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#1 Jul 19 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
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So I was testing out my different options for using spirit takers in melee, and I got quite confused at my results. It is on colibri/spiders right outside Al Zahbi.

Best result:

Martial Staff
Damage 56
TP bonus
Average Spirit Taker: 300+

Confusing Results:

HQ Staff
Damage 30
Average Spirit Taker: 180

Mekki Shekki
Damage 70
STR+5
Attack+12
Average Spirit Taker: 180



As you can see, I get very slim difference between 30 damage and 70 damage, +5 STR, +12 Attack, while TP bonus makes a difference. TP bonus gives about 1.5 modifier so expecting at least 270 MP is not wrong, but it seems very odd that base damage, STR and attack matters so little.

Anyone an expert and can explain this to me? Of course the sample size was a bit small (about 10 WS on each staff), but I still expected there to be a marginal difference between my HQ staffs and a Mekki Shekki.

Was my SMN perhaps already capped higher than the EP mobs so attack/STR didn't matter? But in that case, does weapon damage stop mattering for WSes on EP too?


It seems like I'll have to do some T-VT tests too, and then see if I should go with Martial Staff or not. Mekki Shekki is at least better DoT than the others, but I'm not sure I want to give away 50% extra MP for that.
#2 Jul 19 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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I doubt SMN is capping their attack/defense ratio, even on EP.

The basic gist of it is that the TP Bonus on Martial means you're always WS with at least a 1.5 fTP multiplier, instead of 1.0. That multiplier is multiplied against everything, weapon damage, STR/VIT comparison, and INT MND mods. Meaning everything acts 50% higher.

Martial's 56 weapon base damage is multiplied 1.5 fTP for 56*1.5=79.5. Higher weapon damage used in a weapon skill than Shakki's 70.

That means you're comparing 14-15 attack to 50% more WSC (INT and MND) and attack is not going to win.

Unless you save TP to 300%, in which case Shakki is better, Martial will probably win.

Shakki will always be better than an HQ staff because weapon damage doesn't "cap". Higher weapon damage will always give higher damage. Without knowing what your weapon skills were, all I can say is you had an unlucky fluke or averaged wrong.

Edited, Jul 19th 2009 11:45am by jlejeune
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#3 Jul 19 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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HQ staff is 35 DMG, not 30.

I'd suggest getting some real numbers before starting a discussion on it. Those numbers are quite nice and round, and exactly the same. I seriously doubt those are your real averages. And 300+ is obviously not an average.

Get a real average.
#4 Jul 19 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Martial Staff

216(Full MP)
364(Full MP)
233(Full MP)
238(Full MP)
349(Full MP)
228(Full MP)
245(Full MP)
366(Full MP)
429(Full MP)
250(Full MP)

Hard to determine average here, because I constantly hit max MP on WS. 300+ was written because of this, but you can guesstimate what it is on your own.

HQ Staff

311
204
181
199
148
176
187
321
153
204

Feel free to average it. I just said 180 seemed reasonable.

Mekki Shekki

164
180
275
206(Full MP)
183
194
160
159
159
198
215

Feel free to average this to. I thought it was too similar to the previous one and just said 180 here too.
#5 Jul 19 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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Why are you meleeing?
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#6 Jul 19 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hot ****! It looks like I need to find a Martial Staff!
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#7 Jul 20 2009 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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CommanderKing wrote:
Why are you meleeing?


You got to challenge yourself in this easy game.
#8 Jul 20 2009 at 4:36 AM Rating: Good
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Mellowy I chose to omit the final recorded value from your Mekki so that everything balanced in data points. For the record, had I omitted the lowest value instead of the last, the average would have been 193.4 instead:

 
Martial    HQ    Mekki 
  216	   311    164 
  364	   204	  180 
  233  	   181	  275 
  238	   199	  206 
  349	   148	  183 
  228	   176	  194 
  245	   187	  160 
  366	   321	  159 
  429	   153	  159 
  250	   204	  198 
 
Averages: 
		 
  291.8	  208.4	  187.8 


That is interesting that the average return from the (Apollo's Staff?) HQ Elemental Staff has slightly higher numbers than the Mekki Shakki, but were there any external factors that could also modify these numbers? Buffs, gear swaps, mob debuffs?

Obviously this promotes the idea that further, actual testing be done, but yeah... Summoner melee.
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#9 Jul 20 2009 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I melee when soloing so knowing what weapons will produce the best spirit taker interests me. It would make the difference between using carby, fenrir, or another more expensive avatar. I only ever got 300+ MP from too weak mobs though. I do alot of fov in ro'meave on weapons and my average is usually 109MP which is oddly the cost of fenrirs bloodpact. I get alot of 98's and sometimes 150+.. may have had 200+ a time or two.

So if I could get 300+ MP back per fight I would use an avatar that could destroy my enemy quicker.
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#10 Jul 20 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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aldistuck wrote:
I melee when soloing so knowing what weapons will produce the best spirit taker interests me. It would make the difference between using carby, fenrir, or another more expensive avatar. I only ever got 300+ MP from too weak mobs though. I do alot of fov in ro'meave on weapons and my average is usually 109MP which is oddly the cost of fenrirs bloodpact. I get alot of 98's and sometimes 150+.. may have had 200+ a time or two.

So if I could get 300+ MP back per fight I would use an avatar that could destroy my enemy quicker.


The "secret" to the Martial Weapons is that they have a TP bonus on weaponskills. For staff, it's like having an extra 100 TP when you perform the Weaponskill. That's why Martial Staff is regarded as the most useful staff to farm with when melee'ing as Summoner. You get to 100TP at a decent rate on EP-TW mobs, and you get to use the TP bonus on weaponskills.
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#11 Jul 20 2009 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
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CommanderKing wrote:
Quote:
Why are you meleeing?


Why shouldn't we melee when soloing? The avatar will tank unless you do a sc closing with retribution (Axe Kick + Retribution = Fragmentation).

Sometimes I sub thf even on EPs. Sneak Attack + Spirit Taker using HQ staff has gotten me 250-500 mp back.
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#12 Jul 20 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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I regularly farm spiders for webs in Thickets as SMN/THF using Pluto's Staff and Fenny. Use Eclipse Bite for fast battles and keep Fenny out for as long as you feel like farming by using SA + Spirit Taker @ 100 TP for consistently great mp returns.

Give it a try.
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#13 Jul 20 2009 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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I honestly cannot think of any reason a weapon with a higher damage rating averaged lower. It should do better. Granted, that is a tiny sample set, but still. The ratio from attack/defense does have a hard cap, but weapon damage and WSC mods do not.
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#14 Jul 20 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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HQ is also slightly off since I used 2 different ones. Austere and Pluto, so one had 5 AGI, and stand for a few of the first WSes, and the latter ones were with +2 to every stat or whatever is on Apollo.

I think the worst part with HQs "parsing" higher is that they also had -3 perp on to raise the MP saved even further.

Further testing is probably best.
#15 Jul 26 2009 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Stupid question, which is probably obvious, but I have to ask to be sure...

Did you keep track of the exp per kill on each mob?
I assume you did, and you took averages only on mobs of 1 specific level.

Just curious, as it could explain the problem of results for each staff.
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#16 Jul 26 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I killed what was around. There is always competition for EP mobs these days.
#17 Jul 27 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Then there is part of your problem.
In order to properly get a data sample, you need to be testing on the same level mob every time.
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#18 Jul 29 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a little off topic, but still about SpiritTaker. The modifiers are 50% INT and 50%MnD, so i've tried macroing in Errant Gear for like big boost the mnd and int, but the difference I see in Dmg seems to be neglible, possible due to the -str/dex stats that the gear also has.

Anyone have gear tips for getting hte most out of your SpiritTaker?
#19 Jul 30 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Default
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STR is much more important than MND and INT, so never remove any STR for MND/INT. I don't remember why, but it had to do with some damage checks between mob and player.

As far as I know your priorities should be:

TP bonus > Damage > STR > MND/INT. Though you probably want things with double attack on as well. (grip and earring come to mind) You might also want some accuracy, even if it seems like WSes are fairly accurate compared to melee hits.
#20 Jul 30 2009 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
STR is much more important than MND and INT, so never remove any STR for MND/INT. I don't remember why, but it had to do with some damage checks between mob and player.
True for most WSes.

Definitely not true for Spirit Taker.

STR+1 raises your base damage by 0.25.

INT+1 or MND+1 raises your base damage by (0.83 * 0.5) = 0.415 (about 5/12).

Therefore, INT/MND+3 = STR+5 for Spirit Taker.

(Basically, any WS where there's a stat mod over 30% and no STR mod benefits more from that stat than it does from STR. Since most melee jobs' WSes have STR mods, this leads to the "STR > other mods" rule.)
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#21 Jul 30 2009 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Staff: Martial / Fay / Bahamut / Mekki Shakki
Strap: Pole (2% Double Attack)
Head: Unable to Equip Head armor
*Non Ixion Cloak: Evoker's Horn +1 (6Int/6Mnd)
*Non Limbus: Zenith Crown (3Int/3Mnd)
*Non Sky: Goliard Chapeau (5Mnd)
*Non Nyzul: Summoner's Horn (3Int)
*Non Dynamis: Evoker's Horn (3Int)
*Non AF: Fail
Neck: Ajari Necklace (6Mnd)
Ears: Brutal/Merman (5% Double Attack/6Att)
Body: Ixion Cloak (13Int/13Mnd)
*Non Ixion: Marduk's Jubbah (12Mnd)
*Non Salvage: Royal Redingote (5Int/5Mnd) (Depending on stats chosen, can beat Marduk/Ixion)
Hands: Marine M Gloves (4Int/4Mnd)
*Non Hume: Marduk's DastanasErrant (6Mnd)
*Non Salvage: Errant Cuffs (5Int)
Rings: Aqua Ringx2 (10Mnd/4Str)
Back: Prism Cape (4Int/4Mnd)
Waist: Penitent's Rope (5Int/5Mnd)
Legs: Jet Seraweels (7Int/7Mnd)
Feet: Marduk's Crackows (10Mnd)
*Non Salvage: Goliard Clogs (4Int/4Mnd)
*Non Nyzul: Errant Pigaches (5Mnd)

Total using all first choices:
59Mnd 33Int 4Str 6Att 7%Double Attack

If this is for solo'ing purposes, you can also have fun with Glittering Ruby if you use Carby, or Ecliptic Growl if you use Fenrir.

Accuracy issues will be dependent on weapon choice, sub job, Store Tp gear, and food choice. Quick Fixes are Tabin Body, Peacock Charm, Life Belt, O hat, Woodsman Rings etc.

This list may be outdated, due to new equipment added in the last few updates I may not know of. Also excludes items that people may have augmented to out perform the above.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 1:17pm by Gerkin
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#22 Jul 30 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Gerkin wrote:
Accuracy issues will be dependent on weapon choice, sub job, Store Tp gear, and food choice. Quick Fixes are Tabin Body, Peacock Charm, Life Belt, O hat, Woodsman Rings etc.

Accuracy is a non-issue. The first hit of weapon skills get an accuracy boost to the point that their capped. Since Spirit Taker is a one-hit WS, the only hit is the first hit

How else do Summoner's with underleveled skills just barely high enough to learn Spirit Taker and geared entirely for INT and MND connect Spirit Takers at an alarming rate?
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#23 Jul 30 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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jlejeune wrote:
Accuracy is a non-issue.

That may be the case with farming Easy Prey, but for those who use the playstyle to a more extreme level, will find that accuracy does come into play.
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#24 Jul 30 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Gerkin wrote:
That may be the case with farming Easy Prey, but for those who use the playstyle to a more extreme level, will find that accuracy does come into play.

I wasn't talking about Easy Prey, either.
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