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#1 Jun 02 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
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I've planned on parsing some, but still seem to suck and can't make it work. Attempted to use DvsParse-1.7.1, but perhaps that is already outdated?

In any case, while my parsing failed, I could at least eye-ball some damage that I had removed filters for. And I got a bit surprised actually.


DRK using the TP<100% damage bonus scythe on Cerb was hitting for just about the same as Fenrir. About 30-50 damage. It really confused me, since I had heard 2 handers were really good on HNM these days.

This was still while we were low manning it and people were logging on. When we actually got a BRD in the group, suddenly the DRKs damage rose to more like 90, leaving my 30-40 fenrir hits in the dust.

So, while I have no proof yet, it seems like it might be possible that avatars are extremely strong with melee against HNM, just that we never see it because of how pumped up melee always are.

Hopefully I'll get the parser to work sometime, and see if I can catch some un-bard moments on HNM to see if it is true or just a random incident. Not that it matters much since melee will have buffs, but at least it would mean that giving pets songs and rolls (maybe food) would solve EVERYTHING for the DD part. Well, everything except the haste difference, unless avatars suddenly can wear haste gear and get haste spell.
#2 Jun 02 2009 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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If they're anything like wyverns, they have medium base damage, but low attack. I notice my wyvern does about half the damage of me with thalassocrat (so, about 150~) on weak junk in CN vs. 30-40ish on merit mobs.

No idea if that's relevant or not, but it's an observation of mine.
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#3 Jun 03 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Mellowy wrote:
DRK using the TP<100% damage bonus scythe on Cerb was hitting for just about the same as Fenrir. About 30-50 damage. It really confused me, since I had heard 2 handers were really good on HNM these days.
He has **** attack, which isn't too uncommon in poorly run HNM fights (no buffs, no Dia III).

Cerberus is a level 85 mob, meaning you're getting 10 levels of level correction on your attacks. If the DRK has say, 450 attack, and for sake of argument, Cerberus has 400 defense, your cRatio will break down as ((450/400) - (.05 * 10)) = .625. So expect nearly all of your non-crits to be less than the base damage of your weapon, though it would be possible to spike it above in a rare instance since the max pDIF would be slightly over 1.000. Criticals should be doing around the 120-140 range I'd guess.

Now say you add Dia III, which lowers defense by about 15%. Now you're looking at Cerberus having about 340 defense (again if that really was his base defense value, I have no idea). Plug the same numbers back into the equation and you have ((450/340) - (.05 * 10)) = .824. About a 32% increase in your cRatio which will translate fairly directly to 32% more damage for that one melee. Which is why your RDMs should always be keeping Dia III up full time on fights like these.

Now since you say adding the BRD raised his damage to about 90, that tells me that his cRatio got fairly close to 1.000, so I'd imagine he might have been getting double minuets, though that's only based on hypothetical data. Minuet x2 on a properly geared BRD should be raising your attack by 114, which (saving space) raises your new cRatio to .91, which is right in line with being doing about 90 damage swings on average.

As for avatars, I'm not sure what to say about it. Even for automatons which have a **** equipment screen, there's very little information shown. I also have great reason to believe that they don't follow the same pDIF functions as normal melee, for the reason that they traditionally are never buffed. They are designed to be able to do adequate damage without the aid of a BRD or COR pet rolls. Of course this is still a problem, as once you add support crew into the picture, the pet's damage quickly becomes overtaken. The numbers don't shock me though. If avatars work anything like automatons do, I would guess Fenrir at 75 would have at least DMG:75 as a melee weapon with good delay, he'll just never get enough attack to make that DoT really shine.
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#4 Jun 03 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
[quote=Mellowy] I also have great reason to believe that they don't follow the same pDIF functions as normal melee, for the reason that they traditionally are never buffed. They are designed to be able to do adequate damage without the aid of a BRD or COR pet rolls.


Would you be willing to elaborate on this more, either here or in PMs?

I've always believed that everything follows the same damage function when it comes to melee attacks, unless there is specific NM properties that are unique (of which I have no specific examples) to that NM.

I'd like to know your reasoning in more detail, if you wouldn't mind.
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#5 Jun 03 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
I've planned on parsing some, but still seem to suck and can't make it work. Attempted to use DvsParse-1.7.1, but perhaps that is already outdated?


I use Direct Parse 2.2.92 so bit more recent than 1.7 hehe. also if you get that and it doesnt work you'll need to set the memloc to

MEMLOC=0x57D7E8
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#6 Jun 03 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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If avatars work anything like automatons do, I would guess Fenrir at 75 would have at least DMG:75 as a melee weapon with good delay, he'll just never get enough attack to make that DoT really shine.


I don't know how damage works, but avatars tend to cap about 100 below carrie on really weak mobs. Does it give any indication on how much lower the base damage is?
#7 Jun 03 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
Well, Fenrirs att/acc buff affects fenrir does it not? I always see the message, but i have no factual evidence to prove it. Only that i have seen his att go up when the buff is on. But really, there is no comparison to having buffs that stack from multiple jobs.

This is just another place where SE failed SMN. The least they could do, is let pets get buffs from another player. Then, maybe we would keep them out more.
#8 Jun 03 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Tenfooterten wrote:
Well, Fenrirs att/acc buff affects fenrir does it not? I always see the message, but i have no factual evidence to prove it. Only that i have seen his att go up when the buff is on. But really, there is no comparison to having buffs that stack from multiple jobs.

This is just another place where SE failed SMN. The least they could do, is let pets get buffs from another player. Then, maybe we would keep them out more.
It's acc/eva, not acc/attk. Unless you mean indirectly mean Ecliptic Growl, and I hope you don't...

Acturus wrote:
bsphil wrote:
I also have great reason to believe that they don't follow the same pDIF functions as normal melee, for the reason that they traditionally are never buffed. They are designed to be able to do adequate damage without the aid of a BRD or COR pet rolls.


Would you be willing to elaborate on this more, either here or in PMs?

I've always believed that everything follows the same damage function when it comes to melee attacks, unless there is specific NM properties that are unique (of which I have no specific examples) to that NM.

I'd like to know your reasoning in more detail, if you wouldn't mind.
This is for Automatons specifically. I've also noticed it occuring with wyverns and pets, but summons I have no experiences/data of my own to back that sort of claim.

It's most obvious when you are fighting something like an EM steelshell that uses scissor guard. For the master, your cRatio will take an enormous dive, and you'll be struggling to hit above single digits without buffs. The automaton however, will only suffer a small hit to it's DoT, even without attack based attachments or fire maneuvers. The problem associated with this is that you risk losing hate to your automaton, which helps make the problem even more drastically noticeable.

If you think about it, soulsoother only has 240 melee skill with full merits, so 240 attack. 67 STR is another 33 attack. Full optimization is +25% attack, so you should expect it to have about 351 attack total. Not much more than a decently geared PUP without buffs. I'm not really sure what to make of it. Doesn't really help that pet stats are even more ambiguous when player stats are bad enough. The same thing applies to higher level targets like kirin, jailers, etc. It's remarkably hard for valoredge to hit for single digits on nearly ANY target, and that's with no buffs.

It could be that it just naturally has very high base damage (maybe 120-150 DMG weapon for VE at 75 and 360 delay, but not enough attack to exploit 20-25 DPS) that is skewing my perception of damage at low cRatio values. That doesn't quite seem to fit accurately though, as you would imagine your damage per hit would take a more significant decrease than it appears to. If I find some time tonight I'll tackle some level -1 bunnies on PUP75 and attempt to break down what VE's base DMG is at 75. It's one of many things I've meant to do, but haven't had the time for lately.





tl;dr: You can follow changes in damage via changes in attack or target defense for PCs quite easily with a basic understanding of cRatio and pDIF. That doesn't seem as applicable for automatons/wyverns/pets as it should be. Avatars I'm simply unsure of; I'm not a SMN.

Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
If avatars work anything like automatons do, I would guess Fenrir at 75 would have at least DMG:75 as a melee weapon with good delay, he'll just never get enough attack to make that DoT really shine.


I don't know how damage works, but avatars tend to cap about 100 below carrie on really weak mobs. Does it give any indication on how much lower the base damage is?
A while back I remember someone mentioning Avatar melee damage being nerfed on TW mobs. Is this true? If so, what was melee damage like before the change? I'm under the impression that this didn't apply to BPs, which is why I've seen SMNs crank out several thousand damage BPs on TW mobs with ease.





Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 7:32pm by bsphil
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#9 Jun 04 2009 at 3:27 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
A while back I remember someone mentioning Avatar melee damage being nerfed on TW mobs. Is this true? If so, what was melee damage like before the change? I'm under the impression that this didn't apply to BPs, which is why I've seen SMNs crank out several thousand damage BPs on TW mobs with ease.


I just know it happened before I was of any significant level. (Must have been like 30-40). And from what I heard it was just physical pacts that were weakened because SE didn't want SMNs to one shot too weak mobs.

Not that I see the harm in killing something weak better than other jobs. Only helps on NMs or farming anyway.
#10 Jun 04 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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So was base damage lowered then entirely? Just affected physical BPs but not melee? Does that nerf disappear as you fight EM+ stuff?

I don't particularly see the point in nerfing something like this, it's not like it costs less MP to obliterate a TW mob. I don't know enough about it though so I'm struggling to put together the pieces on what happened.



Edited, Jun 4th 2009 10:47am by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
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#11 Jun 04 2009 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Mellow is right, it was done specifically because the 70 pacts were able to 1-shot too weak monsters. Initially I remember my pacts doing more on EP than TW but now they seem to have more or less fixed that.
#12 Jun 05 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Someone once told me that pets (such as charmed monsters) don't suffer level correction penalties like we do, but I don't know how valid that claim is.

I do believe that would probably explain the difference though, but something like that is hard to show I'd imagine.

I had a lesser colibri (level 63-65) hitting Dea (Tier 3 ZNM Wivre, much higher level) pretty consistently for ~45-50 damage a hit I believe. Considering Dea is most likely at least level 80 that's kind of a big level difference.

Also in regards to that, Flamingos perform decently on gods in sky...

Anyone else ever hear anything about level correction and pets?
#13 Jun 05 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Annalise wrote:
Someone once told me that pets (such as charmed monsters) don't suffer level correction penalties like we do, but I don't know how valid that claim is.
I don't think so, because my original example was on EM steelshells. You don't get any level correction on EM or less, so that should've been a non-issue.
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Almalieque wrote:
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#14 Jun 05 2009 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Still haven't had a good time to parse (queue regular whining about how nobody ever wants a SMN for anything on Phoenix server), but I did meripo some on my COR with filters off and noticed melee are less overpowered than expected.

SAM and WAR party members doing about 800-1.2k WSes, while I was hoovering around 700 on COR. I really expected those "super DDs" to be a bit further away from my COR's slugshots. We were doing mamools, but since both I and them were on the same mobs, it shouldn't matter too much.

The big difference of course is when they are hitting for 80-130 per swing, while I'm m.kris-ing away for 8 damage per swing. Kind of made me feel sorry for them. Their WS is just like a combined 5 attacks, while mine is like 100 combined attacks. It feels so much more rewarding on my end to WS and get a huge spike, than it seems to be for them.

Was double marching for TP burn though, so I bet stacking minuets instead would make a larger difference on WSes if you went all out power. I'm pretty sure they were eating food, but not sure if they were chicken like me and ate sushi or if they ate meat.

Fun eyeballing anyway. I feel much less gimp on SMN now that I know I'd do roughly the same damage on mamool as a SAM or WAR, just whiff more often and be generally slower.
#15 Jun 06 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
Fun eyeballing anyway. I feel much less gimp on SMN now that I know I'd do roughly the same damage on mamool as a SAM or WAR, just whiff more often and be generally slower.
It was never how much, only how fast.
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#16 Jun 07 2009 at 4:14 AM Rating: Default
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jlejeune wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Fun eyeballing anyway. I feel much less gimp on SMN now that I know I'd do roughly the same damage on mamool as a SAM or WAR, just whiff more often and be generally slower.
It was never how much, only how fast.


Well, not to mention names (Acturus!), some keep insisting upping the damage is the most important part with the job. While not completely wrong, I think you are more right about speed being the real issue. (And potency on wards)
#17 Jun 07 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Mellowy wrote:
Well, not to mention names (Acturus!), some keep insisting upping the damage is the most important part with the job.
Close. The only answer is damage over time. Whether that's in strong, separated bursts or constantly in small doses, DoT is always the most important factor
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#18 Jun 09 2009 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
jlejeune wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Fun eyeballing anyway. I feel much less gimp on SMN now that I know I'd do roughly the same damage on mamool as a SAM or WAR, just whiff more often and be generally slower.
It was never how much, only how fast.


Well, not to mention names (Acturus!), some keep insisting upping the damage is the most important part with the job. While not completely wrong, I think you are more right about speed being the real issue. (And potency on wards)


Myopia doesn't become you, Mellowy. You conveniently have forgetten that I leveled MNK. I've lived and breathed DoT since before you started complaining about how unfair it was to be a SMN at 75.

The goal I want is an over all DoT increase, which was birthed by wanting an Accuracy and Attack increase incrementally as the Summoner levels (in mirror of the existing T1 merits), and has become a much more robust Avatar Affinity trait that encompasses an accuracy/M.Acc., attack/M.Att., and delay modification.

I don't think that "upping the damage is the most important part with the job." I think a better return for my investment in Perpetuation Cost is the last necessary piece in rounding out today's Summoner.

I don't care if you channel your stupidity at me, Mellowy, just make sure you're not misquoting me.
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#19 Jun 09 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think so, because my original example was on EM steelshells. You don't get any level correction on EM or less, so that should've been a non-issue.


I was referring to the OP and fenrir hitting Cerberus for the same as the DRK
#20 Jun 09 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
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Acturus wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
jlejeune wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Fun eyeballing anyway. I feel much less gimp on SMN now that I know I'd do roughly the same damage on mamool as a SAM or WAR, just whiff more often and be generally slower.
It was never how much, only how fast.


Well, not to mention names (Acturus!), some keep insisting upping the damage is the most important part with the job. While not completely wrong, I think you are more right about speed being the real issue. (And potency on wards)


Myopia doesn't become you, Mellowy. You conveniently have forgetten that I leveled MNK. I've lived and breathed DoT since before you started complaining about how unfair it was to be a SMN at 75.

The goal I want is an over all DoT increase, which was birthed by wanting an Accuracy and Attack increase incrementally as the Summoner levels (in mirror of the existing T1 merits), and has become a much more robust Avatar Affinity trait that encompasses an accuracy/M.Acc., attack/M.Att., and delay modification.

I don't think that "upping the damage is the most important part with the job." I think a better return for my investment in Perpetuation Cost is the last necessary piece in rounding out today's Summoner.

I don't care if you channel your stupidity at me, Mellowy, just make sure you're not misquoting me.


Selective memories you know. I actually firmly remember the day I told you that delay reduction or haste on pets were vastly more important than damage increase and accuracy. I'd like to think of myself as the person who channeled enough stupidity into you to evolve your idea into including delay modification.

I also remember telling you that I too leveled MNK, I guess I just forgot about it since it didn't add anything to the discussion.

Something I do remember clearly though, is that the quote actually wasn't referring to you, but other people. I just threw in your name as a joke to provoke you into some good comeback.

I know, it is pretty annoying when people claim you say something when you really don't. Almost impossible not to reply. I'm sorry but I was tired and felt like teasing you. I hope you can forgive me.
#21 Jun 10 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I thought it was figured out that mobs have high damage weapon ratings and that is why it isn't that useful to pack on defense and vit. Because the decrease in damage isn't worth it when you can stack on attack and str and destroy the mob much faster.
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