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Avatar Accuracy Debunked!Follow

#1 Oct 14 2009 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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The final in my Testing Saga, this time I tested accuracy, specifically focusing on the Accuracy Bonus granted when you are -over- the skill cap of Summoning Magic and "Enhances" gear. Simple testing, I did a baseline test with 269 skill (on cap, no merits, no gear bonuses). Noted my merits in avatar acc, and subtracted from the result to get overall avatar acc (baseline). I then tossed on 10 summoning magic skill and noted the difference. I tested both melee and bp accuracy using TP return and Rush. In total, I performed 70 Rushes with and 70 without the ring (total of 700 hits).

Baseline Test

Greater Colibri
TOTAL HITS: 350
AMOUNT LANDED: 250
HIT RATE FOR RUSH: 71.43%
33% (4)
24% (3)
41% (5)
24% (3)
24% (3)
41% (5)
41% (5)
16% (2)
24% (3)
33% (4)
16% (2)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
41% (5)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
41% (5)
41% (5)
24% (3)
33% (4)
16% (2)
24% (3)
16% (2)
24% (3)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
16% (2)
24% (3)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
41% (5)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
41% (5)
41% (5)
24% (3)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
33% (4)
24% (3)
16% (2)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
33% (4)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
33% (4)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
16% (2)
33% (4)
16% (2)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)



 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Shiva                  5885   29.81 %     141/76   64.98 %     30/49    38.86     10     64/95   79.40    7.09 % 


Noticed whilst testing: Seemed to fluctuate between 64%~66% for melee hits, blood pact accuracy seemed incredibly high in comparison.

Observed Hit Rate for Melee: 64.98%
If Accuracy==Evasion, Hit Rate is 75%. Every 1 acc/eva results in a 0.5% change in this. Avatars do not have any level correction (which is usually 4acc/level bonus/penalty) so 336-20=316 acc, minus my merits (3 merits, 9 acc total).

Therefore we can conclude that Avatars have a base of ~307 accuracy.

Also of note is the unusual increase in accuracy of Blood Pacts compared to Melee Accuracy. Overall BP accuracy is listed at ~71%. This strongly hints at some sort of innate accuracy bonus with blood pacts, which could be in the form of raw accuracy or a lower cap on hit rate. Assuming it's one or the other, we can conclude:

-Blood Pact Accuracy has an innate bonus of ~10-15 accuracy when performing physical blood pacts.
OR
-Blood Pact Hit Rate has a lower cap (perhaps 70%)

Testing Summoning Magic Skill

Very simple premise. I will add 10 summoning magic skill in the form of Evoker's Ring, which should add accuracy to both/either Blood Pact/Melee accuracy. I suspect 1 summoning magic over the cap will give 1 accuracy, or in other words, +0.5% hit rate. If this is true, Evoker's Ring should increase my Hit Rate by an impressive 5%. I do not think it will affect melee hits however. Let's see.

Greater Colibri
TOTAL HITS: 350
AMOUNT LANDED: 262
HIT RATE FOR RUSH: 74.86%
33%
(4)
41% (5)
16% (2)
24% (3)
33% (4)
16% (2)
8% (1)
41% (5)
33% (4)
16% (2)
33% (4)
24% (3)
16% (2)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
41% (5)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
24% (3)
33% (4)
24% (3)
24% (3)
16% (2)
16% (2)
33% (4)
24% (3)
33% (4)
16% (2)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
24% (3)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
41% (5)
41% (5)
33% (4)
41% (5)
41% (5)
24% (3)
16% (2)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
33% (4)
24% (3)
33% (4)
41% (5)
33% (4)
16% (2)
41% (5)
24% (3)
33% (4)
24% (3)
41% (5)


 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Shiva                  6804   30.87 %     157/84   65.15 %     30/52    39.78     14     63/96   79.64    8.92 % 

Observed Hit Rate for Melee: 65.15%

No difference in melee hits, proving Summoning Magic Skill over cap bonus do not affect them. Blood Pact hits have indeed increased by 3.43%, which falls short of the 5% increase expected, but is far too high to suggest 2 skill is 1 accuracy. I suspect with a larger sample set it will even out to 5% as expected. Therefore, I can say with some confidence that:

1 Summoning Magic Skill over cap = 1 Accuracy


Enhances Avatar Accuracy Bonus

Finally, the same test was performed but with Evoker's Spats. I suspect I will only see an increase on Blood Pact again, though the amount I have no idea.

Greater Colibri
TOTAL HITS: 250
AMOUNT LANDED: 196
HIT RATE FOR RUSH: 78.4%
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
24% (3)
33% (4)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
41% (5)
41% (5)
41% (5)
41% (5)
33% (4)
24% (3)
33% (4)
33% (4)
16% (2)
33% (4)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
24% (3)
33% (4)
33% (4)
41% (5)
33% (4)
33% (4)
16% (2)
24% (3)
16% (2)
41% (5)
41% (5)
41% (5)

 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Shiva                  8063   28.12 %     185/72   71.98 %     30/52    39.39     20     64/91   78.20   10.81 % 


Surprisingly, the effect has affected both BP and melee hits! The increase also seems substantial, with an average of a 7% increase in hit rate (melee) and 7% increase in hit rate (BP). This equates to a +14 accuracy bonus for both melee and blood pacts.

Now the final question, does this boost stack? We can easily test this by using both Summoner's Bracers and Evoker's Spats. Since we have confirmed Summoning Magic Skill only applies to Blood Pacts, the only boosts to Melee hits should be in the form of both of these accuracy bonuses. I suspect I will see +28 Acc (or +14% hit rate from base, so 79% hit rate). It can be assumed if it stacks it will also apply to Blood Pacts.

 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Shiva                 10077  100.00 %     241/64   79.02 %     30/52    40.03     11     63/91   79.00    4.56 % 


And there you have it. The bonus does indeed stack, and the amount is the same.


Conclusions
Blood Pacts
*Blood Pacts get some form of accuracy bonus similar to how Weapon Skills do. This bonus is either +10~15 accuracy or a hardcap of 70%, further testing on Wyrms needed.
*Avatars have ~307 accuracy at Lv75
Summoning Magic Skill
*Summoning Magic Skill adds 1 accuracy for every 1 skill over the cap.
*Only works on BP hits.
Enhances Avatar Accuracy
*Adds 14 accuracy.
*Works on melee and BP hits.
*This effect stacks.

Implications
-Evoker's Spats are by far better than any other leg pieces which grant Skill instead (for accuracy purposes). The bonus granted by Enhances Avatar Accuracy would only be matched by a whopping +14 Summoning Magic Skill.
-Generally speaking each piece of "Enhances Avatar Accuracy" will improve your hit rate by 7%. So both Summoner's Bracers and Evoker's Spats will give you a 14% increase in hit rate (unless you're capped that is).


Edited, Oct 14th 2009 7:23pm by kegsay

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 2:53am by kegsay
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#2 Oct 14 2009 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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This is just something minor, but in the last paragraph you refer to the gear as "enhances avatar attack" and i think you meant accuracy. This is a really nice test you've done here. Results on the spats i think we expected to see both accuracy rates improved, but the accuracy boost granted was a surprise.

I like it. Maybe now summoners will stop doing Rush in summoner spats so much.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 7:36pm by shadowkind
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#3 Oct 14 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
Interesting results Evoker's Spats info is especially which means using them is ideal over Oracle's Braconi for BP Rage.

Edit for grammar

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 5:40pm by komugichan
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#4 Oct 14 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Default
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Now my only question is, will +1ing the legs increase your accuracy?

All in all though great testing. I have long suspected that 1 skill over the cap = 1 accuracy. I just did not think it would only effect BP.
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#5 Oct 14 2009 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
All in all though great testing. I have long suspected that 1 skill over the cap = 1 accuracy. I just did not think it would only effect BP.
The specifically mentioned BPs in the update notes. Anything about skill affecting melee was speculation after that.

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20061017UJ0a71/detail.html
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#6 Oct 15 2009 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry yes I meant accuracy haha, was very late last night. I was also pleasantly surprised at just how good Enhances gear was, I was expectiing more like 3-5% increase, certainly not 7%. As for the question of "Does Evoker's Spats+1 increase accuracy by more?" I suspect not, as Summoner's Bracers also provided the same bonus. If they provided different bonuses, it would be a good indication that Evk. Spats+1 might give a different bonus too, but this isn't the case. Nonetheless, I will test it whenever I happen upon a pair.
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#7 Oct 15 2009 at 2:46 AM Rating: Decent
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i have actually been using herder's subligar for pet ACC during rage attacks..

any chance you could throw them into your test ;)
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#8 Oct 15 2009 at 2:50 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't actually got Herder's Subligar, but yes I can perform some tests if I happen to get lucky with the Caskets.
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#9 Oct 16 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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Interesting (and surprising) results. Thanks for doing the testing kegsay!

A few comments:
-The accuracy boost you were seeing on Rush with no summoning skill over the cap could possibly be due to the innate accuracy bonus to the first hit of a weaponskill?
-I'm still not convinced 1 skill = 1 accuracy. The margin for error is too great to run around declaring this as fact (3.4% for 10 skill is +0.68% per skill, closer to 1 acc per 2 skill than 1 acc per 1 skill). I think it warrants further testing, rather than just concluding that 1 skill = 1 accuracy. My money is on either 1 acc per 2 skill, or 0.9 acc per skill (like the combat skill formula for skill over 200).
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#10 Oct 16 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
-The accuracy boost you were seeing on Rush with no summoning skill over the cap could possibly be due to the innate accuracy bonus to the first hit of a weaponskill?


I thought that too, but it can't be. If it was, I would've see lots of high damage BPs, but that's not the case, we often see times when the first powerful hit clearly misses and the other hits land, resulting in 300~ predator claws instead of 1k+.

Quote:

-I'm still not convinced 1 skill = 1 accuracy. The margin for error is too great to run around declaring this as fact (3.4% for 10 skill is +0.68% per skill, closer to 1 acc per 2 skill than 1 acc per 1 skill). I think it warrants further testing, rather than just concluding that 1 skill = 1 accuracy. My money is on either 1 acc per 2 skill, or 0.9 acc per skill (like the combat skill formula for skill over 200).


Summoning Skill does seem to be fickle whether it is 1 acc/skill or 0.5acc/skill, or even 0.9acc/skill. A larger sample size would need to be done, probably by doubling the number to 140 Rushes. We can be fairly certain it's somewhere between 0.5 and 1 accuracy per skill, I prefer to give Summoning Magic the benefit of the doubt, the only time it will make a considerable difference is if you have the same equipment slots with Pet:Accuracy+X and Summoning Magic Skill+X. Without a massive sample size to pin down exactly where SMN Skill lies between 0.5-1 (we're talking a difference of 0.25% hit rate here), I think it's best to make your own judgement calls.
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#11 Oct 17 2009 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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OK, if I'm understanding the math correctly, to cap out BP accuracy (on greater Colibri) you would need approx +50 Accuracy over base? (following normal 1 accuracy = .5 hit %)

So I guess we can conclude, with the numbers thrown around and assuming Evoker's Spats and Relic hands (base +28 accuracy, not counting the SMN skill)

If 2 skill = 1 accuracy = 44 skill over cap needed
If 1 skill = .9 accuracy = 25 skill over cap needed
if 1 skill = 1 accuracy = 22 skill over cap needed

or in other words, pathetically easy to cap accuracy. So I have to ask again SE....why do you refuse to offer awards and benefits to SMNs that spend the time and effort to max out their skill and equipment?

I mean other than Siphon we see once again that there really isn't just much benefit to being as good as possible. Sigh.

But was suprised to see about the Evoker's spats. Guess I'm gonna have to drag them out of the cellar and start using them again. And how beastly are Summoner Bracers +1? Between 20~26 accuracy on them alone....

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#12 Oct 17 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Default
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And even with such an easy time to reach cap, Rush still can't deliver. I guess none-crit attacks just don't stand a chance.
#13 Oct 17 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I've actually had really good results on rush ever since avatar accuracy was adjusted to be effected by skill over the cap. Not crit like damage or anything, but I wouldn't call it bad if I can get it to do 1100+ on Dark ixion every now and then. Generally does around 600-800 on him, which is what most pacts do on him unless its a crit, so i'm happy with it. If you follow up with a merit pact her tp gain is awesome as you already know.

I think it's just working better for me now though because i gained some tenshodo coffer items that boost pet acc.


those items +merits seem to give rush the acc it needs to perform on the level of the others consistently, but as kegsay reports in the avatar bloodpact formulas, the first hit of rush is weaker than that of other 70 pacts because the pact itself is 2-4 more hits than the others. Flaming crush has also worked its way back into my heart, it's great as long as all 3 hits land.
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#14 Oct 17 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Surprisingly, the effect has affected both BP and melee hits! The increase also seems substantial, with an average of a 7% increase in hit rate (melee) and 7% increase in hit rate (BP). This equates to a +14 accuracy bonus for both melee and blood pacts.


this sounds accurate. something i'd read when i began levelling smn had stated that the af pants (both nq and hq) were +15 accuracy, so so+14 is remarkably close and the difference between the 2 numbers caneasily be attributed to margin of error.

Quote:
Now the final question, does this boost stack? We can easily test this by using both Summoner's Bracers and Evoker's Spats. Since we have confirmed Summoning Magic Skill only applies to Blood Pacts, the only boosts to Melee hits should be in the form of both of these accuracy bonuses. I suspect I will see +28 Acc (or +14% hit rate from base, so 79% hit rate). It can be assumed if it stacks it will also apply to Blood Pacts.


this in interesting though as iirc the enhances accuraccy from relic hands was thought to be weaker than aflegs and have the value of +10. but even so the combined total of 25 isnt so far from 28 so again could simply be margin of error.

sadly though unable to remember where i had originally read this information and cant find anything on google either. it's good to see these results are pretty consistent though.. very good work. rate up!
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#15 Oct 17 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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shadowkind wrote:
I've actually had really good results on rush ever since avatar accuracy was adjusted to be effected by skill over the cap. Not crit like damage or anything, but I wouldn't call it bad if I can get it to do 1100+ on Dark ixion every now and then. Generally does around 600-800 on him, which is what most pacts do on him unless its a crit, so i'm happy with it. If you follow up with a merit pact her tp gain is awesome as you already know.


But when you can still critical higher with P.claws (I've been in the 1200s on DI) and more importantly sustain a higher average BP, it's a waste of time to BP Rush. (And not to mention "lolmeritBP on DI")

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#16Mellowy, Posted: Oct 18 2009 at 2:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Don't get me wrong. My Shiva does about as good as any other avatar on average on things like Wyrms. Its just that if you find that DC mob you won't really benefit much from using Rush on it over the crit BPs. (In fact I believe my own testing shows Rush is about 200 damage higher than Double Slap)
#17 Oct 18 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
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Umm....yeah? It's been known for a very long time that Flaming Crush's 3rd hit is magical.

And I garuntee if you stop eyeballing and actually get real numbers, your Rush is NOT putting up the same average as Predator Claws.
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#18 Oct 18 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Default
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dakpluto wrote:
Umm....yeah? It's been known for a very long time that Flaming Crush's 3rd hit is magical.


Why would it be the third hit?
#19 Oct 18 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Cause in the animation he does a fire effect on the third hit.
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#20 Oct 18 2009 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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OK, I guess techinicaly could be melee > magical > melee, but always assumed 3rd hit since that is stupid, and animation does seem to correspond to it being the 3rd.

Of course if it's 2nd or 3rd is pretty irrelavent
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#21 Oct 18 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Great findings.

I too believe that the boost in acc for BP could be due to a sinificant acc boost to first hit of a WS. This can't be dismissed by eyeballing, simply because if you eyeball a SAM, you'll witness a ton of gekko wiffs. This isn't to say that gekko doesn't get an acc bonus, cuz it does, but eyeballing it will lie to you.
#22 Oct 19 2009 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
Don't get me wrong. My Shiva does about as good as any other avatar on average on things like Wyrms.


bwahaha, that's just hilariously wrong. i'm not even capped on acc on wyrms, there's no way in **** you are. and even if i'm close, windblade is still leagues better than any 70s pact for fafnir, ouryu, lambton worm, kirin, most ZNM and nidhogg.

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 7:30pm by frodnonnag

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 7:31pm by frodnonnag
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#23 Oct 21 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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kegsay wrote:
Quote:
-The accuracy boost you were seeing on Rush with no summoning skill over the cap could possibly be due to the innate accuracy bonus to the first hit of a weaponskill?


I thought that too, but it can't be. If it was, I would've see lots of high damage BPs, but that's not the case, we often see times when the first powerful hit clearly misses and the other hits land, resulting in 300~ predator claws instead of 1k+.

Quote:

-I'm still not convinced 1 skill = 1 accuracy. The margin for error is too great to run around declaring this as fact (3.4% for 10 skill is +0.68% per skill, closer to 1 acc per 2 skill than 1 acc per 1 skill). I think it warrants further testing, rather than just concluding that 1 skill = 1 accuracy. My money is on either 1 acc per 2 skill, or 0.9 acc per skill (like the combat skill formula for skill over 200).


Summoning Skill does seem to be fickle whether it is 1 acc/skill or 0.5acc/skill, or even 0.9acc/skill. A larger sample size would need to be done, probably by doubling the number to 140 Rushes. We can be fairly certain it's somewhere between 0.5 and 1 accuracy per skill, I prefer to give Summoning Magic the benefit of the doubt, the only time it will make a considerable difference is if you have the same equipment slots with Pet:Accuracy+X and Summoning Magic Skill+X. Without a massive sample size to pin down exactly where SMN Skill lies between 0.5-1 (we're talking a difference of 0.25% hit rate here), I think it's best to make your own judgement calls.


I think Pergatory is exactly right here. Let's assume you get capped ACC (95%) on the first hit of Rush. So let's only consider the hits following the first hit when calculating ACC %age.

First hit will account for 350/5 = 70 swings. 
First hit will account for 0.95*(350/5) = 66.5 hits. 
 
Baseline Test: 
Adjusted Swings = 350 - 70   = 280 
Adjusted Hits   = 250 - 66.5 = 183.5 
 
ACC = 183.5 / 280 * 100% = 65.54% 
 
 
10 Skill Test: 
Adjusted Swings = 350 - 70   = 280 
Adjusted Hits   = 262 - 66.5 = 195.5 
 
ACC = 195.5 / 280 * 100% = 69.82% 
 
 
10 Skill ->  4.24 % ACC

It comes a lot closer to the expected 10 ACC increase assuming 1 skill = 1 ACC. Also you said melee hits fell into a 64-66% ACC range, and this adjustment fits that observation pretty tightly.

Nice test... and I think if you assume 95% hit rate on the first hit, you've pretty much satisfied my curiosity.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 9:13am by Hakamaru
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#24 Oct 22 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
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dakpluto wrote:
OK, I guess techinicaly could be melee > magical > melee, but always assumed 3rd hit since that is stupid, and animation does seem to correspond to it being the 3rd.

Of course if it's 2nd or 3rd is pretty irrelavent


I suspect BOTH are fire though. That would explain why fire resistant mobs are so easy to hit consistant on (they only take damage from first hit). Else I must say that the accuracy is fantastic on Ifrit and I always land 2 hits, and then get resisted on the third. (would a magical hit be 100% accuracy btw? but with chance of resist?).

Because while Ifrit does suck, I've found his BP damage to be consistently bad. The damage variation is much less than what you'd expect if he had a 3 hitter like Garuda. I can't even say I've ever seen Ifrit hit for 120ish damage on a whiff.
#25 Oct 24 2009 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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kegsay wrote:
I haven't actually got Herder's Subligar, but yes I can perform some tests if I happen to get lucky with the Caskets.


Let me know your results on that. I'm very interested in Evoker's Spats vs Herder's Subligar accuracy bonus.
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#26 Oct 24 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
168 posts
Hey guys, I can help with the herder's subligar info. I was in a party not to long ago with two bst, one which had herder's equipped and one who did not, both using crab jugpets. They arn't as much as +14 accuracy, but i don't recall the numbers off the top of my head. When i get home from work i'll see if i can find the parse and post it for everyone.
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