gimped summons?Follow

There's no difference between Avatars obtained from the level 20 fights and ones obtained from the Prime fights. Your friend doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

Summons are summons are summons are summons. :)

Regardless of how you get them, they'll be in no way gimped because you got them from the solo 20 fight vs the regular prime fight. ^^

It's sad and quite annoying that people still spout out this information to newer players when there's absolutely no truth behind it whatsoever. The avatars you get in the lv. 20 solo fights are absolutely identical to the ones you could get from the lv. 60+ party fights.

Also remember, BSTs steal exp! Even if they are just in the zone!

Well not really a big deal, but it helps, having fenrir at level 1 means the difference between level 10 in an hour, and level 10 in 5 hours. He has the same perp as carby until 20, when you get carby mitts, and he hits for much harder. My roommate wanted me to level summoner to 37 for him way back in the day, before WOTG, and he had everything back then. I got him to 13-14 in about 2-3 hours. This was back when easy preys were giving 30 exp MAX per kill. With a little over double exp per kill on an EP, you can reach level 10 in about an hour. Not only that but with fenrir, soloing Ts is very easy.

But other than that, its not that big of a deal. He isn't really useful until he gets both ecliptic howl and growl. Eclipse bite isnt bad on Imps either. I myself got all the avatars through the mini fights, and I generally score higher BPs than other summoners.

Fenrir remains the best avatar to use in the early levels, or even up to 50 or so. Moonlit Charge, Crescent Fang, and Lunar Cry are all potent for that level range. The earliest BP even worth using to tie up Rage timers is Double Punch at 30 or Megalith Throw at 35. Even then, I'd rather use Crescent Fang up until Double Slap at 50 for the rather powerful paralyze effect. It's less risky than Ramuh too, since it's single target.

Fenrir is already one of the avatars we cycle buffs in for in the higher levels, so there's no reason you should be able to cycle in Lunar Cry, which is just a different way of boosting the entire party's accuracy, an early version of Ecliptic Howl essentially. Coupled with his lower MP cost and higher than average melee potential, he's THE party avatar.

The only bad thing about Fenrir is his bullshit dependency on the moon.

I must have misread lightningcount when he said this:

To which I countered that he is in fact useful before Ecliptic Growl and Howl.

However, in accord with the unsolicited and ancillary argument (no one actually asked) that you may or may not be gimp, it's not a "gimp" or "not gimp" deal. Not having Fenrir leaves a SMN with a painfully obvious lack of tools at those early levels. It's an impediment by a physical limitation, ironically one of the definitions of gimp.

Of course it's possible to level SMN without him, given the number of testimonies. But you are unarguably limited if you choose to do so.

Whoops, missed his comment somehow (actually thought you were quoting me >_>).

Anyways, like I said, he's without a doubt good but I don't think it leaves you with a painfully obvious lack of tools by not having him.

I leveled SMN 1-65 (actually 62 I think) just fine without him and there were of course situations he helps in but that doesn't mean I just sat there twiddling my thumbs. I was still plenty useful to the party and fit my role exactly as needed. By some strange miracle my parties survived because I healed just fine, I had plenty of buffs to choose from, and I even did damage when needed (I did most of my level well before Ward/Rage).

I've even had people tell me I was one of the best summoners they have ever played with and that was well before I got Fenrir. If I was painfully lacking in tools, I doubt I could get that kind of compliment. And before you say it, no, these were not newbs who had never seen a summoner, these were actually really good players who knew what they were doing.

The *only* people I've ever actually met in the game that look down on you if you don't have Fenrir are the level 40+ warriors with level 10 equipment if you're lucky who just don't know any better or the uppity people that think if you don't have the best possible equipment at all possible times it's painfully obvious you're not good enough and don't deserve them.

I've played my early SMN career without Fenrir, I know others that waited as well, and I know people that have had him their whole career and all the ones who do not fit into one of the two above categories pretty unanimously agree that you don't need him. He's a perk.

So again, no, in no way are you gimped at all for a lack of Fenrir in those early levels. Gimped would be a SMN wearing the absolute wrong gear, wrong sub, being 20+ with only Carbuncle, and so on.

Fenrir is a high level reward and should be treated as such. You get access to Summoner when you're level 30 and not level 60, that is the reason they added the trial size trials in the first place. They wanted to let people be actual useful summoners when they get access to the job while still leaving a reward for them when they get higher levels. If they can get Fenrir earlier, awesome, if not, it's not a big deal and gives you something you can work towards.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 3:32pm by DrObvious

You seem to have mistaken this as an attempt at derision.

Most people recognize that the avatar system was poorly thought-out and designed. That's why most will accept a SMN not having Fenrir or Diabolos. This is far from a crusade to oust players lacking.

That doesn't mean the inarguable fact remains that you're missing functions without him. This is different from being able to perform them to a lesser degree, but a complete lack. Label it gimp or don't, that doesn't change.

The period when his early abilities truly shine is those early levels everyone talks about. A good third of your leveling career, his BPs are the best. His paralyze is potent, more damage and safer than Ramuh's. His Lunar Cry is the single best debuff for low parties. He's one out of three jobs that can dispel.

If you do get him after that period is done, of course you'll never see just how beneficial they are.

A great axe user can WS Sturmwind and be called a great player, but that doesn't mean Shield Break isn't better. Likewise, a gaxe user that only tries Shield Break at 65-75 will never see just how useful it is 1-37+.

These are things that you should recognize. Not some party leader. You shouldn't be told this after the party invites you.

It's a steaming pile of crap that SE forces you to fight the uncapped battles, and then give Fenrir some of the best low level BPs a SMN can get, we all understand that. This has given rise to veterans recommending that you level SMN as a second job, but we know that you can't force people as to what they level.

It still can't change that he has some of the best low level BPs and that without him you're not just performing those functions to a lesser degree, you're outright lacking them. These should be obvious things.

That may be true.


That, however, is not.

Back in the heyday of rampant RMTing, all but the richest of WHMs leveled without Erase. But just like that WHM that did learn Erase at 32, that SMN with Fenrir, all other things equal, is better because he could do things SMN's without could not.

The abilities he could do also happen to be the most useful abilities for the first half of leveling.

The schism created where Fenrir is a luxury is not because of his abilities, but because of the system he was put in. That nail analogy is a bad analogy because it assumes you can do those things in the first place, which isn't true. Although nowadays a skilled group of 5 players can be geared to the hilt and reasonably expect to win, that you have to be of significant level to fight him is the only reason people don't expect a SMN to have Fenrir at level 20.

No one is forcing a player to get Fenrir for those reasons, but claiming that a SMN without Fenrir is the equal of a SMN with, all other things considered, is simply not the case.

I agree with most of the people here who say isn't not a big deal. But I agree..you are gimp without fenrir.

Even if a party DOESN'T ask if I have fenrir..I found Lunar Cry to be a big help on Mandy's when in Yhoat/Yutung. When it was Enemy -ACC down, that helped conserve MP and give me bigger windows for Ifrit Rage BPS (since mandies double hit)..and when it was Enemy -EVA...it helped a ton in parties that had no bards..cause you know no pug in the 20s/30s has peeps downing ACC food.

So will groups care? likely not..they normally want a healer and anything else is icing. But any tool you are lacking is one..you..well...lack. Period. and when you have those 1 tank and 5 melee groups that cant hit the broad side of a barn...fenrir is the next best things to a BRD or COR in those painful low level parties to help maintain a solid exp rate.

Granted, I had fenrir at level 1..but I stopped leveling at 20 to get Diablos..cause I don't want to be in a situation where I said "if I only had Diabolos"....

Fenrir can be dou'd/trio'd by summoners... beg your linkshell and I'm sure you can get it done. Hell, a talented RDM can solo fenrir.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 9:32pm by Alvehyanna