. Also, everyone has pro4, it's not a huge difference but defense does matter a little bit when you hardly have any. Usually by the time one person's stoneskin is broken, someone else has taken hate, then by the time their stoneskin has broken, I'm casting another one. The way I do it is when the 2nd person's stoneskin has broken, I cast it again. I rarely ever even use cure, regen 2 is usually enough.
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#73 Oct 22 2009 at 5:52 AM Rating: Default
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There's not any real update notes that say the avatar will be weakened is there? Besides the one people translated from the other site, there isn't anything..definate? Just curious because people seem to be so sure on it, but with good reason I will admit that. Just wanted to make sure that I didn't miss something that specifically said the avatars would be weakened. Me personally I don't think there will be but I have nothing to back that up so all I can really say is won't know until we get through the update.
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#74 Oct 22 2009 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gerkin wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Only thing making SMN better than WAR at healing is the amount of MP.

And AOE hastega
And AOE Stoneskin
And hMp gear
And Clear Mind 5
And Elemental Siphon
And YinYang Robe
And Auto Refresh
And...


All that means is that SMN is an MP battery; not a better healer. The only reason people want us in parties in a healing role is because we have the MP supply to back up the many, many, many small cures we will have to throw out. And that's based on us not keeping an avatar out.



Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 8:55am by Squintik
#75 Oct 22 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Default
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you guys dont think the, suppresses avater power, or whatever could mean OTHER avaters? i mean your recieving the favor of one avater, why wouldnt the other avaters not want to help you as much since you dont have their favor or whatever. thats probably the "negative" to the stance like always. and it probably is a ja so smn cant just keep switching around, i mean you can hit one and then go to the other, but then you have to wait 5 min for the first one, if it was a jt, they would basically all be in effect at once.
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#76 Oct 22 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Unclear wrote:
There's not any real update notes that say the avatar will be weakened is there? Besides the one people translated from the other site, there isn't anything..definate?


It's on all other language versions of the playonline FF11 page. English is the only one that got left without a mention of avatars becoming weakened. I guess they assumed that we'd understand that "channels the avatar's power" means that its power is used to give the effect. I didn't at first, but now I think I see what they meant.

From the French page:
Quote:
Diminue la puissance de l'avatar en échange d'un effet protecteur donné par celui-ci. Le coût magique de l'avatar est réduit sous cet effet.


I can't even speak French but I can understand it a bit. I'm pretty sure the beginning there says "Decreases the power of the avatar in exchange..."

An online translation of the German page, since I understand that less, gives:
Quote:
Your Avatar gives a positive status effect to group members in the effective range and thereby is weakened. While the duration of effect are reduced maintenance costs.


And someone already mentioned that the Japanese version of the page also says this.

relmmagus wrote:
you guys dont think the, suppresses avater power, or whatever could mean OTHER avaters?


I see what you're saying, and this is how I imagined it would work when I first thought of a system like this (before they announced it). However, it seems to point to the avatar you're currently using in every case.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 1:25pm by Ildon
#77 Oct 22 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Okay, that I didn't fully know. Thank you for that. Well it is a bummer that our avatar will be reduced in some type o strength. That could mean a number of things. Thought if they weaken the avatar too much it will..really not change much except we will be seen as one of those campaign towers that give you buffs as long as you stay near it haha.

Well now just to wait and see what exactly goes wrong on the JA for the negative.
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#78 Oct 22 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Default
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In b4 we find out the specifics like Carby's Regen bonus is 1hp/tick, Diabolos 1mp/tick, Shiva is MAB+2 or something crappy like that. Just sayin... its SE. I'm skeptical.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 4:19pm by Hapernack
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#79 Oct 22 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Unclear wrote:
we will be seen as one of those campaign towers that give you buffs as long as you stay near it haha.


LOL

That makes me wonder what the range on these effects will be - and I'm assuming that they'll be centered on the Avatar and not the Summoner. With that in mind, I wonder also if the Summoner has to be within a certain range of the Avatar - what happens if the Avatar is fighting a mob along with the rest of the party, but the Summoner runs some distance away? Will the party still benefit from the Avatar's effect as long as "Avatar's Favor" is active?

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 4:43pm by Squintik
#80 Oct 22 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Even though Mellowy is pointing out some valid criticism, the bottom line is that you guys just got Refreshga. That's pretty sick, and you couldn't do it before this update.

Earthen Ward + Defense Bonus sounds nice.

I'm really interested in Magic Evasion, but I think it's basically just getting a huge Barspell boost, and if it is, that's pretty valuable. Only WHM has Barspells that reduce damage through MDB, the rest just increase the chance of a resist. This will help that hopefully.

Enhanced MAB is definitely nice as well.

The rest are not that great, but I'm sure Ifrit will see a fair bit of use in melee heavy parties.

Also, the -perp is just neat to have in general. Even if you're just walking around and the lessened avatar power (whatever that turns out to be) isn't a factor, you can maybe have a couple free full-time avatars if it turns out to be awesome.

Also, Regenga is a very nice bonus to have for nothing more than just keeping Carby out while walking around.

Sure this doesn't fix SMN, but it's all good, and there's more coming since they are releasing avatars eventually.
#81 Oct 22 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
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It is quite good, depending on how well we can convince others about how to play.

Everyone else will most likely think "Oh, SMN is now a cure 3 spam machine offering hastega and DA bonus". What I'd like to see is that they see how to maintain a max DA bonus you need to melee on SMN to get MP back by spirit taker, and make more people use SMN as DD - support, not healer - support.


Melee with pet and support the party is actually what I always wanted. It just feels a bit like a slap in the face when not all Favors are good and there is a rumoured damage down part as well.

SE seem to have set this as a company standard. Add what people want, but watered down to something they don't.
#82 Oct 22 2009 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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The trouble at this point is, we don't know enough about this update. We know what Avatar's Favor can do, but we don't know the exact intensity of the perks, nor the costs for using the ability. So far we're all assuming the perpetuation reduction will be significant enough to make some avatars free (or close) - but knowing SE, it'll probably be only -1 or -2 at most, and even Diabolos' refreshga at maximum potency won't be enough to stop our MP from falling. In any case, while the ability is in use, we'll be severely limited in what we can do - and in a matter of time, we'll be low on MP and will need to rest, which means dismissing our Avatar and depriving the party of their bonus effect for at least a couple of minutes at a time. It's not going to take long for parties to notice that downtime, and realize they should've gone with a COR or BRD instead.

But like I said, we don't know enough at this point. Things might be better than we think - but then again, they might be worse.
#83 Oct 22 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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JingWoo wrote:

Sure this doesn't fix SMN, but it's all good, and there's more coming since they are releasing avatars eventually.


You do realize this would probably be the last update to SMN. FFXI's life cycle is coming to an end with the release of FFXIV. They should have gone for broke and give out as much update as needed in order to attract people to play Summoner content. As it seems, they just wasted time coding something that people who completed the Summoner content wouldn't really use.

And after seeing how useless this update is going to do to Summoner popularity, no one is going to start Summoner. Wasted time, coding and money.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 7:10pm by taishokukanoki
#84 Oct 22 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
Melee with pet and support the party is actually what I always wanted. It just feels a bit like a slap in the face when not all Favors are good and there is a rumoured damage down part as well.


Like I said in another post though, not all COR or BRD buffs are "good" either. There's a reason CORs roll Chaos and Evoker's constantly, and rarely touch more than half of their Rolls. Here's the breakdown:

(4) Commonly used DD rolls - Chaos, Hunter's, Fighter's, Samurai
(3) Commonly used mage rolls - Evoker's, Healer's, Wizard's
(2) And a couple nice general utility rolls - Corsair's, Dancer's
-------
(9 of 20) Commonly useful rolls

(10 of 20) Uncommonly used, but possibly situationally useful rolls
Half of COR's rolls fall into this category: BST, PUP, DRG, THF, SCH, RDM, BRD, NIN, BLU, MNK. They might be good for a particular event (see: Monk's Roll on Chariots in Salvage, Drachen on an Astral Burn focused strategy), but they aren't commonly used. Some are simply overshadowed by other rolls - Rogue's Roll is a good example, Crit+ is simply rarely as good of a melee buff as Atk+, DA+, Acc+, or Store TP, so it doesn't get used not because it's useless (more crits is certainly a good thing!), but because other Rolls are just plain better for the vast majority of parties/events.

(1 of 20) Garbage rolls.
Hi Gallant's Roll, nice to see you!

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For SMN, they get about the same ratio of useful to situational only Favors:

(3 of 9) Really nice ones - Ifrit gives Double Attack for general melee buffing, Diabolos for Refreshga as a general mage Favor, and Shiva for MAB in events.
(1 of 9) Nifty general utility Favor - Carbuncle (Regen)
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(4 of 9) Commonly useful Favors


(4 of 9) Uncommonly used, but possibly situationally useful Favors
Garuda (Evasion), Ramuh (Crit+), Leviathan (M.Acc), Fenrir (Magic evasion - and I wonder if this isn't just a funky update note that actually means traditional MDB, like Magus's Roll). They might have their place in some events, but will typically be overshadowed by the more commonly used benefits of the previously mentioned Favors.

(1 of 9) Crap Tier.
Titan. Who uses DEF+ for... anything these days? There's probably always a better choice. Maybe if you have somebody super-tanking a bunch of stuff. Even then, you're probably gonna be better off using your Favor to buff other party members to kill faster. It's probably less useless than Gallant's Roll, but it still seems like the worst of the lot.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 7:56pm by Anza
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#85 Oct 22 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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In b4 we find out the specifics like Carby's Regen bonus is 1hp/tick, Diabolos 1mp/tick, Shiva is MAB+2 or something crappy like that. Just sayin... its SE. I'm skeptical.


SE wasn't even remotely vague about it. Did you read the update notes? Obviously not...

Quote:
You do realize this would probably be the last update to SMN. FFXI's life cycle is coming to an end with the release of FFXIV. They should have gone for broke and give out as much update as needed in order to attract people to play Summoner content. As it seems, they just wasted time coding something that people who completed the Summoner content wouldn't really use.


FFXI won't be summarily shut off when FFXIV comes out. Lineage II didn't kill off Lineage. EverQuest II didn't kill off EverQuest.
#86 Oct 22 2009 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
It is quite good, depending on how well we can convince others about how to play.

Everyone else will most likely think "Oh, SMN is now a cure 3 spam machine offering hastega and DA bonus". What I'd like to see is that they see how to maintain a max DA bonus you need to melee on SMN to get MP back by spirit taker, and make more people use SMN as DD - support, not healer - support.


Melee with pet and support the party is actually what I always wanted. It just feels a bit like a slap in the face when not all Favors are good and there is a rumoured damage down part as well.

SE seem to have set this as a company standard. Add what people want, but watered down to something they don't.


I actually think all of the favors are good. Some are just more situational than others.

I am reserving judgment until I find out exactly how the avatars are "weakened." I pray that it is just an increase in the blood pact timer. If they also receive their own favor then this update is awesome.

If they are weakened power-wise, then we will have to see my just how much.
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#87 Oct 22 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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The update made no direct mention of Avatars being weakened. Though the mention of transference of avatar power to beneficial buffs seem to hint at it.

I'm not sure we can jump to that conclusion. It could simply be a penalty of blood pact timers.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 7:49pm by Dekusutaa
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#88 Oct 22 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

FFXI won't be summarily shut off when FFXIV comes out. Lineage II didn't kill off Lineage. EverQuest II didn't kill off EverQuest.


It's also a fair assumption that FFXIV would cannibalism enough of FFXI's subscription to make a full time dev staff for FFXI not feasible. It'll mostly be ran on life support with the occasional update to gear and dungeons. It's what happened to EverQuest and Lineage.

And lets face it. FFXI is a dated game. It kept enough subs to be profitable but overtime, it's expected to die out as people move on.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 11:14pm by taishokukanoki
#89 Oct 22 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dekusutaa wrote:
The update made no direct mention of Avatars being weakened. Though the mention of transference of avatar power to beneficial buffs seem to hint at it.

I'm not sure we can jump to that conclusion. It could simply be a penalty of blood pact timers.


Scroll up a few posts on this page and read what Ildon said.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 11:50pm by Squintik
#90 Oct 22 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been thinking a lot about this update recently. It sort of reminds me of the other big SMN update (BP timer split/ SMN magic skill), in that on the surface it seems amazing, but when the dust settles SE managed to dance around the important concerns while making SMN marginally more effective.

Now, I'll gladly eat crow if these abilities also apply to the Avatars. ****, if it came down to it I'd rather have the abilities effect only the avatar and the summoner as opposed to the party. IT would be great to add a little diversity to the avatars; maing Levi. and Shiva the best pets for nuking, and Ifrit/Ramuh the best for 70 pacts.

But it seems like the avatars will not get the abilities, which is very disappointing. Newsflash SE, we didn't -just- want to keep our avatars out to stare at them (which this update will do), we wanted to actually USE them.

But I can't really justify getting too worked up over this, after all it's better than nothing. After the huge WHM overall recently, you'd think SE would be a little more liberal..
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#91 Oct 23 2009 at 12:25 AM Rating: Good
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It's also a fair assumption that FFXIV would cannibalism enough of FFXI's subscription to make a full time dev staff for FFXI not feasible. It'll mostly be ran on life support with the occasional update to gear and dungeons. It's what happened to EverQuest and Lineage.


EverQuest still got multiple expansions post EQ2 release.

Keep in mind FFXI has 32 servers. They aren't going to empty out all at once! At the very worst SE will probably start shutting down individual servers for a while before the game shuts down, but I don't see the content release cycle shutting off for at least a few more years.
#92 Oct 23 2009 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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Still seems like a good boost from all avatars, maybe Ramuh's, but I've never seen many worried about critical hit rate or even cared to ask for it over other boosts from other jobs. But I can see Titan's being used if needed. That's just me though, even on my other jobs that can party buff I cast thngs that seem a little odd but I've gone through an event so much that I know the limits of my melee's vs the time to live on my pld or ninja tank.

I hope that the negatives aren't as bad as people are putting out there. I do not think it's ovef powering to have our avatars at full stength and give out a buff that we most likely won't even get. Though if we do get the boost from the favor, I wouldn't mind the bit of reduction it would seem fair. Ifrit gets an attack - on him, but gets the double attack buff and if needed a /COR pet roll might just help bring up that negative side.

But I guess it wouldn't make sense to have all of those favors go to the avatar too...what would Diabolos do with Refresh? Maintain his MP that I can't use already? That Siphron should work on avatars too. My pet gets aspir casted on him and I see MP taken out and I can't help but think "why?"

Edited, Oct 23rd 2009 8:41am by Unclear
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#93 Oct 23 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Default
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Looks like Ifrit and Diabolos will become the avatars that are used most often now instead of Garuda.

But as much as I like Garuda it's about time we have a reason to use other avatars.
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#94 Oct 23 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Default
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Like I said in another post though, not all COR or BRD buffs are "good" either. There's a reason CORs roll Chaos and Evoker's constantly, and rarely touch more than half of their Rolls. Here's the breakdown:


The issue is larger than so. I don't mind crappy favors, I mind them being bound to avatars.

I don't see any CORs needing to change to pirate's gun because they wanted DA on the party. Neither do I see them needing to change to Fire Cards. Neither do I see DA limiting your other rolls to just 2, out of which both happens to be poor choices.

A COR's only restriction on rolling, is rolling itself. A SMN's only restriction should be favors themselves. We should not be able to use refresh and DA at once, and that would be identical to what you are arguing about, and I would agree with you.
#95 Oct 23 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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EverQuest still got multiple expansions post EQ2 release.


Classes usually doesn't get balance changes and new abilities while on life support. Expansions yes, to milk all the money it can get. But the Expansions are usually new dungeons and items only.
#96 Oct 23 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
(4 of 9) Commonly useful Favors


(4 of 9) Uncommonly used, but possibly situationally useful Favors
Garuda (Evasion), Ramuh (Crit+), Leviathan (M.Acc), Fenrir (Magic evasion - and I wonder if this isn't just a funky update note that actually means traditional MDB, like Magus's Roll). They might have their place in some events, but will typically be overshadowed by the more commonly used benefits of the previously mentioned Favors.

(1 of 9) Crap Tier.
Titan. Who uses DEF+ for... anything these days? There's probably always a better choice. Maybe if you have somebody super-tanking a bunch of stuff. Even then, you're probably gonna be better off using your Favor to buff other party members to kill faster. It's probably less useless than Gallant's Roll, but it still seems like the worst of the lot.


I disagree with one thing here. I don't think we have any crap tier rolls. It depends how much end game you do, but i end up in parties with 2-4 blu in my linkshell all the time when we do Dark ixion and certain upper tier ZNM. I always wished i had something to give them more than shining ruby (even though +10% def is a nice boost for cannonball. Now i'll be able to put shining ruby up and leave out titan both to keep them from being wiped out and to boost the damage cannonball does. When we do PW now, my ls leader was considering our new blu parties consist of blu x4 smn x1 brd x1 (whm pop in for protectraV and drop, then smn put up shining ruby and titan def boost, brd double minne)

It seems to me that we just have good rolls and situationally useful roles. As far as the Magic evasion i'm sure fenrir will give magic evasion and not MDB. Usually they say what they mean when it comes to these two things and they've been using the term magic evasion a lot as of this year. Magic evasion is like an all in one resist stat to all enfeebles and magic. It increases your chances of resisting spell damage (1/2 1/4 1/8, etc) and reducing the potency and duration of enfeebles or resisting them all together. This could be good in tank parties which are fine on everything else and the tank needs to withstand elemental damage attacks often.
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#97 Oct 23 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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taishokukanoki wrote:
Quote:

EverQuest still got multiple expansions post EQ2 release.


Classes usually doesn't get balance changes and new abilities while on life support. Expansions yes, to milk all the money it can get. But the Expansions are usually new dungeons and items only.


Actually the EQ expansions have been quite substantial and they have yet another one coming up, called Underfoot. I'm not an EQ acolyte but my understaning is that it ties into EQ lore and is dungeon heavy with good end game content.

Their previous expansion had similarities to FFXI's WoTG as it was a time travel storyline exploring a period in their world's history in the past when there was war and strife.

Granted EQ gets an expansion every 12 months and FFXI has had 18 month lulls. But I find it extremely unlikely that the content will just end after Shantoto's ascension considering EQ has been at 100k users for years now, and FFXI easily has 5 times that number today. Even if you factor in large amounts of players moving on to XIV, there will be enough left to sustain the game for years,
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#98 Oct 25 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Dekusutaa wrote:
The update made no direct mention of Avatars being weakened. Though the mention of transference of avatar power to beneficial buffs seem to hint at it.

I'm not sure we can jump to that conclusion. It could simply be a penalty of blood pact timers.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 7:49pm by Dekusutaa


Heh, I was hoping it would be a penalty to "critical" things to avatars like CHR, INT, AGI, and evasion. you know, the things SE seems to load up AF armor with on jobs that it totally makes sense for.
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#99 Oct 26 2009 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but here's what I'm expecting: Avatar melee damage, along with physical and magical damage from bloodpacts will probably all be significantly less; bloodpact:wards will *probably* remain the same, and Avatars will likely have significantly less HP while under the effect of Avatar's Favor. Their accuracy will probably be reduced also. In other words, they won't deal much damage, and won't be able to take much either. The only thing they'll be good for is the effect they give the party, and the occasional bloodpact:ward.
#100 Oct 26 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
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Dear SE:

Congrats on keeping the SMNs interest up. Avatar Favor looks interesting but its a 50/50 shot if its gonna suck or you guys just plain **** it up. Having the avatar buff the party while staying out is one thing, but lets not hurt their ability to much, no SMN just wants to be a buffer/healer...they want to do other things as well and not be expected to go into 1 roll it seems.


Also on a big note...

You guys at SE better get off your asses and announce some kinda surpise or something else for releasing those avatars. If you keep making all the SMNs wait then it had better be worth it. Otherwise your gonna see a lot less SMNs for making them wait this long... or at least some nasty posts/mail.

The ball is in your court SE.... dont dissapoint.
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#101 Oct 26 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Summoner seem to remain a job designed for fun in a game played for efficiency.
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